Satgyan-pujari

On 11 November 2015 at 18:37:22, Satgyan-pujari said:

 

 

Thanks Paapiman for the reply .

Again I reiterate that I am aware of the instances where Bhai Gurdas Ji speaks of Guru Maharaj as Sargun swarup Akal Purkh.

The question primarily is a reflection on pauries 23/24 of Vaar1, which  "appear" to contradict this. To remove doubts regarding the two stances , maybe someone could elaborate and put these pauries into context. I was hoping maybe tSingh or N30 could possibly share their views regarding these specific pauries mentioned.

Bhul Chuk maaf 

I have revisited this topic, and find it extremely helpful and thought provoking.

The question that tsingh provided in his post "Who is your Guru" is I agree a pivotal one, for anyone following Sikhism. Of the two positions regarding Guru Maharaj as "Sargun Wahiguru" as opposed to "Prophet/Perfect Saint", I personally fall into the first category. 

Of the Vaars as expounded by Bhai Gurdas Ji, which primarily confirm the traditional view of the continuity and manifestation of Guru Maharaj as Sargun swarup Wahiguru, I find Vaar1 pauries 23/24 challenging my understanding of this fact. These pauries appear to indicate that Guru Nanak was sent by God and was blessed to teach the Truth of Naam and Bhakti to suffering humanity, after intense devotion and tapasya. 

Could the learned members on this forum please put these pauries in the context of Guru being God himself, and remove any doubts to the traditional understanding 

Vaar1 p23 

ਸੁਣੀ ਪੁਕਾਰਿ ਦਾਤਾਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਗ ਮਾਹਿ ਪਠਾਇਆ

The benefactor Lord listened to the cries (of humanity) and sent Guru Nanak to this world

ਚਰਨ ਧੋਇ ਰਹਰਾਸਿ ਕਰਿ ਚਰਣਾਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਿਖਾਂ ਪੀਲਾਇਆ।

He washed His feet, eulogised God and got his Disciples drink the ambrosia of his feet.

Vaar1 p24

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਬਾਬੇ ਪਾਯਾ ਬਖਸੁ ਦਰਿ ਪਿਛੋ ਦੇ ਫਿਰਿ ਘਾਲਿ ਕਮਾਈ।

First of all Baba Nanak obtained the gate of the grace (of Lord) and then He underwent and earned the rigorous discipline( of heart and mind).

ਰੇਤੁ ਅਕੁ ਆਹਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਰੋੜਾ ਕੀ ਗੁਰ ਕਰੀ ਵਿਛਾਈ।

He fed himself with sand and swallow-wort and made stones his bedding i.e. he enjoyed poverty too.

ਭਾਰੀ ਕਰੀ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਵਡੇ ਭਾਗੁ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਬਣਿ ਆਈ।

Trying to find links to the digitised Steek uploads for Dasam Granth Sahib by Pandit Narain Singh.

I believe they were uploaded by Prabhjot Singh in past and I only managed to download the first two volumes. I believe there are 8 volumes in total.

Can anyone help?

Thanks in advance.

BhagatSingh

Most of the audio and literature with reference to these topics will be found on this site

http://www.gurmatveechar.com

All views and opinions are very welcome and helpful.

I would like to reiterate that the purpose of the discussion is to increase our knowledge of Gurmat Siddhant, by investigating the traditional philosophies and explanations so we may get a fuller picture of our great heritage.

This is done to reinforce our faith and make us stronger, whilst opening the buddhi to the deeper adyatamic truths contained within Gurmat.

The differences in Siddhant are debated so as to identify the necessity of the Guru's message and teachings, in order to clarify the doctrinal elements specific to our Marg within Sikhi. The purpose is a positive one, and not taken solely to argue contradictions or debate superiority of various traditions and religions.

GurFateh

BhagatSingh

Thanks for your opinions, I do agree there are views in relation to Vishistadvait that could be applied to Gurmat. However the majority of information (i.e Baba Thakur Singh Ji, Baba Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal, Baba Isher Singh JI Rara Sahib to name a few), I have discovered seem to point towards Advait as the accepted traditional interpretation of the philosophical teaching within Gurmat.

The question was how Gurmat Advait Siddhant in relation to Vedanta Advaita holds, and what particular teachings and practices differentiate the two.

Your views and comments are appreciated and welcomed to continue this interesting debate.

Thank-you for the introduction to this subject N30 brother,

I look forward to hearing the detailed explanation as promised by yourself. I sincerely hope the learned Sikhs of Guru Maharaj you have mentioned, also share their knowledge and views on this topic.

GurFateh

Happy New Year to all fellow brothers and sisters on the forum.

This subject may have been discussed on earlier posts, however on initial search I did not find the information.

Traditional schools of thought in Advaita Vedanta and Gurmat as I interpret share very similar views so my question is, what the particular Siddhant of Gurmat is in relation to Adi Shankara, and the core differences that Gurmat establishes and teaches.

I appreciate the advice of all the learned members on this forum.

Fateh.

There are many posts, most of them made way back, by some of Niddar Singh's original students on this site to back up what Chatanga wrote. You'd be surprised at some of the stuff those lot got up to and the consequences their actions / behaviour had on a large number of young people trying to find their way in Sikhi.

Anyway, this topic seems to have run its course but will leave it open for a few more days - until the next time I'm near civilisation.

However posts made way back by a few individuals, is hardly justification to brand all Nihangs on this forum with accusations and insults.

I am willing to listen to reasoned and intelligent debate, and to change my views in light of superior supporting arguments, however this cannot be achieved through harsh words and insults.

We are all on a road of discovery and forums of this type are an invaluable tool to learn, discuss and with the Will of Akal Purakh bring us closer to Sikhi, which at the end of the day should be our only aspiration.

WJKK WJKF

apologies i meant nihangs on this forum.

Still not all Nihangs on this forum dis-respect Sant Ji. Really, you seem too intelligent to make these kind of accusations.

Please don't let your personal grievance cloud your judgement.

Anyway which Nihangs on this forum have insulted Sant Jarnail Singh ji, please back this up with the quotes or retract the accusation.

i know that you Nihangs dont agree with Sant Jarnail Singhs role, but you still disrespect him.

Don't make sweeping statements, not all Nihangs disrespect Sant Jarnail Singh ji.

Pujari ji, I didn't make any recordings but people like Gyani Gurdev Singh Ji are easy enough to get in touch with in Southall, so things can easily be verified.

As far as general Nihang beliefs vs Niddar Singh's beliefs are concerned, again Baba Surjeet Singh Ji and Baba Joginder Singh Ji can be easily contacted to set things straight. Infact, one of Niddar SIngh Ji's ex-students did post some recordings of Buddha Dal Mahapurkhs that refuted most of the claims made on the sites in question - think it was Kamalroop Singh, but it's been a long time.

If MahaSingh ji has the recordings, then he should put them up.

They are directed towards the webmaster of his sites. I've actually asked Niddar Singh about this before, now I'm 4000 miles away so it's not that easy.

Matheen (i will use your full forum name out of respect) i don't doubt your meetings with these Baba's, i was just observing the fact that had you recorded these statements your claims would have been validated.

If MahaSingh does have the said audio recordings, which i also don't doubt, then he has a stronger case in support of his evidence.

Also to the last point you made it may help if you contact the webmasters directly to ascertain answers to your questions.

If you had just accepted that you were misquoting KGM then there was no need to have gone through all of that.

Also the apology and concession i made was to the wording of my original quote,accepting the criticism of Chatanga1 and yourself in the way that it could be open to interpretation and lacking clarity in the thought i wished to convey i.e,

"...Blaming Nihang Singhs and Niddar Singh of the attack on Darbar Sahib 84, is the new low these people are prepared to stoop".

This apology is in no way directed to KGM and should not be seen as a vindication of his highly ambiguous and insulting post, directed at all modern day Nihang practitioners of a puratan sampardaya.

I still maintain he should clarify and explain the accusations and blame he is directing at this sampardaya in relation to the incidents surrounding 1984, and in any case apologize for the nindiya and insults contained in the post.

That above quote from KGM pretty much sums up when most Sikhs think of Nihangs. Just because you place them on some pedestal doesn't mean the rest of the Sikhs do. Did the Nihangs under Santa Singh not betray the Sikhs in 1984? You can spin the events of 1984 all you like but the cold hard fact is that he sided with Indira Gandhi against the Sikhs. You can go through life wearing blinkers with regard to this issue but acting like one of the three wise monkeys wont change the facts.

Baba Santa Singh obviously had his reasons for the decisions he made, he may have thought that Darbar Sahib was not strategically or militarily an ideal location to confront the Indian army due to calculating the possible damage of this highly religious and sacred place of pilgrimage, or to put innocent worshippers and pilgrims in the line of fire. He also may have considered other facts resulting in his actions as Jathedar.

Also he took the sewa of cleaning the Darbar premises after the attack and cremating the bodies of all the Shaheed Sikhs. and undertaking the controversial re-building of the Akal Takhat.

Although Baba Santa Singh made his decisions, he did not think himself too big to ask for forgiveness and be labelled a tankayia, humbling himself infront of the Panth if they deemed his actions inappropriate. Surely a sign of a great man.

What sewa Baba Santa Singh performed in his life and role as Jathedar, you or i could not perform in many lives. Stop insulting this mahpurush with your extreme one sided attacks on Nihangs.

The last comment you made should be recited by yourself in front of a mirror as you may profit from your own words.

Ok, i am going to compromise and concede that my initial post,

"...Blaming Nihang Singhs and Niddar Singh of the attack on Darbar Sahib 84, is the new low these people are prepared to stoop".

was open to interpretation, and the views of especially Chatanga1 and followed up by Tonyhp32 were valid in their criticism. However this was not the thought i was intending to convey and the subsequent posts were what i was trying to articulate.

"... You continue to state, what i keep refuting, again i NEVER once mention KGM stated Nihangs were resposible for bluestar, i have re-iterated this on a number of occasions due to your mis-interpretation. Again i said he APPORTIONED BLAME, re- incidents surrounding 1984 attack on Darbar Sahib."

I apologize if i have offended anyone during the defence of my initial quote.

This of course still means that i believe KGM was wrong in the way he made accusations and put blame at the door of Nihangs in an insulting and degrading way. I feel he should retract those comments or offer a fuller explanation of his views.

Let me remind you of KGM's post,

...you lost your role as a Ladli Fauj in 1984!!..When you abandoned the Kaum in their time of need....it will take decades or even more before you are forgiven for this betrayal!!...the blood of our Kharkoo Shaheeds is also on your hands!!....the Nangs moan why the present Nihangs have such a bad reputation amongst the Sikh Nation...they say they are misunderstood...Your not!!...your present situation is well deserved!....

Serious accusations, open to interpretation don't you think?

Attack on Darbar Sahib in 1984 = Operation Bluestar

You've been caught out Koorgyan-Pujari!

No, tonyhp32 or is it KGM you've been caught out, stop lying and insulting and accept your mistakes. Your accusations are getting boring already.

Kindly read the subsequent emails, in which i try to explain my position and your or your mates rude and derogatory post. If you do not wish to accept the clarification of my first post that is your own shortcomming, grow up.

You do nothing but make yourself look silly and narrow minded by defending a post that is clearly full of nindiya, and continue to add more nindiya and insults in your defence of it.

Now let the thread continue ie Shaster Vidya Website, and stop your nonsense!

There's no doubt that if Matheen produced these tape recordings, the Nangs will claim either that they are fakes or that these Babay are making counter statements as they do not want to 'rock the boat'. This kind of denial is a trait in all cults. Once people have brought the guppan hook like and sinker then they are loathe to use their common sense. A good example of this is the way you, Satgyan-Pujari ( you are a pujari of something but it certainly isn't satgyan!) cannot accept that you have been caught out LYING about the views of KGM.

Your explanation that the above does not BLAME NIHANGS AND NIDDAR FOR BLUESTAR is -;

What a joke!

No my freind you are the joke, for you continue to divert attention from your mate KGM's blatant nindiya filled insulting post, by insisting to interpret my post into words and imaginations of your own.

If my first post wasn't clear enough then the effort to explain in subsequent posts should have been pretty clear, but obviously you don't want to accept my clarification,but are intent on wanting to defend KGM by insulting me.

The only one blatantly LYING is YOU, as in post #45 you actually admit that i never mentioned "bluestar" once. Stop your false accusations, accept your mistake and get your mate to defend himself.

There are some quotes attributed to Gyani Gurdev Singh Ji which he says he didn't make. A few others as well - went to the trouble of finding some of the Babas some years ago(when these things mattered to me) during trips to Raqba etc and they said the same. Will make a list when I have the time/inclination, but to be honest, I've realised we have bigger things to worry about.

Do the sites still state that Bhai Niddar Singh is Jathedar of Buddha Dal in the UK and does Niddar Singh still say he has no control over the site content?

Matheen ji, do you also have audio recordings of these Baba's saying what you state?

If you don't and MahaSingh ji does, then maybe you should have made such recordings to prove your claims.

If you want to know the questions you ask at the end, maybe you should go and see Niddar Singh personally and put them to him.

i have bolded what you posted earlier. There is only 1 way this sentence can be taken.

Then maybe you can see all subsequent emails in the same light and boldness, to clarify exactly what was meant by this statement .You seem to have "read to much into it" and "put words into my mouth".

Just because YOU, "can only take this sentence in 1 way", and add your mis-interpretation of it even though i have tirelessly tried to explain my stance, is your shortcoming.

Now stop going round in circles, accept KGM was out of line in his accusations, insults and nindiya aimed at all present day Nihangs and move on.

I don't know why you narrow mindedly attempt to divert attention from that provocative and blatantly insulting post by KGM, and continually try to defend and support that derogatory post.

Again and please note-

... You continue to state, what i keep refuting, again i NEVER once mention KGM stated Nihangs were resposible for bluestar, i have re-iterated this on a number of occasions due to your mis-interpretation. Again i said he APPORTIONED BLAME, re- incidents surrounding 1984 attack on Darbar Sahib.

yes i can see his insults or his views very clearly. but i cant see what you wrote that he, KGM said that Nihangs were responsible for operation bluestar.

Whether or not he means it, he "actually" has not written it. When and if he should write it, then we can discuss it, but why put words in his mouth.

You continue to state, what i keep refuting, again i NEVER once mention KGM stated Nihangs were resposible for bluestar, i have re-iterated this on a number of occasions due to your mis-interpretation. Again i said he APPORTIONED BLAME, re- incidents surrounding 1984 attack on Darbar Sahib.

Please stop mis-quoting my post and "putting words into my mouth", especially as i have continually clarified the stance of my post.

Oh, and maybe as you seem to have seen his "actual" insults, accusations and nindya of present day Nihangs, did you not seem fit to ask him to be "big enough" to accept his errors?

I have highlighted my interpretation clearly (again), so no need to keep going round in circles.

WJKK WJKFji

According to some scholars Dasam granth was taken out of akal takht in 1940s and it was understood that this establishes raj yog for the sikh panth. For whatever reason the sgpc and all 5 takhts agree that dasam granth is bani, and that only a sikh can believe it anyone who challenges it is tankhian. There will never be khalsa raj until dasam granth is put back in akal takht. What can we do to have dasam granth put back into the akal takht?

WJKK WJKFji

Good question veerji, maybe the Singh Sabha Reformist Sikhs can shed some light on the reasons and causes of these events, and what actions should be implemented to reverse them.

I am NOT defending him, i just cannot see his wording the same way you have.

OK fair enough, but can you not see the wording in the form of nindiya insults or accusations either or is that, not what he "actually" means as well?

Maybe its time for specsavers brother ! ( just joking, no offence intended )

brother, you are reading too much into what KGM said, he has never said, nor have i ever heard anyone else say or insinuate that Nihangs or Dal Panth were responsible for the actual attack.

You are telling us about what KGM actually meant, but i feel this is a reflection on yourself, not KGM.

Be big enough to admit you have made a mistake.

Bhaji, i will again reiterate i have never stated that KGM said Nihangs were responsible for the actual attack re-84, only that he apportioned blame. I have personally continually stated this so that my posts are not mis-interpreted.

If i have mis-interpreted what KGM wrote i genuinely do apologize, but writing such inflammatory material full of accusations targeted at Nihangs and clearly mentioning 1984 in its content, is in itself something that should warrant an apology.

If KGM didn't actually mean what i interpreted, then maybe he is the only one who can set the record straight and explain his derogatory post which i highlighted.

What i find remarkable is how the post full of nindya and insults of all present day Nihangs by KGM is supported and defended, and i am asked to apologize for alleged mis-interpreting its contents.

You might not have mentioned Bluestar by name but what was the-;

Stop digging and admit your error and move on.

Exactly, good to see you admit what I didn't quote.

Yes, the blaming and accusations targeted at Nihangs and Niddar Singh by KGM in his abusive, insulting and highly provocative post (see post#40), in direct reference of the events surrounding 1984 is something he has to account for.

The error is of KGM, it is him who should explain what he meant by making such inflammatory accusations, not for people like yourself and others, second guessing what he "actually" meant.

If KGM didn't actually mean what he had written and retracts his accusations levied against Nihangs re-84, I will gladly admit my error.

Is telling lies about what someone has written, in this case KhalistaniGunman a way to greater unity? You accused his specifically of blaming Nihangs and Niddar for Bluestar so either place the quote here or accept that in your eagerness to badmouth SikhSangat you got carried away. I agree wholeheartedly with his KGM's views as quoted by you. He is right that Nihangs after 1984 had a very bad rep amongst Sikhs as well and it will be a cold day in hell before you see uk nangs fighting for the Panth.

The badmouthing and your defence of it is by KGM, and again I reiterate the accusations made by KGM in his post. I am only highlighting the post made, I haven't mentioned bluestar once, thats only your imagination.

Your dislike of ,as you put it "uk nangs" is colouring your judgement and causing the eagerness in supporting the inflammatory post by KGM. If you "wholeheartedly" agree with KGM's views you also subscribe to the disunity of the Panth and nindya of Nihangs made bi KGM, hardly something to boast about.