GuptSingh1699

Those questions are still valid. JvalaSingh, those are no answers.

When was Sarbloh Granth written? 1698 as some Nihangs say? Or In Guru's previous life and digged up later on? Both are fake.

Sarbloh Granth was written by Sukha Singh Patna.

But so it is proven that the phereh thingy wasn't started by Guru Ji... I am not against reading Raag Suhi Lavaan, but phereh seem Brahmanvaad to me. Guru Granth Sahib is not an idol.

What does Prem Sumarg say? (Its oldest copy is only from 1800 tho)

I have read it in his own words. I make nothing up.

No one is denying ANAND KARAJ ceremony here.

There is no doubt Sikhs used to get married by Anand Karaj ceremony... As is also evident from Mukatnama which is said to have been uttered by Guru Ji and also from several other Puratan works.

Question is, HOW was it done?

In Guru Granth Sahibs presence?

Around fire?

Lavaan read? Some say that Lavaan is not even about a marriage but about the soul...

Phereh? (taking 4 tours, one after each laav)

How was Anand Karaj done in Guru's times? The Bani was read in a Dharamshala and thats it?

Isn't the taking rounds around SGGS more of a Brahminised thing? Nirankaris say they started it (later on, after Sikh Gurus), which is right.

Please don't mind and discuss from a Gurmat/Historical perspective.

It's about dharm vs adharm, but there are also battle tactics hidden within the stories. Another reason is for bir-ras and to mentally prepare the Khalsa for battle. There is a great quote by Sant Jarnail Singh Ji speaking about Dasam Granth, I odn't remember the exact words (on here somewhere) but they say that every page resounds with the clashing of swords, roaring of jaikarey etc. We generally have soft hearts, so to nurture the sipahi side, Guru Sahib gave us Dasam Bani.

Oh was Krishan fighting against Adharm with Gopis in water?

Stories are stories and Dhur Ki Bani is Ilahi Bani.

Can you elaborate on this please?

Gyani Gyan Singh got really sick and there were no chances that he would survive. Bhai Vir Singh along others coexed Gyani Gyan Singh into signing all his (unpublished) works to his society and also promised a pension of 12 rupees a month. Nothing less than a miracle, Gyan Gyan Singh started to get well... Alas it was too late... His expunged articles were published by Bhai Vir Singh in his newspapers. Gyani Gyan Singh tried to get back his effort filled material for 17 years, but most of it had been published, lost or destroyed.

Bhai Vir Singh Jee was not only a great scholar, writer, poet but also a Singh who did a lot of Bhagti. He has had spiritual experiences and translated Gurbani in light of his spiritual experiences and great knowledge.

Spiritual experiences for stealing others works?

Muslims are a bigger threat than Goras in most European countries. UK might be an exception.

Anyways why argue who is the bigger enemy if both are enemies?

An enemy is an enemy, no matter big or small... It will alway try to hurt you.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Bhai Vir Singh did some nice jobs. I have read that he DID edit out various portions of Panth Parkash. Howhever he only put footnotes in Suraj Prakash Granth.

Bhai Vir Singh was not really a great Gursikh, as he stole works of Gyani Gian Singh and published them as articles. Not really what a Gursikh would do.

Chandi thing is anti Gurmat, whether its stated in Puratan work or not. Not all Puratan works are authentic, most have been tampered with and some other wrote with other agendas.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Interesting topic.

What about doing Seva of putting All Puratan Birs in the world in Cyber format. I mean scanning or taking pics and putting in PDF formats. And look into their history aswell, their authenticity etc. By this work will be easier. I don't think SGPC will bother doing anything, all they are concerned with is Maya.

The Salok is in Bhai Mani Singh's bir under Patshahi 10 and in Baba Deep Singh's as Mahalla 10. There are many such birs, howhever many perished during Operation Blue Star. The earliest Teeka of SGGS by Gyani Badan Singh also mentions this.

Kam, awaiting to read your articles.

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all!

Please come back to the topic.

The following is the example number five.

ਸਯਾਮ ਭਨੈ ਅਤਿ ਆਹਵ ਮੈ ਮੁਸਲੀ ਅਰੁ ਭੂਪਤ ਕੋਪ ਭਰੇ ਹੈ ॥ ਆਪਸ ਬੀਚ ਹਕਾਰ ਦੋਊ ਭਟ ਚਿੱਤ ਬਿਖੈ ਨਹੀ ਨੈਕ ਡਰੇ ਹੈ ॥

सयाम भनै अति आहव मै मुसली अरु भूपत कोप भरे है ॥ आपस बीच हकार दोऊ भट चित बिखै नही नैक डरे है ॥

According to the poet, both Balram and Jarashand are full of rage in the war-arena; both are challenging one another and are not afraid of the other even slightly;

My curiosity is to know in which dictionary the word Sayaam means the poet as mentioned in the above translation.

Balbir Singh

Balbir Singh, enemy of wisdom. Read following translations of the KUB / POET identifying himself.

Beer Douhoo Diss Kay Kub Shyam Mukh Ouppar Dhaalan Ko Dhurr Jootay| Baan

Kmaan Dhray Muthsaan Aaparmaan Juaanan Kay Run Shootay| ...| 11|

Poet Shyam says, warriors from both sides were dueling with others using their shields.

Strong warriors were firing countless arrows with their bows. … 11.

So you are not only a liar but also a shameless fellow. Read what you had written about sunny.

From earlier post of Fauji

Lies,deception,dual IDs. That is what you learn from SGGS ji?

Prove it by showing name of poet shyam in Bhagwata purana?

Is Charitar talk all you learn from DG ?

Poet Shyam doesn't occur in Bhagwat Puran because Poet Shyam is the one adapting Bhagwat Puran.

Read it and you'll see.

Again DeraWadi translations.

What about:

Ang 759

Satgur Mera Sadaa Sadaa

Na Ave Na Jaye

Oh Abhinaasi Purakh Hai

Sabh Mein Reha Samaaye

My True Guru, forever and ever,

does not come and go.

He is the Imperishable Creator Lord;

He is permeating and pervading among all.

BTW, You can understand that without translations as well.

Inder, Read Bhagwat Puran and you will know.

Anti Gurmat stuff? Does god incarnate?

ਤਬ ਤਬ ਦੇਹ ਧਰਤ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ ॥

तब तब देह धरत अवतारा ॥

Then the Lord manifests himself in physical form;

Page 413 from Dasam Granth. Waheguru does not come nor go according to Gurmat.

Balbir, open chariter 110.

Beer Douhoo Diss Kay Kub Shyam Mukh Ouppar Dhaalan Ko Dhurr Jootay| Baan

Kmaan Dhray Muthsaan Aaparmaan Juaanan Kay Run Shootay| ...| 11|

Poet Shyam says, warriors from both sides were dueling with others using their shields.

Strong warriors were firing countless arrows with their bows. … 11.

He clearly says KUB SHYAM. Kub means Poet and SHYAM is SHYAM. Enemy of wisdom... Don't you see that?

That is a lie. We are discussing poet shyam in context of krishna avtar. Show us where he wrote anti gurmat?

Poet Shyam is writer of Dasam Granth. He worshipped 4 armed Mahakaal. That is an attack on MOOL MANTAR - essence of Guru Granth Sahib Ji - itself. Mool Mantar says Waheguru is Ajooni. It says Waheguru is Akaal Moorat... Then from where do these 4 arms, anklets, etc come from? The poet worshipping a four armed creation is already enough anti Gurmat stuff.

A total lie.show us the following in Hindu granth

ਧੰਨ ਜੀਓ ਤਿਹ ਕੋ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਮੁਖ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਚਿੱਤ ਮੈ ਜੁਧੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥ ਦੇਹ ਅਨਿੱਤ ਨ ਨਿੱਤ ਰਹੈ ਜਸੁ ਨਾਵ ਚੜੈ ਭਵਸਾਗਰ ਤਾਰੈ ॥

धंन जीओ तिह को जग मै मुख ते हरि चि्त मै जुधु बिचारै ॥ देह अनि्त न नि्त रहै जसु नाव चड़ै भवसागर तारै ॥

Bravo to the soul of that person, who remembers the Lord through his mouth and reflects in his mind about the war of righteousness; who considers this body the war of righteousness; who considers this body as transient, ascends the boat of Lords` praise and ferries across the dreadful ocean of the world;

It is BASED on Bhagwat Puran. Read it, understand it and you will see! The Bible says that one shouldn't indulge in adultery, this doesn't mean that it is Gurbani, same way few things in accordance to Gurmat doesn't make it Gurbani.

1)Can you tell us who was poet shyam if not Guru ji

He was some person. I am not interested in his life as he wrote anti Gurmat stuff.

2) You claim having read krishna avtar.When you say krishna avtar is translated from bhagwat puranas. What does it exactly mean

It means what it means. translation = translation. What part of that word is difficult to understand?

trans⋅la⋅tion

  /trænsˈleɪʃən, trænz-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [trans-ley-shuhn, tranz-] Show IPA

–noun

1. the rendering of something into another language or into one's own from another language.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/translation

I am not fooled one bit by that. Why? Because I have read Krishan Avtar.

When Gurbani says KAHAI NANAK, its third person, isn't that the Guru Sahibaan?

You have a flawed logic.

a person an author or a good kave a good vidvaan never ever change da theme or katha when he is coping frm another granth

What other Granth written by Krishan are you talking about? If you had enough Gyaan, you would know that it is based on Bhagwat Puran. I would rather urge you to read Bhagwat Puran itself that Poet Shyams edited translations of it. You guys really love third party stuff, don't ya?

What about all the other puratan sampardas? What are your academic qualifications to state that oral tradition is not acceptable in a debate? In some cultures, they have only oral sources. If groups in different areas, but originating from the same source, all preach the same thing then it points to the validity of the claim. There are groups of Sikhs who left India in the 1800s and settled in parts of Africa etc and they follow the same.

Who is the panth? The majority of our community drink and cut their kesh. If they used the power of numbers to come to power and declare themselves the panth and say it is ok to cut kesh and there is no need for Amrit, then is that a decision by 'Guru Panth'?

No Sikh who loves his Guru would even think of challanging his hukam.

By the way, what is your reference that shows Panth has the same status as Guru? So you're saying you have two Gurus - Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the Panth?

In Dasam Bani, Guru Ji has given maan to his Sikhs, especially 5 Singhs, but they must be true Singhs. In th elast 300 years, we have true Mahapurkhs ( wouldn't be much of a religion if following it didn't lead to higher avasthas)and scholars and none have ever said anything against Dasam Bani. Now we get fools who haven't studied the languages used in Gurbani or how to interpret them and they have the nerve to challange Guru Sahib's institutions.

Where do you live, we'll come do a Dasam Darbar program there as well? Then you can come stop us. Better still, next time you're in India, visit a Nihang Chaunni or HAzur Sahib and tell them what they should be doing.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Oral sources say a lot of stuff. Give me Puratan WRITTEN sources. I don't care about other cultures, for me only thing that matters is Sikhi and Sikh Itihas. Group of Sikhs in Africa doing same since 1900s? Which country, city and give their Gurdwara(s) address.

You make no sense. Community is not equal to Panth. I think you are talking about the Punjabi community rather than Sikh Panth.

Yes. Guru's hukam is IKA BANI IK GUR IKO SHABAD VEECHAR. SHABAD GURU SURAT DHUN CHELA. BANI GURU GURU HAI BANI. ~~ You do not seem to follow that.

Aren't the 5 Pyaras form of Guru?

Mahapurkhs? Some of your MahaPurkhs were pro Raagmala some were Anti. Many other differences. Who was right? "MahaPurkhs" aren't my Guru, Guru is Guru Granth Sahib. DG contradicting Guru Granth Sahib can NOT be 10th Nanak's writings.

Yes next time and I get oppertunity, I'll surely meet Nihangs. No need to do here. You won't get many DG Chelas.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Garja Singh is also known as Mota Singh in some Puratan works.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

GuptSingh,

Mata Sundar Kaur Ji adopted a son and called him Ajit Singh, to remind her of Shaheed Baba Ajit Singh Ji.

This adopted Ajit Singh had a son named Hathi Singh.

Adopted son Ajit Singh died a bemukh for turning his back on MataJi, cutting his kesh, and declaring himself the Guru.

I know there was an adopted son called Ajit Singh Paalit. But Bhatt Vahis said SAHIBZADA Ajit Singh had a son. Ajit Singh Palit was never a Sahibzada. Only 4 sons of Guru Ji were Sahibzada's. Other adopted sons like Zorawar Singh Palit (martyred in battle) and Ajit Singh Palit weren't Sahibzadas.

Guptsingh, I suggest you take a course in poetry or literature which will help you interpret Guru Sahib's writings.

Sri Gur Katha is not a newly discovered text. However, in addition to it are the traditions of traditional sampardas such as the Nihangs etc who have been following the same routine at Amrit Sanchars since 1699. ALL traditional sampardas read and have always read 5 BAnis during Amrit Sanchar. They developed in different parts of India yet the Maryada is vrtually the same.

The oral traditions passed down over the generations (only a few in 300 years) also back this up.

Can you show me a written reference to Guru Ji giving authority to the panth to change this? Why would they change it anyway - the power comes from the BAnis that are read? If you are in the UK, there is going to be a Dasam Bani Darbar to celebrate the parkash divas of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, you are welcome to bring any questions or if you feel so strongly about it, to try and stop the parkash of Sri Dasam Granth on that day. See the poster put up by 'Shaheediyan' earlier today for details.

I don't want to take a course in poetry or literature to understand Poet Ram and Shyam's poetry.

When was Sri Gur Katha discovered then? Traditional sampardas such as Nihangs also drink Mahakaal drink (cannabis) and their oral traditions are not very reliable. How do you know they have been following same routine since 1699?

Yes, DO read 5 Banis in Amrit Sanchaar, but don't include Dasam Granth compositions. Read 5 Bani's from Guru Granth Sahib.

Oral tradition are not academically accepted in a debate.

Panth is Guru. 5 Singhs ordered Guru Ji to get out of Chamkaur Garhi, and Guru Ji obeyed that. As long as Panthic decisions are on line of Gurmat they are equal to Hukams of Guru Ji.

I am not based in UK, and I am lucky that I'm not living in a country full of DG worshippers. When time comes we will remove DG from Gurdwaras all over the world, just like we removed the idols some decades back !

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Read Sakhi number 59 of Gur Kiyaan Sakhiyaan (Bhat Vahis). This is probably the most authentic history written of our Gurus form the puraatan sources. You need to read up on history from puraatan primary sources rather than from Kala Afghanist sources. I myself a few years ago also began having doubts on Dasam Granth. Then I read Giani Harbans Singh's book on Dasam granth Banis which eventually convinced me that Dasam Granth is the bani of Guru Gobind Singh Jee. You need read and study Dasam Granth in proper context. Kala Afghanists know nothing. All they do is a 2 year correspondence course from Sikh missionary college and they think they are Gianis.

If Bhatt Vahis are authentic then you believe that Sahibzada Ajit Singh had a son?

Gur Kian Sakhian was written in 1790, 91 years after Amrit Sanchar. Tell me what other sources between those 91 years tell about the Bani's recited during the Amrit Sanchar? I can also take Bansawalinama, and say that the author's family were Diwans in Guru Ji's court and thus his account of Japji Sahib and Anand Sahib being read during Amrit Sanchar is correct. But I do not make such foolish statements.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Written two years back does not invalidate anything.He has simply consolidated his research from past archives and reproduced it.

You claim to be well read in sikh history yet you do not know rehtanamas, bhat vahis and literaure of that time.Yet you come here and utter nonsense.

What type of history you have read? or read at all?

Since you only beleive in SGGS ji it is possible you do not consider rehatnamas and sikh history as part of sikh ethos.

You are a big time joke. I ask you to give me their names. I know of their existence. I don't believe in Rehatnamas that contradict GurBani (kachehra came from Hanuman, etc). Since you are such a staunch believer of Bhatt Vahis, do you agree that Guru Gobind Singh had a grandson named Hathi Singh (son of Sahibzada Ajit Singh)? If you don't then same logic can be applied (from my part) on the 'banis recited during Amrit Sanchaar 1699'.

Gupt Singh, you aren't asking any questions that haven't already been asked and answered on this forum. Use the search function. Every few months a new member appears and reiterates stuff. Anyhow...

"Sri Gur Katha" - Bhai Jaita Ji, pre 1708. The same Bhai Jaita who brought Guru Tegh Bahadur ji's head from Delhi.

Why can't you apply the same logic to Mahakal. Or even look at the literal meaning of the word. As you said above, Waheguru destroys everything.

If you think you know it all, then you are already lost. If you have an open mind and are willing to learn for yourself, then study the languages Guru Ji used, study the Granth and make up your own mind instead of acting as the mouthpiece for heretical self-appointed scholars.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Sri Gur Katha was discovered only recently. Any research has been conducted upon its authenticity? NO, so don't talk about that document to me. There is much chance that you never ever have seen it yourself, but your talking of it because of some posts of Bijla Singh.

Same logic WILL BE APPLIED on Mahakaal, once you show me ATLEAST 1 PLACE IN SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI that uses MAHAKAAL for Waheguru.

I have an open mind, that why I am anti DG. I am not the mouthpiece of anyone.

Matheen ji

These people are dumb and hence unable to understand the meaning of mahakal.

God is formless and has no name. But he has been given functional names both in

SGGs ji and dasam Granth.

Guru ji makes it amply clear when he writes in dasam granth that it is God who is known as kal.

ਕਾਲ ਤੁਹੀ ਕਾਲੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੇਗ ਅਰੁ ਤੀਰ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਨਿਸ਼ਾਨੀ ਜੀਤ ਕੀ ਆਜੁ ਤੁਹੀ ਜਗਬੀਰ ॥੫॥

काल तुही काली तुही तुही तेग अरु तीर ॥ तुही निशानी जीत की आजु तुही जगबीर ॥५॥

Thou art the KAL (death), thou art the goddess Kali, Thou art the saber and arrow, Thou art the sign of victory today and Thou art the Hero of the world.5.

Dasam Granth sahib

Lakhwinder; "Fareeda Je Tun Akal Lateef, Tan Kaley Lekh Na Lekh, Apnarey Girehvaan Mein Sir Nivan Kar Dekh"... But you only remember "ਕੈ ਤੁਹਿ ਕਾਟਿ ਕਰੈ ਸਤ ਖੰਡਾ। ਕੈ ਦੈ ਮੋਰਿ ਭਗ ਬਿਖੈ ਲੰਡਾ। - Either I will cut you into seven pieces or place your penis (lundaa) into my vagina (bhug) - Chariter 312, Dasam Granth)

And this is what your Mahakaal looks like;

ਚਮਕਹਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਣੰ। ਅਭੂਤੰ ਭਯਾਣੰ। ਧੁਣੰ ਨੇਵਰਾਯੰ। ਘੁਰੰ ਘੁੰਘ੍ਰਯਾਣੰ। ੩੧। ਚਤੁਰ ਬਾਹ ਚਾਰੰ। ਨਿਜੂਟੰ ਸੁਧਾਰੰ। ਗਦਾ ਪਾਸ ਸੋਹੰ। ਜਮੰ ਮਾਨ ਮੋਹੰ। ੩੨। ਸੁਭੰ ਜੀਭ ਜੁਆਲੰ। ਸੁ ਦਾੜਾ ਕਰਾਲੰ। ਬਜੀ ਬੰਬ ਸੰਖੰ। ਉਠੇ ਨਾਦੰ ਬੰਖੰ। ੩੩। ਸੁਭੰ ਰੂਪ ਸਿਆਮੰ। ਮਹਾ ਸੋਭ ਧਾਮੰ। ਛਬੇ ਚਾਰੁ ਚਿੰਤ੍ਰੰ। ਪਰੇਅੰ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰੰ। ੩੪।

He has four beautiful arms. The hair is tied in a knot on head. The mace which he has is astonishing. It intrigues the hearts of messengers of death. 32. His tongue is red; resembling fire from a volcano. His grinding teeth are scary. Drums and conches are sounding. They produce a whistling sound similar to the high tide waves in oceans. 33. His dark face looks befitting. It is the house of honorable. His look is beautiful. It is purer than it can be imagined. 34.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Do not tell me to do your home work.

Answer me

Are you aware of the above or not?

I am not aware of it, nor is something written 2 years back more important than things written in 1700s.

Now say; Is Bachittar Natak right or Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Guptsingh1699 wrote

In the above gupt1699 is saying that he does not believe Guru sahib read five banis when he administered amrit in 1699.This shows he is not well read in sikh history.

Gupt1669, have you read bhat vahis and rehatnams. In that it is mentioned very clearly what banis Guru sahib read.

Do you know a sikh periodical " The sikh Review"? In that there was an article two years back by a famous sikh historian saying these five banis are same what was read by guru sahib in 1699.

Are you aware of that?

Well read in Sikh history? You don't know me so don't pass personal comments on me.

Bhatt Vahis, give me exact quotes of them. And name me which Rehatnamas you are talking of.

Get me that article. By whom is it?

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

You have access to many IPs. This is well known.

Let us know what do you understand by naam simran?

Explain first waht is naam?

How do we get naam in sikhism?

Haha... Don't you have acces to a doctor???????

He may have acces to different IP's, but in Canada. I'm right here sitting in Europe.

This topic is about Dasam Granth and not Naam.

So Inder, you choose Guru Granth Sahib on Guru Amar Das being Bhalla or DG saying Guru Amar Das being a Bedi?

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh