HSD1

Welcome, it's always great to see people ask questions and want to know more. As well as meditation, there are many English translations of SGGS ji available on the internet that would be useful to read at your own pace and help you build faith.

What else is it about the SIkh way of life that interests you and that you wish to incorporate into your life?

So where do we go from here? I guess someone's going to have to contact them and see what's going on.

Do you think it's worth contacting UK Sikh bodies as they werent mentioned in the article? A lot of people dont know about this. That article is from 3 years ago, it seems not a lot has been done for restoration. I hope the PGPC arent just after tourist cash.

Oh really, I thought the PGPC were still in charge? So why cant it be reformed if it did so well back then? They could organise this and channel funds, ask for specific help and bring people in from other parts of Pakistan. The old members cant all have died off. Is really just about lack of funds?

I wont take anything personally but I want you to think about what I say. There is no malice, I am trying to cover all the corners here.

You mention Gen. Zia but bare in mind he only moved Sikhs to Punjab as he needed Sikhs to control Gurdwaras and take them off SGPC hands. It was all political and with the blessing of the Pak govt. So how are you planning on getting the Pak govt on side?

They may want to move but can they really just upsticks and move? How does this work in Pakistan? Will they have to reregister in Punjab? Will they be willing to live in Gurdwaras till accomodation can be found locally? If you know a lot about Pakistan then tell us more.

If there is enough public feeling about restoring these places, the Badals and SGPC will come round. PSGPC are as much pets of the Pak govt as the SGPC are of the Badals. That's why they hate them, they feel they were screwed over. Ultimately neither are doing Sikhi or Sikhs any favours.

I know that most Gurdwaras are lying in ruins, my family came from West Punjab before 1947. I know that rebuilding them properly is going to be no easy task either. Look at the photos above, some are literally ruins. A slapdash job is just going to reflect the bad way we've looked after Gurdwaras in other places. Read my post on the first page to see what I mean about restoration.

I dont think it's worth comparing Hindu mobs to mujahideen or other muslims. Completely different. Security has to be taken seriously. We cant just say it'll be alright if we do this. Do you think it's worth writing to the Pak embassy or local MPs to twist the arms of the Pak govt to provide proper security to these places? Otherwise it will be like Afghanistan all over again. Dont forget that NATO will leave in a few months time and fighting will probably spread over to Pakistan.

1. East Punjab govt will do nothing, face it. Stop thinking East Punjab govt will do something or anything. Think about something you can do on own initiative.

2. Yes Sindhi Sikhs can look after Sindh Gurdwaras. Moving is not a problem for the poor, but we need to provide them economical, religious safety so have to think about it.

3. Conversion will happen spontanously you just need to make a good plan. And Pak Govt don't mind Hindus and Christians converting to Sikhi - theres many cases of this.

4. Besides that its not just conversion, its also poor tribals who converted and are now living under poverty line, they need help and as I said it would be good to incorporate them and Gurdwaras in one plan if possible.

5. Sant Babas lol too busy in foreign tours earning money.

6. First take care of what you have, moving colleges schools etc is not an easy job, do you think they will agree? It will be a long battle so first focus on the ones you already have before they go too.

7. Its not Pakistan but local Muslims doing it, and they really don't care if the world watches or not, was what done about the beheaded Sikhs? All world knows about it? What was done about the deplaced Sikhs, the ones who had to pay jizya, left their homes? All world knew, United Sikhs helped a bit but not all.

8. 1947 is an exception, having areas where you have a majority of Sikhs is of several benefits. Imagine you have 50 Sikhs at A, 100 at B and 200 at C, then you will need different prachers etc and all the costs involved instead of just one, besides the community could do same with tuitions etc (this can also be implemented for Sikligars etc in India).

Yes. Awareness in diaspora and creating contacts within Pak, whether its Muslims like the one who made the Facebook page or Pak Sikhs. Gather more information about the place, which Gurdwaras to renovate etc and how to proceed, who could migrate to that area (such as Sikh tribals in north Sindh) etc.

I am in contact with a Sikh who was ex Hindu in Pak since years and he was really wanting to do parchar and everything but he is poor so economical situation limits him.

As I said East Punjab govt, SGPC wont do anything. SGPC wont do anything because the donations in Pak gurdwara are kept by PSGPC and not SGPC. Indian Govt's support can be seen from their unwillingness to build the Kartarpur Corridor in Indian Punjab.

I feel that we need Gurdwaras but Sikhs too, because that is the main point of a Gurdwara right? So for me focusing on Pak Sikhs is equally important.

Chatanga, how serious are you about this?

Chatanga, I think our first step is making a document with the name

of ALL gurdwaras, locations and districts. This would give an overview

of which district has the most Gurdwaras (in my opinion in Pak Punjab it

would be Lahore, Kasur and Gujranwala - leaving Nankana Sahib aside).

Im saying this for a reason.

I have some plans etc too but I stopped time ago due to lack of trustable and serious 'sevadaars'.

1. We cant let personal prejudices to come into this. If they dont want to give help, that's their choice but we cant shut them out.

2. But what about people who already live in the area they move to? Too many will cause friction. Paying people just to look after a Gurdwara wont work either in the long term as we pay not always be able to get funds to them. Could they live there sustainably?

3. I hope so.

4. They will probably want to stick together so consultation is needed. Where would they like to go?

5. Again, dont cut them out. If someone could contact some about this and see, at least we could tick it off and move on.

6. They will if the East Punjab/West Punjab government and the Sikh diaspora offer some money towards new facilities elsewhere.

7. Yeah but the Pak police and army had no presence or jurisdiction in those areas. If we dont want the same to happen elsewhere we need local support from authorities.

8. Every incident of the last 70 years says the opposite. I'm not talking about communities but small teams at the smaller Gurdwaras.

How many of these Gurdwaras actually still contain SGGS ji? Renovating them would be a start.

If you want a list of Gurdwaras ask people on Facebook and Twitter to post their knowledge on one page/group. Ask people to ask their elders to get place names and locations and speak/put up posters in Gurdwaras. Collate the info and put it on a map and database. Asking for photos would be great too.

Some of you have ideas and I am glad you guys are coming round to my points. But bare in mind the political climate and what the situation in Pakistan will be like in the short term with the Nato pull out of Afghanistan. We have to go into this with our eyes open.

Bhaji, i think it would be difficult to ignore the religious issue, and this is a very important religious aspect of the Panth, and the political issue would also present dangers, as the "SIkh" party, the Akalis, would be vying with the congress(who i know would be very keen to join the fray) over who resurrected this crumbling heritage, and therefore should be worthy of Sikh votes.

But as long as it didnt spill over into Indo-pak political issues, it might not, cause any harm.

I'm not saying ignore the religous dimension but be wary of how we project what is going on. If we start talking about converts and the rest of it, they wont help us at all. We need some support from the Pak government and need to take into account the current political climate. We have to show that this is about heritage, something they can understand. If they think it's political or religous dont be surprised if they start getting funny about it.

Sikh voters need to get a bit more mature too. Protecting these sites shouldnt be about votes, it should be done because it is the right thing that Punjabis should be doing regardless of what side of the border they are on. To avoid it becoming a political issue it should be made clear that as the Akalis are in power, that's why they are asking. It's even more reason to get non-political organisations like Universities involved.

If the East Panjab govt did step up to the mark, we would have a much easier job here, but realistically if Badal helped he would most likely want SGPC jurisdiction over the shrines, and given the state of Indian gurdwaras, im not sure that is such a good step. If east panjab govt help was limited to diplomacy in getting the shrines restored, probably that would be better.

I doubt the Pak government would want direct Indian control of these places either. The more we make this a religous or political issue, the less likely we are to get the Pak government's help or backing.

That's why I asked about Universities or Musuems in East Punjab. If there are departments or individuals who could organise this we could show that it is a heritage issue. If Badal offered concessions for mosques in East Punjab in return for the same across the border, it could be a win-win situation.

Badal and the SGPC are going to have their hands full with drug/water/refugee issues in the next few years anyway. They should be intelligent to know we dont want their micromanaging. Give us support to get it done.

the indian govt is the main culprit for poor access of Sikhs into Pakistan.

The Kartarpur Sahib Gurdwara's bridge to East Panjab, was scuppered because of the Indians.

Screw the Indian govt, the Akalis are a SIkh party and they should be fighting our corner. Their allies should support them too. In reality I know the Indians would love nothing more than for SIkh heritage in West Punjab to disappear down a dark hole, but we can still twist their arms.

come on people!! give your opinions and ideas. only 2 or 3 people have replied to this here. If we want to make a difference then we really to to act soon.

The land belonging to the Gurdwaras has more or less gone, and is basically irretrievable, but at least we have the nishani of our Guru's there. Are we to let that go as well?

We have to remember that not many people know the history of West Punjab or are too bothered by it. Sikhs who are ancestrally from there are scattered all over India and the West. They have plenty on their plate as it is. Creating more awareness is one thing but the East Punjab Government and the institutions there really have to step up their game. We havent even talked about other sites of historical importance or places from the 18th century. Maharajah Nau Nihal's palace is now a run down girl's school.

Sindhis will stay sindhi but can manage our shrines in Sindh too. Besides that conversion in general should be more prevalent as Guru Nanak travelled the world to preach Truth aka Sikhi.

Some of the above photos are from Sindh. It is a good idea for them to look after Gurdwaras in their state. The question is whether they live near them or whether they can move near them.

Sindhis are already Nanakpanthis (most of the Hindus) and the dalits are

in need of Sikhi, so won't take us much efforts but will be good for us

as it will strenghten Sikhs in number and give them more

representation. Like till some time back there used to be only one

minority seat for electoral post, for all Hindus Christians Sikhs and

Buddhists. Guess who had the highest chance? 5 Million Hindus Christians

or 20000 Sikhs? And this is just an example, Sikh widows dont get

sarkari benefits etc and just it will benefit our Gurdwaras too. Not all

Sindhis will mind moving to Punjab btw, I have talked to convert Sindhi

sikhs and know of many who did leave Sindh to live in Nankana. Besides

that few Christians and Hindus have embraced Sikhi but if there ws more

Parchar it would have been better.

If we are trying to twist the arm of the Pakistani goverment to let us in and renovate these places it will be even harder to get permission and assistance if we start to run around and convert people as well. Badal and the SGPC tell Sants and Babas off for not doing enough in East Punjab. If they cant do it where they live we cant expect them to do it in another place that is now a foreign country.

That is unless someone is willing to contact Sants and Babas and see who will commit. Who's got those kinds of links? It would be worth having a ring around.

We do know that many Gurdwaras are historically or importance or Guru

related as the name of the Gurdwaras suggest or the history, besides

that we should forget about the Gurughars which have been turned into

hospitals colleges, because the EXISTING ones are already under attack.

The people who looked after these places have died after they left or during Partition. All the survivors are old or dead and were only children back then. We dont know the full history of every Gurdwara as not every family passes down what happened. If we are going to be taken seriously by later generations who ask what happened to these places we need to plan for eventually sorting them all out.

I know some have become colleges/schools/whatever but it is not as if the Pakistani government couldnt relocate them to new buildings and the East Punjab Goverment/diaspora meet some of the costs involved for guarantees that the Sikhs will get full control of these places back.

Ever heard of Taru Singh Gurdwara in Lahore which was converted into a

mosque? Or Nankana Sahib gettnig attacked by students because of minor

issues?

We hear nothing in the West. This is precisely why East Punjab's government and institutions need to get involved and bring it to the wider world's attention. If Pakistan knows the eyes of the world are on it they are less likely to act stupid.

Security comes with huge numbers, as I have always said we do need to

create kind off Sikh settlements in Pak where few people live such as

north Sindh or South Punjab (this is not related to Gurdwaras but

generally).

We had numbers in 1947 and it did nothing especially without backup from East Punjab. This is why groups of Nihangs and well educated and motivated people would be better off. They would know what they are getting themselves into and know what to do if things went wrong without having to worry about women and children/old people.

I doubt the locals would appreciate large numbers of Sikhs suddenly appearing out of nowhere. The last thing we need is for them to think we are taking over or make ourselves a soft target. Look at Afghanistan and the NWFP. There were hundreds of thousands of Sikhs there when the trouble started. What did we in the diaspora or in East Punjab do to stop it? Nothing. Do you think it would be any different if it happened in West Punjab?

I knew about that FB page and even before some Pakistanis have wrtten

books about the lost Gurdwaras etc (it used to be on allaboutsikhs

site) and it sad they're in such a state but I think we need to create a

group for Parchar and Gurdwara rebuild in Pak, local Sikh communities

have problems too so all at once would be nice. Then we can start

thinking of how to help them relocate to another place where they could

live in settlements and more security (unless you start saying that

larger mobs will attack and kill because theyre concentrated in one

place, but that would be just an odd possibility i think). There are

many poor Sikhs in Sindh we need to help and maybe we could do something

related to them that would include Gurdwara restore, repair etc too?

And then we can start focusing on few gurdwaras per time.

We need people to go and find out what is wrong and report back from West Punjab about what is going on. With more information we could come up with better plans to help them.

Converting people is going to go down like a burnt Koran, just look at the current climate there.

Moving people around just to look after places we want them to look after isnt bright idea, they may be safer in places they are established. I dont know, no one does, until they go and assess the situation. We cant trick them, we need to talk to them and see what they want.

Getting random converts to 'repair' Gurdwaras is a bad idea too. These places were built with such intelligence, love and devotion that even after all the desctruction and decay they look better than the prefab type Gurdwaras built elsewhere. Slapping plaster and whitewashing everything like they do in East Punjab will just anger subsequent generations who try and piece together the past and compare the photos above to what we are likely to do to them. Read my post on the first page about the various things that can be done to rebuild the worst affected Gurdwaras in a reasonable way.

The East Punjab government really has to pressure the Pakistan government to start allowing access. As more Gurdwaras are made available we should move on and sort them out.

So what's the plan in that department?

You cleaning out your inbox would be a start lol.

All I will say on a public forum is that people will get away with bad behaviour as long as they are allowed to. Threatening to leave Gurudwaras and build your own works. A lot of young people were I live dont even give money to the Gurdwara because of how the older generation treats them - this hasnt been lost on the older generation. Being stupid or lazy just because it feels 'normal' just wrecks our chances of doing anything and the committees know this.

Add to that all the unemployed people with degrees and work experience sitting around doing nothing and depressing everyone. Gurdwaras could tap into that by using those with accounting/business/law experience and degrees to sort out their accounts and be more accountable by allowing those who ask to see the economic state. Or use these people to do sewa by providing services like legal advice etc. Hell, we could get some history and italian graduates and pay them to go and give Mr Kasoor a hand. The possibilities are endless for what Gurdwaras can do, there is a lot we can do that doesnt involve buying houses or giving it away to money hungry ubercharities.

Things are getting bad in Europe and it requires a bit of foresight and unity from our elders to make sure we dont get screwed over. If Gurudwaras pooled their resources and used them we wouldnt have so many disenchanted kids, forget converting others when we cant even keep the people born into it.

I wont go on about East Punjab too much, but wider publicity of what goes on there and naming and shaming culprits of bad behaviour would bring a lot of pressure and chance of repurcussions from Sikhs in the West. Dont be apathetic about your problems in South Asia.

This issue is quite complex. It all comes down to main sticking points below:

a) Do we totally put people (both parties- sikhs marrying non sikhs) off by banning them to get married in gurdwara- we potentially loose generations of potential sikhs coming from potential sikh marry non sikh or both. And if we do ban these marriages at gurdwara then how do you draw a line with monaie getting married who are arguably also mocking traditions of anand karaj by not following the guru's path? If we want to fix a issue, lets fix it fully- not band aid fix or do half arse job. Lets not pick and chose on beadhi. Beadhi is beadhi whether its done by sikhs marrying non sikhs performing /mocking anand karaj ceremony or whether its done by punjabi monaie performing/mocking anand karaj.

Or

b..) Do we provide options/alternative options to both sikh marrying non sikhs/punjabi monae having wedding i.e - provide alternative options such as chaplain service providing generic vow in presence of sri guru granth sahib ji, without loosing sanctity of anand karaj, so that atleast - oh gurdwara- (sangat/free concept of langar/seva/kirtan/katha) naal ta joraie rehan..you never know when maharaj does kirpa among in sangat in gupti roop bring someone closer to him.

This is just tip of iceberg..i think $h!t is going to hit the fan real soon if our leaders don't step up and calm up these protesters to stop ruining someone special day- marriage ( i don't care what their justifications are). I don't believe in band aid fixes/knee jerk reaction approach without looking at larger implications so i will cut to chase.

I think our leaders need to call an emergency meeting regarding anand karaj to strike a right balance- re-tweak sikh marriage- have massive parchar highlighting importance of anand karaj ceremony, have amrit sanchar before anand karaj ceremony but at the same time- provide alternative granthi chaplain service - recitation of gurbani verses (happy events- lakh khusiya patsahi etc) followed by anand sahib for non amritdharis/non sikhs who just want blessing of guru sahib and follow sikhi at their own gradual speed, at their own accord, at their own will and at their own terms.

Yes, it is very complicated.

a. I dont think we lose generations from not allowing mixed religious marriages. In a lot of these marriages they just end up in divorce. The kids get torn between homes and the Sikh wider family have to step in to make sure the kids dont get abused. My friend's brother married a gori and when he died she went off the rails. Her family didnt care and were a bit racist so the kid's grandparents had to step in and make sure their grandaughter didnt end up in care. Now she's doing great with my mate's family and it cant be said that there is a 'lost generation'.

As for moneh I always thought the dividing line was whether the couple considered themselves Sikh. The gianis and babas should ask them whether they are Sikh. If they say yes, it doesnt matter if they are white/black or born in Siberia. But if they say no I'm Christian/Muslim/whatever or they are having a ceremony in a church or something to get the legal side done but want a bit of 'Bollywood' for the wedding photos, then the Gurdwara should say no.

b. We could do that. But that might just split Sikhs even more or introduce distinctions and other dividing lines. Or not, you're right someone needs to think this all through. But getting committees, babas, sant, gyanis and wider community together to discuss this with logic and informative ideas isnt going to happen. There is no platform for such a discussion.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2110272/Psychologists-confirm-Women-REALLY-dont-like-beards.html

Don't know How much reliable it is but you will hardly found romantic films having bearded heroes.

Taken from the article: 'scientists from New Zealand and Canada decided to conduct their own research.//Women from both countries rated the clean-shaven look as significantly more attractive, the journal Behavioral Ecology reports.'

So all that means is dont go for women from New Zealand or Canada as you have a lower chance. It doesnt say it's impossible. It's all rather mathematical. To be honest a lot of western 'scientists' spend a lot of time doing this kind of pointless research to be published by junk papers in the West. The saying 'dont believe everything you read' is apt in this case.

I've seen a lot of bearded Sikh heroes in Punjabi films. Diljit Dosanjh is a trim Singh, but there are other guys in the Gippy Grewal films who dont look any worse or have less 'screen presence' than clean shaven men.

HSD warriors and religious people use to keep beards in many

societies.Now the societies are moving towards western liberal model

which has very girly life..The importance of masculine is now declining .

I know, this monochrome globalised world with no real diversity or difference is disgusting. But there is a thing called evolution. Sometimes you got to keep one foot in one world and another in the other. Be big enough to be both. You never know what could happen in the future so you keep your options open.

It looks that situation in urban India, and UK are quite different.What is the percentage of Sikhs who keep beard and turban

in UK ?In urban India 90% of sikh men keep turban and beard yet it

has become epidemic for girls which are marrying non sikh men In both

my mother's and father's side situation is now very bad.Just 2 weeks ago

I saw marriage pic of my distant relative with non sikh on Facebook.No

wonder no invitation was given.So I don't agree with you point that more

women will see turban and beard then they will choose them as partners

because in urban India it is exactly opposite

If that's the case it sounds like you need to cast your net a bit wider. I dont think there are any statistics for the amritdhari/keshdari/mona ratio in the UK. If your community is really small then you will be assimilated by the bigger community. It's happened to Sikh communities in East Asia and South America that didnt get new blood from back home.

I know other factors are important. I live in posh area of NCR region

of Delhi which has very little sikh population . Most of them are

filthy rich and many have super model looking wives and GF's .It is

their money which attract which do the trick for them .

Exactly, where there is a will there is a way. That goes for women and men. Plenty of women out there looking for husbands too.

Accepting reality is not self defeatist .Past is now irrelevant .At that

time woman use to marry men from ruling class , no wonder muslim women

married singhs because they were rulers.As I said it is just a game of

statistics there will always be sikh men who will able to find wives

but as the ratio of available sikh women who wants to marry them fall

there will always be many which are left out.

Then some Sikh men will have to find wives where they can find them and raise their kids appropriately if they cant find Sikh women to marry them.

1)recently there was scientific study which proves that women dislike facial hair so Sikh men with full beard are always going to be at disadvantage.

2) When we talk about turbaned sikhs we have to put them in categories, trimmed or no beard , like cricketer Harbhajan singh , thin beard, heavy beard, tied. Open beard.Many times examples of trimmed singhs are given which had success with women

3)In Sikhism the worst hit are men which are neither fully religious nor totally clean shaven.Amritdhari men will marry amritdhari or religious girls, less or non religious girls willl choose mona so where will the sikhs which are not fully religious but wear turban and keep uncut beard will go?

4) I agree with you that a turbaned bearded sikh with good height , health personality, career may end up attracting women but sikhs are humans and not all are like this.

5) With many many sikh women are doing inter religious marriage , Sikh men had no option but to marry non sikh women .It is simple question of stats. If there are 3 out of 10 sikh women opt for out of religion marriages then 3-4 sikh men out of 10 too have to look out of religion for partners.or remain single

1. Bro, I doubt it was scientific. More like an opinion poll. Plenty of societies have had bearded men in large numbers and they never died out due to lack of children. The real problem here is how common beards and turbans are. The more women see them and the more comfortable they are with men who have them, the more likely they are to go out with them. Singhs in the UK get attention from Sikh girls and non-Sikh girls, even though some opinion poll may say otherwise, there are still women who are into beards. Ultimately all that stuff is skin deep, there are other things that women care about. Dont get down in the dumps or miserable about it, that will only cause more problems. In India with Singhs cutting their hair and the media portraying Sikhs badly, this may be why people are reluctant to date a Singh. The way around it is not watch those stupid shows or let kids watch them, and show that Singhs can be normal guys too.

2. I think you are overthinking it or trying to see patterns that are anecdotal. So what if so and so on TV has such and such girlfriend? There is a famous Sikh actor in the west called Waris Ahluwalia, he doesnt have any problems and he has a big beard. Sometimes you can see things that get in the way when it may not actually be true.

3. In the UK the keshdharis are in the same boat as the monas and they marry monis. Some monis arent into non-Sikh men and have married Singhs. Most of my family are not that religous now, but my cousin married a Singh she knew and they are happy together. It was his personality and 'normalness' that made him better than other guys. Decent guys, regardless of how they look, will never have a problem in the long run as long as they dont expect good fortune to dump a girl in their lap. Why cant it be like that in East Punjab?

4. I know not everyone can be like Diljit Dosanjh or whatever role model Singhs have for fashion style, but charisma/personality are something that can be worked on. Strength or confidence always attract women. Look, I live in the UK and I see english people who you would think that no one would ever have kids with. But they have a whole pile of kids. There really is someone for everyone out there, being negative wont do it.

5. Marrying a non-sikh moni who wants to be with you is probably better than marrying a sikh girl who has personal hang ups about her own people. It's up to the individual at the end of the day, dont care what others say, they're usually hypocrites. Feeling bad or self defeatist will only make things worse though, figure out a way to win. Sikhs married muslim women back in Maharaja Ranjit Singh's time and they managed to produce kids who saw themselves as Sikh. OK, I know it's not ideal marrying Non-Sikhs, but if you have to marry....

1. Ok , so it was discovered by accident but was it incorporated as evidence or was it extrapolated out to spin a story?

2. I dont know. Kasoor say there is a monument but he didnt take pictures of any inscriptions. So it's a bit like Schrodinger's cat, we dont know either way. But we also have to make sure beyond doubt that it is one and the same as was discovered before. Cairo is a big place and Kasoor has made mistakes in Rome that dont exactly fill me with confidence about this one.

My point about the Punjab regiment is that with tangible evidence of where they were in Cairo we could pinpoint where they found it.

3. True, but a lot of people have similar names that can be misinterpreted. Khanak/Nanacus arent Guru Nanak.

4. It's a shame they didnt leave definitive co-ordinates for it. Chances are it is the one that Kasoor found, but we have to be sure.

Sikhism is going through a carnage of mixed marriages of Sikh women with other religions in several parts of world.Harsh truth is that future of sikhs is quite bleak and many sikh men have no option either to discard their turban or beard or remain single.

Not really. There are plenty of Singhs in the UK who have no problems getting women. Talking to freshies from India who cut their hair for girls, being mona hasnt improved their success rate with Sikh women. Why we as a society think it all comes down to 'hair' I dont know. A lot of it is intelligence, personality, hobbies, fitness (muscles, healthy look), money etc. Ok some girls think a turban equals a highly religous guy, but that's because they have had bad experiences with turbanned men who act ultra religous and expect their woman to care for them like their mother did. Women dont want to look after a manchild for the rest of their lives, they want to be looked after themselves. It's a partnership.

Look at it another way, no man attracts every member of the other sex. Women put off by a turban is their choice. Other women arent.

^^^

Not necessarily. I see so many inbred looking apnay, we could do with a wider gene pool.

Our problems are not mixed marriages but rather our inability to incorporate outsiders into our society smoothly.

The British don't have this problem and nor do Muslims.

This is a self inflicted wound.

We are still struggling with mixed caste marriages whilst others can integrate completely different races into their society. Go figure.

Lol, is this eugenics Dal-style?

Inbred apnay in the UK look like that due to economic, diet and lifestyle choices their parents made growing up. If anything they look no different to the goreh/sulleh/mixed race people from the same background.

I dont think the two are linked. Mixed marriages are becoming a bigger thing but so are divorces. If they want to marry, they dont need to do it in a Gurudwara.

Not everyone wants to be Sikh, a lot of people marrying Sikhs have a misguided view of Sikhs due to their spouses. They think they can turn up at an event and be the centre of attention, because of all the fawning over them from their brown doll/lover boy. When they realise Sikhs have white friends and arent bothered by the novelty of a white person at a brown event they get stroppy. Others have no intention with getting involved in the Sikh side of the family and expect their wife/husband to go through the hoops of acceptance for their own family/community. That's just the goreh. We dont need to talk about what happens when marrying into muslim families or the 'love jihad' that young musi boys and girls wage.

Accepting outsiders is another thing entirely. It varies depending on a hell of a lot of things. Some in the older generation get quite happy when their kids marry goreh as they feel 'they have made it'. They are now inseperable from British society and all that blah blah. Funnily enough these same people get upset when they see a fauji with a chavni. How do you explain that?

The British arent accepting either. They expect people to give up a lot and jump through so many hoops for acceptance. Even then it's not true acceptance. They still push back to try and make you want it more. Unfortunately so many of our lot fall for it all the time.

Muslims just want more numbers to support their aims and sense of security with 'safety in numbers'. In reality and history, it just means that when the shooting starts we have more chance of getting them than they have of getting us.

Overcoming our own internal differences is a far higher priority before we go fishing in other ponds.

I did it because I had a grudge against him. He deserved it. He was the real culprit. He wanted to crush the spirit of my people, so I have crushed him. For full 21 years, I have been trying to wreak vengeance. I am happy that I have done the job. I am not scared of death. I am dying for my country. I have seen my people starving in India under the British rule. I have protested against this, it was my duty. What a greater honour could be bestowed on me than death for the sake of my motherland?

http://youtu.be/keJ9s41v5tU