Ishraqi

Kaljug wrote:

Moses, on the other hand, witnessed the murder of every first born child in Egypt at the hands of the God he worshipped. Which act is more evil?

You lie. Adonai didn't kill Gershom at all. The passage you refer to is extremely ambiguous and uses pronouns when the text says that the angel of the Lord went to slay "him". Zephora then cricumcises "him". But "he" was not killed. But neither Gershom nor Eliazar, Moses' son were killed by Adonai.

You are what we call a nasibi, a persecutor of prophets, who hates God's messengers. You beliefs are the roots of Hitler's antisemitism and modern Islamophobia. You openly embrasse evil.

N3O wrote:

(Raj karega khalsa akai rahi no koi couplet) Khalsa Raj is open to interpretation based on individual surti. For me khalsa raj at this day and age would be every khalsa regardless where they are living is sovereign/chakarvarti. And who is khalsa? For me based on my understanding of gurbani- khalsa = bhramgyani regardless of any matt from spiritual context but from socio-religious context - khalsa raj either could be interperted as every sikh regardless where they live is sovereign.

This is becoming interesting discussion, which leads me to beg to question- what kind of laws/legal system maharaja ranjit singh sherai punjab followed?

Indeed the notion of Khalsa Raj is open to interpretation. Many people like you see Khalsa Raj more like a "kingdom of conscience", a sort of global state of spiritual awareness that would prevale in society. It's an interesting concept. On the other hand when Sikhs did have political power under Ranjit Singh they pretty much kept Mughal Shahi administration and laws with aspects of shastric law for personal matters. The Sudharm marg granth for example lays more emphacis on the shastric aspect of kingship but doesn't adress the issue of the legal system which seems to be at the discretion of thr ruler. It seems that Sikhs have basically taken the existing legal system and adapted it to their needs and concepts. Wether this is Khalsa Raj is another question. But indeed this is an interesting conversation quite different from the filthy comments by Kaljug and his crowlean heresy.

Kaljug wrote:

Your link offers no proof for your claim that the biography is not true. I am not interested in reading the account of a girl who has been nrought up on the legends of her grandfather.

The burden of validity is on you I am afraid. You're the one claiming things about Imam Khomeini (ra) using Saudi sources. There are enough serious books written by people who don't support Khomeini who say exactly the same as I do. The accounts of his wife and family are enough proof that you're a liar and the follower of a liar i.e. Crowley the Satanist. Following your argument I should assume than anyone but yourself knows more about your grandfather than you then. Great argument indeed.

I have a problem with some Muslim male engaging in temporary marriage with some woman with whom he wants to sleep to give religious sanction to his lust. Especially given the fact that these are the same people who are so fond of accusing Western women of being sexually promiscuous.

Who tells you that sighe is just about sex. Many couples just do sighe in order to meet up and go out because you can only go out with a mehram. What else they do in their private life is none of your business. In the eyes of the law and God they are married. If you have a problem with people's private life take some Primrose Oil for your period pains! As for "Western promiscuity", the Catholic Church condemns it as much as Islam does. There is nothing European about promiscuity, it's just an aspect of global consumer culture. Sex outside mariage is a sin, except for Crowley and his awlad-e haram disciples like you.

May Shaitan-Aiwass wink.gif show you the truth,

May God guard me from your Shaytan Bagwas, your lies and your heresy.

N30 wrote:

I think answer is simple. Tat Sidhant of Sikhism starts from tariqat not shariat. Sikhi put less importance on shariat aspect because of it mystic nature just like sufism, advaita.

I am ok with your reply but what your reply implies is the impossibility of a Khalsa Raj because of the absence of a legal system. Again I have not saying this is bad. I am just being consequent based on your replies.

Kaljug

the risalah you mentionned is a theoretical case illustrating a problem of jurisprudence. The problem is this one: In cases where a father gives his daughter away in marriage before she reaches nine what rights does her husband have. Again this is a theoretical case and Imam Khomeini (ra) just gave his opinion. In this case we have two conflicting issues. The first one if the husband's right and the other one is the girl's right to bodily integrity. Some ulema argue that the husband has to wait until she is baligh (ie. attained sexual maturity) in order to have intercourse. Imam Khomeini (ra) argues that intercourse is not the only form of sexual activity and that as long as the girl's bodily integrity is not at risk such acts are ok. I personally would have included mental integrity as part of the discussion and would have come to a different conclusion.

Now regarding such fatwas which are just opinions not laws, you need to remember that there is a difference between jurisprudence and ethics. Something may be legal licit but ethically bad. For example: divorce is legally allowed but highly disincouraged from an ethical point of view. This ruling by Imam Khomeini (ra) is his way of solving a problem of jurisprudence. It doesn't mean that this is what he himself believed to be right.

The late Imam (ra) put great emphasis on the dignity of women and their rights in terms of studying and the work place. His respect for women was tremendous. The biography you mention is a Saudi work created to defame him. I personally know people who have been close to him and what you're saying about him are lies!

His grand daughter is probably more qualified that you to talk about him:

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=85179...ctionid=3510302

The biography you mentionned is a Saudi lie. Interesting how you and others like you love quoting Wahabis.

As for sighe being prostitution: in your eyes a woman who enters a sighe with her fiancée before they get married is a whore? I guess you're among the people who are against seeing their spouse before marriage then. Your choice.

May Allah (swt) guide you.

amardeep wrote:

you take them to the akal thakht in the sikh raj and they will give you some punishment for the deed.

Supposing that it would happen on which legal principles would such a judgement be based? If there is no legal system to start with how can you take someone to court for a crime for which there is no legal reference? How is a citizen suppose to live without a legal system?

I am not implying that Sikhism doesn't have an ethical code.Far from it. But an ethical code doesn't equal a legal system and a penal code. Any legal decision that is not based upon legal principles is de facto arbitrary and contrary to the idea of the idea of rule of law. Unless of course the legal system used would be a modified version of the Dharmashastras. But then again the Dharmashatras do not recognize rape as a legal category.

N3O wrote:

May be others can enlighten, but does any know of any rehitnamas talks about punishment of wrong doing such as murder/rape?. I would doubt it as eastern dharams believe in karam philosophy. Ape Beej aape hee khaah ( what you sow you reap). I don't think its wise to compare eastern philosophy and western philosophy because of core differences.

Nevertheless, one should not condemn code of conducts of other dharam as they are for a reason to be a better human being, god leaving/fearing person.

This thread is moderated closely. If at any given we feel this is going in circles which is bound to happen in this thread, it will be closed/locked.

Dear N3O I think you need to make a clear distinction between philosophy-theology, ethics and then law. We are here discussing law and jurisprudence and about the issue of a certain crime and the punishment for it.

As for the issue of the crime of rape, the Indian traditional law systems have no punishment for it. There is punishment for adultery though in the Manusmriti:

“If a non-Brahmin commits an adultery, he is punished by death penalty. ... if a Shudra man

has sex with a Brahmin woman who is unprotected by her husband etc., his penis should be cut and all

his property should be confiscated. If he has sex with a protected Brahmin woman, all his property

should first be confiscated and then he be given death penalty. ... If a Kshatriya or Vaishya man has

sex with a protected Brahmin woman, he should be punished like a Shudra man or should be burnt

alive in a grass pyre. ... If a Brahmin man rapes a protected Brahmin woman, he should be fined one

thousand coins. If he commits adultery with her, with her consent, he should be fined five hundred

coins. ... For whatever sin committed by him, a Brahmin man should never be put to death. Keeping

his body unharmed, he should be driven out of the kingdom along with all his wealth.”

But the notion of rape is non-existent which means there is no punishment for it.The rahitnameh don't mention any punishment for rape.

Kaljug wrote:

Fateh!

Great smear tactic. Just accuse the sources that I showed you that provide evidence contrary to your beliefs as racist or evil Wahabism.

Iran's Penal Code Sanctions rape:

http://seektruthandjustice.blogspot.com/20...tions-rape.html

And by the by, in Iran girls over the age of 9 and boys over the age of 16 can face the death penalty in Iran for charges like rape and murder. How, pray tell, does one determine whether a 9 year old girl consented to sex?

Ayatollah Khomeini's fling with a 4 year old child:

http://ibloga.blogspot.com/2007/01/ayatoll...-with-four.html

Selections from the Ayatollah's writings on temporary marriages (Siqeh) and child marriages:

http://iranpoliticsclub.net/islam/khomeini-sex/index.htm

Not only does your spiritual leader advocate temporary marriages (from 30 minutes to 99 years according to some sources) but he believes that sodomising children is acceptable accodring to Islamic law. What need for rape if prostitution and paedophilia is all fine and dandy in Iran?

Regards,

K.

Instead of quoting second hand sources why not go straight to real sources.

Here is the article of the penal code regarding rape:

Article 82. The penalty for adultery in the following cases shall be death, regardless of the age or marital status of the culprit: (1) Adultery with one's consanguineous relatives (close blood relatives forbidden to each other by religious law); (2) Adultery with one's stepmother in which the adulterer's punishment shall be death; (3) Adultery between a non-Muslim man and a Muslim woman, in which case the adulterer (non-Muslim man) shall receive the death penalty; (4) Forcible rape, in which case the rapist shall receive the death penalty.

What you site forgets to mention is that physical proof of rape like DNA tests serves as witness evidence as well.

As for the age of marriage in Iran the minimal age has been set to 9 (it was 13 before).Such marriages are extremely rare and even so most marriage contracts of that kind would entail a section stating that sexual intercourse is only permissible after puberty. Nice try Kaljug. Most Iranians marry in their late 20s.

The reason why Imam Khomeini (ra) favoured early marriage is so as to avoid temptations when the couple reach puberty. It doesn't mean that they're going to have sex at the age of nine.Rather then young couple is to grow up in mutual love.

Btw if you actually read the original risalah you'll see that sodomy is not mentionned at all.

As for your slanderous accusations against our beloved leader (ra), quoting Wahabi Saudi sources means as much to me as you quoting your sister on the matter.

Sighe is an institution in Islam. If you view it as prostitution that is your choice. It's a marriage sanctionned by law with its rights and obligations.

I find it amazing that you should get on your moral high horse when at the same time you sing the praises of Crowley.

A nice sample of anti-Islamic and taghooti literature. And as expected the first author mentionned, Ahreeman X, bears the name of Satan in the Zoroastrian tradition. admin cut. It's pretty interesting that the "Online Persian library" doesn't contain Rumi, Hafez, Ruzbihan Baqli, Tusi, Khosrau, Firdawsi, Saadi etc the classics!

What an utter and complete joke!

HSD wrote:

yeah the 'death sentence'! well done, islam must be great if thats what they come up with. gurbani does not need to instruct us on most matters of law as we were not as lawless as the people in mohammed's time.

If a Sikh rapes a woman, what punishment does Sikh law propose? Care to provide the sources.Thank you.

HSD wrote:

nice way of deflecting the issue of certain islamic preachers views on women in a western society. also, i have seen hardly any mention of 'white supremacist' sources, just ones watchful of the actions of muslims. you can blame 50 cent, the low standing of muslims on the social ladder etc but it doesnt confuse the fact that 'rape' has different meanings in different cultures. some try to stop it, others just wash their hands and blame others.

The punishment for rape in Islam is death. If some Pakis who come to the UK confuse their village mentality with Islam, it's the village mentality you should blame. Go to rural Sicily and you'll find the same village mentality. So again, Islam's sentence for rape is death.What is Sikhism's punishment for rape? Give me one clear scriptural passage with the word rape mentionned in it.Thank you.

Tonyhp32 wrote:

One has to consider why these problems don't occur in other communities who also migrated here under similar circumstances. Could it be that the religious leaders of non-Muslim communities don't keep harping on about the way women dress and referring to those women who do not dress modestly as being whores.

Interesting point. I remember, when I worked on some murder cases in the Asian community with the police in the UK, that violence against women was mostly culturally motivated and was found to take place in equal measire in non-Muslim communities as well.So I think the real point is mass immigration of uneducated populations who are unable to integrate socially and culturaly. They have replaced the proletariat in terms of social exclusion and replicate the same type of behaviour. Add to this that most youngsters in these diasporas have become clones of 50 cent and consume music that considers women to whores in general, it just makes the already existing male chauvinism already worse. As for non-Muslim communities and female dress code, Tonyhp32 seems to forget that the Catholic church has quite conservative views on the matter and surprise surprise, the veil is appearing again in Catholic and Orthodox churches. Even in France there is a growing number of women who refuse to conform to feminist ideals and have made a conscious choice to dress modestly. Had Tonyhp32 followed what Salafi terrorists actually do, he'd find out that in Algeria in the 90s they raped hundreds of hijabi girls. There is no justification for rape in Islam, whatever dress a lady may be wearing. If people of a certain diaspora are going to use white supremacist literature to paint immigrant rape as religiously motivated, they should be consistent with the whole white supremacist discourse and leave the Western countries they inhabit because to a white supremacist "they're all the same".

I am not surprised. Niddarists have always had a fascination for Crowley and Satanism.The scum of the earth.

Kaljug,

So how do you explain that in Iran men guilty of rape get executed? You think posting some Wahabi videos and Scandinavian racist sites is an argument. Agreed, there is a lot of Wahabi scum in Europe that should be at best deported if not even executed. But all you've done is show "Muslims" who are ALL paid by Saudi Arabia and use their corrupted Sunni sources to back their crimes.

Fact remains: rape is a crime and is punished by death according to Islam, the real Islam of Ahlul Bayt (as) that is. Only two years ago three men were executed for rape in Iran: http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Iran-hang...2300859265.html

So how the hell do you want to convince me that Islam allows rape? Had you written that Wahabis and Sunnis allow rape you would have been right. So in the future try to be more accurate.

Xylitol wrote:

I don't have a problem with any quom. I do have a problem with extremists of any religion who target people simply b/c they are of another religion. awareness of what is happening is important.

Islam condemns rape and the punishment for it is death. These migrants who rape girls are nothing but criminals. 100 years ago you had the same situation with the urban proletariat. I don't think giving this serious problem a racial or religious dimension is going to solve this issue.The issue is rather that these migrants be they from the Middle East, Indo-Pak or Africa have the idea that white girls are sluts because of their consumption of porn and decadent movies. There is a social dimension in it as well, a sort of perverted revenge of the underdog which already existed in 19th century literature before this immigration business. The other obsenity is also the use of these women's suffering for dubious political purposes.

Kaljug wrote:

Muito boa. Still not as good as the real thing though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmkpDZV9t84...feature=related

K.

Naturalmente. Concordo nao ha comparaçao.

What an idiot. He should have gone out with the priest's daughter. That would have been funnier.More drama

Dalsingh101 wrote:

Flippin hell Ishraqi. Have you got a good word for anyone?

I actually have. Here are a few examples:

Malcolm X: born in most humble and difficult conditions he raised himself above that condition by his own efforts by educating himself, learning philosophy, Latin etc in prison. Instead of describing the darkness he was born in he raised himself above it. He gave his life for justice and truth and he remains the best thing that ever happened to the Afro American community.

Natalie Dessay: my favourite opera singer. She has the most perfect interpretation of the Duo des Fleures from Delibes' opera Lakmé. Simply amazing voice: http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/searc...desfleurs_music makes you realize how wonderful life can be.

And of course Ana Moura:

There is a lot of beautiful thing I love and it's because of that love for Beauty that I loathe modern youth culture which has only one aim: to degrade the human being to the level on a bestial slave.

Mithar wrote:

I think he is against youth popculture of all ethnic communities.

I am indeed against moder youth culture and even more so in ethnic communities who often come from regions of the world where people have some good values. Having been in many Panjabi homes I was always amazed by the contrast between the decent behaviour of the parents (not always though) compared to their kids. I find it sad that people whose parents come from a region of the world where values like honour, chastity, tolerance etc exist, become totally corrupted by this trash bhangra culture and the adoption of mainstream youth culture. It's deeply saddening to see people praise that trash bhangra culture as being part of their "cultural heritage" whereas there is so much more to Panjabi culture than that whole kanjar business. You can call me strict but in my view of the world one cannot remain a religious person while dancing to songs praising sharab etc it just doesn't work. And I am even more ashamed by the fact that I myself used to dance to these songs before. May God forgive me for that.

I know I sound harsh but like a good father would say:"You only see the slaps, you don't see the love that is in them"

dalsingh101 wrote:

How are they a joke say compared to the Latino community?

I forgot to add that the Latino youth is a disgrace too with their own adoption of rap, gansta culture and the whole papi chulo culture.

Jsingh96 and Xylitol since when have songs brought about a revolution or changed anything for that matter? A vehicle for independant thought? Please let me laugh!

How is buying a record published by one of the major media corporations a revolutionary act? Supposing that there is some good content about it: do the records teach how thes elyrics are to be implemented? NO! At the end of the day it is just a commercialization of "revolution". It's all nice to see kids with Malcom X T-shirts and listening to rap but it doesn't change a iota to the situation.

What brings change is action by men of vision and courage not sing-song and rap. Liberal capitalism thrives on the idea that people who are discontent with the system are buying records that criticise it. Because the one who just spent 16 pounds or so on a record is :YOU!

It's easier to buy a record or listening to it rather than educating oneself, learning languages, philosophy, history etc in order to challenge the structure of the system and fight it appropriately.There is a difference between making a song about a revolution that happened and singing about one that will never happen because one is too busy playing the juggler...because at the end of the day that's all these pop, rap, bhangra and celebrities are: jugglers. One of the signs of Kaljug is the fact that these people are even taken seriously for a start.

Btw I make a clear distinction between these people and classical musical traditions. I would never dare to compare a Bhai Avtar Singh with those kanjar bhangra "singers", nor would I dare compare a brilliant opera singer like Natalie Desay to a kanjari like Madonna.

dalsingh101 wrote:

That's a bold statement brother. A lot of people (granted older ones) will say that rap introduced them to their history with references to Marcus Garvey for example.

Even if they were introduced to the ideas of Marcus Garvey, rap culture killed the Afro-American movement transfroming a community that could wake up into a living joke. And no, Obama doesn't count as a victory of the Afro-American movement.

dalsingh101 wrote:

I know rap today can be foolish, but originally it provided a voice for people culturally marginalised by the mainstream Anglo-Saxon/Jewish dominated media. There was much conscious rap produced not so long ago that had a very positively empowering effect on some the people who were most vulnerable in a very biased America. A part of hip hop (at least the original type) is simply Afro-American folk culture or expression. It was not all about biatches, hos and bling. In the late 80s/early 90s it was also a vehicle for a strong black consciousness movement (see Jungle Bros, Public Enemy etc.). Me personally, I enjoy Bhangra, as part of my cultural heritage and outsiders could equally attack it for being "low brow" and "vulgar". The truth is that people like Kuldeep Manak were producing the equivalent of "gansgta rap" a long time before blacks, albeit with some variation.

Well, as someone pointed out in another thread Bhangra was the occupation of low castes that were paid to perform it at weddings. I myself feel great shame when I think of my days of ignorance occasionally dancing bhangra. There is something deeply dehumanising about the bhangra culture that takes away the dignity of man to make him behave like a monkey. I don't want to start a debate on dancing here but it comes as no surprise to me that rap culture would meet Bhangra culture in second generation communities because they celebrate the same degrading spirit. As for rap vehiculating political messages: when a political message becomes a commodity that you can buy and consume it loses its value. Rap killed the afro-american movement that Malcolm X started. Malcolm X encouraged people to educate themselves, learn Latin, be cultured. All this political music is just another way to divert a serious cause from its aim.

People like that exist in all second generation communities that have adopted this global trend of immitating the Afro-American Lumpenproletariat and its sub-culture. It's not just a Sikh problem. You'll find them among Hindus and Muslims too. The problem is complex: it's the decay of the education systems in the West, the low social and educational level of the migrant communities and the massive influence of Anglo-Saxon global media with the trash culture it vehiculates and that includes this Afro-American rap "culture". It affects all minority communites and even mainstream youth now.

What reinforces it is that apology of stupidity provided by religious groups that disencourage intellectual activity. The argument that education was not important for a person like Bhagat Dhanna makes actually no sense. First of all in the society of his time he was not expected to be educated. His task was ascribed to him by the fact that he was born in a caste. Nor was he a citizen participating in a political process of decision making. The example of Dhanna doesn't apply at all in societies where the individual is considered to be a free citizen participating in the political life of his nation. This implies education because:

1. The citizen has to assimilate the cultural and political discource of the nation he lives in.

2. He has to be able to relate to it.

3. His knowledge and education is a prerequisite for the correct functioning of society i.e. he takes his political decisions based on acquired knowledge and the ability to debate, contradict and criticise.

The other aspect of the question is that education is in many countries considered to be a prerequisite for a meritocratic social ascension. In the France's system there are universities and then above them the Ecole Normale which is an elite university system training the elite of the country. The prerequisite for it is intelelctual achievement. This is in no way comparable to medieval India where there simply was no social mobility.

But what this "article" shows is the decay of that meritocratic system due to:1. the influence of anti-intellectual culture of the youth media since the 60s 2. the lowering of educational standards in order to accomodate that decay as well as the low educational level of migrant communities 3. a political will to dumb down citizens to the extent of making democracy a word devoid of any meaning.

The question you should ask yourselves is not wether this is a appropriate language to talk about a Sikh martyr. It clearly isn't appropriate. The question is: what are the reasons behind it and how do you fight it.

In which parva? Also...what does it matter if the text itself was composed after the events it is supposed to have "predicted"? The Bhavishyottarapurana is a much latter addition to the original Bhavishyapurana which is a Shaiva purana that also contains doctrinal and liturgical texts including sectiosn about Saura worship. The text you're referring is very recent and was added as an appendinx to the original purana and is considered by serious Indologists to be a forgery. In clear: it doesn't prove anything. It's not the first text of the kind. The Mahanirvana Tantra has whole sections that cleary show British influence. But I am not surprised to that text being used to confirm some spurious prophecies. With a bit of reasoning people should find it a bit strange that:

1. The Bhavishyottarapurana talks of avataras whereas Shaiva texts don't care about avatarvad because it's rejected in Shaivism.

2. Strangely enough the predictions all have something to do with Bengal...they "predict" the coming of Chaitanya and his goswamis, the British Raj, Queen Victoria and even Calcutta...Why do the predictions end there? Why isn't there a mention of Hitler, the Holocaust, WWI and WWII...

The Bhavishyapurana is known to be a notorious fraud amongs Indological scholars. Read Bhatt, M. and Remy, J. (1982). Le Kalki Purana, translated from Sanskrit, followed by a study by A. Preau, preface by J. Varenne. Milano: Arche. Especially the preface by Jean Varenne who used to teach Sanskrit at Aix-en-Provence University and was among the best Sanskritists in Europe. From a linguistic point of view there are simply too many borowings for this to be an old Sanskrit text. The text "predicts" the rule of Akbar and the East India Company...Strangely enough not a single acharay of the classical period ever mentions that work or engages with the doctrines expounded in them. It is at best a masterpiece of manipulation for the Indian masses. To see it being quoted by a Taksali master (the same one who says that Muhammad created a panth of eunuchs and stole his revelation from a sadhu) speaks volumes about the "scholarship" of taksal. But then again if a taksali scholar says that the colour of milk is black we're supposed to believe him because he's a sriman sant mahapurush etc of taksal.