singh2
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Stop talking nonsense
What i wrote is correct. you have so called mentors who distort sikh philosophy in their own atheist way. then the moderators back them up. That is not the forum to have -a healthy debate.
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Stop talking nonsense
What i wrote is correct. you have so called mentors who distort sikh philosophy in their own atheist way. then the moderators back them up. That is not the forum to have -a healthy debate.
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The followers of kala afghani sect, missionaries and Darshan ragi have not seen the gates of insitiutes of higher learning.
By doing some correspondence course they become instantly preachers, interpreter of gurbani, historians and masters of sikh philosophy all combined in one man. This is impossible. For example kala afghana has studied upto 8 class in Urdu. he does not know Punjabi even. how can this man understand Dasam granth whose language is so complex.
Darshan singh Ragi is 10th standard. he can sing hymns from a paper in front of him. how can he preach sikh philosophy. To understand sikh scriptures one need to live a sikh life full of naam simran,humility and selfless service. All these people seriously lack this quality. they can mislead ignorant sikhs for sometime but they will fail in the end and vanish in history. Bani of Sikh Gurus will live forever.
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Khalsa fauj gives us funny lectures about bhagauti.
Fauj ji, Bhagauti is power of akal purakh. It is one of the attributes of akal purakh. Sikh theology very much believes in power of akal purakh.
If you visit any sikh takhat you can see the weapons there at main place. Moreover this power is endorsed by sikh gurus.
ਆਪੇ ਸਕਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਸਕਤੀ ਜਗਤੁ ਪਰੋਵਹਿ ॥:
Aape sakataa aape surataa sakatee jagatu parovahi:
You Yourself are All-powerful, the Intuitive Knower and the Sakti; on which the whole world is strung
(sggs 1242).
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Kahlsa fauj writes
read his Gurmat Maartund and see what he says about Charitropakhyan and MahakaalWill you give us reference here. This is BIG, BIG lie. I have read the meanings of mahakal as done by Kahan singh ji Nabha. Is resorting to lies one of the main qualifications of anti dasam Granth brigade of heretics.
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Bhai Kahan SIngh Nabha twisted many things in his book 'Hum Hindu Nahin' to prove that Sikhs are not Hindus. Other than that, read his Gurmat Maartund and see what he says about Charitropakhyan and Mahakaal. Thank you very much. If Guru Granth Shaib Ji is your Guru, you will be able to backup your claims with Guru Granth Sahib Ji. A claim is deemed manmat if it can't be backed up with quotes from Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Khalsa fauj
You call yourself khalsa and yet condemn dasam bani. A sikh is that who follows both granths one as Guru and the other as a respectable scripture.
A khalsa is initiated with five banis and three of those are from Dasam granth. Three banis of a sikh's nitnem is from Dasam granth.
Do not mislead sangat by lies. Back up your false claims by references. here is what Bhai kahan singh nabha writes in gurmat martand
" A Brief History of Sri Dasam Granth " - Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha
In the year Samvat 1778 (1721 A.D.) i.e. thirteen years after Guru Gobind Singh ji's demise Mata Sundri ji appointed Bhai Mani Singh ji as Granthi of Darbar Sahib, Sri Amritsar. Bhai Mani Singh ji discharged his duty very efficiently and during his tenure compiled different books including volumes of Sri Guru Granth Sahiband a volume containing writings of Guru Gobind Singh ji. He took a lot pain to collect writing from poets and devout Sikhs and prepared A Granth of the Tenth Master, known as Dasvin Patshahi ka Granth.
Bhai Mani Singh ji attained martyrdom in Samvat 1795 (1738 A.D.) i.e. thirty years after the Guru Gobind Singh ji left this world. Thereafter the Sikhs chose to send the volume of Dasam Granth to Damdama Sahibfor perusal which was the seat of learning at that time and was known as Guru ki Kanshi.
Volume of this Dasam Granth was discussed in detail in the Khalsa Divan. There three views emerged. First: the entire volume be kept as such and be not split into different parts. Second: we should have oneGranth only which has been conferred guru ship by Guru Gobind Singh ji himself and this Granth be split into different books so that the learned, scholars, Gianis and students are able to study it according to their competency. Third: many said that it should be split into two parts, one containing sri mukhvak baneewhich enunciates the principles of the of Khalsa and the second volume should contain the history etc. Fourth: many said that the volumeprepared by Bhai Mani Singh ji should remain intact but certain deficiencies be removed, like searching missing portions etc .Fifth: many were of the view that the rest of the Granth be kept as such but the Chritras and eleven Hikayats, which could not be recited in the open divan and is more difficult for ladies, should be kept in another volume. Many more suggestions came but the gathering could not reach to any conclusion. Then Bhai Mehtab Singh Mirankotia came to the venue and said “I am going to punish Massa Ranghar for desecration of Sri Harimandir Sahib. If I come back alive after killing Massa Ranghar then this Granth should be preserved as such, and if I attain martyrdom then this should be split into different books”. Bhai Mahtab Singh returned safe after accomplishing the feat and the ' beer' of Dasam Granth remained intact.
Gurmat Martand, Vol. 2. Page 568
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Hello mittar!!!!
I asked where IT IS USED FOR GOD!
Lets not bring in Vaar # 41 because it isn't written by Bhai Gurdas that compiled Aad Granth Ji.
Vaar 41 is no credible by any means.
Next time also check if the quote is used for God or if the quote is used for worshipper of God meaning Bhagat.
Thank you for trying by going to Sikhitothemax and searching. However, it would have been better if you had spent the time understanding those quotes.
We need not give quote from SGGS ji to prove bhagauti is for God. As stated in Dasam granth sahib Bhagauti is sword and a symbolism for power of God.
It is also well described about Bhagauti in "Hum hindu nahin" written by Bhai kahan singh nabha. This book is in dilaogue form between a Hindu and a sikh. Hindu argues that Bhagauti in sikh ardas means Devi Durga. Sikh quotes from Chandi di Vaar to prove him wrong. Now these kala afghanis and missionaries are playing the role of fanatic Hindus.
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ਏਕੁ ਪਿਤਾ ਏਕਸ ਕੇ ਹਮ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਤੂ ਮੇਰਾ ਗੁਰ ਹਾਈ ॥
ਤੂ ਮੇਰਾ ਪਿਤਾ ਤੂਹੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਾਤਾ ॥ ਤੂ ਮੇਰੇ ਜੀਅ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ॥ ਤੂ ਮੇਰਾ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਹਉ ਦਾਸੁ ਤੇਰਾ ॥ ਤੁਝ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋ ਮੇਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਹੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਦਾਤਿ ॥ ਤੁਮ੍ਰੀ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਕਰਉ ਦਿਨ ਰਾਤਿ ॥੧॥
ਤੂੰ ਸਾਝਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਬਾਪੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥ ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਤੇਰੈ ਅਖੁਟ ਭੰਡਾਰਾ ॥ ਜਿਸੁ ਤੂੰ ਦੇਹਿ ਸੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਅਘਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਭਗਤੁ ਤੁਮਾਰਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਆਸੈ ਤੇਰੀ ਬੈਠਾ ॥ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਤੂੰਹੈ ਵੁਠਾ ॥ ਸਭੇ ਸਾਝੀਵਾਲ ਸਦਾਇਨਿ ਤੂੰ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਦਿਸਹਿ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
We have problem with kala afghana not only over Dasam bani. Kala afghanis interpretation of gurmat is contradictory to established sikh traditions.
They do not believe in Naam simran, karmas, reincarnation, Gurmantra etc. These are the piallars of sikhi. So there can never be agreement with this atheist group.
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Above statements are far from truth. The dohra that Finland sangat implemented is the oldest one which says Panth Khalsa Janeo Pargat Gura Kee Deh. What is wrong with that? It still says Aageaa Bhaee Akaal Kee Tabe Chalaeo Panth. Do you even know the Dohra or you are just taking your time to lash at Ghagga for something you don't know about? What is wrong with saying that 40 Sikhs didn't leave Guru Gobind Singh Ji? What is more better for panth? Sikhs turning back to Guru and then coming back or Sikhs never turning back to Guru? You sure don't know about the dohra of Bhai Prehlad Singh. Please read Prehlad Singh Rehatnama.
Instead of harping on in defence of so called Ghagha please give us reference of the Dohra as you say.
They have no authority to change anything. It is akal takhat who has authority to make changes.
By saying that there were no chali muktas they are trying to alter sikh history. Is there any justification for that?
By the way how this guy became professor? Who gave him this title?
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Ghagga has corrected his mistakes in the 2nd edition of his book. It doesn't say Naam Japnaa Gorakh Dhanda anymore. It says: Naam Kivay Japeeaye meaning how should we do naam japnaa. He also corrected the Guru Nanak eating halal meat at Mecca thing. It takes a man to admit fault and he did that. Not only did he admit mistake, he corrected his mistakes.
It is ghagha who instigated Finland sangat to change ardas. It is ghagha who changed dohra of ardas and substituted panth for Guru Granth. Thus he and his henchmen have disowned SGGS ji as their Guru.
It is ghagha who removed chali muktas from ardas as these missioanries say that there were no chali muktas.
Do we need more proof that these traitors are funded by anti sikh agencies. So It is not only Dasam Granth but their target is whole sikh panth.
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Looks guys, do your own analysis of Dasam Granth. It becomes quite apparent that there are some sections that are penned by the 10th Master, but their are other sections that are not.
Which are those sections? Kindly put those here as you claim to have read dasam granth.
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I don't like all the ads on SPN, and most of the users here, like me, are not members. Since we started it here, lets finish it here then you can copy and paste or link it.
They have some (mod edit) people on sikh philosophy net who are die hard chelas of kaal afghana. Those people will never let you have a good debate.
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Was Bhai Kahan Singh Naba a naastic?
Kala afghana gang is expert at lying. How does kahan singh nabha comes in the picture here?
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Was Bhai Kahan Singh Naba a naastic?
Kala afghana gang is expert at lying. How does kahan singh nabha comes in the picture here?
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ਅਥ ਦੇਵੀ ਜੂ ਕੀ ਉਸਤਤ ਕਥਨੰ ॥
Now begins the description in praise of the goddess
Read it carefully. It is a metaphor for akal purakh. So it is not Devi ji ki ustat but ustat of akal purakh.
We read in SGGS ji
Gurmukh sang krishan murari
Krishan murari reasied with gurmukh.
ang 98
So a fool if he wants to pick a fight can very well say that the reference is to hindu god krishna.
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A general question, and something I picked up from the debate with Guru Da Sikh.
As a neutral and outsider, I observed Guru Da Sikh trying to debate in a rational manner, where everyone else just behaved like the "m o r o n i c" fools at sikhsangat and proceeded to attack the person rather than debate.
What is it with the mentality of some people here?
Some of the points on both sides made sense in between the diatribe. As a neutral, I have become even more intrigued to find out what Kala Afghana has written. So the Yaah booh crowd have actually done the complete opposite of what they wanted.
Some of the points made are no different to what I have read or believe.
1) What is wrong with a religion that concentrates on moral conduct rather than miracles and magic? I believe their were no miracles in Sikhi, am I heretic?
2) What if Afghana disagrees with some things? Bandha Bahdhur changed the Sikh salutation to "Fateh Darshan". Should we excommunicate him?
3) Groups like AKJ, GNNSJ, DDT, Raroanwalay changes definitions and practices in Sikhi as they see fit, shouldn't they be excommunicated? I really see no difference between Afghana people from tehse other groups.
4) Is Sikhi that intolerant that we cannot embrace diversity?
5) Are we in the process of creating an elite-Brahman type group in Sikhi that lays down the law, and everyone else is declared a heretic?
6) I don't believe all of Dasam Granth was penned by the 10th Master, but I consider it a valuable Sikh manuscript. Am I heretic too?
7) When people call for Afghanist's to be killed, what do outsiders think of us?
Sikhism does lays a great emphasis on moral conduct. That is why a thief like kala afghana is condemned.
Do not compare Baba Banda singh with a rapist and thug kala afghana.
These are the organizations who have sacrificed immensely for sikh panth whenever there was a need for it. Can you expect a traitor like kala afghana or darshan Ragi to sacrifice for sikhi. these are paid agents of Brahmins.
Sikh religion is regulated by Akal takhat. Please ask them this question. Anything that ridicules our Gurus philosophy is condemnable.
heretics are heretics. they flout the rehat maryada.
Of course you are. What methodolgy you used to arrive at your decision about Dasam granth. Line out here. Have you read dasam Granth?
No one has said like that.
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Those who write that Guru sahib believed in devi devtas of Hindus should read this
ਚੌਪਈ ॥
चौपई ॥
CHAUPAI
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿਕ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਪਚਹਾਰੇ ॥
ब्रहमादिक सभ ही पचहारे ॥
Brahma and others have got tired in knowing Thy end;
ਬਿਸਨ ਮਹੇਸ੍ਵਰ ਕਉਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੇ ॥
बिसन महेस्वर कउन बिचारे ॥
Who are the helpless gods Vishnu and Shiva?
ਚੰਦ ਸੂਰ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਰੇ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ ॥
चंद सूर जिनि करे बिचारा ॥
The sun and moon also meditate on Thee;
ਤਾ ਤੇ ਜਨੀਯਤ ਹੈ ਕਰਤਾਰਾ ॥੧੪॥
ता ते जनीयत है करतारा ॥१४॥
Therefore Thou art known as the Creator.14.
Chaubis avtar, Dasam granth
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Bipran ki Reet comes from Amrit Kirtan attributed to Dasam Patshah ! if that is what you are eluding too !
A total lie. Even kala afghana does not know where is bipran ki reet. This was asked from him. He was found blinkering.
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Guru da sikh wrote
So what you are saying is that the complete chapter translations written by Dasam Granth believers, when starts to project Guru Gobind Singh as worshipping Devi, Devtas, Shiva, other deities, is NOT in COMPLETE CONTEXT and Giani Takhur Singh, who will only recite a certain stanza knows the COMPLETE meaning of it ! Can you see the flaw in your argument?Where are those sections where Guru ji has venerated Hindu gods and Goddesses. can you show us?
You need to understand Dasam granth before levelling such baseless allegations.
Dasam granth is a combination of various compositions. There are banis that are dedicated to Akal Purakh. There are banis taken from Markandey puranas, Bhagwat puranas and skand Puranas. These have been altered per sikh philosophy and characters of these devi and devtas have been altered. They are shown under the command of akal purakh and not supreme powers as shown in Hidnu texts.
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Looks guys, do your own analysis of Dasam Granth. It becomes quite apparent that there are some sections that are penned by the 10th Master, but their are other sections that are not.
There are metaphors in there, and there is no evidence that Guruji believed in multiple armed Goddesses/Gods either.
A complete ridiculous theory put forward. There is no section of dasam granth where there is veneration of any hindu gods and Goddesses. We want a reference.
Meaning of Mahakaal Shabad?
in Formal Debates & Discussions
Posted
Another lie. Charitras are in a dialogue form between a king and his minister. So any refrences in those cann't be interpreted as a teaching of dasam granth.
In Hindu mythology Mahakal is a reference to Lord Shiva. In Charitra 266 to which khalsa fauj seems to refer to deduce
mahakal. But in this charitra Shiv is refered as Rudar or shiva. For example Lady says to idol worshipper Brahmin
Tahan rudar aihan ke sri krishan aihain
Jahan bandh sri kal teko chale hain
( Will Hindu God shiva or krishna will come to your aid ?
when Lord of death will take you)
The lady is telling Brahmin not to have any faith in these demi Gods. She tells Brahmin about mahakal
Nahin jan jaee kachhu roop rekha
( It cann't be known about His color, image and residence)
So obviously mahakal is great kal or descructive name of God. This charitra shows trickery of the lady wherein she condemns the idol worshipper Brahmin.
Lastly this refrence of mahakal in the scanned page in no way defines mahakal as a Hindu deity. Meanings of mahakal is given by Bhai kahan singh ji Nabha in Mahan kosh. Read below
ਮਹਾਕਾਲ - (ਸੰਗਯਾ) (1) ਕਾਲ ਦਾ ਭੀ ਕਾਲ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ. ਯਮ ਸ਼ਿਵ ਆਦਿ ਜਗਤ ਦਾ ਅੰਤ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਭੀ ਜਿਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਲੈ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ. ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ।ਪਾਰਭ੍ਰਹਮ।''ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਰਖਵਾਰ ਹਮਾਰੋ'' (ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾਵਤਾਰ). (2) ਉਹ ਲੰਮਾ ਸਮਾਂ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਅੰਤ ਅਸੀਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਣ ਸਕਦੇ।(3) ਸਮੇਂ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਕਰਤਾ ਹਰਤਾ ਮੰਨਣ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਮਤ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਅਨੰਤ ਰੂਪ ਕਾਲ।...''ਗਯਾਨ ਹੂੰ ਕੇ ਗਯਾਤਾ ਮਹਾ ਬੁੱਧਿਤਾ ਕੇ ਦਾਤਾ ਦੇਵ, ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕੇ ਕਾਲ ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕਾ ਕਾਲ ਹੌਂ'' (ਅਕਾਲ ਉਸਤਤ)
('ਮਹਾਨ ਕੋਸ਼' ਭਾਈ ਕਾਹਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਭਾ)