fatehsingh

Dear cybersangat, Fateh Bulai Parvaan Karni. Article below is taken from a Namdhari website that sheds light on some questions and misconceptions about the Namdhari Panth. While some questions have already been answered by myself in this thread, others are just as interesting. This shouldn't offend anyone. Or so it's hoped. Fateh Singh Source: http://www31.brinkster.com/namdhari/FACT/factfaq.htm The following are some Frequently Asked Questions, and some misconceptions that require clarification, about the history and beliefs of the Namdhari Sikhs. 1. Who is a Namdhari? 2. Why do Namdhari Sikhs believe in more than 10 Gurus? 3. Are Namdhari Sikhs 'Amritdharis' (Baptised)? 4. How do Namdhari Sikhs treat the Granth Sahibs? 5. Do Namdhari Sikhs eat meat? 6. Why do Namdhari Sikhs shun wearing blue and black attires? 7. Why do Namdhari Sikhs perform Havan? 8. Are Namdharis 'Sikhs'? 9. Why are Namdhari Sikhs also called 'Kukas'? 10. Why do other Sikhs outnumber Namdhari Sikhs? 11. What is the view of the Namdhari Sikhs regarding other sects? 12. Did Guru Ram Singh admit He wasn't a Guru from exile? 13. Did Guru Ram Singh cut His hair/burn Granth Sahib/wear blue clothes, etc.? 14. Did the Namdhari Sikhs tear pages of Granth Sahib to perform 'Patra Path'? 15. What was the role of Namdhari Sikhs after 1872? 16. Are Namdhari Sikhs sponsored/created by the Government of India? 17. Do Namdhari Sikhs follow the Rehat Maryada of SGPC? 18. Did Guru Ram Singh leave His body in 1885? 19. Why did the lineage of Gurus continue when Guru Ram Singh is still alive? 20. Do Namdhari Sikhs give Amrit to women? 21. Why is the Namdhari Anand Karaj different than that of other Sikhs? 22. Why is the Namdhari Ardas different than that of other Sikhs? 23. Were the Namdhari Sikhs tied to cannons at Malerkotla? 1. Who is a Namdhari? A person who has received the Gurmantra from the Satguru or from those authorized by the Satguru, respects and follows the Hukam of the Gurus as written in the Sri Aad and Dasam Granth Sahib and the Hukam of the Hazoor Satguru is a Namdhari. 2. Why do Namdhari Sikhs believe in more than 10 Gurus? Namdhari Sikhs believe that Guru Gobind Singh did not leave His body in 1708 but in fact played the act to escape the direct attention of the Mughal rulers and continued to assist the Sikhs in times of distress. To support this claim there are countless proofs, some of which are displayed on the following links: 'Death' of Guru Gobind Singh - Sikh-Heritage.co.uk How/when did Granth Sahib became 'Guru'? - Namdhari.faithweb.com For beginners who are interested to learn the history of the Namdhari Sikhs and the differences in their beliefs compared to the other Sikhs, the following books are recommended: (a) Purakh Guru - by Giani Mehar Singhji Kanpur ( Kukas, The Freedom Fighters of The Panjab - by M. M. Ahluwalia 3. Are Namdhari Sikhs 'Amritdharis' (Baptised)? The Namdhari Panth was essentially established to revive the old Khalsa Maryada of Guru Gobind Singh that was almost completely lost from the surface of the earth, hence being Amritdhari is an essential part of being a Sant Khalsa and therefore a very large percentage of Namdhari Sikhs is in fact Amritdhari. However there are also many Namdhari Sikhs (mostly from the Hindu and Muslim communities) who, like in the olden days of the 10 Gurus, revere the Satguru as an Incarnation of God and receive the 'Naam', thereby becoming Namdharis, but do not partake Khande Da Pahul and become a Khalsa. Nevertheless, the Sant Khalsa Namdharis do not question their authenticity of being Sikhs and they are given the deserved respect as is everyone else. 4. How do Namdhari Sikhs treat the Granth Sahibs? At the time when the Namdhari Panth was established, Granth Sahibs had lost almost all scriptural/spiritual significance in the eyes of the so called 'Sikhs' and the corrupt Mahants of the time. It is a well known fact that Satguru Ram Singh traveled from Dharamsala to Dharamsala, opened up the abandoned houses of worship, cleaned the volumes of Granth Sahib that were forgotten and chewed off by rats with His Dastaar (Turban), and taught the people the proper respect that the Granth Sahibs deserved. The Namdhari Sikhs therefore dearly respect both Sri Aad and Dasam Guru Granth Sahibs equally as Gurbani and treat them with no less, if not more, respect than the other Sikhs who claim to worship the Sri Aad Granth Sahib as Guru. In fact the Namdhari Sikhs believe that since the Gurus themselves bowed down before the Granth Sahib it therefore does not make sense that Guru Gobind Singh would have allegedly lowered the status of Granth Sahib and gave It His Gurgaddi instead as is claimed by the other Sikhs. For more information on this subject please visit THIS LINK. 5. Do Namdhari Sikhs eat meat? No. Along with alcohol, tea, coffee and other harmful diet, meat is not allowed to be consumed by a Namdhari. For more information on the issue of vegetarianism, please visit THIS LINK. 6. Why do Namdhari Sikhs shun wearing blue and black attires? Blue and black clothes were the attires of Muslims, who were the arch enemies of the Sikhs. For more information regarding this subject please visit THIS LINK. 7. Why do Namdhari Sikhs perform Havan? Satjug Sat, Treta Jaggi, Dvapar Pooja Chaar | Teeno Jug, Teeno Dhrirhay, Kal Kaywal Naam Adhaar | From the above Verse, it is clear that Havan or Jagg is the main practice of Treta Yuga (Although Raja Bali of Satjug is also known to have performed a 'Mahan Jagg'). While there is no doubt that 'Naam' is the main practice of Kali Yuga, one also cannot deny that a Sikh does not only Jap Naam but also adheres to the values of 'Satt' (Truth) from Sat Yuga, Pooja (worship of Satguru) from Dvapar Yuga and also Jagg (Havan) from Treta Yuga. These are the ancient practices that the Sikhs, and the Gurus, practised. 8. Are Namdharis 'Sikhs'? The word Sikh is derived from the Sanskrit 'Shishya' which means student. To be a student there needs to be a teacher or Guru. Since Namdharis do have a teacher, they are hence students and no doubt Sikhs. 9. Why are Namdhari Sikhs also called 'Kukas'? The Namdhari Sikhs, while listening to the Gurbani or upon the Darshan (Glimpse) of the Satguru would sometimes become ecstatic and let out a loud shout (Kook). Hence the name Kuka. 10. Why do other Sikhs outnumber Namdhari Sikhs? Firstly, after Satguru Ram Singh Ji went into exile the Namdhari Sikhs were harassed and oppressed in every possible way. No five Namdhari Sikhs were allowed to get together anywhere. The Namdhari Sikhs were thrown into jails for doing Path and performing Diwan for five to seven years. Some got worse punishments being drowned in the Andaman sea and tortured in many ways. The Namdhari Sikhs were not even allowed to enter into the Gurdwaras controlled by the other Sikhs who were Pro-British. They were driven away just as their Straight Turban was seen in the distance. The Namdhari Sikhs were "outlawed" and called all sorts of names by the Sikh Mahants. This may partially be due to the incident in 1863 when Satguru Ram Singh Ji had declared the Nihangi Sikh Mahants of Anandpur as "non-Sikhs" right in their faces. Hence after Satguruji went into exile the Mahants saw it to be their chance to get even and started to label the Namdhari Sikhs as non-Sikhs. This sadly goes on till today due to the illiteracy of the majority of Punjabis. Secondly, The Gurdwara Sri Bhaini Sahib itself was under heavy surveillance and was searched every few hours. For fifty long agonizing years the heavy surveillance went on and the Namdhari Sikhs in every part of India, and abroad, that the British and its loyalists had their eyes on were oppressed. At such a time, to become a Namdhari was no different than becoming a 'criminal' or being imprisoned for life. Thirdly, a large number of Namdhari Sikhs were also later forced to be converted by the Singh Sabha movement of Lahore that had complete support from the British Government and whose many members were in fact Government officials. Hence with the financial and political support of the then British Government of India and with the aides they received from the majority of Gurdwaras that were readily used as preaching centers, the Singh Sabha Sikhs were able to do a 'Parchar' (Propaganda) with much ease and success contrary to the Namdhari Sikhs whose very existence itself was a displeasure for the Government. 11. What is the view of Namdhari Sikhs regarding other sects? Namdhari Sikhs do not criticize or disrespect any other religion. God has created this world with different kinds of flowers and animals and all living and non-living entities. We are all His creation and abide by His rules, hence nobody should be disrespected or molested. In fact the belief of the Namdhari Sikhs is that it is respectable for every religion to hold on to their beliefs and praise their founder/Guru in every and any way they wish as long as they do not insult others' beliefs in the process of doing so. In the past Sri Satguru Partap Singh Ji Maharaj had organized several conferences to unite all Sikh factions and also to unite the major religions of India (Hindu,Muslim,Sikh), information about which may be FOUND HERE. 12. Did Guru Ram Singh admit He wasn't a Guru from exile? This is one of the biggest, and most ridiculous, propagandas used by those who are agitated by the presence of the Namdhari Sikhs. One of them was Dr. Ganda Singh, a well revered historian in the Singh Sabha Sikh community, who decided to challenge the authenticity of the Namdhari Sikhs and perhaps to try and convince the Namdhari Sikhs themselves that they were not the Sikhs of the Satguru. However, Dr. Ganda Singh failed to do what he wanted in the worst possible way. Each of his books, namely 'Kukia Dia Vithia' and 'The Sikh Review - The succession theories', were thoroughly and completely answered back by Giani Mehar Singh Kanpur in his two books, namely 'Koorhr Na Puchay Sach Nu Saw Gharhrat Gharhriay' and 'Purakh Guru', in such a way that no word was heard from Dr. Ganda Singh ever since. Nevertheless, due to the fact that the Namdhari Sikhs are cultured to be peace loving, they do not brag about such victories or promote such kinds of argumentum or debating books to entertain the crowd or hurt anyone's feelings. Hence this entire myth of Guru Ram Singh realizing He wasn't a Guru upon reaching Rangoon is still sadly afloat and the ignorant and innocent Singh Sabha preachers who have no clue what so ever that such a propaganda was a complete hoax still continue to unknowingly fool the public. Moreover, this clearly shows the level of desperation Dr. Ganda Singh was in for trying to use the Word of the Satguru against Himself. Therefore it must be clarified once and for all that the Satguru never 'admitted' to not being the real Guru or 'confessed' that the true Guru was the Granth Sahib or any such thing as is falsely claimed by Dr. Ganda Singh and other Singh Sabha propagators. It is in fact true that the Guru did, in many a Hukamnamas, praise His Sikhs for their bravery and modestly call Himself as not being worthy as a Guru, but Dr. Ganda Singh has used the cheapest trick in the book of telling 'half truth' and only published the portions of the Hukamnamas where the Guru wrote He's not a Guru to fool the readers. Worse yet, Dr. Ganda Singh even fabricated many other portions of Hukamnamas that no Namdhari Sikh has ever seen in order to portray his false propaganda. Another important point is that if in fact the Satguru admitted to the Sikhs via a Hukamnama that He was not the real Guru, then what could be the reason for the Namdhari Sikhs to not believe Him and go to the real Guru instead? Why would they remain His Sikhs and face unspeakable harassment, humiliation, poverty and torture? Hence it is clear that none of these propagandas is true. 13. Did Guru Ram Singh cut His hair/burn Granth Sahib/wear blue clothes, etc.? No. The false propaganda that the Guru cut His hair and burnt a Granth Sahib was started by Jathedar Giani Partap Singh who was another revered so called 'scholar' in the Singh Sabha Sikh community. In his book called 'Kuka Gurudom', he claims that Sant Inder Singh Chakkerwarti, an esteemed Namdhari scholar, wrote that the Guru cut his hair and burnt a volume of Granth Sahib. By reading the answers to the several questions presented above, the reader should not at all hesitate to label such tales as mere hoaxes. For we are not talking about any other Bhagat or Sant, but the Satguru who had literally 'resurrected' the Khalsa and the status of the Granth Sahibs. Nevertheless, to be completely just, the book in which 'Giani' Partap Singh claimed the 'fact' to be written was thoroughly scanned. The result was unbelievable. Not because 'Giani' Partap Singh was right, but because it is unimaginable that someone could so wrongly interpret plain simple Punjabi. It is written in the book called 'Malvendra' by Sant Inder Singhji that once during His military years (prior to retrieving Gurgaddi from Guru Balak Singh Ji), Guru Ram Singh once worked Himself up to a state of spiritual bliss and ecstasy that He ordered His younger brother to burn His body to get rid of the 'Malesh Sikhi' (Pro-British/Corrupt Sikhism). After all the commotion the result was that the Guru ended up having some part of His hair burnt. No where is anything about cutting hair ever mentioned. As it can be clearly seen, 'Giani' Partap Singh has gone even lower than Dr. Ganda Singh in trying to achieve his pointless goals. As for the burning of the Granth Sahib, 'Giani' Partap Singh again tries to use the work of Sant Inder Singhji against himself, which is a sure sign of desperation, and after going through the page on which 'Giani' Partap Singh claims the 'fact' to be written, it causes even more amazement for the reader. It is written in the mentioned book by Sant Inder Singhji that when the Guru was once requested to compose Gurbani by the Sikhs, He in turn wrapped a Granth Sahib in a blanket and set it to fire. The blanket was burnt to ashes but the Granth Sahib was protected by the Grace of the Guru. No where is it written that the Granth Sahib was burnt. Again, 'Giani' Partap Singh has used his fuzzy logic to fool people. But these are nothing compared to our main star Dr. Ganda Singh who by mere observation of the picture of Guru Ram Singh was able to draw the conclusion that the Satguru, despite being dressed in white attires in every painting, was a Nihang Singh who wore blue clothes! He gives his reason in his book 'Kukia Dia Vithia' saying that since there was a symbolic Khanda (double edge sword) on Guru Ram Singh's Dastaar, the Guru must have therefore been a Nihang and wore blue clothing. The only response that can be given to such a claim is that if we had more people like Dr. Ganda Singh in the scientific community there would be no longer any necessity for paleontologists! 14. Did the Namdhari Sikhs tear pages of Granth Sahib to perform 'Patra Path'? No. The Granth Sahib was respectfully and properly 'disassembled' and was to be 'assembled' back again after the prayer was concluded. However the Singh Sabha folks were rather more excited in causing strife in the Sikh community than peace and falsely wrote in their papers that the Namdhari Sikhs were tearing their Guru apart. This is plain falsehood that some shameless journalists use to sell their papers and some principle-less Singh Sabha propagators put forth to the public's eyes to cause anger, resentment, misunderstandings and wrong impressions. 15. What was the role of Namdhari Sikhs after 1872? While some Sikh groups try to portray the Namdhari or Kuka Movement as a thing in the past that was somehow, according to them, 'succeeded' by the Singh Sabha Movement, this claim is far from truth. As mentioned above, after Guru Ram Singh's exile in 1872, the Namdhari Sikhs throughout the land suddenly became hunted men. Their congregation and very existence itself was outlawed by the British. Yet the Sikhs never stopped fighting for their cause. The Namdhari Sikhs participated in almost every campaign organized in protest of the British one can think of, including the massacre of Jallian Wala Bagh in which hundreds of Namdhari Sikhs and prominent leaders were present despite of the eminent danger. For more information regarding this subject, visit the following links: The Namdhari Movement - Sikh-Heritage Namdhari Singhs & Dharma - SantKhalsa Dharma 16. Are Namdhari Sikhs sponsored/created by the Government of India? No. The Namdhari (Sant Khalsa) Panth was established on Baisakhi day in 1857 A.D. by Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji. 17. Do Namdhari Sikhs follow the Rehat Maryada of SGPC? No. While some of the SGPC's Maryada maybe similar to that of the Namdhari Sikhs, the Namdhari Sikhs essentially trace their Maryada back to the original Maryada of Sri Satguru Gobind Singh Ji. The British had influenced every major Gurdwara in Panjab, bribed the Mahants and used them to control the public. However, the Gurdwara attributed to Guru Gobind Singh at Sri Abchalnagar (Hazoor Sahib, Nander), was the only Gurdwara which, due to its remoteness, had the original Maryada of Guru Gobind Singh well preserved. It was that very Maryada of the Tenth Guru that Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji sent His trusted Sikh, Bhai Rai Singhji, to retrieve and spread throughout Panjab in the form of the Namdhari Panth. 18. Did Guru Ram Singh leave His body in 1885? No. There has never been any genuine proof, physical or documental, produced by the British Government regarding this issue. For more information regarding this subject, CLICK HERE. 19. Why did the lineage of the Gurus continue when Guru Ram Singh is still alive? To give His Sikhs the moral support and much needed guidance during the distressful times when the Namdhari Sikhs had sadly become hunted men, Satguru Ram Singh Ji sent a Hukamnama from Burma through which He appointed His younger brother, Baba Budh Singh Ji - Whose Name was changed to Guru Hari Singh Ji, to guide the Sikhs until His much expected return as ordained by Guru Gobind Singh Himself. The duty of looking after the Sikhs was then passed on to Satguru Partap Singh Ji and then to the present Satguru Jagjit Singh Ji. 20. Do Namdhari Sikhs give Amrit to women? Yes. While it is true that the original Maryada of Sri Satguru Gobind Singh Ji did not allow women to receive Khande Da Pahul and become Amritdharis, the benevolent Satguru, in His 12th Incarnation, had for the first time blessed women with Amrit from the Khanda (Double-Edge-Sword) on the Pooranmashi day in June 1858 A.D. at a village called 'Siarhr'. Only after that historical event were women officially initiated into the Khalsa Panth as Amritdharis. For more information on this subject, CLICK HERE 21. Why is the Namdhari Anand Karaj different than that of other Sikhs? As with the initiation of women into the Khalsa Panth, the Khalsa Anand Maryada, or Anand Karaj, was created by the order of Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji on June 3rd, 1863 A.D. at the village called 'Khote'. While today some Sikh groups claim that it was invented by some other sect, the prominent respected Sikh historian of the late 1800's, Giani Gian Singhji, author of the epic 'Panth Parkash' who spent an entire life time probing into the history of the Sikh Panth, had in fact very clearly written in one of his work, namely the 'Bhupindranand', that the Anand Karaj was pioneered by no one else but Satguru Ram Singh Ji. In Giani Gian Singh's own words, the other Sikhs have merely copied the Maryada from the Kukas, hence they should be thankful to Satguru Ram Singh for inventing the system. While the reading of Gurbani (Four Lawans) during Anand Karaj was copied from the Maryada of Namdhari Sikhs, to give it a different look, the Agni (Fire) was replaced with the Sri Aad Granth Sahib by the other Sikhs and so is the addition of several marital functions & celebrations prior to and after the marriage. Hence the difference. For more information on this subject, CLICK HERE 22. Why is the Namdhari Ardas different than that of other Sikhs? It has come to notice that sometimes the other Sikhs, unable to find any other flaw, try to use the Ardas as a tool to dismiss Namdhari Sikhs from their ideology of Sikhism. It is wrongly claimed by the them that the Namdhari Sikhs recite 'Vaar Sri Bhagautiji Ki Patshahi Barvi', which gives the reader the idea that Namdhari Sikhs do not have any respect for Gurbani and change it according to their will. This baseless claim is again far from truth. The Namdhari Sikhs' first sentences of the Ardas are as follow: 'Ek Ongkar. Sri Vaihguru Ji Ki Fateh. Sri Bhagauti Ji Sahai. Patshahi Barvi.' Hence the false claim can be easily dismissed. It would also not be out of place to remind the other Sikhs to look at their own Ardas before making comments about others since the Gurbani of Chandi Di Vaar, from which the Namdhari Sikhs and the other Sikhs both employ the format, has no mention what so ever about the Name of Guru Gobind Singh and in fact the Granth Sahib Itself was added to the Ardas of the other Sikhs only after the creation of the Singh Sabha Movement. To support this claim, the reader may take a look at a picture of an old Gutka's Ardas section published in 1897 by visiting these links: Pic1, Pic2, Pic3. 23. Were the Namdhari Sikhs tied to cannons at Malerkotla? No. This false claim has been spread around by the many Singh Sabha Sikhs in order to discredit the Namdhari Sikhs of their courage and bravery of being the only Sikh Movement that was ready to take the law in its own hands in order to restore the purity of the sanctity of one of Sikh Faith's most important shrine, the Sri Harimandir Sahib and several other Gurdwaras. From the works of Giani Gian Singh (Respected historian and eyewitness to the massacre of Namdhari Sikhs at Malerkotla) and the reports of Bibi Khem Kaur and Bibi Ind Kaur (Members of the Namdhari Soldiers who attacked Malerkotla but were released because of their gender) the correct conclusion can be made that the Namdhari Sikhs stood with their chests facing the cannon and in fact fought with one another to be the first to be blown by cannons. Apart from it being impossible for a person to be tied to the mouth of a cannon, it is also worth noting that the Namdhari Sikhs, who followed the strict Rahet Maryada of Guru Gobind Singh and were pure Khalsas, did not allow the Englishmen or their stooges to touch them, and didn't even use their leather ropes, when the four Namdhari Sikhs became Shaheeds at Amritsar, hence how would it be possible that the Namdhari Sikhs would have allowed the Englishmen or their stooges to tie them to their cannons at Malerkotla? For more information regarding this subject CLICK HERE. Got a question that should be added to the list? CLICK HERE.

There's no doubt about it. From MK Gandhi to Indra Gandhi they all outwardly sang the praises of the Guru but only the Guru knows what kind of people they really were. Politicians are never trustworthy but for some reason even Guru Gobind Singh gave assistance to Bahadur Shah, knowing full well of his true intentions. We can only try to learn what the Guru is trying to teach us. Fateh Singh

Fateh Singh di Fateh Bulai Parvan Karni I just wanted to point out that Namdhari Singhs did not use 'non-violence' but rather 'boycott' is the correct word. Force was used whenever it was needed. This was started BY Satguru Ram Singh Ji HIMSELF (and not started later as it seems that's what Mr. Lalleshvari is thinking). Many false propaganda has been sadly put forth to the public's eyes that the Namdhari Panth started by Guru Ram Singh was somehow 'different' or 'changed' by politics etc. This is plain BASELESS FALSEHOOD. Fateh Singh

I REALLY DO NOT want to touch this topic AT ALL. Why? Because I am happy as long as you do respect the Sri Granth Sahibs and try to live your lives according to the Hukams of my Satgurus that are recorded within them. And the Sri Granth Sahibs definitely DO NOT advocate name callings, finger pointings and disrespect towards any other religion. Even towards people such as Dheermal the Gurus NEVER advocated or arranged any kind of propaganda against him. Namdhari Singhs believe that Guru Gobind Singh did not give Gurgaddi to any of the Sri Granth Sahibs or the Panj Pyare or the Panth Khalsa as is believed by the mainstream Sikhs. And that's our belief. This is what we believe in regarding the 'death' of Guru Gobind Singh: http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/research/Gu...%20of%20GGS.htm Again, as the very first line of the page says 'The Namdhari Sikhs believe...' so this is what we believe in 'sincerely' and not because we get 'paid' or 'promotions' or anything as such. In fact we have been oppressed and harrassed for believing in what we did by the British and its supporters. The website supports our view with several evidents. It is up to the reader to believe it or not. We do not and CANNOT force anyone to believe in the same. The ONLY SOLE PURPOSE of the various Namdhari websites has been NOTHING ELSE other than to ELIMINATE BASELESS PROPAGANDA against the Namdhari Panth that some websites, such as the one you also mentioned, have created out of simple insecurities. Fateh Singh

ms514, what is all this 'petty talks' and little naggings? Here's my final answer about my view regarding Bhindrawale so please try to UNDERSTAND without having me going through an interrogation session: The fact that he did nindya was 'significant'. Because if you go around doing nindya of others you cannot expect them to support you. Hence his 'actions' were significant. But the 'nindya' itself is 'insignificant' because who can remember how many nindyas are being done or have been done in the past about all the great figures and even the oridinary people? This is a common sense question. I also want to make it VERY CLEAR that I am aware of the fact that Bhindrawale DID do a lot of GOOD by putting people on the right track and giving them Amrit and stopped them from doing drugs etc. Hence from the spiritual point of view he was respectable and admirable person up to certain circumstances. But he was not born to be a politician and I personally did not like his political strategies. If you are 'in love' with his political strategies then that is your wish and I respect that. Have a nice day. THANKS FOR UNDERSTANDING. Fateh Singh

jtsingh Fateh Bulai Parvaan Karni As for the Sodh Maryada, the name 'Sodh' was given by Sri Satguru Partap Singh Ji. It is basically the maryada of the Granthis and those who looked after Maharaj's Beeds (Both Sri Aad and Dasam, as is still the maryada today) and the Shastars of the Guru. 'Sodh' is a short form of 'Such Sodh' (ie. Complete Cleanliness/Purity). Back at the time of Satguru Ram Singh Ji, 'Sodh' was the 'Normal' Maryada of a Sant Khalsa and had no special name. But after the oppression that took place after Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji went to exile, and because many Namdhari Singhs went to other countries and some of them were not able to follow the Maryada in its ENTIRETY, the name 'Sodhi' was used for those who followed the complete Sant Khalsa Maryada. In other words, 'Sodhi' is a title of encouragement. A reward given to those who are willing to leave behind the modern day 'junk' and live according to the Khalsa Rahet in its purest form. Sodh is a 'Piri' (Spritual) concept. Nevertheless it does no doubt affect a person's political actions so you are also correct with your theory. Fateh Singh

>>Fateh Singh - just one small point! You said that Namdhari Singh's do not translate Gurbani into other languages, but this is plainly not true, as I have a great english translation of Oogardanthi, Chandi Di Var, Shaster Naam Mala, etc produced by a Namdhari. I thought I wrote very clearly that: Namdhari Singhs DO NOT translate the Sri Granth Sahibs into any other language and twist their meanings in the process of doing so Kindly read that carefully. Also the fact that the writer has translated only parts (mostly the 'difficult to understand' Banis) shows his real intention of getting the youth to first 'get interested' in Gurbani which many younger Sikhs today find to be extremely difficult to understand. Once you get their attention, they will make an effort themselves to read the Banis and try to explore its meanings. But in no way does any Namdhari Singh claims his translation to be an absolute gospel or be truer than others etc., this much you can be a hundred percent sure. >>Also, I was quite amazed that you state that Namdharis essentialy want a united panth without different 'churches' or jathas, and no difference between Nihangs and Nirmalae. Yet you have repeatedly referred to 'mainstream' Sikhs and 'Namdharis'. Would you want every Sikh to ideally believe in Namdhari maryada, or 'mainstream' maryada? First of all, if I did not use the word 'mainstream Sikhs' etc, how will you know what and who I am talking about? Wouldn't that be even more confusing? Anyway, this is our belief: We believe that our Maryada is the original Maryada of Guru Gobind Singh that was lost from Punjab when the English invaded. I do not want to spend too much time writing about the entire Sakhi but please kindly refer to http://namdhari.faithweb.com/raisingh.htm which describes the situation of 'Sikhs' at the time and how Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji had to send a trusted Sikh, Bhai Rai Singh ji, to Hazoor Sahib - Sri Abchal Nagar - in order to retrieve Guru Gobind Singh Ji's maryada that was no where else to be found in the entire Punjab. Although the Maryadas of giving Amrit to women, the Anand Karaj, and Akhand Path etc. were pioneered (or made popular, in the case of Akhand path - that is if it was infact performed by the Buddha Dal first as some claim) by Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji, the rest of the maryada that Namdhari Sikhs today follow is what the Maryada of Sri Hazoor Sahib was BACK THEN. Kindly read the page I mentioned and there should be no more doubts left. Hence idealy ofcourse we HOPE our Maryada, which we sincerely believe to be the original one of Guru Gobind Singh, would be followed, but then again that's in God's hands and we do not force anyone to believe the same. But atleast we should reach to the point where there's no 'hate', 'insults' or 'baseless/demeaning propaganda' against other religions. >>When you state there should be no difference between Nihangs and Nirmalae, as far as the sampraday are concerned, they were instituted (tupee of) by Guru Gobind Singh ji himself. I personally feel there is unity in diversity, not unity in orthodoxy vs. heterodoxy. What I meant was, and I apologize if I didn't make it clear enough, that there should be no 'discrimination' between the many sects or religions. There should not be finger pointings and name callings and all other low-class propagandas. As you may have read from the Namdhari Websites, the Namdhari Darbar had made several attempts to unite all sects and the major religions of India and in all of them, the message of the Namdhari Darbar was very straight forward. The following may be quoted from the Namdhari Websites: the conference implored all the leaders, saints, lecturers, journalists, minstrels, and all other responsible persons to sermonize the essence of their belief without violating and defaming the principles of any other sect. And that is what we HOPE to achieve. Praise YOUR Guru with all means possible as long as it does not mean insulting others' Gurus. Fateh Singh

Sorry but I don't make a list of insignificant things. People know what nindya is when they hear one. I do not think we need your help to know what he said was nindya or not. You are entitled to believe in what you do and revere any man as Sant or Sadh as you may wish. I only expressed my views about him that are shaped because of an explained sensible reason. As you have been so kind as to advise others in another post of yours that getting into a discussion with a Namdhari is pointless, it is hoped that you'd remain true to your kind words. Fateh Singh

That's one MAJOR reason. Also we did not appreciate his political strategies, which in the end brought nothing but destruction. We do not have time or reason to conspire against such persons. We believe Sikhism to be a spiritual religion. Politics - bad politics, to be politically correct - have ruined the image of Sikhs. Again this is our belief. Not that we force anyone to believe the same. This is a 20 pages long question. But first also kindly see a bit of what we did BEFORE the years you requested to know about: ( From a Namdhari Website: http://namdhariveg.sytes.net ) When Sri Satguru Partap Singh Ji ascended the Gurgaddi (Throne of the Guru), the English were still in control of the Land of Bharat (India). In the mean time, Indian National Congress had been organized and the Namdhari Sikhs, under the divine guidance of the Great Satguru Partap Singh, joined hands with the Congress. They organized numerous conferences at various places in Punjab to arouse the people's interest against the British tyranny. In 1925, the congress started a special campaign from Bradella Hall in Lahore. The Namdhari Sikhs participated in that movement whole-heartedly as well. They stood at the forefront and bravely faced arrests. In Dec.1929 the Annual Session of congress was organized in Lahore. Namdhari Sikhs had not only taken part in that session but also provided free food to every participant. The Daily Tribune of Lahore published an article on 27th December,1929: "Pundit Jawahar Lal Nehru was riding a horse. It was a beautiful white charger. Behind him were the G.O.C and other officers of the volunteers corps. The most striking feature was the Sikh cavalry dressed in white spotless khaddar and wearing stylish turbans. The Namdharis with their flowing beards presenting a thrilling sight." When Netaji, Subash Chandra Bose, organized the AZAD HIND FAUJ with its centre in Bangkok (Thailand), Namdhari Sikhs of Thailand helped him in each and every way possible. Subash Chandra Bose had rightly said that; "The banner for freedom given to Indians by Satguru Ram Singh and the sacrifices done by Namdhari Sikhs will be a matter of great pride for the Indians. The Namdhari Sikhs, experienced for three quarters of century for their peaceful non-co-operation movement, are expected to carry forward the banner of freedom in the forefront and will encourage sacrifices. Guru Ram Singh is the first leader of the peaceful non-co-operation movement in India." In 1945, the Vavel Conference was held in Shimla. All the patriots and political parties participated in the conference. Sri Satguru Partap Singh Ji also reached Shimla with the Namdhari Sikhs. At that time, Pt. Nehru asked Sri Satguruji, "What do you want? What are your dreams?" Satguru Partap Singh Ji, while expressing the patriotic view of the Namdhari Dharma, replied, "My want, wish and demand is only India's freedom". On account of these pioneering efforts & sacrifices of Namdhari Sikhs and all other patriotic forces, India attained independence on 15th August,1947. Pt. Nehru had later written in the 'Satjug' (A Namdhari Newspaper): "No Indian can deny the importance of efforts put in by Satguru Ram Singh and His followers Namdhari Sikhs, seventy five years ago in achieving freedom of the country. Congress merely followed the path shown by them and attained Independence." Reading this many would ask if we were so politically friendly with the Congress, did we suport the massacre of 1984? The answer to this is: NO WAY. The only reason why we were even friendly with the Congress in the first place was becasue their non-violence strategy was copied from that started by Namdhari Sikhs, so it made simple logical sense for us to support them. Other than the 'political freedom' of India, the Namdhari Panth never gained anything else out of the relationship with Congress. This must be once and for all understood as there are also unfortunately those who try to use our good relationship with the Congress party to defame our contributions and sacrifices. Many will also ask 'What were the Namdhari Sikhs doing in 1984?' The answer to this question is that there was nothing that could be done that would reflect our true mission and beliefs. 1984 was a HUGE political strategic failure. It could have been easily prevented yet no attention was given to what should have been done in the right time. We supported neither the organization of the SGPC/Bhindrawale that never cared about our feelings and did all sorts of cheap propaganda against our religion and are considered 'fundamentalists' by any civilized standards. We also did not support the blind and foolish Hindu terrorists who were brain-washed by the British, that successfully divided and ruled them, and viewed Sikhs, who were their saviours, as enemies!! Sadly enough many Namdhari Singhs were also put to sword by the fanatic Hindus. So we were definitely not enjoying the show as some would wrongly fantasize. Hence there was NOTHING RELIGIOUSLY AND POLITICALLY CORRECT that could be done in 1984. Nevertheless we undoubtedly supported those whose family or friends were lost and provided them with shelter and food, but as for picking up arms to fight against either of the 'fundamentalists', there really was no easy decision to be made. We were between a rock and a hard place. The one major reason why India is politically free today is because the path to freedom through non-violence pioneered by Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji was followed. Yet today the 'father of India' is Mahatma Gandhi and the majority of Indians and even Sikhs do not even have a correct idea of what Namdhari Panth is and who the namdhari Sikhs are. Need I say more?? There was a very good book called 'Namdhari Atay Congress' written by Maharaj Bir Singhji that explains about all the sacrifices we did for the cause of freedom of India by supporting the congress and what they have given us back in return. Miri and Piri were always there since the time of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. He traveled to all corners with not only spiritual but also political messages. He did not only uplift people's spiritual life but also their political actions which is directly a result of good Moral. So according to our beliefs we strongly believe in the tradition of Miri and Piri. But just like how in different ages there are different rules. For example it was Guru Hargobind Sahib who started the Miri Piri officially by putting the evil muslims to sword but when Guruship was passed on to Guru Harrai Sahib the Guru did not go to any war and paid more attention to meditation and Gurbani etc. instead which ultimately went on until Sri Satguru Gobind Singh Ji's time came. Similarly Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji, who every Namdhari Singh reveres as the incarnation of Guru Gobind Singh, at the time when the Khalsa's Miri was corrupted because of corrupt Piri, decided that more attention should be given to Piri which would ultimately bring out a better Miri in the Khalsas. Hence the Namdhari Panth was founded. To learn more about the Namdhari Singh's Dharma, the following website is strongly recommended: http://namdhariveg.sytes.net The site also highlights the effort put forth by the Namdhari Darbar in trying to reunite all the major and minor sects within the Sikh World. Fateh Singh

N30 Singh For me, and most likely also for the majority of the Namdhari Singhs, 'Sant' Bhindrawale was far away from what a Namdhari Singh would consider to be a religious Sikh, let alone Sant. I do not want to say anything much because I know the majority of the members on this board - especially the children, unfortunately - are difinitely big fans of his, but just let me tell you a little story. Back at the time when the militancy of Bhindrawale was in 'power', he once entered into the area of Sri Jiwan Nagar, a peaceful town mostly occupied by the Namdhari Singhs and other Sikhs who were rescued by Sri Satguru Partap Singh Ji after the partition of India. There Bhindrawale made his entrance known by traveling in a large white van and with him were his 'gunmen', that some mainstream Sikhs call 'Gursikhs', who came out with their guns fully loaded and stood by the side of Bhindrawale while he did 'NINDYA' of our Satgurus. What would YOUR idea of such a person be? A Sant? I'm really not sure but according to the doctrines of our Satgurus and from what you will find again and again written in the Sri Granth Sahibs; a person who is a 'Sant' or a 'Religious Person', no matter to which religion he may belong to, will NEVER do NINDYA of any other person belonging to any other religion, let alone that of the Satgurus or Sants. It is funny to think that many mainstream Sikh writers write Baba Banda Bahadur to be a 'manmukh' when other people who caused so much death and destruction to be Saints. Fateh Singh

Fateh Bulai Parvaan Karni Before answering to GKD's (Gabroo Khalistan Da) question about Khalistan, Mr. N30 Singh has brought to light yet another product of the insecurities among some mainstream Sikhs who view every other religion to be their enemy of some kind. I have nothing to say about their foolish claim of Namdhari Panth being 'created' by Government of India or whatever other political institution. This is just too 'low-class' that I won't even dignify it. Those people who do such lousy and cheap propagandas should be ashamed of themselves. Now back to the topic of Khalistan. Here's one memorable Kabit written by one great Namdhari Sant, Sant Dhian Singh ji in his book called 'Satguru Bilas Patshahi Baarvi' that always comes to mind when someone talks about their vision of Khalistan: Vidvaan Ko Desh Bidesh. Moorakhman Ko Desh Kalesh. : For a learnt person, there is no difference as to who the land he lives on belongs to. For a fool, even his own country is no different than hell. While the above mentioned Kabit was written almost a hundred years ago, it definitely was as true then as it is now. The Namdhari Singhs have been FOR Khalistan since the initiation of the Namdhari Panth in 1857. However our view of Khalistan is TOTALLY DIFFERENT from what is envisioned by the mainstream Sikhs. We want a Khalistan that is FULL OF KHALSAS. Hence to fill Khalistan, we first need to have MORE Khalsas. We DO NOT want a Khalistan that will be governed by some corrupt institution that pays no attention to its people or their spirituality. We DO NOT want a Khalistan that will always be in fear of being attacked by its neighbors. We DO NOT want a Khalistan that will last only as long as we keep the guns firing and swords shining. We DO NOT want a Khalistan that is only limited to the size of the present Punjab. Violence and Militancy has NEVER seen and will NEVER see an everlasting reign. We WANT a Khalistan in which there is no distinction between Nirmalas and Nihangs. Where there is no distinction between Namdhari or Singh Sabhia. Where there is no distinction between Hindu or Muslim. A Khalistan that is Khalis and has no geographical boundaries. A Khalistan that is UNITED and not divided into Takhats or Jathas or churches. A Khalistan that will by itself define the highest standard of human civilization that ever existed on this planet. But the funny part is that when such a Khalistan will be achieved, no one will call it Khalistan. They will all call it 'Sach Khand'. Fateh Singh

Gabroo Khalistan Da, I knew you'd ask about Khalistan! Anyway, as for 'respect for Guru Granth Sahibs' (Both Sri Aad and Sri Dasam), let me also shed some light on one of the BIGGEST misconceptions. That is the claim made by many ILLITERATE mainstraem Sikhs who think they know so much about every religion in the world, that Namdhari Singhs don't pay any special attention to them!! This is TOTAL BIAS NONSENSE AND THE MOST RIDICULOUS IDEA someone would ever try to lie. According to our belief, the Granth Sahibs were bowed to by every Satguru including our present Satguru. They RESPECT it and give it a place HIGHER than themselves and this is also one of the reasons why we do not believe that Sri Satguru Gobind Singh ji would have 'lowered' the already HIGH position of the Sri Aad Granth Sahib and given it his Gurgaddi instead when he already bowed down to it. Again this is our belief, I do not wish to go this way much but since Drawrof also said he wanted to learn more about the Namdhari history so this is what we believe in. Also let me assure those who may get paranoid of not knowing what happens to the Beeds of Sri Granth Sahibs in the Namdhari Diwan. Let me say simply that we give them MORE respect than the mainstream Sikhs. YES I MEAN IT. The following are a few aspects of it (Applied to both Sri Granth Sahibs): Namdhari Singhs DO NOT do parkash of any Sri Granth Sahibs and LEAVE THEM OPEN without the intention of reading or taking any care whether an insect or dirt will land on them or not like how many mainstream Sikhs do the parkash and leave for their jobs!!! This is viewed as disrespect towards the Sri Granth Sahibs according to the Namdhari Maryada. Namdhari Singhs DO NOT touch the Sri Granth Sahibs without taking bath from head to toe. We consider our Satguru's Banis to be 'Pavittar'. Namdhari Singhs DO NOT translate the Sri Granth Sahibs into any other language and twist their meanings in the process of doing so like how many mainstream Sikhs have done. A human being cannot translate Guru's Bani. Only the Guru knows the meaning of every word written in the Granth Sahibs is what Namdhari Singhs believe. Namdhari Singhs DO NOT do 'Arth' of the Sri Granth Sahibs and twist it into all 500 different meanings to satisfy some nonsense cause such as for the promotion of meat-eating etc. like how many mainstream Sikhs have done and are doing. Namdhari Singhs DO NOT reject parts of the Sri Granth Sahibs such as the Bhagta Di Banis, Raagmala, or parts of the Dasam Granth Sahib like how many mainstream Sikhs who claim to worship the Sri Granth Sahibs as 'Guru' do. These are only a few points I could think from the top of my head. If you need more information you may find it from the Namdhari websites I posted in my previous message. As for the topic of Khalistan, I will post our position on the matter tomorrow as I am out of time today just after discussing the role of Sri Granth Sahibs. Kindly wait. Fateh Singh

Gabroo Khalistan Da, We call EVERY Guru, Satguru, Sachay Patshah, Guruji, etc. out of love. There is no TITLE spoken by a human fitting or worthy of the position of the Satguru. Sri Satguru Gobind Singh Sahib wrote in Dasam Granth Sahib: Shesh Naag Sir Sahes Suhai | Dwa Sahes Rasna Suhai | Lagay Japat Ab Naam Apara | Tumro Tao Na Pavat Para | It is NOT that we believe one Guru to be higher than the others. Please kindly understand this. A lot of people get the wrong idea and think that we worship one specific Guru over the other. This is also utter NONSENSE and just their way of expressing 'sour grapes', hope you've understood. Fateh Singh

Khalsa Soulja, PLEASE STOP LYING!!!! I don't know from where you have heard about this, infact I am amazed as to from where a lot of people get all the wrong ideas about the Namdhari Panth!, but your claim is UNTRUE. According to our beliefs, Satguru Ram Singh Ji were the PIONEER who gave Khande Da Pahul to women. In Panth Parkash, Suraj Parkash, Sri Gur Sobha's (original editions), there is no mention of any Mahal of Guru Gobind Singh, or any other woman for that matter being given Khande Da Pahul. It was only with the Kirpa of Satguru Ram Singh Ji that women were given Amrit in the first place and lived according to the Khalsa Rahit. Hence your claim is utter NONSENSE. Please do not make such lousy claims. The following information may be found from Namdhari websites: On the day of Pooranmashi in June of 1858 at the vllage of Siarhr, for the very first time, Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji gave Amrit to women and the word 'Kaur' was suffixed to their names regardless of them being of any caste or social level. Gabroo Khalistan Da, I posted the following on another thread, but it should be useful here as well: Because Namdhari Sikhs were anti British at the time when the rest of the Sikh world was supportive of it - including many Nihangs that were the Mahants of several Gurdwaras, Namdhari Sikhs were harrassed in many ways by the mainstream Sikh population. Often times their congregation, which was banned by the British, was told to the British by the mainstream Sikhs causing the Namdhari Sikhs to be thrown into jails, tortured and many times executed. Often times they were forcefully driven away from the Gurdwaras that were under control of Singh Sabha Lahore including the Darbar Sahib and this led to certain restrictions such as they do not allow Namdhari Singhs to perform Diwan or Kirtan in the Golden Temple etc. But Namdhari Sikhs are definitely not 'banned' from Sikhism as you have mentioned. Yet because the Singhs gladly 'accepted' that 'will of God' and did not ask for mercy from the supporters of British - and neither were they given one - their story is not known much outside the Panth. I do not wish to get too involved in these topics because there already are Namdhari Websites that shed light on them and there is no use of any debate whether Namdharis are Sikhs or not, or the succession of Guruship after Guru Gobind Singh etc. Our history and doings in the past, extracts of which may be found on the websites, speak for themselves as of who we are and what have we done for the Sikh religion and the country of India. If you are interested to learn more about Namdhari Sikhs you may visit all of the following websites: http://www.namdhari-world.com http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk http://namdhari.faithweb.com http://namdhariveg.sytes.net For Namdhari Shabad Kirtan audio and Videos, please visit http://namdhari.faithweb.com/radio.htm There is no clip where any 'Mastana' is present I presume but still it is a good place to hear Gurmat Sangeet sung in Shudh Raags. There are probably only the ones sung by 'Harbhajan Singh', who was a new Namdhari then, that does not conform to the Raag Tradition of the Namdhari Sikhs. Fateh Singh

As for Bhupindranand, if you have one please open page 30 and see if what I say is true or not. I am uncertain about the page of Ripudman Parkash at this moment. But they do contain the information nevertheless. Fateh Singh

Jagroop Singh, Fateh Bullai Parvaan Karni No, it's Harbhajan Singh 'Rattan' of All India Radio. It was long time back, in the 70's if I'm not mistaken. Fateh Singh

Fateh Bullai Parvaan Karni It seems I got a bit confused and made a mistake when I said Gianni Gian Singhji wrote 'Bhupindranand' to protest the KTS. It was 'Ripudman Parkash' in which he protest the Khalsa Tract Society NOT 'Bhupindranand'. Bhupindranand was written by Gianni Gian Singh as well but it sheds light on the invention of Anand Maryada which, according to Gianniji's and also the Namdhari Sikhs' belief, was invented by Guru Ram Singh and not the Nirankaris or any other. Again this is what we believe, and assured by Gianni Gian Singh in that book, since Satguru Ram Singh Ji's own Anand was conducted by reading from Vedic verses as it was the custom back then for all Sikhs. Fateh Singh

Bikramjit Singh, Fateh Bullai Parvaan Karni As for putting up references regarding the Hukamnamas that were falsely modified by Dr. Ganda Singhji, the fact that I, a Namdhari Singh, am telling you that I have read every Hukamnama printed and that their meanings are being falsely portrayed by Dr. Ganda Singhji should be enough shouldn't it? Did Dr. Ganda Singh EVER put up an ENTIRE Hukamnama so that the readers may use their own judgements? I doubt it. If I only use half a verse like 'Kaho Nanak Ham Neech Karama' and lie to people that Guru nanak was a bad person, should it be accepted!!?? There was a Hukamnama that was sent by Sri Sat Guru Ram Singh Ji to the Nihangs and Mahants of Akal Takhat scolding them for spreading 'Koorh' and harrassing the Namdhari Sikhs that were driven away from Gurdwaras that they gave their very heads to save. I wonder why Dr. Ganda Singhji did not use that Hukamnama to portray that Guru Ram Singh believed Guru Gobind Singh had given Gurgaddi to Guru Granth Sahib? I do not wish to hurt any mainstream Sikh's feelings and am therefore forced not to scan the specific Hukamnama and post it online. I infact apologize to have even discussed this matter with you but hope you would understand that when talking about these issues some 'hurt' and 'pain' are customary and hope you'd not take it personally. I really didnot want to start a new thread because I know the majority of the members on this board will start reporting me to be propagating Namdharism and it'll all end up in name callings, anti-sikh stuff, etc. But now that you created it anyway, I might as well use it to answer back the false propaganda against the Namdhari Panth. Your question 1 was that why is the Ardaas not the same. Well if you have ever laid eyes on the old Sikh Gutkas before the Singh Sabha was created, there is no mention of 'Guru Granth Sahib' neither. Yet today in the mainstream Sikh ardaas there is 'Guru Granth Sahib' after Guru Gobind Singh. Is this not tampering with Ardaas as well? Anyway, I do not wish to question your religion and the things you do because what you do out of love for your Guru, even if it means making up 'Agya Bhai Akal Ki', is your wish and we are not 'hurt' by it. Everyone has the right to believe in a religion. I'm more interested in ridding the false propaganda against my religion. Regarding the Ardaas, this is our belief and I do not expect anyone to believe in the same beliefs that we do but just to answer your question, have you thought about the times of the previous Gurus? The Sikhs themselves did add the Guru's names to the Ardaas did they not? So was that a sin? As you know Guru Teghbahader put the Aad Beed under the river Bias and told Dheermal to come get it. He also did the old Ardaas without saying the name of Guru Teghbahader Sahib. Only when he did take the Name of the present Guru did he find the Beed with the Guru's Kirpa. This is written in Suraj Parkash and not any Namdhari propaganda I'm sure you are aware of this. So just to clear your doubts, Namdhari Sikhs believe in the continuation of the Gurgaddi and hence the name of the present Gurus were added to the Ardaas. This is our belief and if you don't believe then it is up to you. Also just to let you know the Ardaas has been modified in such as way that it DOES NOT sound like it is a composition of Guru Ram Singh Ji. We say 'Ik Oankar. Sri Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh. Sri Bhagauti Ji Sahai. Patshahi Baarvi.' (Kindly notice the 'full stops'). We DO NOT say 'Waar Sri Bhagauti Ji Ki Paatshahi Baarvi' which would have given the listener the idea that the Vaar Sri Bhagauti Ji Ki, i.e. Chandi Di vaar was composed by Guru Ram Singh. Hence it is clear that Gurbani is not tampered with. Vaar Sri Bhagauti Ji Ki (Chandi Di Vaar) is composed by Guru Gobind Singh, 'Paatshahi Dasvi', and we recite 'Patshahi Dasvi' as well when doing Chandi Di Vaar. I hope this once and for all answers this question. 2. You said that the Singhs left Chakkar and 'blue' dumala to back stab Nihangs. I do not know from where you have heard about all this but first of all it was a 'Safu' (Dastaar) and not any blue Dumala. Kukas do not wear or even touch blue clothes back in those days. Also it seems that like the rest of the mainstream Sikhs you think that Kukas did not care about 5ks and did not carry weapons. This is a mistake. The Kirpan was banned by the British but every Kuka carried an axe or any other weapon that could be secretly consealed in its place. Now regarding the Chakkar, from what I know the Singhs approached another constable called 'Lal Singh' (who was infact a Namdhari) for weapons and hence he must have also given them the Chakkar. The only reason why it was left on the ground was because the Singhs did not go to a picnic but there was a fight and it is not uncommon that Dastaar may fall off or the Chakkar which is thrown at the muslim becomes lost in the battle. This is common sense questions. If it was for slandering the Nihangs, then why would they return to confess their guilt and die performing Shabad Kirtan as they did? Also not only Nihangs were arrested but many Hindus, infact the majority were hindus, so it does not make sense that the Kukas had slandered the Nihangs. Similar thing also happened in Raikote where the Singhs gracefully accepted their guilt and became martyres. Just so you know, the names of those convicted were: Heera Singh, Ahya and Jai Ram. These became known as the culprits and the others whose name will be given below were arrested: Sant Ram Ram Krishan Manna Singh Jawala Singh Pannaji Mula Nihal Singh Mayya Sunder Singh Bhup Singh Teka Shoba As you can see the majority of the innocent people convicted by Mr. Christie were Hindus and they were all tortured to confess their 'guilt'. The Kukas had no idea about this. They did their job and continued pilgrimming towards Sri Bhaini Sahib where the Guru told them about what had happened and they at once agreed to die in place of the innocents. Please also note that the Hindus and Nihangs had previously filed claims against the slaughter house with the police and there were little petty fights between Hindus (Perhaps also Nihangs) and the butchers before the incident by the Kukas as well. This may very well be the actual reason why they captured Hindus and Nihangs and not Namdharis. If I may ask, is this also something published in an anti-Kuka book by either Dr. Ganda Singhji or Jathedar Partap Singhji? If yes then that explains why the 'blue DUMALA' has been fabricated. These two scholars have written many other utter nonsense such as claiming that Satguru Ram Singh Ji were Nihang and wore blue clothes! (I can't even believe someone would be able to think about this when the Guru himself prohibits the SIkhs to wear attires of muslims). Gianni Partap Singh has even blindly written that Guru Ram Singh had cut his hair!! and even that the Guru burnt a Beed of Granth Sahib!! These are mere NONSENSE and BIAS. How could the Satguru who highly valued the Khalsa tradition and is believed by every Namdhari Sikh to be the incarnation of Guru Gobind Singh have ever cut his hair? Not a single Namdhari has even heard about these things yet Jathedar Partap Singhji has written them without thinking twice and even claimed that they are written in a book by a Namdhari Sant! Also regarding burning the Aad Granth Sahib, this is what ACTUALLY took place: A few premi Sikhs once approached Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji requesting him to Uchaar Gurbani. The Guru ordered a Beed of Granth Sahib to be brought and wrapped it in a 'saff' blanket. The Guru then set fire to the blanket. If it was you or me who set the fire the Granth Sahib would have burnt without a doubt. But just like how Guru Teghbahader Sahib's Grace protected the Granth Sahib from water when he put it under the river Beas, the Granth Sahib around which was a burning saff blanket was not even touched by the heat with the Guru's Kirpa. After the BLANKET was BURNT to ashes, the Satguru said "Dhan Nanak Dhan Nanak Dhan Nanak". Now I'm sure if Dr. Ganda Singh was reading this he would have tried to use this Kautak and say that "Dhan Nanak" meant that the Granth Sahib was 'Nanak'! But just to let you know after Praising Guru Nanak, Guru Ram Singh said "Eho Bani Da Uchaar Karna Hai": This (Dhan Nanak) is the Bani to be spoken. By doing this Satguruji refused to add or compose Bani to be added to the Granth Sahib but to teach Sikhs to pay attention and live according to what is ALREADY written within the Granth Sahib instead. This may also be the reason why Sri Satguru Gobind Singh Ji did not include his own priceless Banis in the Aad Granth Sahib. I would also like to shed light on another big propaganda against the Namdhari Panth made these days regarding the 'Patrra Paath'. It was once conducted by Namdhari Sikhs as ordered by Sri Satguru Partap Singh Ji and a volume of Aad Granth Sahib Ji was PROPERLY and RESPECTFULLY DISASSEMBLED. Yet today the mainstream Sikhs are falsely accusing us of 'tearing apart' pages from Sri Aad Granth Sahib. This is NOT TRUE and also a total BIAS that is used to fuel the general public's anger without any reason. If disassembling Granth Sahib is a sin, then why do the mainstream Sikhs put parts of Gurbani on holiday cards and send them around, many of which even end up in garbage I am ashamed to say!? Why do they extract verses from the Granth Sahib and make calendars and Gutkas? This is mere superstition and we have nothing to say much about this other than listen to them in amazement. If the mainstream Sikhs' feelings were 'hurt' because of the Patra Paath then at least they should be thankful that we consider their feelings and do not conduct the prayer anymore with Satguruji's Kirpa. I have given the answers honestly with the facts that I know are for certain. If there is any other false propaganda against the Namdhari Panth that should be addressed please do not hesitate to ask. Yet it is also requested that you kindly show some respect towards my Satgurus. If you do not call them 'Guru' then at least as the Singh Sabha writers write 'Sant' or 'Babaji' is also acceptible. We do not hurt your feelings and so we expect the same in return. Fateh Singh

Bikramjit Singh, Fateh Parvaan Karni Giani Gian Singh received Naam and that's pretty much it. If someone reads his Kabits about Namdhari Sikhs in Panth Parkash there is no much doubt that he probably did believe in Guru Ram Singh as the incarnation of Guru Gobind Singh be cause he wrote that he has written whatever he has 'seen'. He was a much respected figure and everyone wanted him to be on their side. Why else would the Khalsa Tract Society force him to sell his rights and change his works? If he had declared himself a Kuka, what kind of pressure and harrassment he would have had to go through I think you can probably guess. It is also unfortunately true that many Namdhari Sikhs were forcefully converted to the mainstream Sikhism and many also became so due to the harrassment and tortures they received from the mainstream Sikhs. It's one thing to be harrassed by Muslims or Christians who have a totally different faith. But to be harrassed and tortured by those who look very much like you and believe in the same basic principles and Banis, it is absolutely heart-breaking. Even the great and mighty Banda Bahadur fell when he saw his own brothers of faith fighting against his army. You may not know this but some of the mainstream Sikhs used to do things so 'low' (humanly speaking) as sending their dogs after any Namdhari Sikh or group of Namdhari Sikhs that they see walking in the neighborhood. There is a well known Sakhi of one Namdhari Sant, Sant Takhat Singh ji, who was also once forced to be converted but he refused and after being detained inside a house for sometime became mastana and broke loose without anyone being able to stop him. But just for your knowledge Gianni Gian Singh did repent on what the Khalsa Tract Society had forced into his mouth by taking out the Kabits about Namdhari Sikhs and putting 'Agya Bhei Akal Ki' instead, that's why he wrote 'Bhupendranand'. But also he was an old man then, what could he have possibly done? Nevertheless this may be a sign of his loyalty towards Namdharism or maybe just the frustration he felt knowing his hard work was tampered with. Nirmala or Namdhari is up to the Guru to know. Also to let you know, there have been several Namdharis in the past that are pretty much 'Premis': The lovers and admirers of Gurus. There have been Nihang Namdharis, Muslim Namdharis, Budhist Namdharis etc. These people acknowledge Satguru Ram Singh to be the Avatar of God, Allah, Akal or whatever they believe in. They receive the Gurmantra and recite the Gurmantra but do not partake Amrit and become 'Sant Khalsa'. Just imagine the case of Bhai Nand Lal. In fact there were many muslim-Namdharis who performed Asa Di Waar in the Darbar of Sri Bhaini Sahib and yet they had a request made to the Guru that when they die they be buried and not burnt. So if you think Gianni Gian Singh did not live as a 'Sant Khalsa' or a pure Kuka, then he might have been what may be called a nirmala-Namdhari: A person who lives mostly within the rules of Nirmala panth but has received, and recites with Sharda, the Naam. Which prophecy of the Guru did not come true? I do not know of any prophecy made by Guru Ram Singh that did not come true. Namdhari Sikhs believe in the prophecies of Sau Sakhi, which unfortunately has been tampered by the British and its supporters later on by changing dates etc., which is directly attributed to Guru Gobind Singh. There is also quite a lot of false propaganda going on that the Guru 'realized' he was not Guru when he reached Rangoon and informed the Sangat via Hukamnamas etc. This is all BIAS that has been published by one anti-Kuka Dr. Ganda Singh with the help of an ex-Namdhari that was kicked out of the panth. Together they got hold of certain Hukamnamas and forged many of their own for their own benefits. What they have done is that they have published bits and pieces of the Hukamnamas and interpret its meanings to fit their needs. Where the Guru had ordered the Namdhari Sikhs to do Ardaas saying 'Guru Gobind Singh Ji Sub Thai Hoy Sahai', Dr. Ganda Singh had made up stuff that the Guru was actually saying he was not the real Guru but Guru Gobind Singh was! Similarly in places where the Guru tried to stop his Sikhs from endangering their lives and travel so far to Rangoon and said that he was not worth as a Guru for them to risk their lives to meet, Dr. Ganda Singhji has interpreted and transcribed only the part where the Guru said he's not a Guru and tried to use it as some kind of valid proof! If I was to take a certain part of Gurbani that can be missinterpreted without reading the full verse and try to fool people to believe it, will that be a justified act? Also another big propaganda that was launched by the British and is carried on till today is that their claim of Guru Ram Singh dying in 1885. This has been rightly answered at http://namdhari.faithweb.com/1885.htm and that should solve the mystery I guess. I have made my points crystal clear and I don't think anything needs to be clarified further. I rest my case unless there is any other point that has not been answered. Fateh Singh

jtsingh, Fateh parvaan Karni, You are entitled to your beliefs but I have shown clearly what Gianiji himself has written and his relationship with the Namdhari Panth. Please spend some time reading my post without jumping to conclusions. Fateh Singh

sukhsingh, Fateh Singh di Fateh Bulai Parvaan karni Because Namdhari Sikhs were anti British at the time when the rest of the Sikh world was supportive of it - including many Nihangs that were the Mahants of several Gurdwaras, Namdhari Sikhs were harrassed in many ways by the mainstream Sikh population. Often times their congregation, which was banned by the British, was told to the British by the mainstream Sikhs causing the Namdhari Sikhs to be thrown into jails, tortured and many times executed. Often times they were forcefully driven away from the Gurdwaras that were under control of Singh Sabha Lahore including the Darbar Sahib and this led to certain restrictions such as they do not allow Namdhari Singhs to perform Diwan or Kirtan in the Golden Temple etc. But Namdhari Sikhs are definitely not 'banned' from Sikhism as you have mentioned. Yet because the Singhs gladly 'accepted' that 'will of God' and did not ask for mercy from the supporters of British - and neither were they given one - their story is not known much outside the Panth. I do not wish to get too involved in these topics because there already are Namdhari Websites that shed light on them and there is no use of any debate whether Namdharis are Sikhs or not, or the succession of Guruship after Guru Gobind Singh etc. Our history and doings in the past, extracts of which may be found on the websites, speak for themselves as of who we are and what have we done for the Sikh religion and the country of India. If you are interested to learn more about Namdhari Sikhs you may visit all of the following websites: http://www.namdhari-world.com http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk http://namdhari.faithweb.com http://namdhariveg.sytes.net For Namdhari Shabad Kirtan audio and Videos, please visit http://namdhari.faithweb.com/radio.htm There is no clip where any 'Mastana' is present I presume but still it is a good place to hear Gurmat Sangeet sung in Shudh Raags. There are probably only the ones sung by 'Harbhajan Singh', who was a new Namdhari then, that does not conform to the Raag Tradition of the Namdhari Sikhs. Fateh Singh

Mr. Bhai Sahib, Fateh Singh Di Fateh Bulai Parvaan Karniji Let me assure you once again that when I say Namdhari Sikhs DO NOT drive any one away from Diwans, I also meant the Naam Simran sessions which may be held in Gurdwaras or in houses as PART of the normal Diwan. Also even privately in a Namdhari-only congregation we DO NOT speak aloud the Gurmantra, let alone shouting it. And no one is kicked out as you have falsely claimed. Hence your claim has no truth in it. I do not know who gave you this idea and how you got it. As for the AKJ's method of doing simran, I do not know and do not care how they do it as long as they do it with Sharda. Only the Satguru can determine if he is satisfied with the meathod of Naam Simran a person is doing or not. Namdhari Sikhs do not get involved or fight over such things. Namdhari Sikhs were called Kukas because of their loud shouts during Diwan and Shabad Kirtan in which many would become intoxicated with bliss, especially in the pressence of the Satguru, and become 'Mastanas'. Fateh Singh

Dear BiranjitSingh, Fateh Singh Di Fateh Bullai Parvaan Karniji. I'd like to point out a few things: a) Gianni Gian Singh's original Panth Parkash does not have 'Agya Bhei Akal Ki'. This was only later added after the Khalsa Tract society had already bought his rights. This is also mentioned in the newer Panth Parkash where something like 'Gurmukh Singh Agya Mohe Dini..' is written with the 'Agya Bhei Akal Ki..' where the name of Prof. Gurmukh Singhji of the Singh Sabha Lahore is mentioned. 'Agya Bhei Akal Ki..' is not Gurbani. Bahadur Bhai Kahn Singh ji Nabha has also written so in the Mahan Kosh while defining the word 'Prehlad Singh'. c) The Kabits about the Kukas were later taken out without the consent of Gianiji and only 'Agya Bhei Akal Ki..' was left. I am not sure from which edition, printed in which year, you are quoting from. d) Gianni Gian Singh ji didnot wholeheartedly approve of the meddling with his works. This can be found in his small booklet called 'Bhupendranand' in which he had scornfully called the members of Khalsa Tract Society as 'Naam Singh Yed Dil Ke Chore' : Their Names are Singhs but they are thieves at heart. e) Gianni Gian Singh ji stayed at Gurdwara Sri Bhaini Sahib for about 20 days and had presented his works before the Sangat. He had also undoubtedly received Naam as he himself writes something like 'Jo Kehtay Kalaam Sub Koorh. Ham Paykhia Ajmai Kay': Those who say the Kukas reveal Kalaam is all trash-talk. I have tested it myself. f) Here it might also be useful to shed some light on the truth and get rid of the propaganda made by recent non-Namdhari writers who claim that Namdhari Sikhs were 'tied to cannon' and blown away. As if they were afraid of death. This is NOT TRUE and as Giani Gian Singhji has also written in Panth Parkash, the Singhs were fighting each other to be the first to stand before the cannons. Gianni Gian Singhji was an eye-witness to the martyrdom of Singhs who attacked Malerkotla so there is absolutely no doubt regarding his authority on this issue. g) Many Namdhari websites also offer a translation of the Kabits about Namdhari in Panth Parkash that were later taken out by the Khalsa Tract Society, a branch of Singh Sabha, such as http://namdhari-world.com and the entire 28 Kabits may be found there. I do not wish to get involved in any discussion or debate about whether or not the Namdharis are Sikhs or about the succession of Guruship which never leads to any positive resolution. But as you have mentioned both the Namdhari Panth and Gianni Gian Singhji, who did receive Naam and can be technically called a Namdhari, I decided to share what I know about them for certain. Fateh Singh

Dear Cyber Sangat, Fateh Singh di Fateh Bulai Parvaan Karniji. I have come across the following post regarding Namdhari Sikhs that I found to be a total bias and gives people the wrong idea and so I decided to post a reply to it. If anyone has actually been to a Namdhari Diwan, he or she will not be saying such things. Namdhari Sikhs DONOT reveal the Gurmantra by saying it out loud. The word 'Mantra' is from the Sanskrit 'Manoh' meaning 'to recite in secret/silence'. Hence no Namdhari Sikh shouts out or KOOKs the Naam. Mr. Bhai Sahib's claims are utterly false. I am saying this as I am a Namdhari Singh myself. Namdhari Sikhs DO, or atleast they are expected to, recite Naam with each and every breath they take. There have also been quite many Namdhari Sants who would stay awake for over 20 hours a day reciting Naam with every breath. One of them, a remarkable Sant Jawahar Singh ji Mirze Walay, is also a well known figure in the Panth who after receiving Naam from Satguru Ram Singh Ji was given the instruction to recite Naam with every breath. This he followed so strictly that he eventually gave up sleeping for the rest of his life! Also it must be understood once and for all that no one is driven away from Namdhari Diwans or Asa Di War as falsely claimed by Mr. Bhai Sahib. I do not know which Namdhari Sikh he talked to or if he even talked to one at all! No matter to which caste or religion a person may belong to, he is always given a place in the Diwan. There has never been any incident of any Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Budhists, African or any member of a Sikh sect being denied entry into the Diwan. Mr. Bhai Sahib's claims are not true. Fateh Singh