randip singh

In that case it's obviously a different Bhai Randhir Singh from both the AKJ one and the translator of Dasam Granth.

Why obviously? I know Bhai Randhir Singh died in 1961 and Dr Ganda Singh in 1985 (b 1900)?, but this book was researched many many years before and published a few times no doubt.

Ah, the person with the longest thread in history, lol!

Welcome brother.

Regarding your impression of SA, I would say quite the opposite is true. This forum has members from all Samryadas, Jathaas, Sects what have you - and the diversity is welcome and celebrated (sometimes)!

I would say the forum tends to have more traditional slant in terms of Sikh education, both historic and spiritual.

Are the Mods members of Jatha's etc though? If they are then I won't stay here, because it led to bad feeling on sikhsangat.

What do you mean by traditional?

Which Bhai Randhir Singh are you referring to? There are two, one is the AKJ one who I doubt produced or referred to any puraatan hukamnama and the other Randhir Singh was the one who wrote the translation of Dasam Granth. I don't think he produced any such Hukamnama either. And what is the name of the book which supposedly proves 50% of the hukamnamas fake? who is the author? Ganda Singh's book has been given recognition SGPC as being Authentic hukamnamas.

Hukamnama of Guru Tegh Bahadhur - A Historical Study Sabinderjit Singh Sagar - ISBN 81-7770-047-2 <<<has many fake Hukamnama's. On Dr Ganda Singh's approach Sabinderjit Singh is highly critical. I recommend getting this book.

The AKJ one I think. I maybe mistaken (it says on page 2 Bhai Randhir Singh was dispatched to collect them, that is the same right?) was sent to collect Hukamnama's for Dr Gandha's Singh book. Hukamname (ed Dr Ganda Singh) Punjab University Patiala 1969

Randip Singh Ji, even though the Shabad did not mention Abraham or hint towards anyone known as Abraham but you or the person who translated the Shabad specifically mentioned Abraham and his sacrifice, which is why Muslims celebrate Bakra Eid. So surely if the angle you are putting that Shabad into is about Abraham's story then logically the Shabad would specifically mention a Bakra and not a chicken.

Wrong on all accounts:

1) I did not write the essay (although I edited it)

2) The Abrahamic ritual is generic, it is only you putting it into the context of Bakra Eid.

3) The Abrahamic ritual explains what sacrifice in the name of God is about.

4) Whether you have a Bakra, Chicken, or elephant is irrelevant, what is relevant is the sacrifice in the name of God.

As for why Muslims sacrifice animals using their specific method has alot to do with how pre Islamic Pagan Arabs also performed the same sacrifice of a Bakra to their Pagan Gods in Mecca. Mohammad simply continued this Pagan Arab tradition. So far, I've read teekas done by Giani Harbanse Singh, Prof Sahib Singh, Faridkoti Teeta and none of them mention Abraham or anything remotely of what you have translated in that article mentioning Abraham.

You maybe right, but it makes no difference.

Abraham is pre-Islamic and is seen in the Koran as one of the teachers/prophets like Jesus.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Con.../sacrifice.html

Either way if you are right it still is relevant, because Muhammed is carrying on the sacrifice tradition. The key word is sacrifice.

See here according to Dr HS Singha:

We must give the rationale behind prescribing jhatka meat as the approved food for the Sikhs. According to the ancient Aryan Hindu tradition, only such meat as is obtained from an animal which is killed with one stroke of the weapon causing instantaneous death is fit for human consumption. However, with the coming of Islam into India and the Muslim political hegemony, it became a state policy not to permit slaughter of animals for food, in any other manner, except as laid down in the Quran - the kosher meat prepared by slowly severing the main blood artery of the throat of the animal while reciting verses from the Quran. It is done to make slaughter a sacrifice to God and to expiate the sins of the slaughter. Guru Gobind Singh took a rather serious view of this aspect of the whole matter. He, therefore, while permitting flesh to be taken as food repudiated the whole theory of this expiatory sacrifice and the right of ruling Muslims to impose iton the non-Muslims. Accordingly, he made jhatka meat obligatory for those Sikhs who may be interested in taking meat as a part of their food.

Sikhism, A Complete Introduction, Dr. H.S.Singha & Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press

Thanks for your searching questions.

Who said it was Bhai Randhir Singh who made the hukamnama on meat?

You are missing the point. I don't care whether he wrote it or not but this Hukamnama was never verified and was very controversial and has caused massive splits amongst Sikhs. If the handwriting had been verified before this false Hukamnama would never have come forward and the controversy never started.

C'mon Maha Singh, is Niddar Singh the ONLY PERSON in the whole wide world to have this secret knowledge as he claims? No one else has this secret knowledge? No Sikh, not even other Nihangs? Niddar Singh is the only one?

Why the animosity for Niddar Singh? He seems far beeter read and intellectual than most of the dead beats I see around Smethwick and Soho Road.

i have been told by a muslim that bakra is the first choice, but if one couldnt afford a bakra then a chicken or cheaper animal would suffice.

Spot on!

But the person who translated that shabad and mentioned Abraham especially since there was no mention of Abraham makes the translation seem agenda based. Okay if we take your argument that we should see it in context of Qurbani that Muslims perform during Bakra Eid to comemorate the sacrifice of Abraham even then it seems to be the wrong context to put that Shabad into. For starters, if the Shabad were talking about the Qurbani that is performed during Bakra Eid then surely it would mention the Qurbani of a Bakra instead of Chicken which is not the traditional animal to be sacrificed during Bakra Eid. We need to make sure that we do not translate Gurbani in accordance to our personal agenda and give it an angle to prove a point.

Why Agenda based?

One author was a vegetarian and the other a meat eater, so why agenda based?

The mention of Abraham is just explaining what Bismil and Halal is about. Where is the problem?

Who is talking about Bakra eid when any animal can be sacrificed according to affordability?

Where is the connection with Bakra's? Why have you assumed Qurbani/Halal/Bismil is only done at Bakra Eid?

I asked a few people what this shabad is actually saying, they seemed pretty unsure

Can some shed some light to this shabad please, it would be helpful

peace

A.D

RAAMKALEE, FIFTH MEHL: The fire runs away from the fuel. The water runs away from the dust in all directions. The feet are above, and the sky is beneath. The ocean appears in the cup. || 1 || Such is our all-powerful dear Lord. His devotees do not forget Him, even for an instant. Twenty-four hours a day, O mind, meditate on Him. || 1 || Pause || First comes the butter, and then the milk. The dirt cleans the soap. The fearless are afraid of fear. The living are killed by the dead. || 2 || The visible body is hidden, and the etheric body is seen. The Lord of the world does all these things. The one who is cheated, is not cheated by the cheat. With no merchandise, the trader trades again and again. || 3 || So join the Society of the Saints, and chant the Lord's Name. So say the Simritees, Shaastras, Vedas and Puraanas. Rare are those who contemplate and meditate on God. O Nanak, they attain the supreme status. || 4 || 43 || 54 ||

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...id=38605#l38605

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

रामकली महला ५ ॥

Rāmkalī mėhlā 5.

Raamkalee, Fifth Mehl:

ਈਧਨ ਤੇ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ ਭਾਗੈ ॥

ईंधन ते बैसंतरु भागै ॥

Īʼnḏẖan ṯe baisanṯar bẖāgai.

The fire runs away from the fuel.

ਮਾਟੀ ਕਉ ਜਲੁ ਦਹ ਦਿਸ ਤਿਆਗੈ ॥

माटी कउ जलु दह दिस तिआगै ॥

Mātī ka▫o jal ḏah ḏis ṯi▫āgai.

The water runs away from the dust in all directions.

ਊਪਰਿ ਚਰਨ ਤਲੈ ਆਕਾਸੁ ॥

ऊपरि चरन तलै आकासु ॥

Ūpar cẖaran ṯalai ākās.

The feet are above, and the sky is beneath.

ਘਟ ਮਹਿ ਸਿੰਧੁ ਕੀਓ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥੧॥

घट महि सिंधु कीओ परगासु ॥१॥

Gẖat mėh sinḏẖ kī▫o pargās. ||1||

The ocean appears in the cup. ||1||

ਐਸਾ ਸੰਮ੍ਰਥੁ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਆਪਿ ॥

ऐसा सम्रथु हरि जीउ आपि ॥

Aisā samrath har jī▫o āp.

Such is our all-powerful dear Lord.

ਨਿਮਖ ਨ ਬਿਸਰੈ ਜੀਅ ਭਗਤਨ ਕੈ ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਮਨ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਜਾਪਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

निमख न बिसरै जीअ भगतन कै आठ पहर मन ता कउ जापि ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Nimakẖ na bisrai jī▫a bẖagṯan kai āṯẖ pahar man ṯā ka▫o jāp. ||1|| rahā▫o.

His devotees do not forget Him, even for an instant. Twenty-four hours a day, O mind, meditate on Him. ||1||Pause||

ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਮਾਖਨੁ ਪਾਛੈ ਦੂਧੁ ॥

प्रथमे माखनु पाछै दूधु ॥

Parathme mākẖan pācẖẖai ḏūḏẖ.

First comes the butter, and then the milk.

ਮੈਲੂ ਕੀਨੋ ਸਾਬੁਨੁ ਸੂਧੁ ॥

मैलू कीनो साबुनु सूधु ॥

Mailū kīno sābun sūḏẖ.

The dirt cleans the soap.

ਭੈ ਤੇ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਡਰਤਾ ਫਿਰੈ ॥

भै ते निरभउ डरता फिरै ॥

Bẖai ṯe nirbẖa▫o darṯā firai.

The fearless are afraid of fear.

ਹੋਂਦੀ ਕਉ ਅਣਹੋਂਦੀ ਹਿਰੈ ॥੨॥

होंदी कउ अणहोंदी हिरै ॥२॥

Hoʼnḏī ka▫o aṇhoʼnḏī hirai. ||2||

The living are killed by the dead. ||2||

ਦੇਹੀ ਗੁਪਤ ਬਿਦੇਹੀ ਦੀਸੈ ॥

देही गुपत बिदेही दीसै ॥

Ḏehī gupaṯ biḏehī ḏīsai.

The visible body is hidden, and the etheric body is seen.

ਸਗਲੇ ਸਾਜਿ ਕਰਤ ਜਗਦੀਸੈ ॥

सगले साजि करत जगदीसै ॥

Sagle sāj karaṯ jagḏīsai.

The Lord of the world does all these things.

ਠਗਣਹਾਰ ਅਣਠਗਦਾ ਠਾਗੈ ॥

ठगणहार अणठगदा ठागै ॥

Ŧẖagaṇhār aṇ▫ṯẖagḏā ṯẖāgai.

The one who is cheated, is not cheated by the cheat.

ਬਿਨੁ ਵਖਰ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਉਠਿ ਲਾਗੈ ॥੩॥

बिनु वखर फिरि फिरि उठि लागै ॥३॥

Bin vakẖar fir fir uṯẖ lāgai. ||3||

With no merchandise, the trader trades again and again. ||3||

ਸੰਤ ਸਭਾ ਮਿਲਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਬਖਿਆਣ ॥

संत सभा मिलि करहु बखिआण ॥

Sanṯ sabẖā mil karahu bakẖi▫āṇ.

So join the Society of the Saints, and chant the Lord's Name.

ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ॥

सिम्रिति सासत बेद पुराण ॥

Simriṯ sāsaṯ beḏ purāṇ.

So say the Simritees, Shaastras, Vedas and Puraanas.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ਕੋਇ ॥

ब्रहम बीचारु बीचारे कोइ ॥

Barahm bīcẖār bīcẖāre ko▫e.

Rare are those who contemplate and meditate on God.

ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥੪॥੪੩॥੫੪॥

नानक ता की परम गति होइ ॥४॥४३॥५४॥

Nānak ṯā kī param gaṯ ho▫e. ||4||43||54||

O Nanak, they attain the supreme status. ||4||43||54||

Have you read the Tukh's before and after this?

double post

Randip Singh ji,

I am not a sheep that follows others with a blind fold. You claim yourself to be a historian but you know not anything about History.

No you are not a sheep but you certainly are blind. Blinded by your ego, you arrogance.

Please do not lecture me on history, I have exposed your knowledge on sikh history a million times. You cannot even acknowledge the Guru's had Muslim followers. If you cannot acknowledge this you have no hope.

As I responded to your private message, you have spewed dirty on our Gurus, be it intentional or unintentional, but I will not stand for this insolence.

Just who the hell do you think you are?

You claim to have personal meetings with the Guru's and think you are a Guru yourself?

On the contrary, it was the team at SPN who exposed you. For your information, Amanji who runs the site is a strict Vegetarian, so you cannot claim that was the reason he booted you out.

I do and shall refute all your claims in your essay. I have already shown in my post above what Guru Nanak Dev ji was telling the Pandits in Kurukshetar. The line of thought and your misrepresentations stands out wide. There is a big difference in what Guru ji said and others understood. Those pandits now exists in the guise of a Sikh. When you have calmed down a little, read my post again and again and you too may come to understand Gurus message.

You are in no position to refute anything. You promised to refute this essay 3 years ago. You didn't. You failed. You were exposed as a Vaishnavite. Accept it, move on!

No doubt you have over 8000 members but the first 8000 are all silent watching the stupidity of the number over. As VSGrewal pointed out you do not have more than 15 members participating so what is the joy in numbers. Most of the regular contributors are your moderators who are equally uninformed. You 8000 or so members are mere spectators and not contributors. "Oochi Dukaan Pheeka Pakwaan"

Anyone can call himself a Sikh with a minuscule understanding of Gurus Updesh. This will not get anyone anywhere.

We have all read your essay, please do not keep posting extracts from it again and again. Now wait for my response. You are a small fish that is taking credit of someone else's work but I will be responding to the main culprits head on.

Try learning some other words like Daya, Santokh, Sabbar.(Dhaul Dharam Daya ka poot - One that has no Daya for other living beings is adharmic - his life is no better than an animal who does not have that Sense) Sabhna jiyaan ka ik data so main visar na jayee - All creatures belong to the same lord, let me not forget that - Japji sahib. Reading Bani, understanding and practicing are all related but follow in a sequence. Read Bani so that you can listen with your ears, Understand what you have listened and put it in practice. When you have done that, have some fear and love for the lord. It takes time but one day you will get there.

ekmusafir_ajnabi

VS Grewal Ji disgrees with you on this issue TOO!

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-s....html#post97926

MEAT IN SIKHISM

ABSTRACT

Whether to consume any kind of meat should be a matter of personal preference on the basis of taste etc. It is foolhardy to bring religion into this issue. Guru Nanak has explained it very well: Only God knows what is good and what is bad. Meat has been eaten in all the four ages and has been referred in all religious books. Guru Angad in Raag Ramkali ponders on the life in ocean;

ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਆਹਾਰੁ ਜੀਅ ਖਾਣਾ ਏਹੁ ਕਰੇਇ ॥

Jī▫ā kā āhār jī▫a kẖāṇā ehu kare▫i.

Animals eat other animals; this is what the Akal Purkh has given them as food. -----Guru Angad, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 955-11

-- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Water is the source of every thing in creation whether vegetation or meat. It quenches thirst and cleanses the body but not consciousness says Guru Nanak in Raag Sarang;

ਪਾਣੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਨ ਧੋਪਈ ਮੁਖਿ ਪੀਤੈ ਤਿਖ ਜਾਇ ॥ਪਾਣੀ ਪਿਤਾ ਜਗਤ ਕਾ ਫਿਰਿ ਪਾਣੀ ਸਭੁ ਖਾਇ ॥

paanee chit na Dhop-ee mukh peetai tikh jaa-ay, Paanee Pitaa Jagat Kaa Fir Paanee Sabh Khaa-ay.

The consciousness is not washed with water. You drink it to quench your thirst. Water is the father of the world. In the end water destroys it all.-----Guru Nanak Dev, Raag Sarang, AGGS, Page, 1240-9

The goodness of food or clothes depends on the purity of heart, as explained by Guru Nanak in Raag Majh and Siri Raag;

ਕਿਆ ਖਾਧੈ ਕਿਆ ਪੈਧੈ ਹੋਇ ॥ਜਾ ਮਨਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥ਕਿਆ ਮੇਵਾ ਕਿਆ ਘਿਉ ਗੁੜੁ ਮਿਠਾ ਕਿਆ ਮੈਦਾ ਕਿਆ ਮਾਸੁ ॥

Ki-aa KhaaDhai Ki-aa PaiDhai Ho-ay, Jaa Man Naahee Sachaa So-ay,Kiaa Mayvaa Kiaa Gheo Gurh Mithaa Kiaa Maidaa Kiaa Maas.

What good is consuming delicacies and wearing fine clothes, if the True Akal Purkh does not abide within the mind? What good are fruits, butter, sugar, sweets, flour and meat? -----Guru Nanak, Vaar Raag Majh, AGGS, Page, 142-12

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਹਲਾਲ ਦੁਇ ਤੀਜਾ ਖੈਰ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥

Pahilā sacẖ halāl ḏu¬ė ṯījā kẖair kẖuḏā¬ė.

Let the first be truthfulness, the second honest living, and the third charity in the Name of God. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Majh, AGGS, Page, 141- 4

Sabd Guru categorically forbids mind altering substances that have immoral consequences as indicated by Guru Nanak in Siri Raag;

ਬਾਬਾ ਹੋਰੁ ਖਾਣਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਖਾਧੈ ਤਨੁ ਪੀੜੀਐ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥

Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828 (Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh)

Baabaa Hor Khaanaa Khusee Khu-aar, Jit Khadhai Tan Peerhai Man Meh Chaleh Vikaar.

O Baba, the pleasures of other foods are false. Eating them, the body is ruined, and wickedness and corruption enter into the mind.-----Guru Nanak, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 16-14

Sikh thought is more concerned with the ethical side of the life rather than physical or material things or Maya. Food of any type makes little difference. What is important is the spiritual part of remembering God, since it enhances spiritual growth. Those not remembering God are heading toward delusion, as described by Guru Nanak in Raag Majh:

ਇਕਿ ਮਾਸਹਾਰੀ ਇਕਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਣੁ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ਇਕਨਾ ਛਤੀਹ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ਇਕਿ ਮਿਟੀਆ ਮਹਿ ਮਿਟੀਆ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਮੁਠੇ ਜਾਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਇ ॥ Ik Masaharee Ik TriN Khaaeh, Ikna Chateeh Amnrit Paaeh, Ik MiTee-aa Meh MiTee-aa Khaaeh, Nanak Muthay Jaahi Naahee Man So-ay.

Some eat meat, while others eat grass. Some have all the thirty-six varieties of delicacies, while others live in the dirt and eat mud. O Nanak, those who do not enshrine the Akal Purkh within their minds is deluded. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Majh, AGGS, Page, 144

Here is another Sloke of Mardana in Raag Bihaagrha stressing the spiritual side of life:

ਗੁਣ ਮੰਡੇ ਕਰਿ ਸੀਲੁ ਘਿਉ ਸਰਮੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਆਹਾਰੁ ॥ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੁੜੁ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਮੰਡੇ ਭਉ ਮਾਸੁ ਆਹਾਰੁ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹੁ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਸਚੁ ਹੈ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥

GouN ManDay Kar Seel Gheo Saram Maas Aahaar, Giaan Gourh Salaah ManDay Bhou Maas Aahaar, Nanak Ih Bhojan Sach Hai Sach Naam AaDhaar.

Make virtue your bread, good conduct the ghee, and modesty the meat to eat. So make spiritual wisdom your molasses, the Praise of God your bread, and the Fear of God the meat you eat. O Nanak, this is the true food; let the True Name be your only Support. -----Mardana, Raag Bihaagrha, AGGS, Page, 553-6

Kabir originally was idolater and follower of Ramanand and later became monotheistic and believed in contemplation of Naam. He being under the influence of Vedanta states about 3 things to refrain from including fish;

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥

Kabir Bhaang Maachulee Sura Paan Jo Jo Praanee Khaaneh, Teerath Barat Naym Keeay Tay Sabhay Rasaatal Jaaneh.

Kabir, the mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, will all go to hell.-----Bhagat Kabir Slokes # 233, AGGS, Page, 1377-2 & 3

There have been references to the Hukamnama of Guru Har Gobind from the book of Hukamnamas by Dr. Ganda Singh to the effect that the Gurus forbid the eating of meat. This Hukamnama have been annulled by the above references and he him self being a good hunter makes the document erroneous.

Guru Nanak’s Raag Malar is devoted to meat eating. He recited it at Kurkchetar at the festival of solar eclipse while cooking the deer meat, to remove doubts and superstitions about its eating;

ਮਾਸਹੁ ਨਿੰਮੇ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਜੰਮੇ ਹਮ ਮਾਸੈ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ॥ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕਛੁ ਸੂਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਤੁਰੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਪਾਂਡੇ ॥

Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828 (Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh)

Maasahu Nimmay Maasahu Janmay Ham Maasai Kay Bhaanday, Gi-aan Dhi-aan Kachh Soojhai Naahee Chatur Kahaavai PaaNday.

In the flesh we are conceived and in the flesh we are born -- we are vessels of the flesh. You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.

ਮਾਸੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਤੇਬਂ*ੀ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਿ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਮਾਣਾ ॥ ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੂ ਜਾਣੈ ਹੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਥਹੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਉਪੰਨਾ ॥ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਕਮਾਦੁ ਕਪਾਹਾਂ ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਗੰਨਾ ॥ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤੁ ਨਿਪੰਨੇ ਮਛੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਨ ਖਾਂਹੀ ॥ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਪੁਰਖੈ ਜਾਂ ਨਿਸਿ ਮੇਲਾ ਓਥੈ ਮੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਹੀ ॥

Maas PuraaNee Maas Kataybeen Chaoh Jug Maas KamaaNaa, PaanDay Too JaaNai Hee Naahee Kithoh Maas Upunnaa, To-i-ahu Ann Kamaad KapaahaaN To-i-ahu Taribhavan Gannaa, Maat Pitaa Kee Rakat Nipannay Machhee Maas Na KhaaNhee, Istaree Purkhai JaaN Nis Maylaa Othai ManDh Kamaahee.

Meat is allowed in the Puraanas and in other Holy books. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used. O Pundit, you do not know where meat originated. Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water. They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers who do not eat fish or meat. But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Malaar, AGGS, Page, 1290

The complete Sabd translated;

First, the mortal is conceived in the flesh, and then he dwells in the flesh. When he comes alive, his mouth takes flesh; his bones, skin and body are flesh. He comes out of the womb of flesh, and takes a mouthful of flesh at the breast. His mouth is flesh, his tongue is flesh; his breath is in the flesh. He grows up and is married, and brings his wife of flesh into his home. Flesh is produced from flesh; all relatives are made of flesh. When the mortal meets the True Guru, and realizes the Akal Purkh's Command, then he comes to be reformed. Releasing himself, the mortal does not find release; O, Nanak through empty words, one is ruined.

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom. What is called meat, and what is called a green vegetable? What leads to sin? It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering. Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night. They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom. O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people?

They cannot answer, or even understand what is said. They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts. They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat. But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh. In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh. You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar. O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.

All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh. They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind. In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh. You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar. Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in other religious scriptures and the Quran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used. It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.

Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat. If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them. The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven -- look at this injustice. You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pundit, you are very wise indeed. O Pundit, you do not know where meat originated. Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water. Water says, "I am good in many ways." But water takes many forms. Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks.

Conclusion:

Every material thing develops from water whether meat or vegetable. It is the remembering of God which is important rather than debating unnecessarily the merits of vegetables or of meat. Personal considerations must determine what is good or bad for a person. In AGGS there is no prohibition about eating or cooking meat. Guru Nanak cooked deer meat at the festival of the solar eclipse at Kurchetar to remove doubt and superstition. According to Vedanta philosophy called ahimsa, it is advised to refrain from injuring - physically, mentally or emotionally - anyone or any living creature, which has creped in to Sikh Faith. Guru Arjan in Raag Maru ponders;

ਹਕੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਬਖੋਰਹੁ ਖਾਣਾ ॥

Hak halāl bakẖorahu kẖāṇā.

Let what is earned righteously be your blessed food.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1084-7

I listen but I don't listen to Vaishnavites.

There is no relevance to Abrahamic faiths here. The audience was not exposed to these missionaries yet. This is your personal angle to mis direct the audience.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...id=18290#l18290

Page 397, Line 7

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਹਭਾ ਹੂੰ ਬਾਹਰਾ ॥

बेद कतेब संसार हभा हूं बाहरा ॥

Beḏ kaṯeb sansār habẖā hūʼn bāhrā.

He is beyond the world of the Vedas, the Koran and the Bible.

Walk in the foot steps of the Guru's. Be physically and mentally fit. If they had not had been of a divine persuation, they would have been formiddable scholars.

ਬੇਦ = Vedas, ਕਤੇਬ = Koran

Where does the bible come into all this. These are small examples of your lack of knowledge especially in view of the essay belonging to someone else.

I agree that Gurus were formidable scholars and were divine but you are showing a formidable lack of knowledge on Gurus Message.

ekmusafir_ajnabi

PS I shall not waste any further time to respond to your comments.

What on earth are you talking about? Were their no Muslims there? Was there no Mardana? Do you not know what happened when Guru Nanak died and people squabbled over his body? You lack basics in Sikh History so how can you be taught?

As per usual you have not debunked anything.

You have skirted round the issues. I have carefully evidenced and researched everything. I have added writings of notable scholars, and even people like Gyani Sher Singh (phd) from the SGPC. They ALL debunk your claims. You are in a minority. You are a Vaishnavite. Admit it and move on. What you are advocating is the principles of Ahimsa, which are Vaishnavite and do not sit with Sikhi.

PS I look forward to your rebuttal which I have been waiting for for 3 years now.

Hopefully not a repost!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13264404/Hand-Wr...s-of-Sikh-Gurus

Has this been verified?

I have a book on Hukamnama's at the moment (Guru Tagh Bahadhur), and over 50% of them have been proved to be fake.

The classic dispute over Hukamna's came about when Bhai Randhir produced one allegedly from the 6th Master on the controversial topic of meat, and it was debunked as not being verified. Not even Gandha Singh could verify it, yet some believed it and it caused massive rifts amongst Sikhs. We have to be very careful in our verification of our Guru's handwritting.

http://www.worldsikhnews.com/21%20January%...mp;%20Truth.htm

Sacrifice at Hazur Sahib – Myth & Truth

Nanak Singh Nishter

A veteran Deccani Sikh himself, the author presents the facts of the honour of weapons at Hazur Sahib and calls for caution in its condemnation. He clears the air over the vegetarian-non-vegetarian debate amongst Sikhs and seeks effective steps to rid Sikh society of unethical and unSikh practices wherever they are practiced.

World Sikh News presents these facts, not to foment the debate, but to help build a hypothesis for solution to this never-ending debate for the benefit of a wider cross-section of the Sikh people.

The Internet has provided a forum for free speech which is being abused by all and sundry to project their views with the finality of an intellectual whose research cannot be wrong. All writers, young and old, write in the superlative degree, presenting their views as “the only correct view”, “the best book”, “the worst case” and the like. Human fallibility has become non-existent.

After the Tercentenary celebrations at Hazur Sahib, on the internet and in print magazines, it has become fashionable for Sikh intelligentsia to indulge in a superlative discussion about, "Goat Sacrifice at Hazur Sahib."

I have been following this debate for a long time and I have observed that most of the debate is frivolous and those who do spend time on this subject do so without understanding the details of the phenomenon.

Beyond all reasonable doubt let me authoritatively say and explain how this myth is a half-truth and more injurious than the lie.

As a student of Gurmat, I am fully aware of the facts and practices of the Sikhs particularly of this region, who are called "Deccani Sikhs". Since the last four generations, I have lived in this region and therefore I am also one of them.

What is the act of sacrifice? It is a religious ritual of killing (an animal or person) in order to propitiate a deity. This is strictly forbidden in Sikhism. The lives of the Ten Gurus and the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib have several crystal clear explanations.

The shabads of Guru Granth Sahib are misquoted, misused and misinterpreted to propagate vegetarianism among the Sikhs by some intellectuals and by vested interests, particular those running deras.

It is not fair to presume that Jhatka of goat is a sacrificial act at Hazur Sahib and other Unit Gurdwaras of the Deccani Sikhs. Since thousands of years, it is a custom of warriors of India to put the Tilak of blood to their weaponry on the occasion of Dashara and Holi. In these Gurdwaras, the tilak of blood is put to the weapons, not to Guru Granth Sahib or any other idol or photograph.

Even innocent Sikh preachers toe the line, as either they are ignorant or they too want to appease the vested interests or they think vegetarianism will make them popular.

Sikhs living in and around Hazur Sahib of the erstwhile Hyderabad State are the decedents who took Amrit in presence of Guru Gobind Singh Ji in the year 1708. Around 1830, the Sikh Army of Maharaja Ranjit Singh came to help the Nizam, who was the ruler of Hyderabad. This army was retained here as a Sikh Peace keeping Force, which had 14 Risalas (units) at all district headquarters with its Unit Gurdwaras. They held the then prevailing practices and rituals of the Sikhs of that period as a disciplined Armed Force.

It is not fair to presume that Jhatka of goat is a sacrificial act at Hazur Sahib and other Unit Gurdwaras of the Deccani Sikhs. Since thousands of years, it is a custom of warriors of India to put the Tilak of blood to their weaponry on the occasion of Dashara and Holi. In these Gurdwaras, the tilak of blood is put to the weapons, not to Guru Granth Sahib or any other idol or photograph. Though it is not in consonance with Sikh philosophy, like many other practices that have crept into the Sikh way of life, this too requires sane intervention so that it can be stopped. Mere condemnation ad nauseam will not help stopping it.

It is important that we see things objectively and rationally. From the point of view of Sikh image and Sikh practice, this has to be stopped, but this should be bracketed with many other practices and rituals which require serious steps. But there are so many rituals and festivals of other religions which are Celebration of the New Year of the Christian Era, Sammat new month –Sangrand and Full moon day –Pooranmashi. Are these all not anti-Sikh practices?

Guru Nanak Sahib in shabad number25 on pages 1289-90 has explained how the fools quarrel over vegetarianism and meat-eating. In 35 thirty five verses starting with "Pehla masaho nimiya maasai ander vas". "pihlW mwshu inMimAw mwsY AMdir vwsu", saying that, "First, the mortal is conceived in the flesh, and then he dwells in the flesh". Gurbani repeatedly reiterates that God is equally abiding in His Creation including food grains, water, vegetation, animal and human bodies. Gurbani strictly condemns sacrifices of animals for pleasing deities and offerings of eatables in fire for performing Havan, Yagyan, Lohri and other such festivities.

On page number 1275 of Guru Granth Sahib, Guru Nanak Sahib has further explained the law of nature that, “Ek ji, kai jiyaan khahi ”, “eyk jIA , kY jIAw KwhI” means “One life eats several lives”.

On page number 955, Guru Angad Sahib Ji further clarifies saying that, “Jiya ka ahar ji, khana yeho karey ”, “jIAw kw Ahwr jIA Kwxw eyhu kryie]”, meaning “God has made the creatures’ food for other creatures.”

There is enough historical evidence that in the in the langar of Guru Nanak Sahib and Guru Gobind Singh, meat was cooked and served. As the sentiments of non-meat eaters were hurt, it was subsequently stopped. Thus, Guru Ka Langar has gone purely vegetarian and should be accepted and venerated by one and all.

Since thousands of years, Jhatka is an Indian tradition of killing any animal with one stroke. In Assam, Rajasthan and some other north Indian regions, it is still prevailing. Halal meat is actually Zubah meat (half cut throat) which is halal (permitted) for the Muslims. This tradition is borrowed by them from Jewish religion's "Kosher meat". This sort of meat is specifically declared harram (forbidden-sinful) for the Sikhs in Sikh Rehat Maryada. The diktat to eat Jhatka meat was a revolt against the established custom of the time and also a step of rebellion against Muslim tyranny.

Those who advocate vegetarianism among Sikhs is deliberately overlooking the provisions of Sikh Rehat Maryada, which clearly prohibits consuming Kuththa (halal meat) and does not in any manner prevent Sikhs from being non-vegetarians. It is the discretion and liberty of Amritdharis to consume meat, if they choose to do so. Also, any Sikh, who chooses to be vegetarian, is welcome to remain so, but it is foolhardy, naïve and wrong to attempt to amend the Sikh religious ethos according to this choice.

Nanak Singh “Nishter” is a Hyderabad-based orator, writer and Urdu poet. He is a regular columnist of World Sikh News. He is an activist-academician making immense contribution to the social and cultural welfare of Sikh society. He is director of International Sikh Centre for Interfaith Relations. He may be contacted at nanaknishter@gmail.com

Welcome Randip Singh on Sikhawareness. I really enjoyed your post on sikh-history.com. We are honor to have you here regardless of any difference of opinions.

No thank you for letting me come here.

The www.sikh-history.com board had now changed to www.sikhphilosophy.net. It woulf be good to have links with you guys, because I understand you are a non-Jatha/sect aligned forum like us. Is that true?

I don't want to get into the meat debate. But just curious, where in this Shabad does it mention Abraham or any referance to a person named Abraham?

Prof Sahib Singh's translation of this Shabad seems much more accurate than the Sant Singh one in english

I think the point is one does not read Bani without understanding the context. One needs to understand the "crowd" the Guru's were talking too. If one looks into the history of where this idea o Quabani, Halal, Bismil comes from then you must understand the Abrahamic faiths like the Guru's and thair audience did, how else could the Guru's make the following assertion:

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...id=18290#l18290

Page 397, Line 7

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਹਭਾ ਹੂੰ ਬਾਹਰਾ ॥

बेद कतेब संसार हभा हूं बाहरा ॥

Beḏ kaṯeb sansār habẖā hūʼn bāhrā.

He is beyond the world of the Vedas, the Koran and the Bible.

Walk in the foot steps of the Guru's. Be physically and mentally fit. If they had not had been of a divine persuation, they would have been formiddable scholars.

On the contrary Randip Singh, It is not a case of winning and loosing but about misleading people as have been done in your essay by selecting English translations of the verses that are incorrect in the first place and further using your own twist on them. I am writing a full response to your essay and in due course i will publish it. You yourself have no understanding of Gurmukhi and are unable to read it, let alone trying to translate it. The proof will come out in the wash. Unfortunately for you, you are not going to have the controls of the moderators in this forum (unless you can buy yourself in) that you have exercised in deleting my posts. Mithar ji has already posted a question to you that SPN did not have the eyes or the understanding to see or it suits their agenda.

When did you last use a dictionary. Let me give you a small lesson here.

Lets first look at the definitions of Halal and Bismil:

By definition:

Halal – Ritual Slaughter: describes meat from animals that have been slaughtered in the ritual way prescribed by Islamic law

Slaughter - the killing of animals for their meat

Bismil - means to carry out an act in the name of Allah

Please note that these scholars have come up with new meanings here. We are being told to take a blind view that Halal does not mean kill but refers to a specific form of slaughter. Let us now see what slaughter means: the killing of animals for their meat. So we have to conclude that Halal does mean killing.

Now let me ask you here. When the animal is slaughtered by Jhatka! And the crowd chants “Bole so nihaal, Sat sri akaal.” How is that so different from saying Bismilla . Do you know that Jhatka is method of slaughter by HINDUS. How is their way of slaughter accepted over other denials

Are the authors so illiterate and simple minded that it did not occur to them to consult a dictionary. So far there is no credibility in the essay, the author or the Editor. They have gained support from well educated individual who sing praises for this essay. This shows the mindsets of these supporters.

The authors have dismissed this shabad as it does not carry the word Maas. Bravo to the Editor. He is so very right.

Randip Singh, I do not blame your ignorance.

Asankh MOORAKH ANDHGHOR

Asankh CHOR HARAMKHOOR

Asankh GALWAD HATYA KAMAYE

Asankh PAAPI PAAP KAR JAHE

Asankh KOORDIAAR KOODE PHIRAHE

Asankh MALESH MAL BHAKH KHAHE

Asankh NINDAK SIR KARE BHAAR

Nanak neech kare kahe vichaar

Wariya na java ek vaar

JO TUDH BHAVE SAIE BHALIKAAR

TU SADA SALAMAT NIRANKAAR - Japji Sahib.

People like you exist in this world too but it is the truth that always wins.

The response to you essay where your only contribution as the editor is to find the word maas will come very shortly together with several others of your mindset. Like my post above that is most probably beyond your understanding, i will show how the bani has been twisted.

Having said that I have no enmity with you. People like you form part of this world. This is a SikhAwareness Board forum. They are part of any Cults and I intend to make people Aware of the truth over the Scathing lies you have spewed.

Wishing you well.

ekmusafir_ajnabi

PS Just in case this forum also has an agenda and cuts my posts, come for parshad on my eBlogger. Also bring out your unknown authors from hiding.

Musafir ji, you have been defeated on Halal and Bismil too at sikhphilosophy.net, and that is why you ran away. If you don't understand the difference between sacrifice in the name of God and giving thanks to God then you do not understand Sikhism. Like I said before, you are a Vaishnavite masquerading as a Sikh trying to make Sikhs weak and split them.

You also made an outrageous claim you knew one of the Guru's personally and that you spoke to him and you physically sat and talked to him.

...and here are the scholars that ALL disagree with you:

Throughout Sikh history, there have been movements or subsects of Sikhism which have espoused vegetarianism. I think there is no basis for such dogma or practice in Sikhism. Certainly Sikhs do not think that a vegetarian's achievements in spirituality are easier or higher. It is surprising to see that vegetarianism is such an important facet of Hindu practice in light of the fact that animal sacrifice was a significant and much valued Hindu Vedic ritual for ages. Guru Nanak in his writings clearly rejected both sides of the arguments - on the virtues of vegetarianism or meat eating - as banal and so much nonsense, nor did he accept the idea that a cow was somehow more sacred than a horse or a chicken. He also refused to be drawn into a contention on the differences between flesh and greens, for instance. History tells us that to impart this message, Nanak cooked meat at an important Hindu festival in Kurukshetra. Having cooked it he certainly did not waste it, but probably served it to his followers and ate himself. History is quite clear that Guru Hargobind and Guru Gobind Singh were accomplished and avid hunters. The game was cooked and put to good use, to throw it away would have been an awful waste.

Sikhs and Sikhism by I.J. Singh, Manohar, Delhi

The ideas of devotion and service in Vaishnavism have been accepted by Adi Granth, but the insistence of Vaishnavas on vegetarian diet has been rejected.

Guru Granth Sahib, An Analytical Study by Surindar Singh Kohli, Singh Bros. Amritsar

Commenting on meat being served in the langar during the time of Guru Angad: However, it is strange that now-a-days in the Community-Kitchen attached to the Sikh temples, and called the Guru's Kitchen (or, Guru-ka-langar) meat-dishes are not served at all. May be, it is on account of its being, perhaps, expensive, or not easy to keep for long. Or, perhaps the Vaishnava tradition is too strong to be shaken off.

A History of the Sikh People by Dr. Gopal Singh, World Sikh University Press, Delhi

As a true Vaisnavite Kabir remained a strict vegetarian. Kabir far from defying Brahmanical tradition as to the eating of meat, would not permit so much, as the plucking of a flower (G.G.S. pg 479), whereas Nanak deemed all such scruples to be superstitions, Kabir held the doctrine of Ahinsa or the non-destruction of life, which extended even to that of flowers. The Sikh Gurus, on the contrary, allowed and even encouraged, the use of animal flesh as food. Nanak has exposed this Ahinsa superstition in Asa Ki War (G.G.S. pg 472) and Malar Ke War (G.G.S. pg. 1288).

Philosophy of Sikhism by Gyani Sher Singh (Ph.D), Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee. Amritsar

The Gurus were loath to pronounce upon such matters as the eating of meat or ways of disposing of the dead because undue emphasis on them could detract from the main thrust of their message which had to do with spiritual liberation. However, Guru Nanak did reject by implication the practice of vegetarianism related to ideas of pollution when he said, 'All food is pure; for God has provided it for our sustenance' (AG 472). Many Sikhs are vegetarian and meat should never be served at langar. Those who do eat meat are unlikely to include beef in their diet, at least in India, because of their cultural proximity to Hindus.

A Popular Dictionary of Sikhism, W.Owen Cole and Piara Singh Sambhi, England

In general Sikhism has adopted an ambivalent attitude towards meat eating as against vegetarianism. But if meat is to be taken at all, Guru Gobind Singh enjoined on the Khalsa Panth not to take kosher meat ie. Halal meat slaughtered and prepared for eating according to the Islamic practice. In fact it is one of the kurahits for every amritdhari Sikh. One who infringes it becomes patit (apostate).

Sikhism, A Complete Introduction by Dr. H.S. Singha and Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press, Delhi

A close study of the above-mentioned hymns of Guru Nanak Dev clarifies the Sikh standpoint regarding meat-eating. The Guru has not fallen into the controversy of eating or not eating animal food. He has ridiculed the religious priests for raising their voice in favour of vegetarianism. He called them hypocrites and totally blind to the realities of life. They are unwise and thoughtless persons, who do not go into the root of the matter. According to him, the water is the source of all life whether vegetable or animal. Guru Nanak Dev said. "None of the grain of corn is without life. In the first place, there is life in water, by which all are made green" (Var Asa M.1, p. 472). Thus there is life in vegetation and life in all types of creatures.

Real Sikhism by Surinder Singh Kohli, Harman Publishing, New Delhi

The Gurus neither advocate meat nor banned its use. They left it to the choice of the individual. There are passages against meat, in the Adi Granth. Guru Gobind Singh however prohibited for the Khalsa the use of Halal or Kutha meat prepared in the Muslim ritualistic way.

Introduction to Sikhism by Dr. Gobind Singh Mansukhani, Hemkunt Press, Delhi

There are no restrictions for the Sikhs regarding food, except that the Sikhs are forbidden to eat meat prepared as a ritual slaughter. The Sikhs are asked to abstain from intoxicants.

Introduction to Sikhism by G.S. Sidhu, Shromini Sikh Sangat, Toronto

According to the Maryada booklet 'Kutha', the meat prepared by the Muslim ritual, is prohibited for a Sikh. Regarding eating other meat, it is silent. From the prohibition of the Kutha meat, it is rightly presumed that non-Kutha meat is not prohibited for the Sikhs. Beef is prohibited to the Hindus and pork to the Muslims. Jews and Christians have their own taboos. They do not eat certain kinds of meat on certain days. Sikhs have no such instructions. If one thinks he needs to eat meat, it does not matter which meat it is, beef, poultry, fish, etc., or which day it is. One should, however, be careful not to eat any meat harmful for his health. Gurbani's instructions on this topic are very clear. "Only fools argue whether to eat meat or not. Who can define what is meat and what is not meat? Who knows where the sin lies, being a vegetarian or a non-vegetarian?" (1289) The Brahmanical thought that a religious person should be a vegetarian is of recent origin. Earlier, Brahmans had been eating beef and horse meat. In conclusion, it is wrong to say that any person who eats meat (of course Kutha, because of the Muslim rituals is prohibited) loses his membership of the Khalsa and becomes an apostate.

The Sikh Faith by Gurbakhsh Singh, Canadian Sikh Study and Teaching Society, Vancouver

The above discussion leads us to the conclusion that the Sikh Gurus made people aware of the fact that it is very difficult to distinguish between a plant and an animal, therefore, it is difficult to distinguish between a vegetarian and a non-vegetarian diets and there is no sin of eating food originating from plants or animals.

Scientific Interpretation of Gurbani, Paper by Dr. Devinder Singh Chahal

The practice of the Gurus is uncertain. Guru Nanak seems to have eaten venison or goat, depending upon different janamsakhi versions of a meal which he cooked at Kurukshetra which evoked the criticism of Brahmins. Guru Amardas ate only rice and lentils but this abstention cannot be regarded as evidence of vegetarianism, only of simple living. Guru Gobind Singh also permitted the eating of meat but he prescribed that it should be Jhatka meat and not Halal meat that is jagged in the Muslim fashion.

Mini Encyclopaedia of Sikhism by H.S. Singha, Hemkunt Press, Delhi.

In the meantime read this folks:

* Professor Gurbax Singh Dhillon - Meat Eating and Rehat Maryada - http://www.sikhs.wellington.net.nz/meat.pdf

* Video Showing Jhatka at Hazoor Sahib

* www.sikhs.org/meat_au.htm

* www.sikhs.org/meat.htm

* http://www.sikhs.org/meat_gn.htm

* http://www.sikhs.org/meat_gs.htm

* http://www.sikhs.org/meat_q.htm

* http://www.sikhnextdoor.org/teachers/faq.html

* http://www.sikhism.com/rehatmaryada

* http://popularsikh.com/node/65642

* http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/Presp...h_tradition.pdf http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/Presp...h_tradition.pdf

*http://www.worldsikhnews.com/21%20January%202009/Goat%20Sacrifice%20at%20Hazur%20Sahib%20%20Myth%20&%20Truth.htm

PS we have over 8000 members at SPN, I don't check every post.

Yup, it's showing now.

Is this the avtar that you commented on?

Source: http://www.dilgeer.com/famous.htm

I came across this link of writers and it has good information. I'm not sure if analysis is right or not but you can see the list.

Famous Sikh Writers & Anti Sikh Writers

Theology: Bhai Gurdas, Bhai Nand Lal, Bhai Mani Singh, Bhai Vir Singh, Prof. Gurmukh Singh, Giani Dit Singh, Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha, Dr. Sher Singh, Bhai Jodh Singh, Prof. Sahib Singh, Bhai Randhir Singh, Sirdar Kapur Singh, Dr. Surinder Singh Kohli, Dr. Taran Singh, Dr. Darshan Singh, Dr. Harjinder Singh Dilgeer, Dr. Jodh Singh, Dr. Wazir Singh, Sirdar Daljeet Singh etc.

History: Bhai Sainapati, Bhai Koer Singh, Bhai Sukkha Singh, Bhai Kesar Singh Chhiber, Bhai Swarup Singh Kaushish, Bhai Sewa Singh, Bhai Ratan Singh Bhangu, Bhai Santokh Singh, Giani Gian Singh, Baba Prem Singh Hoti, S. Karam Singh Historian, Dr. Ganda Singh, Dr. Kirpal Singh, Akali Kaur Singh, Principal Teja Singh, Giani Lal Singh, Prof. Harbans Singh, Prof. Kirpal Singh, Dr. Harjinder Singh Dilgeer, Dr. Gurmit Singh Sirsa, S. Gurratan Pal Singh, S. Sohan Singh Josh, Giani Tarlok Singh, Dr. Gurbachan Singh Nayyar, Dr. Dalip Singh, Dr. Madanjit Kaur, Principal Pritam Singh, S. Jagjit Singh, Giani Kesar Singh, S. Jasbir Singh Sarna etc.

Poetry: Bhai Gurdas, Bhai Nand Lal, Bhai Vir Singh, Prof. Puran Singh, Bhai Hira Singh Dard, S. Teja Singh Sabar, S. Vidhata Singh Tir, S. Piara Singh Nirshal, S. Ram Narayan Singh Dardi, S. Pritam Singh Safeer, Dr. Sadhu Singh Hamdard, S. Sohan Singh Seetal, Dr. Harjinder Singh Dilgeer, Prof. Sher Singh Kanwal, S Ajit Singh Rahi, S. Jasbir Singh Sarna, S. Gajinder Singh etc.

Fiction: Bhai Vir Singh, Master Tara Singh, Bhai Lal Singh Kamla Akali, Bhai Nanak Singh, Bhai Sujan Singh, Giani Kesar Singh, S. Karam Singh Zakhmi, Giani Bhajan Singh, Giani Tarlok Singh, Dr. Dalip Kaur Tiwana, Mrs. Ajit Kaur etc.

Others:- Akali Kaur Singh, Giani Garja Singh, Dr. Harnam Singh Shan, Dr. Diwan Singh, Sirdar Piara Singh Padam, S. Manohar Singh Marco, Dr. Jasbir Singh Mann, Sirdar Ajit Singh Bagha, S. Sarup Singh Narang, etc.

Anti-Sikh Writers and Propagandists:- Bute Shah, Earnest Trump, Shardha Ram Phillauri, W. H. McLeod (New Zealand) [known to be the ring-leader of the Anti-Sikhism School], J. S. Grewal, Sujit Hans, Harjot Oberoi, Pishaura Sinh, Jasbir S. Ahluwalia, Amrita Imroz (formerly Amrita Pritam), Gurinder Maan, Ian Mulgrew (Canada), Rudy Thomsen (Denmark) etc. These propagandists have been collaborated by Khushwant Singh, Patwant Singh, Piara S. Bhogal, Jaswant S. Kanwal, Mohinder Singh (Delhi), S.S.Dhanoa, I. J. Singh (New York) etc. In fact, with the exception of Dr. Noel Q. King, most of the non-Sikh writers, while writing about the Sikhs, have collaborated with the "Anti-Sikhism School" in one or another manner. There is another conspiracy of propaganda against the Sikh religion: in the name of Sikh studies, chairs have been established in the universities at Toronto, Vancouver, Michigen, New York, California etc.and the associates of Anti-Sikhism School have been appointed there apparently with the intention of production and promotion of blasphemous and malicious writings against Sikhism. There seems to be an international anti-Sikhism movement. Some famous publication houses including Oxford University Press, the Penguins and Cambridge University Press seem to be ever ready to publish each and every book produced by "Anti-Sikhism School", in spite of the fact that those works have no commercial or academic value.

Entires about Sikhism, in Encyclopaedia Britannica and several other encyclopaedias, which have been written by the persons mentioned above are mischievous, most of the material is inaccurate, distorted and concoted. All this is a part of some international conspiracy against the Sikhs.

For comprehensive information read books:

McLeod…. As scholars of Sikh studies

By Gurdarshan Singh Dhillon

Another book by Dr Trilochan Singh

Totally do not agree with you!

There are no pro or anti Sikh writers, only differing views.

For example, I hate some of Mcleods theories, but they are easy to debunk by using his own research. In fact his research is very valuable.

I am sure any variety of accusations against Sikhsangat would fail to surprise any individuals. Have a look at wild accusations someone is making against Baba Santa Singh here. http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showto...12&start=12

A while ago I remember reading on the forum the story of Bhai Randhir Singh asking Sant Gurbacan Singh to do ardas to ask maharaj for forgiveness for the mistakes which he had made with regards to Raagmala issue. This is a story verifiable by many mahapursh and Singhs from both Jathas have verified that this took place. However, the sikh sangat moderators promtly deleted the post and the link to where the story was contained stating that there was no evidence the event had occurred suggesting that the story was a fairytale one which had been made up to cause conflict between jathas. Yet, an anonymous individual is allowed to post outragoues allegations, hearsay which he has probably made up, of someone who spent 80 years of his life doing seva of the panth.

Undoubtedly, many may have negative opinions of with Baba Santa Singh with regards to 1984, does this justify making up blasphemous rumours against another Sikh? What is concerning is that the moderators of Sikhsangat have not edited the slanderous post. However, I am not at all surprised. By reading a few posts in sikhsangat, it becomes clear that the culture is such that abusing Nihang Singhs has become popular. In a brief browse I have seen Nihang Singhs called dogs, b*stards etc without any editing or warning given to those who have posted. This begs the question why a forum which should exist as a platform for panthic ekta allows abuse of certain Sikhs to openly occur while censoring verifiable stories about certain individuals?

A very sad state of affairs, I would be grateful if someone with a sikhsangat account could post this there to see what reply the moderators offer for thier biased behaviour.

The moderators on siikhsangat are kids. They have little or no knowledge of Sikh history. All they are good for is nindya and causing riots outside thearters.

The Fools argue shouting over Flesh

Maas Maas Kar Murakh Jhagre

The verse on page 1289 SGGS has been used by many prominent scholars as a means to justify their desires of eating flesh. They merely concentrate on the first part of the verse, whilst ignoring the real message. Guru ji is challenging the hypocritical stand of the Pandits/Scholars.

The shabad relates to an event that took place in Kurkshettar. During the first Udasi, Guru ji visited Kurukshetra, a place where the famous battle of Mahabharat was fought between the Kauravs and the Pandavs. It was an occasion of solar eclipse when the Guru ji visited Kurukshetra. Thousands of pilgrims from all over the country including a large number of Brahmins and Saints had gathered there. Hindus consider it sacred to go to Kurukshetra at the time of solar eclipse, bathe in the holy tank and give alms to Brahmin priests. According to Hindu belief, solar eclipse occurs when Sun, the God, is harassed by its enemies, the demons. None is required to eat anything during the eclipse. Guru ji has as we see from historial evidence, has again challanged the hypocritical practices prevalent in the society. Guru ji intended here to highlight to the erring Hindu community that the eclipse was nothing but only a natural phenomenon. On this occasion, he noted the pundits were into heated arguments on the issue of flesh.

In order to attract attention of the crowd, as the Sun began to eclipse, he availed a dead dear from the forest and asked mardana to begin roasting it. The smell attracted the crowed and they came running to see what was happening. Undoubtedly the Pundits and general public would have considered this act sacrilege to their beliefs A large angry crowd gathered in anger to attack the persons responsible.

Some scholars tend to over emphasise this incidence and take the opportunity to highlight the issue that Guru ji Cooked and ate meat. They also attach stories like:

1. Meat dish of a deer was presented to them by one of his followers.

2. Meat was given to Guru ji as an offering, he did not refuse the courtesies of his devotee (Bhai Mani Singh, Gyan Ratnavali, pg. 123)

3. The deer-meat was, according to this version, brought to him as an offering by a Prince and his consort, who having been dispossessed of their realm, came to him for a blessing. (Dr Gopal Singh World Sikh University Press, Delhi )

Let us look at the absurdity of these statements first.

- The event in question is marked as a religious event where everyone if fasting. No one would have in their possession cooked or uncooked meat for that matter.

- Guru ji is not a familiar face that he would attract his followers to this fair.

- No one would want to associate with a person who would have intended to disrespected the beliefs of thousands of gatherers let alone an unknown Prince and his Consort.

- The statement by Bhai Mani Singh is subjected to manipulation. One who has spent his life in the Company of Guru Gobind Singh ji would be spiritually mature not to make such a statement.

- Present day Sikhs that support meat eating are actually partaking in killing bakra(He goat) for meat and not deers.

These statements are not only contradictory to the teachings of Guru Nanak Panth but inconsistent with the prevalent culture and are dismissed as non- conclusive. We must remember that throughout the lives of our Gurus, even their own family members were working against their teachings. So to misquote or mischievously alter text is not uncommon.

Unfortunately these people are no more smarter than the pandits (scholars) that were arguing about flesh. Guru ji calls them fools.

In order to do justice to the verse it is important to look at the entire theme of flesh that starts with Pauri on page 1289 followed by 2 Shabads. The theme that follows this is related to the taste of the tongue. All Shabads are by Guru Nanak Dev ji.

Pauri : ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹੀਐ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਹੋਰਿ ਬੁਧੀ ਮਿਥਿਆ

Mehla 1 : ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਨਿੰਮਿਆ ਮਾਸੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਵਾਸੁ ॥

Mehla 1: ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥

ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥

ਮਾਸੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਤੇਬੀ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਿ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਮਾਣਾ ॥

The cause of misinterpretation is due the tendency of most prominent scholars is to pick and choose verses from SGGS to suit their personal agenda and the agenda that conforms to their collective manmat of our religious institutions.

Some of these scholars tend to stand on one step on the ladder and attempt to explain every thing from the same step. This leads to misconceptions, distortion of the theme and misleads the listener. The listener is bound by the superiority of the scholar to tell the truth.

Others do to display their superiority just because they have read SGGS more than 50-60 times. It is these people today that fall in the category of Fools as did the Pandits back then.

In the Pauri Guru ji sets the scene of the mentality (ਮੂਰਖੁ) of the foolish scholars followed by a lesson on Gyi-aan and Dhi-yaan before elaborating on flesh.

Let us go through the theme in the sequence it has been laid.

Pauri - A form of versification – Pause.

ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹੀਐ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਹੋਰਿ ਬੁਧੀ ਮਿਥਿਆ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਚੇ ਵਾਪਾਰ ਜਨਮੁ ਬਿਰਥਿਆ ॥ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰੁ ਨ ਕਿਨ ਹੀ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਗਰਬਿ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ਤਿਨ ਸਚੁ ਨ ਭਾਇਆ ॥ ਚਲੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿ ਤਾਵਣਿ ਤਤਿਆ ॥ ਬਲਦੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਤੇਲੁ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਘਤਿਆ ॥ ਆਇਆ ਉਠੀ ਖੇਲੁ ਫਿਰੈ ਉਵਤਿਆ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੈ ਮੇਲੁ ਸਚੈ ਰਤਿਆ ॥੨੪॥

Pa▫oṛī. Paṛĥī▫ai nām sālāh hor buḏẖīʼn mithi▫ā. Bin sacẖe vāpār janam birthi▫ā. Anṯ na pārāvār na kin hī pā▫i▫ā. Sabẖ jag garab gubār ṯin sacẖ na bẖā▫i▫ā. Cẖale nām visār ṯāvaṇ ṯaṯi▫ā. Balḏī anḏar ṯel ḏubiḏẖā gẖaṯi▫ā. Ā▫i▫ā uṯẖī kẖel firai uvṯi▫ā. Nānak sacẖai mel sacẖai raṯi▫ā. ||24||

Pauree: Contemplate on Lords Naam and Sing His Praises; all other intellectual pursuits are false (anything that one evaluates intellectually is false – Sahaj siaanpa lakh ho te ek na challe naal – Japji Sahib.) Without dealing with the Truth (Naam of the True Lord), life is deemed worthless. No one knows the Lord's limit. None has ever found it. The whole world is enveloped by the darkness (blinded) of false egotistical pride; they can not accept the Truth. Those manmukhs that depart forgetting the naam of the Lord (they burn in the fire of desires in their hearts) is like being roasted in a heated pan. Putting oil on their burning fire, they burn due to duality (duality of Ego due to intellectual knowledge), They come into the world and depart when the play is over, in between leading an aimless life. Nanak proclaims, upon meeting the true Lord(the Omnipresent), the mortal gets imbued and merges in the Truth. ||24||

So who are the fools, they are those that are on intellectual pursuit of spirituality, those that are bereft from Naam. The best critic is one that is a failure in his field. They are blind and enveloped by the darkness of false egoistic pride. How can they stand the truth because that is a hindrance to their trade. It is upon meeting the true Lord(the Omnipresent), the mortal gets imbued and merges in the Truth. ||24||

ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਅਸਟਪਦੀਆ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੧੦

ਰੈਣਿ ਅੰਧਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਜੋਤਿ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਝੂਠੇ ਕੁਚਲ ਕਛੋਤਿ ॥ ਬੇਦੁ ਪੁਕਾਰੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਸਰੋਤਿ ॥ ਸੁਣਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਮਾਨੈ ਵੇਖੈ ਜੋਤਿ ॥੬॥ (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 831)

Raiṇ anḏẖārī nirmal joṯ. Nām binā jẖūṯẖe kucẖal kacẖẖoṯ. Beḏ pukārai bẖagaṯ saroṯ. Suṇ suṇ mānai vekẖai joṯ. ||6||

Without the blessing of Naam Simran their life is like a dark night, only the divine light can dispel their darkness. Those that lack Naam of the Lord are false, filthy and untouchable. The Vedas preach them sermons of devotional worship, those who listen, listens and accepts it (brings forth devotional love) beholds the divine light.

ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੧ ॥

ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਨਿੰਮਿਆ ਮਾਸੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਵਾਸੁ ॥ ਜੀਉ ਪਾਇ ਮਾਸੁ ਮੁਹਿ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਹਡੁ ਚੰਮੁ ਤਨੁ ਮਾਸੁ ॥ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਢਿਆ ਮੰਮਾ ਮਾਸੁ ਗਿਰਾਸੁ ॥ ਮੁਹੁ ਮਾਸੈ ਕਾ ਜੀਭ ਮਾਸੈ ਕੀ ਮਾਸੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਾਸੁ ॥

ਵਡਾ ਹੋਆ ਵੀਆਹਿਆ ਘਰਿ ਲੈ ਆਇਆ ਮਾਸੁ ॥ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਹੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਊਪਜੈ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਸਭੋ ਸਾਕੁ ॥

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਬੁਝੀਐ ਤਾਂ ਕੋ ਆਵੈ ਰਾਸਿ ॥ ਆਪਿ ਛੁਟੇ ਨਹ ਛੂਟੀਐ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਚਨਿ ਬਿਣਾਸੁ ॥੧॥

Salok mėhlā 1. Pahilāʼn māsahu nimmi▫ā māsai anḏar vās. Jī▫o pā▫e mās muhi mili▫ā had cẖamm ṯan mās.

Māsahu bāhar kadẖi▫ā mammā mās girās. Muhu māsai kā jībẖ māsai kī māsai anḏar sās. vadā ho▫ā vī▫āhi▫ā gẖar lai ā▫i▫ā mās. Māsahu hī mās ūpjai māsahu sabẖo sāk.

Saṯgur mili▫ai hukam bujẖī▫ai ṯāʼn ko āvai rās. Āp cẖẖute nah cẖẖūtī▫ai Nānak bacẖan biṇās. ||1||

Shalok, First Mehl:

First, the mortal is conceived in the flesh, and then he dwells in the flesh (Womb). When he comes alive (i.e. soul enters the body), he finds his tongue in the mouth is of flesh; his bones, skin and body are all flesh. As he comes out of (the womb) flesh, and takes a mouthful of flesh (suckles on the breast). His mouth is of flesh, his tongue is of flesh; his breath dwells is in flesh. He grows up and gets married, and brings his wife of flesh into his home. From flesh (womb), flesh (children) is produced; all his relatives are made of flesh. When the mortal meets the True Guru, then he realizes the Hukam of the Lord's Command, then he comes to be reformed. Trying to release oneself, the mortal does not find release (release from the company of flesh from birth to death); Nanak Proclaims, making such unqualified claims, is damaging and fruitless ||1||

Guru ji has bestowed Spiritual knowledge on us that from birth to death we are part of flesh. It is all around us. Our soul , our breath dwells in flesh. It is with meeting the True Guru, that one realizes the Hukam of the Lord's Command, and he comes to understand and becomes aware of his surroundings. As you can see this is a lesson of Gyi-aan.

ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਕਉਣੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਉਣੁ ਸਾਗੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥ ਗੈਂਡਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਕੀਏ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੇ ॥ ਮਾਸੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਬੈਸਿ ਨਕੁ ਪਕੜਹਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ॥ ਫੜੁ ਕਰਿ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੋ ਦਿਖਲਾਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝੈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਧੇ ਸਿਉ ਕਿਆ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਬੂਝੈ ॥

Mėhlā 1. Mās mās kar mūrakẖ jẖagṛe gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān nahī jāṇai. Ka▫uṇ mās ka▫uṇ sāg kahāvai kis mėh pāp samāṇe. Gaiʼndā mār hom jag kī▫e ḏeviṯi▫ā kī bāṇe. Mās cẖẖod bais nak pakṛėh rāṯī māṇas kẖāṇe. Faṛ kar lokāʼn no ḏikẖlāvahi gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān nahī sūjẖai. Nānak anḏẖe si▫o ki▫ā kahī▫ai kahai na kahi▫ā būjẖai.

First Mehl: The fools argue shouting about flesh, but they know nothing about meditation (higher understanding – understanding of a spiritual life) and spiritual wisdom (higher conscience). What is called meat, and what is called spinach (green leafed vegetables) What leads to sin? You have killed the rhinoceros, and made a sacrificial offering to appease the Gods(according to their assumed nature). Now you have forsaken meat and sit holding your noses but you devour men at night (planning /scheming to defraud people). You make a show before other people ( practice of hypocrisy of not eating meat) because or their inability to explain it through Gi-aan and Dhi-aan. Nanak Says, what can be said to these (Spiritually) blind people? Even if one tries to explain them they will not understand what is being said.

Guru ji explains here to the pundits that just because they do not now eat meat, they are not free from flesh. Little do they understand the purpose spiritual life nor do they have any awareness. Else they would sit and contemplate on the difference between flesh(meat) and spinach and by eating which leads to sin and which does not. In ancient times, people used to make sacrifices to please the Dieties according to their nature(to please them) they would kill the rhinoceros and make a feast of the burnt offerings. Those people that think they have forsaken flesh, and on the occasions they see flesh, they hold their noses. In essence these very people devour humans at night i.e. they plot to deceive/cheat them. They practice hypocrisy (of not eating meat), and make a show before other people, but they have no understanding or awareness of what to say. Nanak proclaims that there is no point in educating these people, Even if one makes an effort to explain them they will not understand what is being said.

They are fools as they argue for the sake of argument without knowing what in meat. They are totally ignorant. To use the above shabad to emphasise that Guru ji is advocating meat eating, puts those individuals in the same category of blind people and fools that argue about flesh, they are devoid of the understanding about meditation (higher understanding – understanding of a spiritual life) and spiritual wisdom (higher conscience).

ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤੁ ਨਿਪੰਨੇ ਮਛੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਨ ਖਾਂਹੀ ॥ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਪੁਰਖੈ ਜਾਂ ਨਿਸਿ ਮੇਲਾ ਓਥੈ ਮੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਹੀ ॥ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਨਿੰਮੇ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਜੰਮੇ ਹਮ ਮਾਸੈ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ॥ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕਛੁ ਸੂਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਤੁਰੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਪਾਂਡੇ ॥ ਬਾਹਰ ਕਾ ਮਾਸੁ ਮੰਦਾ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਘਰ ਕਾ ਮਾਸੁ ਚੰਗੇਰਾ ॥ ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਸਭਿ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਹੋਏ ਜੀਇ ਲਇਆ ਵਾਸੇਰਾ ॥ ਅਭਖੁ ਭਖਹਿ ਭਖੁ ਤਜਿ ਛੋਡਹਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਿਨ ਕੇਰਾ ॥ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਨਿੰਮੇ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਜੰਮੇ ਹਮ ਮਾਸੈ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ॥ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕਛੁ ਸੂਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਤੁਰੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਪਾਂਡੇ ॥

Anḏẖā so▫e jė anḏẖ kamāvai ṯis riḏai sė locẖan nāhī. Māṯ piṯā kī rakaṯ nipanne macẖẖī mās na kẖāʼnhī. Isṯarī purkẖai jāʼn nis melā othai manḏẖ kamāhī. Māsahu nimme māsahu jamme ham māsai ke bẖāʼnde. Gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān kacẖẖ sūjẖai nāhī cẖaṯur kahāvai pāʼnde. Bāhar kā mās manḏā su▫āmī gẖar kā mās cẖangerā. Jī▫a janṯ sabẖ māsahu ho▫e jī▫e la▫i▫ā vāserā. Abẖakẖ bẖakẖėh bẖakẖ ṯaj cẖẖodėh anḏẖ gurū jin kerā. Māsahu nimme māsahu jamme ham māsai ke bẖāʼnde. Gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān kacẖẖ sūjẖai nāhī cẖaṯur kahāvai pāʼnde.

They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes (light of spiritual wisdom) in their hearts. They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat (being hypocritical of fish and meat eaters). But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh and there they perform bad deeds. In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh. You have no awareness of spiritual wisdom and meditation, and yet you call yourself clever. O master, you believe that flesh outside is bad, but the flesh of those inside your own home is good. All beings and creatures are of flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh. You eat the uneatable but you reject and abandon what is eatable, they have a teacher who is blind. In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh. O Pandit, you have no awareness of spiritual wisdom and meditation, and you call yourself clever.

Who is blind/ignorant? They whose actions are based on ignorance. Those that have no spiritual understanding. Otherwise if common sense prevails on them, they themselves they should realise that they too are a product of the blood of their parents. How can you condemn flesh as being bad (flesh that is not part of them). They are being hypocritical of fish and meat eaters. But when men and women meet in the night, there it is with the same flesh they perform bad deeds (ਮੰਧੁ = Bad, ਕਮਾਹੀ= Karam, deeds). The Pundit unnecessarily participates in an argument on the issue of flesh to prove his superiority over others. The underlying truth is he himself does not understand or have any awareness of the reality. He is hypocritical of the flesh that is outside his confines but the flesh of those inside his own home(his wife), he considers as good. All beings and creatures around us are of flesh. Our soul has taken up its home in the flesh. You eat the uneatable (earning by deceptive means) but you reject and abandon what is edible, (This should not be taken as an open invitation to eat.) The point to note here is that Guru ji talking here about flesh and how we are all born of flesh. He does not advocate eating here because the purpose of this discussion was not about eating but the provide an understanding to the Pandit who lacked knowledge of the subject and participates in an argument. Each time Guru ji says uses the word flesh, he makes repeated references to the understanding of where flesh comes from and not to the eating aspect.

ਮਾਸੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਤੇਬੀ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਿ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਮਾਣਾ ॥ ਜਜਿ ਕਾਜਿ ਵੀਆਹਿ ਸੁਹਾਵੈ ਓਥੈ ਮਾਸੁ ਸਮਾਣਾ ॥ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਨਿਪਜਹਿ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾਂ ॥ ਜੇ ਓਇ ਦਿਸਹਿ ਨਰਕਿ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਤਾਂ ਉਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕਾ ਦਾਨੁ ਨ ਲੈਣਾ ॥ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਨਰਕਿ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਲੈਦੇ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਏਹੁ ਧਿਙਾਣਾ ॥ ਆਪਿ ਨ ਬੂਝੈ ਲੋਕ ਬੁਝਾਏ ਪਾਂਡੇ ਖਰਾ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥ ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੂ ਜਾਣੈ ਹੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਥਹੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਉਪੰਨਾ ॥ ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਕਮਾਦੁ ਕਪਾਹਾਂ ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਗੰਨਾ ॥ ਤੋਆ ਆਖੈ ਹਉ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਹਛਾ ਤੋਐ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਬਿਕਾਰਾ ॥ ਏਤੇ ਰਸ ਛੋਡਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹੈ ਵਿਚਾਰਾ ॥੨॥

Mās purāṇī mās ketābīʼn cẖahu jug mās kamāṇā. Jaj kāj vī▫āhi suhāvai othai mās samāṇā. Isṯarī purakẖ nipjahi māsahu pāṯisāh sulṯānāʼn. Je o▫e ḏisėh narak jāʼnḏe ṯāʼn unĥ kā ḏān na laiṇā. Ḏeʼnḏā narak surag laiḏe ḏekẖhu ehu ḏẖińāṇā. Āp na būjẖai lok bujẖā▫e pāʼnde kẖarā si▫āṇā. Pāʼnde ṯū jāṇai hī nāhī kithhu mās upannā. Ŧo▫i▫ahu ann kamāḏ kapāhāʼn ṯo▫i▫ahu ṯaribẖavaṇ gannā. Ŧo▫ā ākẖai ha▫o baho biḏẖ hacẖẖā ṯoai bahuṯ bikārā. Ėṯe ras cẖẖod hovai sani▫āsī Nānak kahai vicẖārā. ||2||

Meat is permitted in the Puraanas, meat is also permitted in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, flesh has been used. It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them. Women, men, kings and emperors originate from flesh. If one visualises them going to hell, then you should not accept charitable gifts from them. The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven – is this not injustice. You do not understand yourself, but you preach to other people. O Pandit, you stand to be wise. You do not even understand where meat originates from. Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water. Water says, "I am good in many ways." But water too has its shortfalls. If one forsakes all these delicacies, then one becomes a true Sanyasee, a detached hermit. Nanak says reflect on this. ||2|| (One who reflects on this will come to an understanding that it is almost impossible to become a true Sanyasee. So cast off you Ego.)

The above shabad refers to the hypocracy of the pundit about flesh. Guru ji is telling the pundit that you are a hypocrite. Today you have stopped eating meat and it has become bad. You have been feasting on meat for the past yugas in all of your ceremonies. The fact of the matter is that you do not know how to respond to this issue and you get into arguments on this subject. Guru ji then bestows the wisdom on the pundit and explains to him that all living beings and creatures are of meat and the origin of meat is water. The soul has chosen to abide in this flesh therefore there is nothing wrong with flesh where ever the lord abides, that place become pure. In the last verse Guru ji refers to the eating of meat as ਰਸ delicacy.

The theme in this shabad is not related to the eating of flesh but to understand what is flesh. Guru ji is emphasizing that do not make statements when you have no understanding of the subject. To merely argue just for the sake of argument is stupidity.

We have seen that the theme in the above shabads by Guru Nanak Dev ji is trying to educate the pandit on the origin of flesh and its purpose. Guru ji by giving historical examples tells the pundit not to be hypocritical about flesh on the basis that today you do not eat flesh and it becomes bad but yesterday it was ok when you were eating it in the pretence of sacrificial offerings to your Gods. One type of flesh is good (wife) and the other is bad when both types originate from water. Flesh becomes sacred because the Lord himself resides in it. The soul dwells in it. This flesh is the temple of the Lord. By killing the animal or for that matter a human being you are causing the soul to become homeless and nature has to create another body for it to be housed so that it can fulfil its karmic life. This is the spiritual reason for not killing. Be it man or animal. Nature calls for an account in both cases. In essence this is what Guru ji is telling us in the above shabads but our manmat scholars due to their inability to understand Gurus message twist the words out of frustration like an individual who has failed in his profession and now has become a critic.

The reason why there is so much confusion and mis-understanding on this topic is because although people have academically acquired high degrees but have the missing element of Spiritual Wisdom. This is not available in books but is a blessing from our Lord.

Other reasons for the misunderstandings is due to the illiteracy of out peers that run these institutions as well as the followers. They take everything for granted as being told by the scholar. No one dares to challenge the Sikh Scholar as no one dared to challenge the Pandit Scholar. There is no difference between them. They are one and the same.

The purpose of this life is to rise above these intricacies and do Naam Simran. It is the religious duty of every human being to make an unselfish contribution to the pool of Naam Simran. Since everything originates from Naam. Time has come to stamp out and expose these fools who are desecrating the sweet memories and teachings of our beloved Gurus.

Ekmusafir_ajnabi – April 2009

ekmusafir_ajnabi@yahoo.com

Dear oh dear, the Vaishnav maat continues here.

Ekh Musafir ji how many forums will you be thrown out of?

Interestingly Ekh Musafir lost the deabte in this thread, that is why he is here:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-s...over-flesh.html

FOOLS WHO WRANGLE OVER FLESH

FOREWARD

The authors of this paper (one a vegetarian and one meat eating Sikh) wrangled hard with their own common sense which told them, dont be a fool and start wrangling over an issue which our great Gurus dismissed as not worthy of discussion. We did however feel as amateur Sikh Historians and commentators on Sikh affairs that we should use our knowledge and experience to clarify what is such a controversial issue. This essay out to be objective as possible but we ourselves probably taking one side as we waded through the arguments and counter arguments produced by vegetarian and meat eating Sikhs. One thing that has incensed us is the use of incorrect History and mistranslation to back up arguments. It was these points that we felt needed clarification and we hope the reader will find that this essay does that.

Mistranslation and Misrepresentation of The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Some of the tukhs of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that are often mistranslated are as follows:

1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p1377)

2. You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p332)

3. Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p1350)

4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p1374)

5. In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p1242)

6. Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24)

7. Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat.

(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Let us analyse each one of these one by one.

1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p1337)

In this instance let us firstly add the Gurmukhi with the English:

mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat.

231

kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh.

bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh. 232

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233

neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi.

sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi. 234

aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o.

neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o. 235

sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o.

jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o. 236

kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi.

arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi.237

har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay.

kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay. 238

kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee sees kaat kar go-ay.

khaylat khaylat haal kar jo kichh ho-ay ta ho-ay. 239

kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee paakay saytee khayl.

kaachee sarsa-uN payl kai naa khal bha-ee na tayl.240

dhooNdhat doleh anDh gat ar cheenat naahee sant.

kahi naamaa ki-o paa-ee-ai bin bhagtahu bhagvant. 241

har so heeraa chhaad kai karahi aan kee aas.

tay nar dojak jaahigay sat bhaakhai ravidaas. 242

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243

He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked.

231

Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,

whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy. 232

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -

no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233

Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.

I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know.234

Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.

Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. 235

Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.

I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. 236

Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.

He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. 237

The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.

Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. 238

Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, then cut off your head, and make it into a ball.

Lose yourself in the play of it, and then whatever will be, will be. 239

Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, play it with someone with committment.

Pressing the unripe mustard seeds produces neither oil nor flour. 240

Searching, the mortal stumbles like a blind person, and does not recognize the Saint.

Says Naam Dayv, how can one obtain the Lord God, without His devotee?

Taking out the sentence we see

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine –

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233

no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Firstly note that maachlee is not flesh, but is indeed fish. The word in Punjabi for flesh is maas. Then secondly one must ask, why is there a forbidding in the consumption of fish specifically. The answer lies in reading the entire paragraph and a picture emerges. In the last two lines the statement is made:

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.

Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243

If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. 243

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Now putting this in its entire context what Bhagat Kabir is actually criticising in the rich and those in power. The thrill seekers, who are addicted to their senses and those addicted to the 5 thieves. Kabir was born around the area of Benares, and was brought up in a poor Muslim weavers family. He saw the excesses of the rich around him, while the poor starved. Foods like fish and wine were associated with the rich who had an excessive disposable income. Marijuana was associated with either idol people or those who had time and money to waste. Kabir abhorred this, and this statement is a social comment about the excesses of the rich. At the end he clearly states, that those people who do their duties as householders (i.e. work hard, care for other etc) are the ones who will be liberated, and those who live by excesses will suffer. One cantherefore clearly see that this is in no way a comment about eating meat (because of mistranslation) or about avoiding certain foods (as has been misrepresented).

2. You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p332)

Again let us put this into its correct context:

ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.

jeevat pitar na maanai ko-oo moo-ayN siraaDh karaahee.

pitar bhee bapuray kaho ki-o paavahi ka-oo-aa kookar khaahee.

Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828 (Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh)

mo ka-o kusal bataavhu ko-ee.

kusal kusal kartay jag binsai kusal bhee kaisay ho-ee. rahaa-o.

maatee kay kar dayvee dayvaa tis aagai jee-o dayhee.

aisay pitar tumaaray kahee-ahi aapan kahi-aa na layhee.

sarjee-o kaateh nirjee-o poojeh ant kaal ka-o bhaaree.

raam naam kee gat nahee jaanee bhai doobay sansaaree.

dayvee dayvaa poojeh doleh paarbarahm nahee jaanaa.

kahat kabeer akul nahee chayti-aa bikhi-aa si-o laptaanaa.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

He does not honor his ancestors while they are alive, but he holds feasts in their honor after they have died.

Tell me, how can his poor ancestors receive what the crows and the dogs have eaten up?

If only someone would tell me what real happiness is!

Speaking of happiness and joy, the world is perishing. How can happiness be found?Pause

Making gods and goddesses out of clay, people sacrifice living beings to them.

Such are your dead ancestors, who cannot ask for what they want.

You murder living beings and worship lifeless things; at your very last moment, you shall suffer in terrible pain.

You do not know the value of the Lord's Name; you shall drown in the terrifying world-ocean.

You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God.

Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Quite clearly when put into context this is nothing to do with meat eating. What is being alluded to is Hindu sacrificial rituals (eg Anustarani http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Rites%20of%20P...ncestors2.html) where animals were sacrificed on the funeral pyre, ancestors or to deities. Yet the Brahmins who performed these rituals were themselves devout vegetarians. This is a comment about the futility of animal sacrifices to stone idols and dead ancestors. It is a comment on hypocrisy.

3. Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p1350)

Again, let us put this into context:

bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai.

ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai.

mulaaN kahhu ni-aa-o khudaa-ee.

tayray man kaa bharam na jaa-ee. rahaa-o.

pakar jee-o aani-aa dayh binaasee maatee ka-o bismil kee-aa.

jot saroop anaahat laagee kaho halaal ki-aa kee-aa.

ki-aa ujoo paak kee-aa muhu Dho-i-aa ki-aa maseet sir laa-i-aa.

ja-o dil meh kapat nivaaj gujaarahu ki-aa haj kaabai jaa-i-aa.

tooN naapaak paak nahee soojhi-aa tis kaa maram na jaani-aa.

kahi kabeer bhisat tay chookaa dojak si-o man maani-aa.

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens?

O Mullah, tell me: is this God's Justice?

The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled. Pause

You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay.

The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed?

And what good are your purifications? Why do you bother to wash your face? And why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque?

Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca?

You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know His Mystery.

Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise; your mind is set on hell.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

First point to note is that halaal and bismil, does not mean kill but refers to a specific form of ritual slaughter. Put into context this is a comment on the Muslim sacrifice ritual where either a goat or a chicken is kept in the confines of the home and then ritually slaughtered as obeisance to Abraham. Kabeer is mocking the futility of this ritual and saying, that why are you doing this sacrifice just to emulate Gods asking of Abraham to kill his only son? It is a futile gesture that will not sway God. Abraham was sacrificing his son to God, however all the sacrifice in this instance has achieved is destruction of the outer shell of the chicken. The soul wont travel to God, but merely to another form. One can only understand this if one has a basic grasp of history. In this instance the person who tried to use this tukh as an anti-meat quotation was unaware of the Koranic context and had an extremely poor knowledge of Semitic history.

4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p1374)

Let us add this to the correct context:

oraa gar paanee bha-i-aa jaa-ay mili-o dhal kool.

kabeeraa Dhoor sakayl kai puree-aa baaNDhee dayh.

divas chaar ko paykhnaa ant khayh kee khayh.

kabeer sooraj chaaNd kai udai bha-ee sabh dayh.

gur gobind kay bin milay palat bha-ee sabh khayh.

jah anbha-o tah bhai nahee jah bha-o tah har naahi.

kahi-o kabeer bichaar kai sant sunhu man maahi.

kabeer jinahu kichhoo jaani-aa nahee tin sukh need bihaa-ay.

hamhu jo boojhaa boojhnaa pooree paree balaa-ay.

laagee chot maramm kee rahi-o kabeeraa tha-ur.

kabeer chot suhaylee sayl kee laagat lay-ay usaas.

chot sahaarai sabad kee taas guroo mai daas.

kabeer mulaaN munaaray ki-aa chadheh saaN-ee na bahraa ho-ay.

jaa kaaran tooN baaNg deh dil hee bheetar jo-ay.

saykh sabooree baahraa ki-aa haj kaabay jaa-ay.

kabeer jaa kee dil saabat nahee taa ka-o kahaaN khudaa-ay.

kabeer alah kee kar bandagee jih simrat dukh jaa-ay.

dil meh saaN-ee pargatai bujhai balantee naaN-ay.

kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal.

daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal.

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh Amrit lon.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.

kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap.

harakh sog daajhai nahee tab har aapeh aap.

kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar.

so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar.

kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk.

ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk.

kabeer jaa ghar saaDh na sayvee-ah har kee sayvaa naahi.

tay ghar marhat saarkhay bhoot baseh tin maahi.

kabeer goongaa hoo-aa baavraa bahraa hoo-aa kaan.

paavhu tay pingul bha-i-aa maari-aa satgur baan.

kabeer satgur soormay baahi-aa baan jo ayk.

laagat hee bhu-ay gir pari-aa paraa karayjay chhayk.

kabeer nirmal boond akaas kee par ga-ee bhoom bikaar.

The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean.

Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together.

It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust.

Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.

Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again.

Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there.

Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds.

Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep.

But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles.

Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent.

Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath.

But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave.

Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.

Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers.

Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?

Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord?

Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.

The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name.

Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.

When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?

Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.

Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?

Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.

He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself.

Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.

Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord.

Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.

One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself.

Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served â€"

those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them.

Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf.

I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow.

Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow.

As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart.

Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

At one level this is a mistranslation and at another misrepresentation of the context within which this is written:

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh Amrit lon.

Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.

Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un, means literally, who would cut their own throat to eat food. The person who has tried to translate this has added his/her own spin .What this is actually saying is that to the follower of the Guru or one who has been touched by God a simple dish of Kheechree (lentils and rice), flavoured with salt is enough. To have something more exotic to eat you would not cut your own throat (the western equivalent would be to cut your own nose off to spite your face). In no way is this tukh anything to do with meat eating and the person who has misrepresented and mistranslated it should be held to account for his/her actions.

5.In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p1242)

Again, let us put this into context:

salok mehlaa 1.

kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.

koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar.

jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay.

likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay.

Shalok, First Mehl:

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.

They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.

Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.

Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

At first glance one notices that this paragraph is clearly a metaphor for people who behave like dogs. The dog is a scavenger, hunts in packs, fights within its pack, eats practically anything it can find etc etc. This entire Ang talks about people greed and those that lack honour when they are alive.

The second point to note is the mistranslation. Murdaar is not the word for meat. Murdaar is a reference to people who are dead. In other words people are acting so much like dogs that when people have died they gather round to get as much as they can. A good analogy would be inheritance, where is some instances people try and contest them or try and grab for themselves as much as they can. In India, it has not been unusual to murder siblings of inheritance disputes. In fact the word Murder in the English language has come from the word Murdaar.

6. Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat.

(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24

Let us again see this in context:

sireeraag mehlaa 1 ghar 4.

ayk su-aan du-ay su-aanee naal.

bhalkay bha-ukahi sadaa ba-i-aal.

koorh chhuraa muthaa murdaar.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar.

mai pat kee pand na karnee kee kaar.

ha-o bigrhai roop rahaa bikraal.

tayraa ayk naam taaray sansaar.

mai ayhaa aas ayho aaDhaar. rahaa-o.

mukh nindaa aakhaa din raat.

par ghar johee neech sanaat.

kaam kroDh tan vaseh chandaal.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar.

faahee surat malookee vays.

ha-o thagvaarhaa thagee days.

kharaa si-aanaa bahutaa bhaar.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar.

mai keetaa na jaataa haraamkhor.

ha-o ki-aa muhu daysaa dusat chor.

naanak neech kahai beechaar.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar.

Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House:

The dogs of greed are with me.

In the early morning, they continually bark at the wind.

Falsehood is my dagger; through deception, I eat the carcasses of the dead.

I live as a wild hunter, O Creator!

I have not followed good advice, nor have I done good deeds.

I am deformed and horribly disfigured.

Your Name alone, Lord, saves the world.

This is my hope; this is my support. Pause

With my mouth I speak slander, day and night.

I spy on the houses of others-I am such a wretched low-life!

Unfulfilled sexual desire and unresolved anger dwell in my body, like the outcasts who cremate the dead.

I live as a wild hunter, O Creator!

I make plans to trap others, although I appear gentle.

I am a robber-I rob the world.

I am very clever-I carry loads of sin.

I live as a wild hunter, O Creator!

I have not appreciated what You have done for me, Lord; I take from others and exploit them.

What face shall I show You, Lord? I am a sneak and a thief.

Nanak describes the state of the lowly.

I live as a wild hunter, O Creator!

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Again this is similar to the above translated Shabad. The Guru is clearly making an analogy between people who are acting like dogs. He is even saying that they are barking like dogs.

koorh chhuraa muthaa murdaar.

Falsehood is my dagger; through deception, I eat the carcasses of the dead.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Again Murdaar does not mean meat at all. Murdaar refers to dead people, and how people are literally fighting over one another to get what they think is theirs. They are so consumed with greed and selfishness that they care not for one another, clearly nothing to do with meat eating.

7. Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)

Let us put this last shabad in context with its correct translation:

sireeraag mehlaa 1.

lab kutaa koorh choohrhaa thag khaaDhaa murdaar.

par nindaa par mal mukh suDhee agan kroDh chandaal.

ras kas aap salaahnaa ay karam mayray kartaar.

baabaa bolee-ai pat ho-ay.

ootam say dar ootam kahee-ahi neech karam bahi ro-ay. rahaa-o.

ras su-inaa ras rupaa kaaman ras parmal kee vaas.

ras ghorhay ras sayjaa mandar ras meethaa ras maas.

aytay ras sareer kay kai ghat naam nivaas.

jit boli-ai pat paa-ee-ai so boli-aa parvaan.

fikaa bol viguchnaa sun moorakh man ajaan.

jo tis bhaaveh say bhalay hor ke kahan vakhaan.

tin mat tin pat tin Dhan palai jin hirdai rahi-aa samaa-ay.

tin kaa ki-aa salaahnaa avar su-aali-o kaa-ay.

naanak nadree baahray raacheh daan na naa-ay.

Siree Raag, First Mehl: Greed is a dog; falsehood is a filthy street-sweeper. Cheating is eating a rotting carcass.

Slandering others is putting the filth of others into your own mouth. The fire of anger is the outcaste who burns dead bodies at the crematorium.

I am caught in these tastes and flavors, and in self-conceited praise. These are my actions, O my Creator!

O Baba, speak only that which will bring you honor.

They alone are good, who are judged good at the Lord's Door. Those with bad karma can only sit and weep.

The pleasures of gold and silver, the pleasures of women, the pleasure of the fragrance of sandalwood,

the pleasure of horses, the pleasure of a soft bed in a palace, the pleasure of sweet treats and the pleasure of hearty meals â€"

these pleasures of the human body are so numerous; how can the Naam, the Name of the Lord, find its dwelling in the heart?

Those words are acceptable, which, when spoken, bring honor.

Harsh words bring only grief. Listen, O foolish and ignorant mind!

Those who are pleasing to Him are good. What else is there to be said?

Wisdom, honor and wealth are in the laps of those whose hearts remain permeated with the Lord.

What praise can be offered to them? What other adornments can be bestowed upon them?

O Nanak, those who lack the Lord's Glance of Grace cherish neither charity nor the Lord's Name.

Sry Guru Granth Sahib ji

Again clearly a mistranslation and mischief making on the part of someone who wishes to convey a certain message.

lab kutaa koorh choohrhaa thag khaaDhaa murdaar.

Greed is a dog; falsehood is a filthy street-sweeper. Cheating is eating a rotting carcass.

Sry Guru Granth Sahib ji

Again Murdaar is not Meat but is dead people. The entire Ang is talking about people who fall prey to the 5 thieves, Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar.

MOTIVATIONS BEHIND MISTRANSLATION AND MISREPRESENTATION

There are several reasons behind why these mistranslations and misrepresentations have occurred:

· The publishers have a lack of education and do not understand the meaning of words in Gurmukhi and the correct translation into English.

· In their eagerness to promote their own brand of Sikhism (Sant, Jatha etc) they have deliberately allowed mistranslation and misrepresentation.

· Genuine abhorrence of killing animals can be a motivation too (eg those people that believe in Animal Rights), however Sikhism should not be used as a tool to promote such agendas.

· Poor knowledge of history and the context in which the Gurus and Bhaghats wrotes these Angs is a factor too. This can lead to a misrepresentation.

· In conclusion one can only say that it is very important that Sikh institution promote a clear and concise programme where only those with a certain amount of knowledge in Sikh History and the Sikh Language, should be officially sanctioned as being translators for the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

THE 84 MILLION INCARNATION ARGUMENT - ANIMAL, VEGETABLE, MINERAL.

The other argument that has been made over this issue is that there is some sort of hierarchy of incarnations within Sikhism of incarnations. Life goes through many incarnations (up to 84 million) before becoming human. In other words, life takes the form of incarnation in plant form, then animal, and then human. The idea being that animal form spiritually is closer to man. Biologically this maybe true, however, spiritually within Sikhism, this could not be further from the truth.

On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written:

ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.

ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa.

ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa.

ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o.

ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o.

mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa. chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. rahaa-o.

ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.

ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.

ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.

lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa.

saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat.

kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat.

ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan.

jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan.

avar na doojaa karnai jog.

taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay.

kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay.

Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:

In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;

in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.

In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.

In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse.

Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.

After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. Pause

In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;

in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;

in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;

you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations.

Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.

Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.

Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.

Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord.

Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.

No one else can do anything at all.

We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.

Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Reading this Shabad one can clearly see that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not attach any particular order to how life is incarnated. Infact it states:

ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.

In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;

ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.

in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;

ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.

in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

If you were to apply the logic of those that claim spiritually animal life is closer to human, then according to this a rock then becomes an aborted human foetus, then becomes a plant! It is only after this one becomes human. Surely then a plant is a closer form of life to human?

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only proclaims one life form as being so precious. On page 50 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it states:

sireeraag mehlaa 5 ghar 2.

go-il aa-i-aa go-ilee ki-aa tis damf pasaar.

muhlat punnee chalnaa tooN sampal ghar baar.

har gun gaa-o manaa satgur sayv pi-aar.

ki-aa thorh-rhee baat gumaan. rahaa-o.

jaisay rain paraahunay uth chalsahi parbhaat.

ki-aa tooN rataa girsat si-o sabh fulaa kee baagaat.

mayree mayree ki-aa karahi jin dee-aa so parabh lorh.

sarpar uthee chalnaa chhad jaasee lakh karorh.

lakh cha-oraaseeh bharmati-aa dulabh janam paa-i-o-ay.

naanak naam samaal tooN so din nayrhaa aa-i-o-ay.

Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl, Second House:

The herdsman comes to the pasture lands-what good are his ostentatious displays here?

When your allotted time is up, you must go. Take care of your real hearth and home.

O mind, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and serve the True Guru with love.

Why do you take pride in trivial matters? Pause

Like an overnight guest, you shall arise and depart in the morning.

Why are you so attached to your household? It is all like flowers in the garden.

Why do you say, "Mine, mine?" Look to God, who has given it to you.

It is certain that you must arise and depart, and leave behind your hundreds of thousands and millions.

Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this rare and precious human life.

O Nanak, remember the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the day of departure is drawing near!

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

So clearly, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji sees plants, animals, and minerals, on one level in terms of life, and then human form on another. To take the life of a plant is the same as an animal in terms of spirituality. The following Shabad although a metaphor for how people who speak the truth are treated, clearly shows the mind of the Guru’s when seeing life in all its form, be it plant, mineral or animal:

Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.

vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.

khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.

ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.

bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.

naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.

First Mehl:

Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,

and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.

What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.

And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.

Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

The folly of the argument that spiritually one is committing a bigger sin when killing an animal than a plant is a foolish one. The biological argument is a different one and is not tackled within the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, but that in itself shows, the choice of whether or not to eat meat is a personal one and has nothing to do with the Sikh religion.

MEAT EATERS, ONLY EAT FOR TASTE OR DO VEGETARIANS AS WELL?

The most absurd argument that has been come across is that meat eaters only eat for taste, and too satisfy their taste buds. It is a selfish desire in other words, based on Greed and Egotism. The basis of this argument falls down with the fact that Vegetarian dishes (particularly on the Indian Subcontinent), are the most varied and most tasty of all dishes. To say that a vegetarian hates every mouthful of eating an Aubergine and Potatoes Curry and a meat eater loves every mouthful of Liver is indeed the weakest of all arguments. In fact page 61 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji states:

jit tan naam na bhaav-ee tit tan ha-umai vaad.

gur bin gi-aan na paa-ee-ai bikhi-aa doojaa saad.

bin gun kaam na aavee maa-i-aa feekaa saad.

aasaa andar jammi-aa aasaa ras kas khaa-ay.

That body which does not appreciate the Naam-that body is infested with egotism and conflict.

Without the Guru, spiritual wisdom is not obtained; other tastes are poison.

Without virtue, nothing is of any use. The taste of Maya is bland and insipid.

Through desire, people are cast into the womb and reborn. Through desire, they taste the sweet and sour flavors.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

MEAT EATING PROMOTES DEVIANT BEHAVIOUR OR DOES IT?

There is a train of thought amongst certain Sikhs that meat eating promotes cruel, aggressive or lustful behaviour. There have been numerous examples to show that this is simply not true. For example Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian, yet he was very cruel. In terms of aggressive behaviour, we have our own Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwala, who was a staunch vegetarian, yet very aggressive. The Kukas (Namdharia’s), were very violent and aggressive yet were strict vegetarians. As for lustful behaviour, one only has too look at the list of A list celebrities who are vegetarians and note their lustful behaviour.

This argument is a ridiculous one and is not mentioned anywhere within the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It is true however, many vegetarians do suffer from anaemia (lack of iron), and this causes tiredness (and therefore probably more passive behaviour), however, this is again outside the scope of this essay.

HUKAMNAMA ALLEGED TO HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY THE 6TH MASTER

Some pro-vegetarian sections of the Sikh following have produced an alleged Hukamnama that states that the Sikhs of the East were not to go near meat. Unfortunately, the sources that have produced this Hukamnama, have not been able to back it up with any evidence of its genuineness, from any Sikh scholars of note. There have been statements to the effect that Ganda Singh found this document and indeed published it (Two collections of Hukamnamas are available in print form, one edited by Dr. Ganda Singh published in 1968 by Punjabi University and the S.G.P.C), but this has not been verified by any of his contemporaries or any other Sikh scholars..

Historical evidence, in fact contradicts what Guru Hargobind ji was actually like. He was an avid hunter and warrior. Again this fact some have tried to dismiss as Guruji giving Mukhti to animals souls. This, however, contradicts the Guru’s own philosophy which clearly states that only God is capable of granting such things.

Infact Bhai Gudas in his Vars States:

Just as one has to tie pail's neck while taking out water

,

Just as to get Mani, snake is to be killed

Just as to get Kasturi from deer's neck, deer is to be killed

Just as to get oil, oil seeds are to be crushed

To get kernel, pomegranate is to be broken

Similarly to correct senseless people, sword has to be taken up.

Bhai Gurdas, Var-34, pauri 13

In fact such a hukamna would indeed contradict the one Guru Gobind Singh ji sent to his Sikhs in Kabul (ADVANCED STUDIES IN SIKHISM by Jasbir Singh and Harbans Singh.):

"Sarbat sangat Kabul Guru rakhe ga

Tusa ute asaadee bahut khusi hai

Tusi Khande da Amrit Panja to lena

Kes rakhne...ih asadee mohur hair;

Kachh, Kirpan da visah nahee karna

SARB LOH da kara hath rakhna

Dono vakat kesa dee palna karna

Sarbat sangat abhakhia da kutha

Khave naheen, Tamakoo na vartana

Bhadni tatha kanya-maran-vale so mel na rakhe

Meene, Massandei, Ramraiye ki sangat na baiso

Gurbani parhni...Waheguru, Waheguru japna

Guru kee rahat rakhnee

Sarbat sangat oopar meri khushi hai.

Patshahi Dasvi

Jeth 26, Samat 1756

To the entire sangat at Kabul.

The Guru will protect the Sangat,

I am pleased with you all.

You should take baptism by the sword, from the Five Beloveds.

Keep your hair uncut for this is a seal of the Guru,

Accept the use of shorts and a sword.

Always wear IRON KARA on your wrist,

Keep your hair clean and comb it twice a day.

Do not eat Halal (Kosher) meat,

Do not use tobacco in any form,

Have no connection with those who kill their daughters

Or permit the cutting of their children's hair.

Do not associate with Meenas, Massands and Ram-raiyas (anti-Sikh cults)

Recite the Guru's hymns

Meditate on "The Name of our Wonderful Lord",

Follow the Sikh code of discipline

I give the entire sangat my blessing)

Signature of 10th Guru

Jeth 26, 1756 Bikrami 23rd May 1699 A.D

As we know, there is no contradiction in the Guru’s message.

It should be noted also that there are a number of Hukamnama’s that have been found that also purport Sikhs to adopt Brahmanical religious tenets.

WHAT ARE THE VIEWS OF PROMINENT Sikh SCHOLARS ON THIS ISSUE?

Misconceptions About Eating Meat - Comments of Sikh Scholars

Throughout Sikh history, there have been movements or subsects of Sikhism which have espoused vegetarianism. I think there is no basis for such dogma or practice in Sikhism. Certainly Sikhs do not think that a vegetarian's achievements in spirituality are easier or higher. It is surprising to see that vegetarianism is such an important facet of Hindu practice in light of the fact that animal sacrifice was a significant and much valued Hindu Vedic ritual for ages. Guru Nanak in his writings clearly rejected both sides of the arguments - on the virtues of vegetarianism or meat eating - as banal and so much nonsense, nor did he accept the idea that a cow was somehow more sacred than a horse or a chicken. He also refused to be drawn into a contention on the differences between flesh and greens, for instance. History tells us that to impart this message, Nanak cooked meat at an important Hindu festival in Kurukshetra. Having cooked it he certainly did not waste it, but probably served it to his followers and ate himself. History is quite clear that Guru Hargobind and Guru Gobind Singh were accomplished and avid hunters. The game was cooked and put to good use, to throw it away would have been an awful waste.

Sikhs and Sikhism by I.J. Singh, Manohar, Delhi

The ideas of devotion and service in Vaishnavism have been accepted by Adi Granth, but the insistence of Vaishnavas on vegetarian diet has been rejected.

Guru Granth Sahib, An Analytical Study by Surindar Singh Kohli, Singh Bros. Amritsar

Commenting on meat being served in the langar during the time of Guru Angad: However, it is strange that now-a-days in the Community-Kitchen attached to the Sikh temples, and called the Guru's Kitchen (or, Guru-ka-langar) meat-dishes are not served at all. May be, it is on account of its being, perhaps, expensive, or not easy to keep for long. Or, perhaps the Vaishnava tradition is too strong to be shaken off.

A History of the Sikh People by Dr. Gopal Singh, World Sikh University Press, Delhi

As a true Vaisnavite Kabir remained a strict vegetarian. Kabir far from defying Brahmanical tradition as to the eating of meat, would not permit so much, as the plucking of a flower (G.G.S. pg 479), whereas Nanak deemed all such scruples to be superstitions, Kabir held the doctrine of Ahinsa or the non-destruction of life, which extended even to that of flowers. The Sikh Gurus, on the contrary, allowed and even encouraged, the use of animal flesh as food. Nanak has exposed this Ahinsa superstition in Asa Ki War (G.G.S. pg 472) and Malar Ke War (G.G.S. pg. 1288).

Philosophy of Sikhism by Gyani Sher Singh (Ph.D), Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee. Amritsar

The Gurus were loath to pronounce upon such matters as the eating of meat or ways of disposing of the dead because undue emphasis on them could detract from the main thrust of their message which had to do with spiritual liberation. However, Guru Nanak did reject by implication the practice of vegetarianism related to ideas of pollution when he said, 'All food is pure; for God has provided it for our sustenance' (AG 472). Many Sikhs are vegetarian and meat should never be served at langar. Those who do eat meat are unlikely to include beef in their diet, at least in India, because of their cultural proximity to Hindus.

A Popular Dictionary of Sikhism, W.Owen Cole and Piara Singh Sambhi, England

In general Sikhism has adopted an ambivalent attitude towards meat eating as against vegetarianism. But if meat is to be taken at all, Guru Gobind Singh enjoined on the Khalsa Panth not to take kosher meat ie. Halal meat slaughtered and prepared for eating according to the Islamic practice. In fact it is one of the kurahits for every amritdhari Sikh. One who infringes it becomes patit (apostate).

Sikhism, A Complete Introduction by Dr. H.S. Singha and Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press, Delhi

A close study of the above-mentioned hymns of Guru Nanak Dev clarifies the Sikh standpoint regarding meat-eating. The Guru has not fallen into the controversy of eating or not eating animal food. He has ridiculed the religious priests for raising their voice in favour of vegetarianism. He called them hypocrites and totally blind to the realities of life. They are unwise and thoughtless persons, who do not go into the root of the matter. According to him, the water is the source of all life whether vegetable or animal. Guru Nanak Dev said. "None of the grain of corn is without life. In the first place, there is life in water, by which all are made green" (Var Asa M.1, p. 472). Thus there is life in vegetation and life in all types of creatures.

Real Sikhism by Surinder Singh Kohli, Harman Publishing, New Delhi

The Gurus neither advocate meat nor banned its use. They left it to the choice of the individual. There are passages against meat, in the Adi Granth. Guru Gobind Singh however prohibited for the Khalsa the use of Halal or Kutha meat prepared in the Muslim ritualistic way.

Introduction to Sikhism by Dr. Gobind Singh Mansukhani, Hemkunt Press, Delhi

Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8828 (Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh)

There are no restrictions for the Sikhs regarding food, except that the Sikhs are forbidden to eat meat prepared as a ritual slaughter. The Sikhs are asked to abstain from intoxicants.

Introduction to Sikhism by G.S. Sidhu, Shromini Sikh Sangat, Toronto

According to the Maryada booklet 'Kutha', the meat prepared by the Muslim ritual, is prohibited for a Sikh. Regarding eating other meat, it is silent. From the prohibition of the Kutha meat, it is rightly presumed that non-Kutha meat is not prohibited for the Sikhs. Beef is prohibited to the Hindus and pork to the Muslims. Jews and Christians have their own taboos. They do not eat certain kinds of meat on certain days. Sikhs have no such instructions. If one thinks he needs to eat meat, it does not matter which meat it is, beef, poultry, fish, etc., or which day it is. One should, however, be careful not to eat any meat harmful for his health. Gurbani's instructions on this topic are very clear. "Only fools argue whether to eat meat or not. Who can define what is meat and what is not meat? Who knows where the sin lies, being a vegetarian or a non-vegetarian?" (1289) The Brahmanical thought that a religious person should be a vegetarian is of recent origin. Earlier, Brahmans had been eating beef and horse meat. In conclusion, it is wrong to say that any person who eats meat (of course Kutha, because of the Muslim rituals is prohibited) loses his membership of the Khalsa and becomes an apostate.

The Sikh Faith by Gurbakhsh Singh, Canadian Sikh Study and Teaching Society, Vancouver

The above discussion leads us to the conclusion that the Sikh Gurus made people aware of the fact that it is very difficult to distinguish between a plant and an animal, therefore, it is difficult to distinguish between a vegetarian and a non-vegetarian diets and there is no sin of eating food originating from plants or animals.

Scientific Interpretation of Gurbani, Paper by Dr. Devinder Singh Chahal

The practice of the Gurus is uncertain. Guru Nanak seems to have eaten venison or goat, depending upon different janamsakhi versions of a meal which he cooked at Kurukshetra which evoked the criticism of Brahmins. Guru Amardas ate only rice and lentils but this abstention cannot be regarded as evidence of vegetarianism, only of simple living. Guru Gobind Singh also permitted the eating of meat but he prescribed that it should be Jhatka meat and not Halal meat that is jagged in the Muslim fashion.

Mini Encyclopaedia of Sikhism by H.S. Singha, Hemkunt Press, Delhi.

THE KUTTHA MEAT ARGUMENT - KUTTHA MEANS ALL MEAT OR DOES IT?

What is Kuttha meat?

Punjabi-English Dictionary, Punjabi University, Dept. of Punjabi Lexicography, Published Dec. 1994. "Kuttha: meat of animal or fowl slaughtered slowly as prescribed by Islamic law."

Punjabi English Dictionary, Singh Bros., Amritsar "Kuttha: Tortured, killed according to Mohammedan law."

In the Rehit Marayada (http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html), Section Six, it states:

The undermentioned four transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided

1. Dishonouring the hair;

2. Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way(Kutha);

3. Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse

4. Using tobacco.

Sikh Rehit Maryada

There have been some quarters who have been at pains to create confusion over the word Kuttha. There is no confusion over this word, and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is proof of this.

In the following Ang Guru Nanak condemns Brahmins, who serve their Muslim rulers stating they are acting like pseudo-Muslims. In this Ang there is a line which clearly refers to Kuttha as meat which has had Muslim prayers read over it. Kuttha, however, can meat any meat that is killed in a ritualistic manner.

mehlaa 1.

maanas khaanay karahi nivaaj

.

chhuree vagaa-in tin gal taag.

tin ghar barahman pooreh naad.

unHaa bhe aavahi o-ee saad.

koorhee raas koorhaa vaapaar.

koorh bol karahi aahaar.

saram Dharam kaa dayraa door.

naanak koorh rahi-aa bharpoor.

mathai tikaa tayrh Dhotee kakhaa-ee.

hath chhuree jagat kaasaa-ee.

neel vastar pahir hoveh parvaan.

malaychh Dhaan lay poojeh puraan.

abhaakhi-aa kaa kuthaa bakraa khaanaa.

cha-ukay upar kisai na jaanaa.

day kai cha-ukaa kadhee kaar.

upar aa-ay baithay koorhi-aar.

mat bhitai vay mat bhitai.

ih ann asaadaa fitai.

tan fitai fayrh karayn.

man joothai chulee bharayn.

kaho naanak sach Dhi-aa-ee-ai.

such hovai taa sach paa-ee-ai.

First Mehl:

The man-eaters say their prayers.

Those who wield the knife wear the sacred thread around their necks.

In their homes, the Brahmins sound the conch.

They too have the same taste.

False is their capital, and false is their trade.

Speaking falsehood, they take their food.

The home of modesty and Dharma is far from them.

O Nanak, they are totally permeated with falsehood. The sacred marks are on their foreheads, and the saffron loin-cloths are around their waists;

in their hands they hold the knives - they are the butchers of the world!

Wearing blue robes, they seek the approval of the Muslim rulers.

Accepting bread from the Muslim rulers, they still worship the Puraanas.

They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them,

but they do not allow anyone else to enter their kitchen areas.

They draw lines around them, plastering the ground with cow-dung.

The false come and sit within them.

They cry out, "Do not touch our food,

this food of ours will be polluted!

But with their polluted bodies, they commit evil deeds.

With filthy minds, they try to cleanse their mouths.

Says Nanak, meditate on the True Lord.

If you are pure, you will obtain the True Lord.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Hence, it is clear that Kutha does not mean all meat at all, it means specifically Halal Meat, but in the wider context it can mean meat that is ritually slaughtered.

AN Amrit-DHARI DOES NOT EAT MEAT OR DOES HE?

This clearly a falicy, since the rules that guide and Amritdhari are from the Rehit-Marayada, which places no taboo on meat eating.

EYE WITNESS ACCOUNTS OF EUROPEAN TRAVELLERS OF Sikh DIET DURING THE 18TH AND 19TH CENTURY

There are a number of eyewitness accounts from European travellers as to the eating habits of Sikhs. Although there is no prohibition on Sikhs for eating beef, it is clear that Sikhs as a mark of respect for their Hindu neighbours did not partake in eating beef:

The Seiks receive Proselytes of almost every Cast, a point in which they differ most materially from the Hindoos. To initiate Mohammedans into their mysteries, they prepare a Dish of Hogs legs, which the Converts are obliged to partake of, previous to admission............They are not prohibited the use of Animal food of any kind, excepting Beef, which they are rigidly scrupulous in abstaining from.

John Griffiths writes in February 17th 1794

The seiks are remarkably fond of the flesh of the jungle hog, which they kill in chase: this food is allowable by their law. They likewise eat of mutton and fish; but these being unlawful the Brahmins will not partake, leaving those who chose to transgress their institutes to answer for themselves.

William Francklin in his writing about Mr George Thomas 1805

It is clear from the above that there is a clear distinction between Sikhs (meat eaters), and those who chose to follow Brahmanical practices (Vegetarians), however there appears to be no dispute over this issue as people are allowed to decide for themselves.

The following is an Extract from an officer in the Bengal Army and is taken from the Asiatic Annual Register 1809:

Now become a Singh, he is a heterodox, and distinct from the Hindoos by whom he is considered an apostate. He is not restricted in his diet, but is allowed, by the tenets of his new religion, to devour whatever food his appetite may prompt, excepting beef.

Asiatic Annual Register 1809

Clearly, this gives us an idea that even independent observers of Sikhs who saw their eating habits. These Sikhs were around some 100 years after the demise of the last physical Sikh Guru and represented hardcore Sikh philosophy at that time.

WHY MEAT IS NOT SERVED IN LANGAR

The reason why meat is not served at langar in the Gurdwaras is because langar is supposed to be a symbol of equality of mankind where all people no matter what race, religion or caste can eat together in the atmosphere of brotherhood. Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, it does not matter who they are. Different religions have different dietary restrictions. Hindus cannot eat cow, muslims cannot eat pork and will only eat halal meat. Jews will only eat kosher meat, others cannot eat fish or eggs. But in a gurdwara langar, it does not matter what their dietary taboos or religious beliefs are, the food is designed so that all can eat together and no one will be offended or not be able to partake of the meal.

WHY JHATKA MEAT?

What is Jhatka Meat and Why?

Jhatka meat is meat in which the animal has been killed quickly without suffering or religious ritual.

We must give the rationale behind prescribing jhatka meat as the approved food for the Sikhs. According to the ancient Aryan Hindu tradition, only such meat as is obtained from an animal which is killed with one stroke of the weapon causing instantaneous death is fit for human consumption. However, with the coming of Islam into India and the Muslim political hegemony, it became a state policy not to permit slaughter of animals for food, in any other manner, except as laid down in the Quran - the kosher meat prepared by slowly severing the main blood artery of the throat of the animal while reciting verses from the Quran. It is done to make slaughter a sacrifice to God and to expiate the sins of the slaughter. Guru Gobind Singh took a rather serious view of this aspect of the whole matter. He, therefore, while permitting flesh to be taken as food repudiated the whole theory of this expiatory sacrifice and the right of ruling Muslims to impose iton the non-Muslims. Accordingly, he made jhatka meat obligatory for those Sikhs who may be interested in taking meat as a part of their food.

Sikhism, A Complete Introduction, Dr. H.S.Singha & Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press

And one semitic practice clearly rejected in the Sikh code of conduct is eating flesh of an animal cooked in ritualistic manner; this would mean kosher and halal meat. The reason again does not lie in religious tenet but in the view that killing an animal with a prayer is not going to enoble the flesh. No ritual, whoever conducts it, is going to do any good either to the animal or to the diner. Let man do what he must to assuage his hunger. If what he gets, he puts to good use and shares with the needy, then it is well used and well spent, otherwise not.

Sikhs and Sikhism, Dr. I.J.Singh, Manohar Publishers.

THE FINAL AUTHORITY

Guru Nanak Devji tackled this entire issue head on and rubbished the claims of so called spiritual people who thought themselves more pious and religious simply because they did not eat meat.

Page 1289 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.

maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.

ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.

gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay.

maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.

farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai.

naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai.

anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee.

maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee.

First Mehl:

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.

What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.

Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.

They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.

O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.

They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.

They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

This Shabad specifically deals with the arguments that rage today about spirituality and meat eating. The purpose of this essay, stated in the beginning is not to look at meat eatings pros and cons in terms of the wider biological debate, but to look at I terms of Sikhism and spirituality. As Sikh, one should be concerned with getting into the triviality of such worthless debates and certainly one should not mistranslate, or misrepresent the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to back up a certain point of view.

OTHER EVIDENCE

There have always been vegetarian Sikhs, and there have always been Meat eating Sikhs and the two groups have happily sat together and consumed a mutually acceptable Vegetarian Langar side by side. So why in the 20th and 21st Century has this issue caused so much debate and controversy?

This maybe traced back to the Times of the British Raj and encouragement of recruitment of Sikhs into the British Army. Many new converts to Sikhism came into the fold, many of whom still practiced Hindu Vaishnav practices of strict vegetarianism.

This need to cause division amongst Sikhs may even be traced earlier. In Mobad Dabistan-I Mazahib 1645-46, the author states:

Many person became his disciples. Nanak believed in the Oneness of God and in the way that it is asserted in Muhammadan theology. He also believed in transmigration of souls. Holding wine and pork to be unlawful, he had [himself] abandoned eating meat. He decreed avoidance of causing harm to animals. It was after his time that meat-eating spread amongst his followers. Arjan Mal, who was on of his lineal succesors, found this to be evil. He prohibited people from eating meat, saying This is not in accordance with Nanaks wishes. Later, Hargobind, son of Arjan Mal, ate meat and took to hunting. Most of their [the Gurus] followers adopted his practice.

Mobad Dabistan-I Mazahib 1645-46

Now clearly we know the message of the Guru’s was uniform. It was not that they contradicted each other on issues such as meat eating. If some of this authors writings are to be believed as factual, then one can only conclude that some of the Guru’s were indeed vegetarian and some meat eaters, but it was not an issue that mattered to them or which they attached importance to. The author in this instance has liberally applied his own thoughts in order to show a contradiction amongst the Sikh Guru’s teaching and possibly a mean to exploit division. There was no contradiction in Sikh thought from the First Master to the Last.

That's an interesting avatar you have Randip Singh. Welcome to the forum

The Sikh soldiers are serving in Africa in my Avtar. Is it showing now, I still cannot see it?

I am glad the forum is up and it stay popular.

I really hope it does not become a flame fest like sikhsangat.

I spend most of my time on www.sikhphilosophy.net, but would be interested in keeping ties here too.

Thanks

Randip Singh

Good points

Yes exactly my point , they can't defend them selves or make a noise , so how would we know / or have a sense of guilt that our actions are causing harm, whereas apply the same to an animal , it will defintely try to defend it self and make a noise ( hey don't kill me man or something ) which surely tells us don't kill it unless we are being attacked and are defending ourselves.

what i am trying to ascertain is that , when certain level of praying and meditation is reached , the " less of" becomes zero in terms of eating flesh

Also do you think for example , if you slaugtered and animal , cooked it /fried it or whetever then ate it , and after that did meditation/prayers

would be o.k ?

We could go into the ethics of meat eating...animals running...plants not...plants poisoning people to avoid being eaten etc etc.....etc etc............but that has nothing to do with the Spiritual case made by the 10 Nanaks. This essay has anniihalated the falacy that spirituality is connected to whether you eat carrots or chicken or both within Sikhism.

Have a think about this:

Page 131 Jagjit Singh - The Dynamics Of the Sikh Revolution (Institute of Sikh Studies Chandigarh):

Guru Nanak expressed his view about ahimsa in a long hymn, wherein he emphasised the whole life process has a common source. No animal is possible without the use of flesh in one form or the other. He ridicules the fallecy of those who make a fetish of the question of eating meating but have no scruples in "devouring" (exploiting) men. He points out that all distinctions between non-vegetarian food being impure and vegetarian food being pure are arbitary, because the source of life is the same element.

read the rest...it is fascinating.

Lets be clear what we mean by Lust.

Lust or Kaam is an unhealthy obsession with sex. It is like an alcoholics addiction to alcohol.

Don't confuse them with normal biological instincts. Its not a sin or a crime to have these thoughts.

Now if you feel it is Kaam....maybe you need to use that excessive energy in another way. Join a Gym, learn martial arts etc.