fatehsingh

I'm sorry. I guess it's my own lack of awareness. When you say akj simran I think of the loud bang bang and "groo groo" audio someone posted on YouTube a while back. So I'm not aware of how it is the least bit similar to Namdharis who became Mast upon hearing Gurbani being sung or the Darshan of the Satguru, and not while doing simran.

Namdhari creation - 1857

Became known as Kukas - 1863

Singh Sabha Amritsar creation - 1873

Singh Sabha Lahore creation - 188x

Gurbani says not to chant Gurmantar loudly - "Ucha Nahi Kena Mann Mein Rehna"

How did the guy came up with Nsmdharis doing simran with harmoniums like AKJ and being a "post Singh sabhia" revolution etc.... I don't know

if you look at the use of harmonium waja and the style of kirtan, the way the tabla is being played, saas giraas simran, etc. a lot of this is post-singh sabha reproduction of namdhari simran. thats why they were called 'kookay'.

I'm speechless. The lack of awareness. I give up.

I can only pray this should get this useless 2-headed politician kicked out of Namdhari Darbar for good! That will be 2 great news in just a few days!

Dont equate Gurmat Parchaar or Shabd Guru parchaar as being automatically anti-dehdhari parchaar. Whats so special about Jagjit Singh that someone would desire to meet him? That he's in a long line of pretenders?

And it was the 10 Gurus of sikhi that said bani is the satGuru. if anyone says otherwise, then they are lying.

I hope you or your Ustad or your Ustad's Ustad are do not follow/make a living off of the Vidya taught by the 'pretender'. Otherwise some ill-minded people would say it's like biting the hand that feeds you.

Jokes aside, I'm sorry if you felt I insulted your Sant/Babaji. But if you reread my post calmly, you will find that I had no such intention.

I think we're done here since you don't know of the names of any prominent/authoritative Sant-Khalsa Babaji had met with and neither do I, so I guess we can agree he had no authoritative information or came to know of it at a later date as he did not do any specific anti-Namdhari parchar since and the Damdami Taksal today also has positive relationship with Namdharis. Anyone with any questions please pm directly.

Laterz,

FS

Hold on bro. Sant Jarnail Singh visited your dera in Hissar, which if im not mistaken is the 2nd biggest place you have. While he was there he invited the local Sant-Khalsa to come to Mehta Chowk to do kirtan. To say that he never cared to meet any Sant-Khalsa prominent or not, is false.

The tonnes of misinformation that is about, is mainly of people claiming to be Guru's, holding the Jyot that Guru Nanak held, including the ones you call your guru.

even radha swamis say that Guru Nanak passed on gurgaddi to their guru. why should we beleive you over them?

Chatanga,

I believe you are referring to Jeevan Nagar, the area that was procured for people who were driven out of Pakistan. Who did he meet there exactly? From what I've heard is that he only went there to do anti-dehdhari parchar. He's never met either Satguru Jagjit Singh or Maharaj Bir Singh. If you know of any other prominent personality from the Sant-Khalsa that he has met please do let me know.

I don't think I wrote that he did not care to meet 'non-prominent' Sant-Khalsa. Which even if he did is unfortunately of not much value to him spiritually because it is like me meeting you or N30 and basing my judgement of the entire singh-sabha panth on either one of you, which would be absolutely incorrect.

Yes I agree the tonnes of hatred and missinformation is because of what you said. But by your logic also those who follow specific dehdhari gurus can say that within singh sabhias(Those who recite 'Agya Bhei Akal ki' after ardas) there are those who claim Granth Sahib is Guru, some say the Bani (not necesarily in the Granth form) is the Guru, some say Both Granth Sahibs are, some say 3 Granth Sahibs are, and others say Granth Sahib + Panth is Guru and many other combinations exists including those who also acknowledge the Panj Pyaras and Sants of their upsampardayas as equally Guru to the Granth Sahibs/Banis. So while what you say is perfectly true that people get 'bored' of trying to learn and just wish to paint every dehdhari-guru lineage of today with the same brush of ignorance, ask yourself will it also be fair for others to paint all singh sabhias (Those who recite 'Agya Bhei Akal ki' after ardas) with same kind of 'To hell with them!' brush? That would be quite a shame wouldn't it?

I doubt Baba Jarnail Singh knew too much about Namdharis other than what was 'parchalat' in Punjab at the time. Sadly even today there is a ton of misinformation. As far as I know Baba Jarnail Singh never met with any prominent Namdharis, nor did he care to. He spoke against all sareerdhari Gurus as it was his understanding of the Granth Sahib. Those adhering to Guru-Sikh parampara and older sampardayas evidently had a different view and more importantly the Damdami Taksal leadership and Sadhs of today has a positive relationship with and respect for Namdharis.

Similarly there's the misinformation that Namdharis are 'anti-akalis' and 'pro-congress' bs that completely ignores the passage of Anand Marriage act, the Guru-Ka-Bagh saga which eventually led to SGPC-zation of all Sikh gurdwaras (even though Namdharis were against the latter method of painting all Nirmalas, Udassis and Addanshahis with the brush of being traitors - as evident in the Satjug newspaper of the time, they did support Akali Dal against the british influence on Sikh Gurdwaras via corrupt mahants - search tribuneindia.com), and it also ignores the fact that both Akali party and congress, just like BJP and the rest of the indian political thugs, are equally unethical and money hungry promoting discontent and hatred among people for their political gains.

Probably some Namdhari drew it. Look at how the mullahs are all wearing dark blue and not a single Khalsa is wearing 'neel' (dark blue). Is there a date for the painting?

Lol this topic used to be a petpeev of mine.

Search Suraj Parkash, Bansavlinama by Kesar Singh Chibbar and other pre-singh sabhia (1873) and even pre-Namdhari (1857) writings for your own understanding.

If I remember correctly in Mahan Kosh Bhai Kahn Singh says something along the line that "For those who claim there was no actual Bir present: So what if there was no real Aad Granth Sahib present to give Gurgaddi to, Gurgaddi can be transfered via 'spiritual intentions'!"

Good luck!

I've heard there's mention of the coming of Guru Nanak by one Hajrat Unnis in Islamic texts. Have no idea who Hajrat Unnis is.

There is musical talent and then there is 'Raag'. There is less Raag in certain 'well known' and commercialized Ragis today than in 1 finger of a Sikh like Ragi Khajan Singh. He, like those of his status are best known for their love for the Satguru. He at one point stop playing the Tabla all together when the Satguru diverted attention towards anything else other than him during Kirtan. Definitely a beloved Sikh of the Satguru and much missed personality.

When did 'Khanda' became part of Sikh flag?

None of the pictures posted are from the Guru Nanak Naam Leva conference in 1934. Cybersingh lost your specs?

an extra a

pal07, i will give you the whole granth: www.ik13.com please go find where Kaviji (and not the commentor of the granth i.e. vir singh) supports your claim that Bed Bidhi was not followed and then you can tell guptsingh about it.

I have done the search in suraj parkash like you asked me to and pasted the result. i cant be bothered to listen to kathas if what they are referring to is unverifiable. it is just propaganda and not fact. nanak parkash is what first part of suraj parkash is called fyi.

Chatanga,

Been busy man.

Which work of Giani Gian Singh and what exactly (during which Guru's time period) is that? Be more specific and careful about time period.

Guptsingh1699,

While Rahetnamas are mostly unreliable, still they are all post 1699 period, by this time Guru Gobind Singh's 2 marriages have all been performed. Mata Sahib Deva's Anand was 1 year and a few days later. So it is possible that Guru Gobind Singh initiated a form of Anand (be it by reciting Anand after Ardas or any other ritual) AFTER his own marriages. This is what the evidence suggest anyhow. Thanks for sharing the facts.

Pal07. I was kind of shocked to read that and thought maybe the newer version of Suraj Parkash have been modified. Checked ik13.com's version and in Nanak Parkash it says the following about Guru Nanak's Anand:

Bed Ke Mantar Uchaar Tabai Shubh Reet Karee Jiv Bed Ne Gai.

I'm not sure which version you're reading from?

Will be good if facts shared are more specific and verified. Keep it going.

Excellent points by Harjas Kaur answering Laal Singh's good questions. Is this fixed or something? lol

Reference - Gur Panth Prakash - vol 2 - by Giani Gian Singh

Page 1100 - first marriage of Dasam Patshah

bedi bed bidhi yut bar bad

bisukarma suth that thaye

Page1303 - second marriage of Dasam Patshah

saha turteh layeo sudhaee

sabhai samagri tyar karaee

reet bed kul kar sabh bhai

satgur kau fere karvai.

According to the accounts above, 'BED BIDHI' was the vidhee (ritual) used in marriages of Guru Gobind Singh.

Per Namdhari tradition, the Anand of Guru Ram Singh and Guru Hari Singh were also performed with the Vedic ritual.

From my own research, even though the Nirankari claim to be the first to circumbate the Granth Sahib (Probably Aad Sri Granth Sahib and not Dasam Sri Granth Sahib), there is no record that they used the Laava (and not Anand Sahib) or how many times they circumbate the Granth Sahib when their Maryada first began. Also it is surprising that there was obviously no ruckus made by the Brahmins against the Nirankaris for creating their own Anand Maryada because when the Namdharis did so, they filed cases and threatened to throw themselves into fire and let the 'sin of killing a brahmin' fall on Namdharis, lol!

Giani Gian Singh also credits Namdharis, Guru Ram Singh in particular, as the one to introduce Anand marriage. Interestingly, however, Bhai Kahn Singh's article on Baba Ajapal Singh, who Namdharis assume to be Guru Gobind Singh per Baba Saroop Singh's narration, performed 2 Anand Karaj (that Baba Saroop Singh knew of) by reciting Anand Sahib after perorming Ardas, no circumbating around anything! Ignoring the fact whether you consider Baba Ajapal Singh to be Baba Ajapal Singh or Guru Gobind Singh, an Anand Karaj was definitely performed in a NON-VEDIC manner, possibly for the first time in recorded Sikh history!

This is an interesting topic and I wish people will share more facts rather than 'my chacha said so and so'.

Namdhari Dastar tying Maryada as taught at Sri Bhaini Sahib during Vidiyak Sammelans:

No ironing/folding with help of another person.

No looking in the mirror.

No putting any part of the Dastar in the mouth or allowing it to touch the ground.

Do Kangha before tying.

Mathetek the larrh before tying.

Unfortunately there's a lot of bad influence and very small percentage outside Punjab adhere to the rules above.

In the late 1800's the Nihang influence was very strong in the Namdhari Panth and the rest of the Sikh world, as was the Nirmala influence, hence the Khanda and Chakkars in the turbans of many Namdhari Sikh Jathedars. There was also a good amount of Namdharis who did not deck out their turbans such as the 3 Sant Kesar Singhs and even Suba Gurcharan Singh, the 70+ year old Suba who travelled from Burma to Russia carrying Hukamnama of Satguru Ram Singh.

Many Namdhari Sants also tied the 'tedi' (kind of like singh sabhia style but without putting 1 larrh in the mouth when tying) style as it was a sign of a devoutee (Ashik Ashik Har Koi Kahai, Sir Tedi Pagree Dhar Ke - Kavi Bihari Ji, kavi of Guru Gobind Singh). However, the decked out multi-tier, conical or extremely tall dumalas of some Nihangs, was never officially adopted or approved in the Namdhari Panth, as they were generally seen as a sign of 'holier than thou' (uche bunge wale).

And by the way, that picture was a life size painted by a great Sant, Sant Waryam Singh (Mussavarji), during the time of Satguru Partap Singh Ji.

Been trying to find this track for ages. If anyone has it, please let me know.

Many Thanks,

FS

hmm, a little weird. on one hand it does seem a little far fetched, but on the other hand its hard to understand why Macauliffe would make this up, unless he actually did somehow see it or knew someone who enforced this. are there any other sources about this?

Wasn't Macauliffe's work published with great assistance and supervision from pro-british singh sabhia vidvaans? There is a phony prophecy of 'topi wala sikhs' (british) allegedly made by Guru Teghbahadur Sahib not found anywhere else in his work as well. Maccauliffe was certainly not alive back then either. So the question is, how much of what he wrote was first hand witness and how much was spoon fed to him by the accepted 'vidvaans' who he had no reason to doubt or to not trust them at the time and who were these vidvaans who gave him the material?

I have heard many people refer to this granth unfortunatly i know nothing about this.

Could someone please enlighten me on;

as to who is the author?

when was it created?

what is it about?

what is its relevance with sikhi?

where can i read it on the net?

most important where can i buy it from?

It is yet another Granth attributed to Guru Gobind Singh. No clear date is known. In Satguru Ram Singh's Hukamnamas from Burma it is mentioned that the Prem Sumarag Granth Should be referred to when making any official/political decisions that are not covered by Sri Adi and Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. It is a book of Maryadas in a way. There are certain variations around as well just like all Granths, certain things are conflicting, i.e. Maryada with regards to vegetarianism etc. Amardeep, weren't you reading it some time back?

Fateh Singh Ji,

Who would you say at present are gems (traditionalists) within the Namdhari Darbar?

Have they released any CDs or are there recordings of them available?

Thanks.

These gems don't release any CD's though. I am not aware of any recordings on the internet (thank god!). You'd have to go to Bhaini Sahib and hopefully if it is their cue that day to perform Asa Di Vaar or evening Kirtan, you'd certainly find out within a few minutes from their replacement of taans with tremendous parmaan tuks from both Granth Sahibs. I'm not naming anyone as most of them are young generation (20- early 30's).

.