SikhKhoj

Yes, but I think you are more interested in discussing the non Punjabi Sikhs, right? Still interesting though.

I have also only heard it from Taksali Kathavachaks & recent DDT publications about it but it does fit in the perspective once we know about the existence of an Arabic Sikh community and people who have seen Arabic Japji Sahibs first hand. But sadly no older sources to confirm this. Persian one is interesting but I don't think Iranian Sikh communities existed. But since Persian was an official language in many places for a long time, it could've been done with the purpose of making the GGS more accessible to the scholars etc.

During the times of the Gurus and early period after (till about Baba Deep Singh) contacts were maintained with the Sangats established by Guru Nanak throughout the world. There were Gurdwaras in far away places like the Arab countries, Uzbekistan, Nepal and the east (Assam etc). The arabic bir supposedly prepared by Baba Deep Singh could not have been for Punjabi Sikhs living in Arab lands, that does not make sense. It was most perhaps for the Arab Sikhs living there. Sayed Prithipal Singh talks about an Arabic Japji he saw in Arabia. Our historical sources talk about Gurdwaras sponsored by local Muslim rulers in Arabia. I think somewhere between the period of severe persecution (Ghallugharas) contacts were slowly lost, so till the 20th century only small communities of Arabic, Iraqi & other non Punjabi Sikhs survived, which by now might have completely vanished. Just because there were over a 100 Arabic Sikh families in 1930 does not mean that the numbers of Arabic Sikhs was always insignificant, Arabic sources discovered by Syed Prithipal talk about significant proportions of Arabs adopting Sikhi during and just after Guru Nanaks visits. If Qazi Rukn Deen could've been persecuted, just imagine what would've happened to other Arabic Sikhs?

There is no source to back this up by Ahmadis claim Guru Nanak had 20 million followers all over when they left their body.

Neo, can you move the last few posts regarding Guru Tegh Bahadur & rebellion to another topic? Dhanvaad.

​Believe me, alot more than 2%.

Didn't read it correctly. An unpublished manuscript in Punjabi confirms what the Marathi source of 1793 says.

Early Satnami literature does exist, so most of our questions can be answered by a reading of those Granths. Don't know if translations exist though.

No comment on the Udasi aspect. The Mughal sources are often biased but if we take Satnami rebellion and some other sources which project Guru Tegh Bahadur as shasterdhari with fauj in consideration there might be some truth to it. I think you are being mistaken about Shivaji and Guru Hargobind. Shivaji was only an early teenager when Guru Hargobind joti jot happened. Altough the meeting could've happened, our sources only talk of Shivajis teacher Samrath Ramdas meeting Guru Ji. Some say Guru Ji gifted a sword for infant Shivaji at that occassion but don't know how true that is.

Maybe the story about Guru Tegh Bahadurs rebellion found in some Muslim sources are true after all? Because I have till date always discarded an old source which says the Guru had thousands of soldiers. The natural question that arose and subsequently went against that claim is why the Guru was not liberated during his captivity? But if the soldiers in questions were the Satnamis that means the Guru was martyred after a large section of the Sikh fighting force was killed in action with the remainders being forced to flee to the jungles of central India (present day Chattisgarh and Jharkhand). Create another topic about this amardeep.

Just like Shivajis teacher met Guru Hargobind, the leader of the Satnamis did meet Guru Tegh Bahadur. But whether the rebellion had any support from the Guru is not known till now.

Indeed. But I would like to be cautious when making such links, because sometimes we get overexcited and I've seen some of our people link Shivaji & Dullah to Guru Hargobind without any concrete evidence. Research is needed.

Regarding the Satnamis I have also read conflicting statements. But some years ago puratan birs of Guru Granth Sahib were found in some of their villages. So it is highly possible that they were Nanakpanthis and lost touch with Sikhi overtime. It is funny how we have lost so many Sikhs due to our sheer neglect.

Paapi, create another topic if you wish to discuss the current shortcomings in our Panth. This topic is on the historical aspect.

Padam edited it way too much.

Yes, the society translates old Granths, they in need of donations. Lets get in touch with them?

- Alwar used to have Brahmin Sikhs (native Rajasthanis) with Gurdwaras in their villages. Slowly they merged back into Hinduism and the Gurdwaras are collapsing. - The current 15-25 million Vanjaras used to be Sikh at a point of time. (source: my personal talks with NGO dealing with these forgotten Sikh tribes). Unlike Sikligars they are cleanshaven but conduct marriages by singing 'Nanak Nanak' for example. We neglected them, Muslims and Christians saw opportunity and converted many of them. Waheguru willing more organisations like Akhar Soh, Nishkam Canada, British Sikh Society will rise and help millions of these lost Sikhs who are not counted in the census.

Christians see (Nepal) disasters as an opportunity to spread gospel of Jesus Christ. Muslims see weak people and opress & convert them. We see the poor and do nishkam seva without asking them to convert, and instead of opressing the weak, we defend them as taught by our Gurus. This might work against us in demographics but in characters all these religions look weak in front of Sikhi.

Very important and interesting quote from 1969 by SS Kohli.

We have to talk about Sikhs here and there, the number of sangats per state because we simply do not have demographics. Dabistan says this: "ln short during the time of each Mahal (Guru) the Sikh increased till in the reign of Guru Arjan Mal they became numerous and there were not many cities in the inhabited countries where some Sikh were not to be found." It is an important statement. It does say 'some' Sikhs but also 'countries'. ​There were many, thats the only thing we can conclude safely from the many Sangats established all over India. The Sangats established by Guru Nanak and later the Manjis were quite widespread, information is available about many but many have since been converted into temples and other things. SS Kohli who visited nearly whole of India in the footsteps of Guru Nanaks udasis met lacs of Nanakpanthis all over India in the 1960s. I'll be posting a quote soon. Invalid point. Starting in the 8th century, Muslims invaded and raped the Indian subcontinent for centuries. Despite 800 years of brutalities only 30-35% of the Indian population is Muslim (if you count India, Pak and Bangladesh). So just because it took 3-5 centuries for Iran or Syria to convert, you can not conclude that it wasn't mostly force.

The non Sikh sources do not confirm the Raja Shiv Nabh, the name seems to be more of a description (King who was devotee of Shiv?). But absence of non Sikh sources should not be taken as a definite proof that this did not happen. There existed a tablet in the name of Guru Nanak (memory of his visit) till last century but it has since dissapeared apparently. But I don't have many reasons to doubt it, many rulers converted during the times of Guru Nanak-Gobind Singh. Raja Rattan who gifted the elephant to Guru Gobind Singh was a Sikh since 4 generations (since Guru Nanak), another royal family near Katihar (Bihar) also had a Gurdwara in their palace, Bhagat Peepa was a king... Ofcourse just because many kings became Guru's disciples it does not mean Shiv Nabh did too (or if he even existed).

It happened all over the world, descendants did 'convert' back to their original faith in many cases. The most obvious and undeniable example are the many Sindhis who, especially after partition, have become mainstream Hindus instead of Nanakpanthis. Ofcourse the few Nanakpanthi Sindhis still exist with idols of Guru Nanak or Maharaj Parkash. If it can happen in India, near our nucleus Punjab, then it could've definitely happened in far off lands like Sri Lanka. Perhaps as Nanakpanthis they're sense of 'seperateness' was not as great as in the Khalsa (niarapan) thus they slowly merged back with the dominant religion of those areas or their ancestors.

​Brother actually there was a queen who converted at the time of Guru Nanak Maharaaj, her name was Gurjan. Rattan Rai, the king who gifted the elephant was her great grandson. So technically they were Sikhs since Guru Nanaks time.

1. Post 20th century the Singh Sabha mindset has hurt the 'Sikh' numbers by sidelining and ignoring the Sehajdharis and Nanakpanthis. For example: There was a time when nearly all non Muslim Sindhis were Nanakpanthis, but the radicalisation post Singh Sabha made them move away. Ofcourse many of them also venerated Jhule Lal besides Guru Nanak Ji but still. Years ago I was also shocked at the 2001 census having only 20k Sikhs for Bihar, the birth place of Guru Gobind Singh. But since I have discovered that Bihar once had a quite significant population of Sikhs (Nanakpanthis), which withered due to our own neglect and partly the Udasi sadhus 'reverting' to Hinduism post SGPC to prevent their Dharamshalas from getting under SGPC control. Even today some indigenous Sikhs of Bihar can be found near Lakhmipur and other areas visited by Guru Tegh Bahadur. 2. I also used to believe that most Sikhs inhabiting foreign countries were of Punjabi descent, but I think a critical reading of the Janamsakhis is needed to ascertain this. The person who gave the elephant to Guru Gobind Singh Ji was a native Assami King, his ancestors having converted at the times of Guru Nanak. The Raja Shivnabh of Sri Lanka also converted. More than a hundred Nanakpanthi native Arab families existed in 1930, Sikh since Guru Nanaks times (source: Mushtaq Hussain alias Prithpal Singh). Remember Salas Rai Johri the jeweller? His descendants are Nanakpanthis but in dire need of parchaar just like many other tribes and people but our SGPC is doing nothing, in a few generations they will also be back to Hinduism. Bihar used to have above 300 Dharamshalas, all with native Bihari Sikhs, such as Bhai Bhagwan during Guru Har Rais time (ex Buddhist). While one may not take this statement too seriously but the Dabistan also talks of Sikhs living in most corners of the world. But you could argue that it talked of Punjabi Sikhs, which I doubt but fair enough. 3. So from the above we can assume that lots of non Punjabi Sikhs used to exist. But where did they all go? a) reverted back over generations due to lack of parchaar, just as we are seeing right now with Johris. b) many of them were not in Khalsa form and thus were neglected 4. We did not forcibly convert others. While forcing is the un Sikh way, I wish more was done to convert non Sikhs during the Misl and Ranjit Singh Kaal, but sadly we are too secular... We are even butt hurt at ex Sikh Christians returning back to Sikhi to avoid political disturbances in Punjab. This explains why we are only 10-20% of the total Punjabi population. 5. Indian census is not reliable, they do not count poor tribal Sikhs as Sikhs, who are atleast 2-3 million in number. Search for Sikligar, Vanjara, Lobana, Johri, etc.

Weren't you eager to help with getting a Sikh book translated? Lets get in touch with the society?