Kaljug

There's a post by someone using the moniker ISDhillon on SikhSangat.com about his experiences at the dera here (6th post down):

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=16834&hl=

Neo Singh,

I agree with you. One needs a particular skill set to deal with such issues, and there are few Gursikhs who have that kind of knowledge. I would rather have a Sikh who is honestly afflicted with such problems visit the Baba Vadbhag Singh dera rather than some Tantrik/Baba/Pir for a cure as, from what I have been told, the patient is sent back to Sri Guru Granth Sahib afterwards and is not made to become completely dependent on any person in the dera (including Baba Vadbhag Singh, who is seen as a chela of the Gurus).

K.

Fateh!

I believe the best cure for this kind of malady is to take amrit, read bani and to do immense bhagti. In such a case, this possession, spiritual attack, or whatever it is, becomes a blessing in disguise and one becomes free of any reliance on intermediaries. But not everyone has that kind of desire or ability, and I imagine this dera is recognition of that fact.

Incidentally, has anyone from the UK, US or Canada ever gone there? I wonder why it is that things like black magic or spirit possession seem commonplace in India, but rarely seem to occur in Sangat in the West.

K.

Interesting documentary on this very misunderstood Gursikh and the current practices at his dera:

Part 1:

Part 2:

Part 3:

Part 4:

Part 5:

Part 6:

The people who go there are either attention-seeking actors, mentally ill or actually possessed. Whatever the case may be, some of them at least go away feeling cured of their affliction.

Regards,

K.

this whole forum http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/sikh/TKDLABC22RF5NUSMK

is full of soooo much anti Sikh comments even past that thread, why are so many people so hostile to Sikhs.

Because most of the people there are Mirpuri Pakistani Muslims who live off state benefits in the UK. Their hate is a result of a combination of inbreeding and Islam.

K.

Silence, as far as I'm aware the current Indian government led by Manmohan Singh does not have anything to do with the Tamils rebels or the Sinhalese government of Sri Lanka. Manmohan Singh has actually asked for the Sri Lankan government to look after the safety of the Tamal civilians. What many people don't know is, it is Pakistan which is not only training but also providing weapons to the Sinhalese government in combating the Tamil Tigers. How do you think the Tigers are losing ground all of a sudden? It is Pakistan's involvement not India's that the Tamals need to feel angry towards. Pakistan is circling India with countries such as Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and now even Nepal.

Do you have any evidence for this?

K.

Sant Jagjit SIngh Ji and other Mahapursh all believe in the gurgaddi being given to Sri Guru GRanth Sahib Ji. To be honest most sants are interested in the internal quest and the assistance they can provide to jagiasoo's on an adhiyatmik level.

Sants like all gurmukhs accept that all is in the will of the Lord and the Lord is the one doing everything including creating jathebandis like the namdharis. It is all in the will of god. If God creates them then it is up to the lord to nourish, sustain and eventually destroy. this is the case with every faith, human being and creation of the Lord.

If god did not wish for it, then it would not exists. We get involved in petty squabbles due to being entangled in the web of maya. Worry about your own spiritual enlightenment rather then worry about issues that do not assist it.

I think personally as sikhs we should look at the sanatan faith where you geth shivites, vaishnaves, smartas, etc and look at how they all worry about their own spiritually well being rather then insulting, ruidiculing and harassing other groups who do not have the same spiritual thoughts and background as them.

Fateh!

Surely the same thing can be said of the Ram Raiyas, Dhir Malias etc - that they were created by the Lord's will. Actually, the same thing can be said of any situation, it doesn't really provide any useful answers.

It was still Guru Ji's hukam that Sikhs have nothing to do with these groups because they tried to claim the Gurgaddi for themselves, and I wonder why some believe that the same does not apply to the Namdharis who make the same claims.

From a personal point of view, I can't imagine anything worse happening to Sikhi than it turning into another version of Hinduism where the philosophies are so widely divergent that it is possible to be called a Hindu yet believe in exactly the opposite things of another Hindu.

I too would like to see the traditional Sikh Sampardas to be accepted again into the Sikh fold by the whole of the Sikh Panth.

Regards,

K.

kaljug most sants have a good relationship with the namdharis, sant jagjit singh ji actually did katha at bheni sahib while i was in india to the namdhari sangat. they and sant davinder singh ji do this quite often

That's interesting.

What does Sant Jagjit Singh think of Namdhari claims of that their gurus were given Gurgaddi and not Sri Guru Granth Sahib? Has he commented on this issue or does he ignore this and concentrate on the similarities?

What do you think differentiates Naamdharis from those groups among the Panj Mel with whom a Sikh is forbidden to associate because they tried to claim the Gurgaddi for themselves?

Regards,

K.

Fateh jio!

Does anyone know whether the Sants and Mahapurush of the traditional Sikh sampardas have contact with the current living Namdhari guru? Has anyone like Sant Jagjit Singh Harkhowale met with him or commented on their guru?

Also, does anyone know if the Namdharis expect the guru lineage to come to an end after a certain number of human gurus, or do they fully expect the lineage to continue forever?

Regards,

K.

Fateh, Veer ji!

You make some good points.

The naamdhari's talk was excellent - knowledgeable, inspiring and in absolute accord with Sikhi. It was very honourable of him to change his dress and use the traditional Khalsa greeting at the request of the producers.

Indeed, the naamdharis have retained many wonderful puratan Sikh traditions alive such as Gurmat sangeet with traditional instruments, they have a deep knowledge of raag, and they still practice the tradition of reciting Chandi bani as part of their nitnem.

But the fact remains that in rejecting the Gurgaddi of Ad Sri Guru Granth Sahib in favour of their dehdari guru, they are no different to the Minas, Dhir Malias and the Ram Raiyas who are anathema to Sikhs.

K.

is 'Thandav Stotra' same as THANDAV NACH? That which ShivJi does to bring about destruction in the Universe.

Also is THANDAV NAACH a technical dance form in the same vein as Kathak, Bharatnatyam etc or something exclusive to the spiritual world?

Fateh.

Tandava is a form of dance. I know it's quite popular in South India where it is danced mainly by women worshippers of Shiva, though it is a pretty vigorous and requires a lot of energy. There are supposedly many forms of thandava though, not all of them violent and aggressive. Some of the moves from the more violent forms of tandava, like rudra tandava, have martial applications.

Meenakshi Sheshadree dancing Tandav:

Shiva Tandav:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDBsfqc5yds&feature=related

Stotra is just the name of a form of hymn in praise of a particular Devi or Devata.

K.

I like this video better

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fsQbsSMeFV4

My kind of girl. There's something about the blue skin and the fact she can chatka badasses without batting an eyelash.

K.

Fateh Ji.

Is this an English translation or is it the original text in Gurmukhi script?

To the author (or translator): where did you learn Braj? Are there books or websites that you can recommend, or did you pick up the languages directly from the Nirmalay with whom you studied?

I am looking forward to reading the book.

Warm regards,

K.

Thank you very much. I have read some of the links above and the one from the EU website and the one given by tony are quite useful.

I have had a lot of discussions with people from Hizb ut tahrir and most of my friends are muslims so i will not fall into the pit hole of generalising.

Just so you know, Hizb ut-Tahrir is banned as a terrorist organisation in most countries, though they seem to operate in the UK without much trouble from British authorities. This despite the fact that they want a return to the Caliphate, meaning that all Muslims answer to the Caliph and are not bound by the laws of their countries. Among their declared aims is the complete abandonment of international law and the enforcement of Sharia law on every living person. And of course, they want the destruction of Israel.

K.

One other thing Amardeep, most of the above is most likely rooted in Wahabism.

Fateh, Veer ji!

Wahabism/Salafism is a pretty recent creation (18th century). Even Muhammad ibn 'Abd Al-Wahhab Al-Tamimi didn't consider himself the originator of a new school of Islamic philosophy, he simply purged Islam of traditions like Saint worship that he considered modern innovations and wanted to return to a form of Islam that was a close as possible to the Islam practised in the time following the first several decades after the death of Muhammad. His beliefs are just a continuation and a simplification of the Hanbali school of Sharia of which he was a scholar.

The same ideas can be traced all the way back to the beginnings of Islam. Bostom's book in particular reveals that the tenets that al-Wahhab most closely identified himself with are to be found in the earliest texts of the 4 Sunni schools of Islamic jurisprudence to the most recent. The schools of Shia jurisprudence do not differ in the essential belief that Islam is to be propagated by any means neccesary until the whole world is under the rule of Islam.

As a pretty obvious example of an earlier time in Islamic history when the same ideals were followed, consider that the Mughals did not have to wait for al-Wahhab to start their campaign of forceful conversions and they did not need al-Wahhab to tell them that martyring Guru Arjan and Guru Tegh Bahadur for not converting to Islam was mandated by Sharia law and the actions of Muhammad.

Regards

K.

Fateh Jio!

I am Kaljug, and I shall be entertaining you for the next 432,000 years.

K.

Fateh!

Tonyhp is right, at the end of the day, if terrorism was not mandated by the Quran and the example of Muhammad as recorded in the Hadith, the problem would not exist. See Andrew G Bostom's The Legacy of Jihad which discusses the sources that justify the separation of the world into Dar al-Islam (the House of Islam, all countries subjugated by Muslims and run according to Sharia law) and Dar al-Harb (the House of War, those countries that have yet to be conquered in the name of Islam).

Read Ed Husain's The Islamist if you want a former Islamic extremist's reasons for his radicalisation and eventual abandonment of these ideals.

Do some research on the political organisation called the The Muslim Brotherhood as it is most responsible for spreading the ideology of Islamic terrorism in the last several decades, both in the West and in Arab countries. The intellectual leader of the movement was Sayyid Qutb and his books Milestones and In The Shade of the Quran describe the modern day rewriting of the age-old Islamic ideal of conquering the world for Allah.

Watch two documentaries, Undercover Mosque and it's sequel (you can watch both on Google video), which document the rise and spread of the Wahabi form of Islam in UK mosques. The Imams who preach this form of Islam are supported and sponsored by the Saudi authorities. British authorities are, I believe, aware of this link but are too afraid of losing the economic and financial advantages of being on the good side of these oil-rich sheikhs.

You may want to contact Maryam Namazie, founder of the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain, to get the story first hand from former Muslims who have been able to see through to the fascist ideology of Arab imperialism inherent in Islam and how it has spread, disguised as a religion. See here for her blog and contact details:

http://maryamnamazie.blogspot.com/

Or you could just do the politically correct thing and blame it on Israel.

Regards,

K.