singh2

Waheguru seeker, Singh ji has told very correctly. That is what you people do there. If you contest that i will prove by quoting posts and show how you rig the whole process of so called discussion there. You close the thread when someone is speaking against your ideology. After closing you allow your chosen ones to post. This happened yesterday itself . He is not accusing anybody he is speaking truth and baring your anti sikh ideology .

To understand charitras 21,22 and 23 one should read charitras before that starting with charitra 2. Upto charitra 20 a minister is reciting charitras where women are deceiving men. In beginning of Charitra 21 king asks minister now tell me a charitra where men have duped women. That is shown in charitra 21,22 and 23. That itself is clear that it is a story( Fiction) being recited by a minister to his king. It is not real and hence cann't be related to life of tenth master. Changing the name of places is an artistic expression to take the story to great heights. kala afghna sect follower khalsa fauj has different interpretation and he may tell us why he thinks that it happened with Guru ji when the writer i.e. guru sahib is repeatedly telling in charitras that these are mantri- bhup sambade. Khalsa Fauj, where are you. Please ask your Guru kala afghana, ragi Darshan and jeonwala for help.

Most of mischievious propaganda by so called singhsabha canada, ragi darshan singh and other chelas of kala afghana is carried out by citing these charitras and linking these to life of Guru Gobind singh ji. It shows they have not been able to comprehend the writing style of charitras and are not aware of the meaning of Charitroapkhyan. It is like blind leading a blind. May be so called khalsa fauj will be able to tell us why does he attach these charitras 21,22 and 23 to the life of tenth master. I am waiting for his reply.

I had missed your post. You wrote that charitropakhayan says that Guru gobind singh went to the house of a lady and while running away he left his truban and shoes. I brought to your attention that your reference is to charitras 21,22 and 23. The said charitras do not relate to life of Guru sahib. It is a story being retold where the author i.e. Guru sahib changes names of certain places to create interest. This is an art of story telling. The name charitropakhayan mean stories that were existing and are being retold. Moreover whole charitropakhayan except charitra 1 and last charitra is being told by a minister to his king. What makes you to have a wild guess by attaching charitras 21,22 and 23 to life of tenth master. What debate you will have with those people when you are not able to grasp the basic setting of charitropakhayan. All you can do is abuse bani of tenth master. Now let us have your reply.

I am not deterred by such attacks. When mean people fall short of arguements they resort to such things. But the point i am mentioning is the involvement of SPN administrator anthonia aka naryannyan kaur in this vulgarity. Then SPN ropes in Khalsa Fauj on their side. This khalsa fauj is incidentally banned on most of sikh forums except kala afghana sites. Owner of SPN Aman singh warns khalsa fauj a couple of days ago for using dirty language and then ropes him in and thanks him for his dirty role. Yet you call it a sikh forum. Sikhs do not use this type low language for others religious scriptures leave aside their on. And do not call it freedom of speech. Freedom of speech does not apply to religious texts. See warning of aman singh to khalsa fauj

Have you not read this? See below. Slander is very mild term for such abuse.Shame on you for lowering the standard of that forum to gutter langage. On Jan 17,2008 dasam granth and its history thread Another member Bhagat singh writes Dasam granth bas piece of tarsh The post parts are given below There are parts of Dasam Granth that can be made into an adult video. The language used is very common, so when you read it, it sounds fine if you dont understand BUT if you understand it, you can't help but have a laugh at that piece of trash and wonder why people say Guru Gobind Singh would write such a thing!\ The in the same thread Bhagat singh writes I don't know why... maybe...its because it's got porn in it! ----- dasam granth cannot be written by Guru Gobind Singh JI. Stop calling him the writer of this nonsensical piece of trash. Khanda and Kirpan were present before Guru Gobind Singh. Dont push it, now you will say Guru Gobind Singh worshipped Chandi! NONSENSE!---- 10th Master and Amrit have nothing to do with that trash! Do YOU know anything about the concept of Khalsa?? -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Please see discussion this guy had with Baba hari singh ranhawewale http://www.sikhclips.com/view_video.php?vi...=&category= http://www.sikhclips.com/view_video.php?vi...=&category= http://www.sikhclips.com/view_video.php?vi...=&category=

Sangat ji I have entered into discussion with khalsa fauj earlier on discovesikhi forum. Normally khalsa fauj and international akali appear together on forums. Mostly it is khalsa fauj aka international akali to cause impression that they are two persons. Given below is debate from discover sikhi site on some issues with us and then he fled. Post by akali international No you are wrong singh. In bachitar natak it says with the Kaan thee mail of shashobit the whole universe was made. So that is a contradiction. As for ardas it is only up to sab thaihee hoye sahai. And that is all. And after that it says khanda prathmai manaiekai jin sabh saisar oappiya. But if you read apni katha aka bachitar natak the entire srishrti was made from kaan thee mail of shashobit raja. So what should we do? believe one or the other? This post has been edited by [b]International Akaali[/b]: Mar 29 2008, 09:42 AM Answer by abc123 and that is me Akali That verse in Bachitra natak seems to be beyond your comprehension.Have you read that verse or you are just spreading someone else 's propaganda. I have read that verse.That does not mean what you say above.Please read it yourself. Post by akali international Das has read that, and am looking at it right now. please explain das the thuk as it is not beyong your comprehension. Please go to dasamgranth.org Go to Bachitar Natak. Page 12. and you will see in there. I am not spreading anyone elses propoganda with gurus kirpa. With gurus kirpa i am reading what is shown. I will not type in gurmukhi as it take time. I will give you the link. [url="http://&lt;banned%20site%20filter%20activated&gt;/institute/dasam/volume1.shtml"]http://<banned site filter activated>/institute/dasam/volume1.shtml://http://<banned site filter activ...m/volume1.shtml[/url] Page 12. Paragraph 4. Answer by abc123 and that is me The link you have given above does not have page 12.Can you correct that? Post by akali international You did not click bachitar natak so das will do it for you. Here is the new link: [url="http://&lt;banned%20site%20filter%20activated&gt;/institute/dasam/pdf/v1_3.pdf"]http://<banned site filter activated>/institute/dasam/pdf/v1_3.pdf://http://<banned site filter activ...am/pdf/v1_3.pdf[/url] Now you go to Page 12. Paragraph 4. In Kav Bans Varnan. Which is Pauri Number 13 it says in Chapai. You can see there. So you don't get confused just go to page 12 and 4th paragraph. Pauri number 13 . Answer by abc123 and that is me Akali ji page starts with no 56.From where page 12 comes in.Please check at your end again or you can write it down here. Akali ji It is on page 64.have you read first line of chaupai.There Guru ji writes Pritham kal jab kara pasara Oankar te sirisht apara When kal (Lord) first extended He through Oankar created the world How it is different from creation of the world as described in SGGS ji. It is clearly given in Punjabi also. [Akali ji It is page 64.Anyway the verse is given below. in the very first line Guru ji describes how this world was created. Next is a Myth.Myth is not reality.Myth is told to impart a moral lesson.Moral lessons is given in last lines. ਚੌਪਈ ॥ चौपई ॥ CHAUPAI ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਕਾਲ ਜਬ ਕਰਾ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ ਤੇ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਪਾਰਾ ॥ प्रिथम काल जब करा पसारा ॥ ओअंकार ते स्रिसटि उपारा ॥ In the beginning, when KAL created the world, it was brought into being by Aumkara (the One Lord). ਕਾਲਸੈਣ ਪ੍ਰਥਮੈ ਭਇਓ ਭੂਪਾ ॥ ਅਧਿਕ ਅਤੁਲ ਬਲਿ ਰੂਪ ਅਨੂਪਾ ॥੧੦॥ कालसैण प्रथमै भइओ भूपा ॥ अधिक अतुल बलि रूप अनूपा ॥१०॥ Kal sain was the first king, who was of immeasurable strength and supreme beauty.10. ਕਾਲਕੇਤ ਦੂਸਰ ਭੂਅ ਭਯੋ ॥ ਕ੍ਰੂਰ ਬਰਸ ਤੀਸਰ ਜਗ ਠਯੋ ॥ कालकेत दूसर भूअ भयो ॥ क्रूर बरस तीसर जग ठयो ॥ Kalket became the second king and Kurabaras, the third. ਕਾਲਧੁਜ ਚਤੁਰਥ ਨ੍ਰਿਪ ਸੋਹੈ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਤੇ ਭਇਓ ਜਗਤ ਸਭ ਕੋ ਹੈ ॥੧੧॥ कालधुज चतुरथ न्रिप सोहै ॥ जिह ते भइओ जगत सभ को है ॥११॥ Kaldhuj was the fourth kin, from whon the whole world originated. 11. ਸਹਸਰਾਛ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਸੁਭ ਸੋਹੈ ॥ ਸਹਸ ਪਾਦ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਤਨਿ ਮੋਹੈ॥ सहसराछ जा के सुभ सोहै ॥ सहस पाद जा के तनि मोहै॥ He had a thousand eyes a thousand feet. ਸੇਖਨਾਗ ਪਰ ਸੋਇਬੋ ਕਰੈ ॥ ਜਗ ਤਿਹ ਸੇਖ ਸਾਇ ਉਚਰੈ ॥੧੨॥ सेखनाग पर सोइबो करै ॥ जग तिह सेख साइ उचरै ॥१२॥ He slept on Sheshanaga, therefore he was called the master of Shesha.12. ਏਕ ਸ੍ਰਵਣ ਤੇ ਮੈਲ ਨਿਕਾਰਾ ॥ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਮਧੁ ਕੀਟਭ ਤਨ ਧਾਰਾ ॥ एक स्रवण ते मैल निकारा ॥ ता ते मधु कीटभ तन धारा ॥ Out of the secretion from one of his ears, Madhu and Kaitabh came into being. ਦੁਤੀਯ ਕਾਨ ਤੇ ਮੈਲੁ ਨਿਕਾਰੀ ॥ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਭਈ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਇਹ ਸਾਰੀ ॥੧੩॥ दुतीय कान ते मैलु निकारी ॥ ता ते भई स्रिसटि इह सारी ॥१३॥ And from the secretion of the other ear, the whole world materialized.13. ਤਿਨ ਕੋ ਕਾਲ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਬਧ ਕਰਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੋ ਮੇਦ ਸਮੁੰਦ ਮੋ ਪਰਾ ॥ तिन को काल बहुरि बध करा ॥ तिन को मेद समुंद मो परा ॥ After some period, the Lord killed the demons (Madhu and Kaitabh). Their marrow flowed into the ocean. ਚਿਕਨ ਤਾਸ ਜਲ ਪਰ ਤਿਰ ਰਹੀ ॥ ਮੇਧਾ ਨਾਮ ਤਬਹਿ ਤੇ ਕਹੀ ॥੧੪॥ चिकन तास जल पर तिर रही ॥ मेधा नाम तबहि ते कही ॥१४॥ The greasy substance floated thereon, because of that medital (marrow), the earth was called medha (or medani).14. ਸਾਧ ਕਰਮ ਜੇ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਮਾਵੈ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਜਗਤ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥ साध करम जे पुरख कमावै ॥ नाम देवता जगत कहावै ॥ Because of virtuous actions, a purusha (person) is known as devta (god) ਕੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਕਰਮ ਜੇ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਕਰਹੀ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਅਸੁਰ ਤਿਨ ਕੋ ਸਭ ਧਰਹੀ ॥੧੫॥ कुक्रित करम जे जग मै करही ॥ नाम असुर तिन को सभ धरही ॥१५॥ And because of evil actions, he is known as asura (demon).15. ਬਹੁ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ਕਹਾਂ ਲਗੈ ਬਖਾਨੀਅਤ ॥ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਬਢਨ ਤੇ ਅਤਿ ਡਰੁ ਮਾਨੀਅਤ ॥ बहु बिसथार कहां लगै बखानीअत ॥ ग्रंथ बढन ते अति डरु मानीअत ॥ If everything is described in detail, it is feared that the description will become voluminous. When he realizes he is wrong international akali tries to change the subject Post by akali international This is my last post. I will be closing my eyes. Why was bachitar natak written? It is apaani Katha. an autobiography. Why would myths be written in apaani katha. who cares why does this effect me? do you care if a myth says the univerise was made with the grime of ear? Also did you read the last line you posted in there ਬਹੁ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ਕਹਾਂ ਲਗੈ ਬਖਾਨੀਅਤ ॥ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਬਢਨ ਤੇ ਅਤਿ ਡਰੁ ਮਾਨੀਅਤ ॥ बहु बिसथार कहां लगै बखानीअत ॥ ग्रंथ बढन ते अति डरु मानीअत ॥ If everything is described in detail, it is feared that the description will become voluminous. "guru sahib" is too scared that the granth is gonna get too big. "Guru sahib" has fear instilled in him according to this quote. Answer by abc123 and that is me The moral is in these two lines. ਸਾਧ ਕਰਮ ਜੇ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਮਾਵੈ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਜਗਤ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥ साध करम जे पुरख कमावै ॥ नाम देवता जगत कहावै ॥ Because of virtuous actions, a purusha (person) is known as devta (god) ਕੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਕਰਮ ਜੇ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਕਰਹੀ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਅਸੁਰ ਤਿਨ ਕੋ ਸਭ ਧਰਹੀ ॥੧੫॥ कुक्रित करम जे जग मै करही ॥ नाम असुर तिन को सभ धरही ॥१५॥ And because of evil actions, he is known as asura (demon).15. When guru sahib has said in the very first line that Oankar created this world then there is no doubt left. This is a myth described to convey that people who do good works are appreciated and demons are punished.Myths are In SGGS also but these are used extensively in Dasam Granth. Such myths are there all over the world.There is babylonian myth of creation.Then there is biblical myth of creation.Mahabharata have also such myths.A myth is not reality. The point here is that those who criticize that guru ji wrote like this need to understand these myths.Had they that much exposure especially these 10th grade missionaries, they will never question Dasam Granth bani. Post by akali international ok if the writer is too scared about writing these myths so the granth will get so big. Why write them in the first place? And after the line where he says im too scared that the granth will get big.... Is that all a myth too? From that point he should stop writing the myths because the granth is gonna get too big. So I'm assumming the writings of myths should be over and the only thing that should be written is of some value rather than a myth. Answer by abc123 and that is me The writer has given moral lessons at the end of condensed of myths.The last line just denotes that he is not elaborating as it may enlarge the granth.That means that essence of the myth is conveyed. Post by akali international What moral do you get out of this story? What is your definition of moral lessons? Where is he saying this is a moral lesson? what is the moral in the story? Answer by abc123 and that is me Akali Have not you read earlier?I reproduce. ਸਾਧ ਕਰਮ ਜੇ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਮਾਵੈ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਜਗਤ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥ साध करम जे पुरख कमावै ॥ नाम देवता जगत कहावै ॥ Because of virtuous actions, a purusha (person) is known as devta (god) ਕੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਕਰਮ ਜੇ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਕਰਹੀ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਅਸੁਰ ਤਿਨ ਕੋ ਸਭ ਧਰਹੀ ॥੧੫॥ कुक्रित करम जे जग मै करही ॥ नाम असुर तिन को सभ धरही ॥१५॥ And because of evil actions, he is known as asura (demon).15. To undersatd this subject in detail you need to read a little more in depth about patriarchal system of the world.What was before that.What drawbacks it had.When marriage was institutionalized .It took care of many ills of society.So on and so on.Missonaries who have not crossed 10th standard cann't understand such depth of Dasam Granth.The last line is not aimed at you.You seem to be very intelligent man but misled by missionaries. Let us revert to original discussion now.What is your problem with vaar sri Bhagauti ji ki? There is noithing wrong in that. source: http://forums.panthic.net/index.php?showto...23535&st=60 Then sudden silence by khalsa fauj and international akali. They stop spreading mischief on that site. Thnenthey go other sites and do the same mischief. finally they were together on Sikhphilosophy . net where they are accorded welcome to spread nonsense as in case of Chartira 21,22 and 23. Come on fake scholar and let us have a discussion. otherwise stop spreading blasphemy .

I wrote this on sikhsangat. This was my parallel source of information about ghagha. http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showto...24&start=24 QUOTE by jassa ji There is some background of his insults for Jaap sahib. It comes from Inder Ghagha, his guru. Inder Ghagha was a driver with Punjab state Electricity Board. he was caught while stealing cable and jailed. He was lodged in Bhatinda jail around 1983. Also lodged there was an activist of sikh students federation. Inder Ghagha was a member of communist party. he had no belief in Gurbani. One day while taking bath in front of a hand pump in compound of jail, he started reading his trumped up( home made) jaap sahib. THis activist listened. He took garvi from the hand of Inder Ghagah and hit it on his head. This gentleamn is in USA and lives in northen california. he related this event to sangat. So this is gurdikhia Fauj has taken from his Guru Ghagha.

Interesting information on Inder Ghagha who is considered as guide of anti dasam granth brigade. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/learning-zone/message/39386 Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh In winter of 1992, I was visiting village of my in-laws known as village Ghagga in Patiala Distt. This village is mostly inhabited by Pannus who migrated from Amritsar Distt long time ago. Inder Singh Ghagga was known as Bhai Inder Singh Pannu in those days. One mornimg, I went to the Gurdwara Sahib to listen to Katha as some one told me that a Giani of our own clan (Aapnay Gharaan 'chon)does katha in the Gurdwara Sahib daily. As I walked in, I noticed about 3-4 bodies (mostly puranay sareer) sitting as listeners (Sarotaas) with Loiies around their bodies. I sat till the end of Katha, and Bhai Inder Singh spoke to me for about 15 minutes afterwards. In this conversation, he basically expressed a very keen desire to visit Canada, and wanted me to send him a sponsorship through our Gurdwara Sahib. I was not impressed with his Katha at all because I noticed he knew only surfacial meanings, and had no depth in his elaborations of the Hukamnama that day. Infact I found it very empty and meanings stretched with no linkages in his conclusions. I walked back home and asked my brother-in-law about Bhai Inder Singh's background and as to how he became a Kathakar out of these illetrate Pannus of Ghagga. The Pannus of Ghagga are also known as "Khoondaymaar" for their highhanded behaviour in the village. This village is considered one of the backwardest in terms of education. Anyhow, my brother-in-law told me that Harpal and Inder's family did not have much land and were very poor. Their father worked hard to send his children to school. Inder Singh, the older son was studying in matric and got a job as a driver with Electricity Board, Bathinda office. The younger Harpal was smarter and went to Punjabi Uni to do his P.hd. This way I came to know that Inder Singh Panuu and Harpal Singh Pannu of Pbi Uni were real brothers. Inder Singh, however was charged & convicted with theft/stealing from Electricity Board Bathinda and was dismissed from his Driver's job. He returned back to Ghagga. After that Inder Singh took correspondence courses with Missionary College Ludhiana, and upon completion of his diploma, started doing Katha and make his both ends meet. The local Gurdwara offered him a fixed salary to extend help to Inder Singh's family. This much I came to know at that time. The matter rested at that. Many years passed by, till Kala Afghana controversy started circulating. As destiny has it, I met Kala Afghana here in London as well few years before his black-writings were published. Kala Afghana was staying with his daughter, who's husband was a physician in local hospital. Interestingly enough KA gave me the first draft of his book Bipran Ki Reet printed on dot-matrix printer (I still have that) to look it over, and offer my opinion. I found his writing so boring that I never bothered about it, and dismissed it as crazy cravings of an old frustrated man who was angry at Sikhs that his relative who was a Kirtania got killed by Khardkoos. KA went away to California and things were quiet for some years. Suddenly, his books started appearing and controversies were seen in the papers. I found out about KA's conviction in molestation case of Victoria Gurdwara and published the judgement on the Gurmat Learning Zone for the first time. This bombshell came as a surprise to KA followers. At first they did not believe it and doubted its authenticity. When confirmed, they started putting up another argument that what matters is not his chracter but what he says about Gurmat, and the service he has rendered in exposing Bipar influence upon Sikh way of life. I have not yet published KA's shameful act in the Gurdwara in Saskatoon, and he received a severely worded warning from Sangat to not repeat such things. His followers can ask him directly about this, if they think he will tell the truth. Anyways, let us continue... The dead stories became alive again recently as I heard one Prof. Inder Singh Ghagga appearing as member of Sri-Dasam-Granth-Hate-Brigade, and Hindu-Hate-Brigade (like admirers of KA such as Joginder Singh Gurtej Singh). I never knew who is this Prof. Ghagga, but the word "Ghagga", being village of my in-laws, made me curious to find out who was this guy. When I checked further, I found out that this man was the Inder Singh Pannu, I met long time ago in Ghagga Gurdwara - Dr. Harpal Singh Pannu being his younger brother. The story became more dramatic as I learned this: I spoke to Dr. Anokh Singh ji of Bathinda, and asked him if he knows Prof. Ghagga. He confirmed further that he is brother of Prof Harpal Singh Pannu. I said but Pannu's views about Sri Dasam Granth are diametrically opposite to that of Inder Singh. How is it possible to have this relationship? Dr Anokh Singh added that he met Dr. Harpal Singh at some Sikh gathering and asked similar question as I had. He asked him if he was Inder's real brother, by the same parents. Harpal Singh confirmed but with a few very interesting qualifying remarks. Dr Harpal Singh Pannu said: "1. Dr Sahib, Pirthyaa was born in the same Guru's house hold. 2. I (Dr Harpal Singh Pannu) had a small modest dwelling in Patiala that I built after a long time working as a professor at the Uni. Whereas, my brother Inder, who is matric educated, owns a kothi in Ludhiana." This is how Dr Harpal Singh Pannu responded to Dr. Anokh Singh's shocking questions. By the way, this Dr Anokh Singh was present in Toronto area location where about 150 Singhs had assembled to have a debate with Prof Ghagga on points of contention. Prof. Ghagga never appeared there as already reported in the press. I asked Dr Anokh Singh about the title Prof. that Inder Singh Ghagga uses. He explained that a Gurmat College was started across from canal in village Jawaddi by some Gurmukh piara by donating his ancestral land. That man has died. Inder Singh got job to teach Gurmat there after receiving his diploma from Ludhiana Sikh Missionary College's correspondance course. This is how he found a short cut to Professorship as opposed to his brother Dr Harpal Singh Pannu. For reader's knowledge I would suggest two books: One is titled Kalaey Afganay Dey Kalay Leikh. This book is a very good collection of articles dealing with Kala Afghana's anti-Sikh writings. Dr Anokh Singh has written excellent articles in this. (Dr Anokh Singh has written one small book on Gurbani Grammer as well, worth acquiring as well.) Second book that deals very thoroughly the KA issue and deals with the filth of KA systematically, is "Sabh Dushat Jhakh Maraa" by Kanwar Ajit Singh of Patiala. This is a must read for all the KA supporters, and those who seek truth of Gurmat, Guru-Gyan-Bhauray. Harkinder Singh London Ontario Canada

The post at # # is nothing but personal attack on me. Posting her views is anthonia who was anthonia till yesterday and became naryanjyot kaur in the evening. She is administrator for SPN. Surprisingly khalsa fauj a new favorite at SPN is also posting. So it is well coordinated attack. This is a typical example when one cann't counter other by arguements resort to personal attacks.That also reflects cheap mentality of SPN people where bullying and vulgar language reigns supreme. such people are encouraged there. This also reflects childish mentality of the poster who want to conform sikhism to their west aquired tastes. I have my Guru sahib by my side and I am not going to be deterred by such slander.

So called Khalsa Fauj is hopping from one forum to another and giving a twisted version Of chartras 21, 22 and 23 of Charitrpakhyan. He wrote yesterday on Sikh philosophy net following post Fauji You are referring to charitropakhayan in above post. Need to remember that charitroapkhyan are written in Mantri bhup sambad style. In other words a minister tells tales to a king. Charitra you are referring to is 21, 22 and 23. It is not associated with life of Guru Gobind singh ji. This is a story that is taken from middle east and rewritten by Guru sahib. It is an art of story telling where name of places have been changed. That does not say it happpened. It is a mythical tale to impart a moral lesson. Guru Gobind singh ji was not a king. Khalsa Fauj and other kala fghanis do not undersatnd the format of writing of Charitropakhyan. They do not know the the purpose of a myth and meaning of myth. They are misinterpreting bani of tenth master by attaching this story to life of tenth master. I throw an open challenge to him and his cohorts to discuss these chartiras on sikhawareness where gang type support he is enjoying on SPN from other members while telling false stories about the life of tenth master is not tolerated. Let us have discussion on this.

WE are well aware derogatory language is being used for Dasam Granth sahib at SPN.SPN posted here that it is not correct as they do not allow any filthy language for Dasam Granth and asked for evidence. Evidence with cut out posts datewise was posted on their website. They started histting back in a provocative language and justifed what they allow there. FOLLOWING IS THE response from Aman aka Ideal singh who is owner of that site http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/general-disc...ilosophy-2.html Inder Singh ji and all your supporters, everybody is entitled to his/her opinions on any subject. Its a Talibanis trait to suppress one way of thinking to promote another. If you feel insecure dealing with the realities of real life situations then you are most welcome to leave the SPN and continue spreading your lies over and over again. We are least bothered. SPN primarily respects the freedom of speech and expression of each and everybody and that includes you, gyani ji, tejwant ji, myself and all others... if anybody reflects on the same spectrum in a particular way that does not make it a engraving on a stone and others would start making chidish bragging, hue and cry over the matter... Sikhi is not such a weak link that it needs the support of falliable humans like you and me. Truth pervails under all circumstances. Let us allow the truth to reveal itself in our lives... Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25674 (Re: Slander of Dasam Granth at Sikh Philosophy Network) Everybody here is exloring all the possiblities and nobody has the right to label a person for his personal way of thinking as slandering. Even the other persons, who have opposing point of view to yous, can label you as slandering as you do not adhere to their way of thinking. Even they can cheaply go to other platform and spread hatred against you. But, they choose to learn and evolve. Choice is ours. Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25674 (Re: Slander of Dasam Granth at Sikh Philosophy Network) SPN allowed you and your supporters to speak your heart out in favour of Sri DG and SPN allowed all others who do not agree to compiliations of Sri DG. This is called a fair play. This is all SPN is about. The posts you have posted above are just a point of view of an individual and nothing more. SPN is toally neutral on this issue of DG and it will remains like this no matter how boxed minded people make a hue and cry over this. We are all here to learn discover and evolve... You are always most welcome to share your knowledge on Gurbani and Gurmat Vichar, if any. We have no time to your baseless accusitions and spreading them shamelessly all over the forums. Stop indulging in mud slinging and turf wars... we ain't interested in that. We are least bothered. If you can not digest and enjoy the freedom of expression and speech atomosphere around here then you are most welcome to walk out... and return to where you belong... you should be thankful that even after so much turmoil casued by your false propaganda, we are allowing you to freely navigate over here and pick and choose posts. Very smart. Rest later... AND THEN Inder Singh ji, why are you so insecure...? Why your faith in the Guru so feeble and delicate that it shakes each time someone utters somehing that does not adhere to your thought process. Nothing happens against the will of the Waheguru/Lord, Inder Singh Ji. Who are we to play Waheguru's Advocates? Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25674 (Re: Slander of Dasam Granth at Sikh Philosophy Network) This would interest you Inder Singh ji, there are more than several translations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji freely taking rounds on internet... For your information, the most widely circulated and accepted translation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has been done by Mona Sikhs, Jasjeet Singh Thind, Dr. Kulbir S Thing... Sri Granth - a Sri Guru Granth Sahib Resource. Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25674 (Re: Slander of Dasam Granth at Sikh Philosophy Network) Some translations are so ambigious and anti-gurmat but even then are freely circulated over the internet. Every other day a new person/derawala/sant/baba/add to endless list, comes up with his/her own interpreations... Have you ever bothered to deal with such persons? They are creating doubts in the mind of readers in real time? These are the real threats to Sikhi in the long term... Have you and your supporters ever bothered to compare or analysed the translations of these persons and expose kind of falsehood they may be spreading? Persons, trasnlating Gurbani (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ji) without any real understanding are the real threat to the Panth... What have you done to stop this? ================================================================================ ======================== An egoistic response. Abuse and twisting the significance of a religious scripture is being called Freedom of speech amd those who revere that scripture and ask for restraint or checks on defaulters are called talibans. THis unmasks theor real face.

Randip Stop beating about bush. What is your comment for the posts of Bhagat singh given here and reproduced. The in the same thread Bhagat singh writes dasam granth cannot be written by Guru Gobind Singh JI. Stop calling him the writer of this nonsensical piece of trash. Khanda and Kirpan were present before Guru Gobind Singh. Dont push it, now you will say Guru Gobind Singh worshipped Chandi! NONSENSE!---- 10th Master and Amrit have nothing to do with that trash! Do YOU know anything about the concept of Khalsa?? And reply in light of post of tony aka dass007 given below We also believe that the allegations are categorically untrue. We invite sikhwareness members to identify and list specific examples of slander found on SPN, naming the member, moderator or mentor who uttered the slander. You must also clearly state that you are responding to our invitation as a sikhwareness.com member. You will be required to provide the thread url and post number where the slander occurred. Slander is defined as words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another person. No multiple identities! Respectfully, the Admin at SPN

Some more quotes of slander from SPN Giani ji on dasam granth http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/23...shan-singh.html imho the entire drama is about the "Bachittar Natak"..Strange Drama !! First Kala Afghana exposed this as fake and not written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.. Then Ragi Darshan Singh Ji also came forward to actively PROTEST this book being placed on Par with our GURU.. Thus those who "hate" kala Afghana must also hate Ragi....because they both are saying the same thing...Bachittar Natak aka dsm granth is NOT by Guru Ji and should NOT be parkash at Hazoor Sahib where the 3ooth Gurta Gadhi Diws of GURU is being celebrated..Gurta was given to ONLY Guru Granth Sahib JI and no other boook/granth has nay equal significance especially at Hazoor Sahib where the 1708 decision by GUur Ji is being celebrated. Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23200 (Kala Afghana V/S Darshan Singh Ragi) Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23200 (Kala Afghana V/S Darshan Singh Ragi) Thus it would be sweet music to these peopel...IF...the Ragi and KA were to fight !! An enemy divided is an enemy dead.... BUT imho this is NOT about to happen any time soon....the KA wrote BOOKS..and the RAGI is an ORATOR...BOTH complement each other !!! Their MESSAGE is the SAME.."SAY NO TO DSM GRANTH". Gyani Js =============================================================== You embrace Dasam Granth instead by undermining,disrepescting and second guessing Guru Gobind Singh ji. It needs nothing more than common sense to see that if Guru Gobind Singh ji wanted a granth by his name then he would not have added his father's Guru Teg Bahadur's Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and hence would have rendered it useless. It is appalling that you and your ilk do not accept Guru Gobind Singh's decision. So now you know that you and people who think the way you do are unshamedly heretic, which is sad. ================================================================== Giani ji on Dasam granth Praising those who wrote against dasam granth and wee excommunicated SO if..I say IF..a Bhag Singh Ambala came along and questioned the DSM Granth with ONE Book.....Bhai Gurbakhs Singh Kala Afghana came along and wrote TEN Books..many others also wrote not only BOOKS but also offered a REWARD of TEN LAKH Rupees to anyoen who cna prove that the writer of dsm Granth is Guur Gobind Singh Ji....SO WHAT ?? IF these people are all FRAUDS..telling lies..have no basis..what are we AFRAID OF ?? Why go to extrereme knee jerk reactions like excommunicate them, villify them, take a microscope and digg durt on their personal lives to discredit them....and form so called Human Rights Organsiations that DECIDE on DSm Granth ( Human Rights !! not Scripture Rights ??) set up Orgs and Coms and Nets on the Internet etc etc to "prove" something that NEEDS NO PROOF ?? Why not let the FALSEHOOD FALL ON ITS OWN ?? ============================================================ Again Giani ji calls rehatnamsa and hukam nama as fake' Fake Laetters of Bhai mani Singh..Fake rehitnamahs, Hukmanmahs, etc etc and all...has been going on for CENTURIES... people all over can read the TRUTH..in www.Rozana spokesman.com ================================================================= Tejwant calling others Hindus for respecting DG Inder Singh ji, I want to thank you for showing your true colors and your faith in Hinduism which is not a bad thing. Lots of Hindus are also members of this Sikh forum. =============================================================== Tejwant calling believers in dasam bani as Hindutva When these things about DG being the work of Guru Gobind Singh keep on cropping up by some whose agenda is nothing but deviate us from our only GURU- Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and add Hindutva into Sikhi. =========================================================== Khalsa fauj on dasam granth I am a Sikh of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. You can bring your Guru which is Dasam Granth, to live debate. We can read some chariters to the sangat. NOTE Same thread for these

Mithar ji This is just a tip of iceberg. I have not scruitnised even 20 percent of posts yet. Name of whaeguruseeker is yet to figure.

Daas of SPN ji Please give your opinion since evidence has been furnished, It is obvious that slander and name calling in dirty langauge for dasam granth was going on. Since you are aware of this,may we know how you will stop this. Once you do that as Aman singh had warned one of posters, i have nothing to write on SPN. I have no personal issue with them. Go to the top of the pageReport Post Edit Post

dass of SPN ji On Jan 17,2008 dasam granth and its history thread Another member Bhagat singh writes Dasam granth bas piece of tarsh The post parts are given below There are parts of Dasam Granth that can be made into an adult video. The language used is very common, so when you read it, it sounds fine if you dont understand BUT if you understand it, you can't help but have a laugh at that piece of trash and wonder why people say Guru Gobind Singh would write such a thing!\ The in the same thread Bhagat singh writes I don't know why... maybe...its because it's got porn in it! ----- dasam granth cannot be written by Guru Gobind Singh JI. Stop calling him the writer of this nonsensical piece of trash. Khanda and Kirpan were present before Guru Gobind Singh. Dont push it, now you will say Guru Gobind Singh worshipped Chandi! NONSENSE!---- 10th Master and Amrit have nothing to do with that trash! Do YOU know anything about the concept of Khalsa?? ================================================================== Another member International akali on Dasam granth in same thread See how international is discarding Dasam granth in the same thread. Quote: Originally Posted by International Akaali bani hai guru guru hai bani vich bani Amrit sarai. You have admitted that dasam granth is not guru and then how can you say that jaap sahib tav parsaad swaiye is gurbani. It is literature equvilent to Zafarnama. Please contemplate the shabad written above. The only word which is contained of the guru is Guru Granth Sahib ji. Jaap sahib, swaiye, chaupai do not have the stamp of guru on it. The word of the guru is only in Guru Granth Sahib ji. That is who you call guru now and forever will.

Vada Mera Govind Agam Agochar **** Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 18-January 08 Member No.: 16138 Rating: < 0 ( 1 ) 3 > Tony aka Dass ji in the same thread Aman singh owner of SPN reinforces view of Jarnail singh by citing this from somewhere and no source is given. THis is a very clever trick to back giani ji. Post of aman is given below By Aman singh of SPN 1. Not all that is contained in Dasam Granth is Gurbaani, but there is authentic Baani like Jaap Sahib etc. 2. Dasam Granth was not compiled by the Guru's, but it was supposedly done by Bhai Mani Singh much later - as pointed out by Kesar Singh Chibber. However kesar Singh also writes that a 'Sikh' cursed Bhai Sahib, that his 'band band' would be cut, yet he would remain steadfast in his sikhi. This seems to be a crude attempt to undermine the sikhi of a great Sikh like Bhai Mani Singh. Please analyse, this story. See how the story attempts to say that the bemisaal shahdat of Bhai Mani Singh was due to a 'curse' by a 'Sikh', not because he was a great Sikh. Further there is neither a concept of Boon or curse in sikhi. All powers are in the hand of almighty not with anyone. Further a true Sikh would never curse, Bhai Sahib, who himself being a tru sikhi would never do any unsikhi or manmati acticity. Kesar Singh Chiber also writes that he is writing the accounts on hearsay... something which poses a question mark on the authenticity of his accounts. He wrote his Bansavalinama when he was 72 years old !!! 3. Even if we assume for a moment that Bachittar Natak and CharitroPakhyan are Gurbaani, we cannot accord them the same status as Guru Granth Sahib, that is the status of our Guru. If we were to do that, tommorrow, somone may question why we canot have Prakash of Bhai Gurdas Baani, for that is Panth Pravnit. 4. The fact, dear Veers is to sit down, think cooly and arrive at a conclusion for the benefit of Sikhs all over. I wonder what stops the SGPC from having a debate within the 2 factions to resolve the issue. The above is a typical kala afghana sect writing.Yet you say you are being wrongly quoted.

Tony/dass ji That is what another member writes On Jan 17,2008 dasam granth and its history thread Another member Bhagat singh writes Dasam granth bas piece of tarsh The post parts are given below There are parts of Dasam Granth that can be made into an adult video. The language used is very common, so when you read it, it sounds fine if you dont understand BUT if you understand it, you can't help but have a laugh at that piece of trash and wonder why people say Guru Gobind Singh would write such a thing!\ The in the same thread Bhagat singh writes I don't know why... maybe...its because it's got porn in it! ----- dasam granth cannot be written by Guru Gobind Singh JI. Stop calling him the writer of this nonsensical piece of trash. Khanda and Kirpan were present before Guru Gobind Singh. Dont push it, now you will say Guru Gobind Singh worshipped Chandi! NONSENSE!---- 10th Master and Amrit have nothing to do with that trash! Do YOU know anything about the concept of Khalsa?? -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- So please stop making false claims. Read what is written above.

Tony aka dass oo7 ji You are posting same post on sikhsangat and here under two different names.Please read: On July 3, 2008 in the thread Dasam granth history, Mentor SPN Giani Jarnail singh wrote 1 Letter of Bhai mani singh To mata sundri on Dasam granth compositions is fake 2) He wrote dasam granth has pornography in it and has sex acts and tells us how to drink, take bhang etc Now dasam garnth is an accepted scripture among sikhs. how can an aged man acting as mentor of SPN is allowed to make such ridiculous statements. I responded to him by giving refrences that what he writes is false assumption and has no historical backing. In the same thread one Pk70 also castigates dasam granth sahib. THis is just tip of iceberg. I will post more. i have posted what i have seen there. It will all be proved to you.

Randip You were caught on SPN by me lying today and shamelessly you post here and talk about truth. You are a shameless creature and liar calling other monkeys and then you quote Gurbani here.

dass007 In what capacity you are writing this. What is your role on SPN. This is not negative propaganda. It is a fact that two of mentors at SPN are hard core kala afghani chelas who write negatively about bani of tenth master. The title of Thread is Slander of Dasam Granth on SPN. Since they write there it is but natural SPN name will surface. One khalsa Fauj terms Dasam granth as Kanjar kavita. SPN had been tolerating it till i went. When i started posting in defence of Dasam granth about a month back mentors started using bullying langauge against me. One mentor called me a Hindu peddaling Dasam granth. He called Dasam granth a Hindu scripture. he called Dasam granth anti gurmat. My posts started getting deleted. I was accused by anthonia as somebody like muslim extremist.Finally they put me under modeartion. Incidemtally you were no where and never posted anything for Dasam granth. Now suddenly you have surfaced here. Same message on sikh sangat.com and here under different names. That is when i started here stating the facts. Do you deny above? If so i can post the relevant posts for you here. I went second time on the invitation of dal singh. I was met with nothing but hate questions. Then finally Dal singh had a debate with me and as soon as it was finished then same barage of questions. Your mentors will not allow any debate to be done there so far they are there. put your house in order first and then blame others. Also instruct your mentors and admn lady stop lying about otehrs. What do you mean by multiple identities. I have the same ID with added 2 here and same ID there. On sikhawareness my id of inder singh was already in use and i registerd by Inder singh2 and used SINGH2 as my writing ID. THis itself shows how truthful you are. Why you guys are posting two identical messages one here and one on sikhsangat under two different names. So who are you Tony ( who posted this message on sikhsangat) or dass007?

They are enemies of sikhs in sikh disguise.You can call them malesh khalsa.

dalsingh101 Do you think waheguruseeker will believe that. He will never as his job is to sustain this controversy. It is enough to see and conclude by comparing two handwritings that they are from one person. Guru sahib had a unique style of writing. Moreover he was also using symbol in his writing. That also matches. I expaline to you about circumsatnces in which Hazuri beer was plundered when Anandpur sahib was sacked and is still in private possession.