randip singh

To all reading Guru Da Sikh responses, please keep in mind that my responses are the ONLY ones being CENSORED !

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That really is out of order. Come on Admin, I for one want to see all the facts, and please cut the nasty bile ridden comments out from certain people here. Lets debate the issues and not the people, and find some common ground.

Have a debate at Sikh philosophy. You gotta be kidding me. The mod's there like Randip will delete anything that doesn't go with their twisted way of thinking. The Vaheguruseekr guy then there latest vgrewal guy are completely anti-Gurmat.

Plus they have anti-gurmat ads on that place. I talked to the Admin about it and they don't do anything about it. They act like it's not there. Bunch of hypocrites there.

If you post abuse there, like you have you get booted. Sikh2 aka Inder Singh posted personal comments that is why he is crying like you too. Maybe you guys can cry together?

Thanks for lying Randip. I was never forced out of SPN, but left on my own because I choose not to be with people like you.(what luck I have your on this forum aswell.) Here is a reminder, you sent me an pm telling me to come back after I said i was leaving. I hope it's clicking in now. If I still have the pm you sent me I will post it here.

Matter of fact here it is. Randip I got no words for your behaviour

REPORT THIS PRIVATE MESSAGE Private Message: Re: Don't Take it So Personally

24-04-2009, 01:03 PM

randip singh

Enrolled: May 2005

Location: United Kingdom

Age: 40

Posts: 1,388

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Thanked 217 Times in 129 Posts

Don't Take it So Personally >>

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Come on man, don't take it so personally. Bhaghat Singh and Raj Singh have been chastised by me in the past, and you got it this time, not because of your views but because of a variety of other reason (which I really don't want to discuss).

The idea is to create good intellectual debates, unless you want this forum to go down the toilet like Sikhsangat (and I am pretty sure you don't want that).

The rest is up to you. Learn, move on. Contribute.

No one writes at the end of there pm 'the rest is up to you' if Admin or mod's forced me out.

Looks like you ran away from this PM. Nice try, but a big fail!

They have only translated it, the article is by Piara Singh Padam.

I wouldn't trust those fellas at panthic.org to boil water for me, in case the burn it! Forget posting Dr Padam's translation. Sorry, it is just the way I feel.

The irony is that randip does not know who is Paira singh padam.

err hmmm duh, I wonder who he is? Try again matey.

Any reference for that?

Read below to know your other answers

Authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib - Prof Piara Singh Padam

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Authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib

Prof. Piara Singh Padam

Guru Gobind Singh Ji, the tenth heir of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, possessed great qualities of a warrior and a poet. He used the might of sword and pen equally to bring a revolution in lives of common people. Without a match, he was the ideal Guru, poet and a warrior. The 'Khande-Dhaar' Bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is so powerful that it possesses powers to turn water into Amrit and make volcanoes erupt from lifeless soil to give birth to revolutions. This is not merely an example of a fantasy; life sketch of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is full of such examples.

An example of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's warrior spirit comes from the creation of the Khalsa Panth and the bani in 'Dasam Granth Sahib' details his influential ability as a high-class poet very precisely. The Dasam Granth Sahib is a collection of various writings of the Dasam Guru which was compiled after his 'jyoti-jot' with the motivation and instructions of Mata Sundar Kaur Ji. This effort was undertaken by Bhai Mani Singh Ji's attendant scholars, including Bhai Sheea Singh Ji. The following are the prominent writings of the Dasam Granth Sahib:

Jaap Sahib, Akaal Ustat, Gyaan Parbodh, Shastar Naam-Mala, Chandi Charitrokti Bilas, Vaar Durga Ki, Bachitar Natak, Charitro Pakhyaan, Hakayat and Zafarnaama. In addition, there are 'Shabad Ragaa Ke' (shabads written in various ragas), 32 Sawaeay, Khalsa Mehima, Khyaal, Sadd and the Asfotak Chands.

The Bachitar Natak and the Charitro Pakhyaan are two most extensive banis of Dasam Granth Sahib. The Bachitar Natak narrates the tail of various ancient gods and goddesses in a modern and enthusiastic way. Terminology and wording full of bir-russ is used to help people learn appropriate lessons from lives of their idols. The banis focus chiefly on the common people so they could be influenced to take part in the revolution started by Guru Sahib. Maintaining traditions isn't very difficult, but to use these traditions to scheme for contemporary development is certainly an art. This was the main purpose of mentioning stories and tales of various gods and goddesses. Guru Gobind Singh Ji made sure that he isn't mistaken as a worshipper of demigods and he clearly denounced such worship in many places in Dasam Granth Sahib. He states that his main notion behind writing accounts of Sri Ram, Sri Krishna and

Durga is only to uplift the spirit of war in the people:

ਦਸਮ ਕਥਾ ਭਾਗੌਤ ਕੀ, ਭਾਖਾ ਕਰੀ ਬਨਾਇ,

ਅਵਰਿ ਬਾਸਨਾ ਨਾਂਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ, ਧਰਮਜੁੱਧ ਕੇ ਚਾਇ॥2491॥ (ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਅਵਤਾਰ)

I have composed the discourse of the tenth part (Skandh) of Bhagavat in the vernacular; O Lord! I have no other desire and have only the zeal for the war fought on the basis of righteousness.2491.

Another clear note from the Krishna Avtar:

ਮੈਂ ਨਾ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਉਂ। ਕਿਸਨ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹਿ ਧਿਆਊਂ।

ਕਾਨਿ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋ। ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋ॥434॥ (ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਅਵਤਾਰ)

I do not adore Ganesha as being the highest and also do not meditate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Akal Purakh).434.

A similar note is found in the katha of Rama Avtar:

ਪਾਂਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ

ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋਊ ਆਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਨਯੋ।

ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ

ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ॥863॥

O God ! the day when I caught hold of your feet, I do not bring anyone else under my sight; none other is liked by me now; the Puranas and the Quran try to know Thee by the names of Ram and Rahim and talk about you through several stories, but I do not accept any of their opinions.

The four hundred and five chapters long Charitro Pakhyaan states prevalent tails of misconduct of men and women. These were penned for the purpose of ensuring that the newly initiated 'Sant Sipahis' (Saintly Warriors) do not become victim of such wrongdoing. In those days, brothels were rather popular and existed freely without interference of law or common norms. The soul purpose of writing such stories was to keep the Sikhs on the right path. For Example:

ਰੀਤਿ ਨ ਜਾਨਤ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕੀ, ਪੈਸਨ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤਿ।

ਬਿਛੂ ਬਿਸੀਅਰ ਬੇਸਵਾ, ਕਹਹੁ ਕਵਨ ਕੇ ਮੀਤ। (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 16)

(She) is not acquainted with love; her attachment remains limited to money. Has a scorpion, snake or a prostitute ever been friends with anyone?

Same teaching is again repeated in the following sentences:

ਸੁਧ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਹਮ ਧਰੀ, ਬਚਨ ਗੁਰ ਦਏ ਹਮਾਰੇ

ਪੂਤ! ਯਹੈ ਪ੍ਰਣ ਤੋਹਿ, ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਜਬ ਲਗ ਘਟਿ ਥਾਰੇ,

ਨਿਜ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਸੰਗ ਨੇਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਨੀਤ ਬਢਈਅਹੁ

ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੀ ਸੇਜ ਭੂਲਿ ਸੁਪਨੇ ਹੂੰ ਨ ਜਈਅਹੂ॥51॥

Ever since growing up, my Guru gave me the following instructions: "Son! As long as there is breath in your body, continually increase the affection with your wife and do not go into the bed of another woman even in dreams."

ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਭਜੇ ਸਹਸ ਬਾਸਵ ਭਗ ਪਾਏ

ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਭਜੇ ਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਕਾਲੰਕ ਲਗਾਏ

ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਹੇਤੁ, ਸੀਸ 'ਦਸ ਸੀਸ ਗਵਾਯੋ

ਹੋ ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੈਹਤੁ, ਕਟਕ ਕਵਰਨ ਕੋ ਘਾਯੋ॥42॥ (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 21)

Because Indra mated with another's woman, he came to bear thousands of marks of female organs. The same reason caused denigration to the moon. For sake of another's women, the Ravan also had to loose his ten heads and the same also caused devastation to the Kauravs.

ਜਨਨਿ ਜਠਰ ਮਹਿਂ ਆਇ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਹੁਤੇ ਦੁਖ ਪਾਵਹਿ

ਮੂਤ੍ਰ ਧਾਮ ਕੋ ਪਾਇ, ਕਹਹਿ ਹਮ ਭੋਮ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ

ਥੂਕ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਾ ਕੋ ਚਾਟਿ, ਕਹਿਤ ਅਧਰਾਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪਾਯੋ

ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਗਤ ਮੈਂ ਜਨਮ, ਬਿਨਾ ਜਸਦੀਸ਼ ਗਵਾਯੋ। (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 81)

One faces many pains while in the womb of his mother. By mating with a woman and licking her saliva, he claims to receive pleasures. But at the end his life is wasted in the world without meditation of God.

These teachings are asserted by almost all lecturers during Anand Karajs and never does anyone in the Sikh Sangat demonstrate any rejection upon them. It is true that some graphical words exist in these stories but they have only been used to save the Sikhs from such misconduct. Sikhs do not perform Akhand Path of these stories and neither are they read during the daily nitnem. The Bani 'Kabio Bach Benti Chaupae' which appears at the end of this Granth is however read by Sikhs for Amrit Sanchars and also during the daily nitnem. No one has ever raised questions about its authenticity. These are not merely 'stories or tails'; these are banis which entail Gurmat principals but don't need to be dissertated. There have been many who have also raised doubts on other parts of this Granth. Some state that the Dasam Granth Sahib was penned by the Darbari poets but reality is totally opposite to this. By becoming victims of such doubts, people became unsuccessful in understanding the main purpose of Guru Sahib and the 'self-acclaimed' scholars kept on uttering nonsense. Those who had not even read Dasam Granth Sahib started presenting baseless arguments against it. To realize the authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib, all readers must bring their attention to the following straight-forward points:

The Hazoori Sikhs of Guru Gobind Singh Ji who were accustomed with all aspects of his life compiled the 'Granth of the Tenth Guru' after his physical departure from this world. The letter of Bhai Mani Singh Ji also supports this fact.

All the copies (around a dozen) of Dasam Granth Sahib that were compiled during the eighteenth century contain all the above mentioned banis. There is no difference in their content.

The internal content of this Granth also proves that its author is Guru Gobind Singh Ji. In his own composition, Guru Sahib states:

ਅਬ ਮੈਂ ਆਪਨੀ ਕਥਾ ਬਖਾਨੋ। ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਜਿਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਆਨੋ। (ਬਿਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਟਕ)

Now I relate my own story of how God sent me in the world while I was absorbed in meditation.

and

ਸੇਵਕ ਸਿੱਖ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਤਾਰੀਅਹਿ। ਚੁਨਿ ਚੁਨਿ ਸ਼ਤ੍ਰ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਮਾਰੀਅਹਿ। (ਚੌਪਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ)

Cross over the world-ocean these devotees and Sikhs that belong to You. Pick up my foes and destroy them.

The language used in the Dasam Granth Sahib also explains that its author is none other than the Mahaakavi Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Guru Sahib used words such as Bhagauti, Kharag, Khag, Tegh, As, Asthuj, Khargait, Kirpan, Kaal, Mahakaal, Sarbkaal, Sarbloh, Mahaloh, etc. to refer to Akal Purakh. None of these words have been used by any of the Darbari poets. These and other similar ones appear throughout the writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

It was customary for the Darbari Kavis to start their writings by praising Guru Gobind Singh Ji but at no instance a manglacharan exists in Dasam Granth Sahib that praises a certain individual, rather Guru Gobind Singh Ji has addressed the might of Almighty God in all of his writings.

There are some Chands that appear concurrently in the Bachitar Natak and the Charitro Pakhyan. These include: "ਮੇਰੁ ਕੀਯੋ ਤਿਣ ਤੇ and ਯਾ ਕਾਗਦ ਦੀਪ ਸਬੈ ਕਰਕੈ" etc.

It was prevalent amongst the previous generation of Sikhs to revere all contents of Dasam Granth Sahib as writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This is the reason the following Panthic instruction was passed:

ਦੁਹੂੰ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਮੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋਈ। ਚੁਨ ਚੁਨ ਕੰਠ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਸੋਈ'। (ਰਹਿਤਨਾਮਾ, ਭਾਈ ਦੇਸਾ ਸਿੰਘ)

Everyday, pick and memorize the banis of the two Granths. (Rehitnama, Bhai Desa Singh)

It was according to this notion that different Chands of Dasam Granth Sahib have been popularized over time by Guru Ji's Sikhs. But the status of being the Guru rested solely with Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Just like in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, names such as Madho, Kamlapat, Gopal (Vishnu), Keshav, Syaam (Krishna), Raam, Raghunaath (Ramchandar), etc. are used; Guru Gobind Singh Ji used old and prevalent names to bring all castes and creeds together. To censure something without reading, listening or understanding is very foolish. By walking on this path, many have suffered, and at the end they have had to apologize.

The simple answer to those who question the necessity of writing about Avtars is that the Avtar Katha was written solely to awaken the spirit of the Hindus. If their idols such as Raam, Krishna, Bheem and Arjun could dare to destroy dreadful demons, they too can take part in Dharam Yudhs. And as stated earlier, the only reason behind writing stories of adulterous misconduct was to raise awareness within the newly initiated Sikhs. Furthermore, one needs to realize that if authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib was indeed questionable; its contents would have never been included in nitnem that is prescribed by the sixty year old 'Sikh Rehit Maryada'.

Another doubt that is raised upon the authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib includes the question whether Guru Gobind Singh Ji really had the time to pen down such a great amount of bani. According to historical facts that exist, Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote this Granth between 1675 and 1700, which is a period of twenty five years. It was after this time that attention of Guru Sahib remained focused towards wars and battles. Period of twenty five years is enough to work on a complication as lengthy as the Dasam Granth Sahib. Guru Sahib was the Guru; even his Sikhs such as Bhai Santokh Singh, Giani Gian Singh, and Bhai Veer Singh penned thousands of pages in a period of few years.

We also need to consider that the Avtar Katha in Dasam Granth Sahib provides priceless information on many of the ancient stories that have been included in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Dasam Granth Sahib has long been used significantly by the learnt scholars and historians. The information provided in this Granth is important to understand several aspects of Guru Granth Sahib Ji's bani. Without the guidance of this Granth, Sikhs would be misguided with the misinformation that exists about various avtars and historical epics and tails.

(Translated from ‘ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੀ ਪਰਮਾਣਿਕਤਾ’ Courtesy www.panthic.org)

Jesus Christ, how can you trust such a trashy site like Panthic.org. The News of The World of the Sikh world. They spew so much bile and garbage there, it is difficult to separate truth from fact.

5 Singhs have agreed - Neo i think u should ban the Kala Afghanas.

I disagree.

I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it!

Laalsingh? Apnee akll daa devaalaa keo kad-daa?

That quote says Mayraa Maataa. Not mayree maataa.

Mayraa is masculine unless you are a bhaiyaa.

Bhaiyas speak the opposite.

They will say, "Sardar Jee! Kee Kardee Haigee?"

and say, "Bibi Ji! Kee Kardaa Haigaa?'

However, since it is mayraa maataa it is masculine though.

Good point.

You can only curse because you are trying not to be truthful. Can you tell us why you are imposing censorship there. You very regularly delete references form AKJ and Damdami taksal sources. You also write refrences from AKJ and DDT sites wil not be allowed.

Your mentors Giani ji and waheguruseekr are staunch followers of kala afghana. You are there to back them up.

I don't recall any curses.

Because most of those sources such as Panthic weekly are nothing more than a barage of slanderous insults we don't allow that. We don't want trash like that on our site thanks.

Keep up with the Nindya, thats all you are good for. Face Gyani ji rather than back biting, and lets see what happens.

MOD NOTE: Message to both veer ji's, from now on, please take this back and forth about Sikhphilosophy over PM, as it is off topic.

What i wrote is correct. you have so called mentors who distort sikh philosophy in their own atheist way. then the moderators back them up. That is not the forum to have -a healthy debate.

Rubbish, you probably couldn't debate there, that's why you are bitter. Looking at your style of "debate" , with finger waving, accusations and plain rudeness, I am not surprised. Gyani ji and Aman ji would have ran circles round such behaviour.

They have some (mod edit) people on sikh philosophy net who are die hard chelas of kaal afghana. Those people will never let you have a good debate.

Stop talking nonsense.

In that case, I understand why you feel the way you do - I haven't come across a single translation that is true to the original, most are shockingly bad. There are people who have studied all the languages used and have been taught the same meanings that have been passed down since the time of Bhai Mani Singh Ji and Baba Deep Singh Ji - that is what our traditional Taksals do, and why we need them.

You do not know me that well.

My methods of study are thorough. I leave nothing to chance. The translations I use are impeccable.

We don't need Taksal's thank you very much. Less the better I say.

Even from translations though, you can't claim that Jaap Sahib, Akaal Ustat are not Guru ji's uchaaran?.

They possibly are, but you need to view the originals and verify signs and handwriting. Either way it does not matter, like I said the Dasam Granth is a remarkable collection.

You have a point re: RSS funding singhsabhacanada, however looking at the bigger picture - Sri Dasam Granth uses very strong words to reject the foundation of their beliefs, no other dharmic granth does this with such unambiguity. I'm sure they are also happy at how the Kala Afgahnists and co have removed any essence of spirituality and denounced the need for 'Naam Japna' from their version of Sikhi. Without Simran, the inner thirst isn't quenched, and people look elsewhere - a good result as far as our enemies are concerned.

You of all people should know the epic debate I had with those guys that Guruji was praising various Gods and Demi-Gods on ww.sikh-history.com and no reply came back when I stated that in Akaal Ustat Guruji claimed they became victims of Kaal i.e. time, in other words died. So my point is people actually use Dasam Granth to say Sikhi is part of Hinduism. "Deh Shiva" etc is a classic.

The Afghanists seem to be saying that is Dasam Granth is saying Sikhi is pro-Hindu, then we want no part of Dasam Granth. Is that correct?

Which ones ji?

Lets start a topic on this. I may do on SPN...you are welcome to join us.

A complete ridiculous theory put forward by randip. There is no section of dasam granth where there is veneration of any hindu gods and Goddesses. We want a refrence.

You have a serious reading problem:

Looks guys, do your own analysis of Dasam Granth. It becomes quite apparent that there are some sections that are penned by the 10th Master, but their are other sections that are not.

There are metaphors in there, and there is no evidence that Guruji believed in multiple armed Goddesses/Gods either.

If you try and mischief make one more time I will report you.

MODS TAKE NOTE

Read and understood Sri Dasam Granth in its original language, or read translations? Which parts do you feel aren't Guru Sahib's writings? Did you have as Ustaad?

I have read an English version, written alongside with Braj (which I find a little difficult). Some parts are very hard to follow.

I feel that Zafarnama is written by Guruji, and Chandi di Vaar possibly. Other section possibly by court poets. I haven't got my copy at hand, so lets start another topic for this for in depth analysis.

The strongest rejection of Hinduism (and Islam, for that matter), in straight forward language, is in Sri Dasam Granth. While brave deeds and good acts done by the avtars, devte etc are rightfully acknowledged, their worship is totally rejected.

I would go further....these avtars, devta's etc all become victims of "Kaal"...i.e. time, and therefore they are not immortal. Therefore they are not acknowledges as such, but this is an epic discussion in itself.

It makes sense that the RSS and other right wing Hindu groups would secretly support "Singh Sabha Canada" and Kala Afghana, but that is pointless to debate without solid proof.

No it wouldn't, only if the Afghanists said you should worship these deities, but they reject this don't they.

"Actually it is a good comparison, because he too was labelled a thug, and disowned by many Sikhs at the time. He made changes such as "Fateh Darshan".....yet rather than excommunicate him people sought compromise."

Veer Ji,

The key difference as to why Singhs sought compromise with Bandai Khalsa was because of the blackhole they created in the Mughals empire, as well as the immense shaheediyan they gave.

What has Afghana done for the Panth?

Look, I have not read what Afghana has written. Every forum I ask what has he actually written I come across statements like I have here,but not what he actually did.

Someone showed me a conviction for sexual assault, and I asked why he wasn't locked up and just fined....I got a load of abuse. It seemed contrived.

The point I am making is Bandha was controversial, Afghana is controversial, so why don't people talk to each other rather than all this BS excommunication business and character assassination.

As for what Afghana's done....like I said I really don't know.

Bhai Ji! Let me understand your chariter. Are you trying to label me as kala afgana gang? I don't belong to kala afgana gang. Kala Afgana doesn't know how to respect others. He talks in ego and uses foul language at times. I don't know how I fit into kala afgana gang then. I didn't quote kala afgana, I didn't tell you to read kala afgana, I didn't link you to a kala afgana article, why are you forcefully labelling me as a kala afgana agent? Please clarify. I am just asking if Kahan Singh Nabha was a naastic because I don't know who fits the bill for naastic and who doesn't.

Naastic Aastic Chakar is baad bebaad.

Unfortunately it seems to be symptomatic of some people who have come over from sikhsangat to here. They do not debate the issue but instead point fingers at the person writing.

Sikhism does lays a great emphasis on moral conduct. That is why a thief like kala afghana is condemned.

But someone argues that Afghana described Sikhi as just a set of moral conduct and that was wrong. Either Afgana is right on this point or he is wrong. You seem to be saying you agree with Afghana that Sikhi is a set of moral principles.

Do not compare Baba Banda singh with a rapist and thug kala afghana.

Actually it is a good comparison, because he too was labelled a thug, and disowned by many Sikhs at the time. He made changes such as "Fateh Darshan".....yet rather than excommunicate him people sought compromise.

These are the organizations who have sacrificed immensely for sikh panth whenever there was a need for it. Can you expect a traitor like kala afghana or darshan Ragi to sacrifice for sikhi. these are paid agents of Brahmins.

Where is your proof they are paid agents of Brahmins?

What great sacrifices have the groups I listed made for Sikhi? Please list them?

Sikh religion is regulated by Akal takhat. Please ask them this question. Anything that ridicules our Gurus philosophy is condemnable.

I cannot see anything here that ridicules the Guru's philosophy. Please cite examples.

heretics are heretics. they flout the rehat maryada.

So AKJ must be heretics , they have tried to redefine the word, changed the 5k's and numerous other quirks.

Of course you are. What methodolgy you used to arrive at your decision about Dasam granth. Line out here. Have you read dasam Granth?

Learn to debate like a human being. This is not about me.

For your information I have read Dasam Granth.

No one has said like that.

Somebody in another debate said Afghana's followers should be killed. Try and follow the debate.

Guys, all I can read from you replies is, YOu said that, You said that. Why don't you analyse the points and answer those. If there are no points and they are verbal assaults, ignore them.

Thank you Randip Singh ji. It is exactly what I have been trying to tell this forum that Guru ji taught us to use the Sword of Spiritual Wisdom from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. But these fellows only believe in filthy, foul and threatening language. Prime example, look at the replying post by cul right here. They just can not come up with any rational & logical points from Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to prove or disapprove any concepts. That’s because majority of these have not read more than 10 pages of Gurbani and that probably too without any analysis at all. All they do is listen to anything somebody wearing a chola and round dastar will say. Somehow that attire is supposed to be some sort of a STAMP to prove that you are a Sikh, yet not even once in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji any of this dress code specified. When we read Gurbani with one focus, that being to gain Guru’s Gyan, then we start to learn that majority of the time Gurbani addresses our mind and not body. Hence, there is need to change our thoughts and eventually our actions. I am sure if everybody could understand this concept and implement in our lives, we will have so much respect for our Guru ji and Sikhs WORLDWIDE !

Just to let you know, and I am sure you have noticed it too, that my responses are being censored by the administration now. I posted answers to all questions posted by the Sheedyan nearly 10 hours ago and those are yet to be posted and I suspect that parts they feel that these fellows are either incapable or unable to answer will be deleted. Even though all of my answers are backed by actual shabads from Gurbani along with page numbers, I doubt it will be posted uncut.

Admin Note: Please check your pm- Guru Da Sikh

All due respect I don't think Cul said anything bad to you.

I suggest maybe a time out and a cool head. Take each point of your critics and address in a cool manner with cited references. This will separate the Nindaks from genuine debaters.

Guru Da Sikh

I reiterate, dogma is anathema to rationality.

hehe so true!

Guru Da Sikh

I reiterate, dogma is anathema to rationality.

hehe so true!

Looks guys, do your own analysis of Dasam Granth. It becomes quite apparent that there are some sections that are penned by the 10th Master, but their are other sections that are not.

There are metaphors in there, and there is no evidence that Guruji believed in multiple armed Goddesses/Gods either.

View Propaganda Here

In the last few hours a blitz of scathingly insensitive videos have been released by this group of sinners effectively they are saying that taksaal promotes homosexuality and vulgar sexuality because it supports Sri Dasam Guru Darbar ji.

In the videos mahapappis can be seen using highlighters on the gutkha sahibs--dispicable!

Who is this group? They seem to be connected to Kala Afgana and Ragi Darshan,

Does this group own any gurdwaras?

What can be done to stop them?

valli singh.

I seriously suggest you spend time working on your own body to get physically fit , your own intellectual capacity by reading , and spirituality through Bani.

Because if you did this, you would realise when you are pointing the finger at someone else, there are THREE pointing back at you!

A general question, and something I picked up from the debate with Guru Da Sikh.

As a neutral and outsider, I observed Guru Da Sikh trying to debate in a rational manner, where everyone else just behaved like the "m o r o n i c" fools at sikhsangat and proceeded to attack the person rather than debate.

What is it with the mentality of some people here?

Some of the points on both sides made sense in between the diatribe. As a neutral, I have become even more intrigued to find out what Kala Afghana has written. So the Yaah booh crowd have actually done the complete opposite of what they wanted.

Some of the points made are no different to what I have read or believe.

1) What is wrong with a religion that concentrates on moral conduct rather than miracles and magic? I believe their were no miracles in Sikhi, am I heretic?

2) What if Afghana disagrees with some things? Bandha Bahdhur changed the Sikh salutation to "Fateh Darshan". Should we excommunicate him?

3) Groups like AKJ, GNNSJ, DDT, Raroanwalay changes definitions and practices in Sikhi as they see fit, shouldn't they be excommunicated? I really see no difference between Afghana people from tehse other groups.

4) Is Sikhi that intolerant that we cannot embrace diversity?

5) Are we in the process of creating an elite-Brahman type group in Sikhi that lays down the law, and everyone else is declared a heretic?

6) I don't believe all of Dasam Granth was penned by the 10th Master, but I consider it a valuable Sikh manuscript. Am I heretic too?

7) When people call for Afghanist's to be killed, what do outsiders think of us?