Beast

wat aspect of java u got a problem wid?

my shopkeeping skill might come in handy

:shock:

Give money to bums??

You can give my chittar all the money u want.

3)Gurdwaras based on caste! how silly is this! because our religion was

based on a casteless society!!!! and we have ramgharia. rada sawami,

ravi dass, NAKLI nirinkaris as gurdwara's?? what the??????

Excellent post dude. But as far as i know radha soami's are not even Sikhs. They may repesct Sikhi and go to the gurdwara, but their path is different to that of Sikhs. I don't know if the same goes for ravi dass ppl.

Nirankari's aren't a cast, their a bunch of toss pots if history is correct.

Your right abt 'Ramgharia' gurdware though, although hopefully their commitee members may be able to give an explanation as to why this is the case.

I have my own theories on why so many girls get converted. I think that its because theres too much disunity between amritdharees and those Sikhs that aren't that religious. Both camps are completely seperate from each other allowing feelings of resentment towards each other to rise. Obviously there's more to it than just this, but speaking from experience this is the impression I get and it seems to be a major contribution to the problem.

Dogs and wolves have carniverous teeth since they eat nothing but meat - these teeth are sharp an pointy, hence ideal for tearing flesh. Vegetarian animals have herbivorous teeth which are ideal for grinding down non-meat foods such as grass and vegetables.

Humans are omnivorous. We have both carniverous and herbivorous teeth.

Your question hinges on the definition of what is jhatka. There is an (incorrect) assumption on your part that there is only one commonly received interpretation of what constitutes jhatka.

As I have already mentioned, to some people jhatka includes all of the meat available in a British supermarket, which is not marked "halal". This is because their definition of jhatka is meat characterised by the following qualities (the third quality being optional and not required, provided that number 2 is present:

1) Slaughter by one physical action;

2) Slaughter not done by letting the blood leak out until the animal is dead;

3) Slaughter not done by a Muslim.

Completely missed this post, sorry!! :bling:

take Shasterkovich's post into account as well pls baba

Well i just wanted to ask, is this rehat maintained at all times? I mean for example if you didnt manage to cut the head of in one blow and a bit of skin was still attached. would you still eat it or throw it away?

and is there certain animals which you cant eat? in the sense that you normally hear of goats being killed for their meat, but can you eat other animals like cows, chickens, birds, deers, pigs, horses, dogs, cats etc? Reason being that often you hear the argument that the armies didnt have time to prepare dhal etc and so had to eat meat, well if you were in those circumstances and you saw a dog would that also be chatka'd and eaten?

and how would you kill the smaller animals like birds, chickens, cats etc.

Also do eggs and fish count? can you nihangs eat eggs and fish?

how do you chatka an egg or even a fish!?

Beast:

From a biochemical point of view, eggs aren't meat.

Personally, I don't eat halal and my preference is for the animal that i've eaten to have been killed with the minimum of pain (ie chatka). By this mentality non-halal meat in the UK is cool coz the animals are killed quickly and efficiently.

Shasterkovich:

Don't be so sure about the slaughtering being done in painless ways in the UK. Worryingly, in the plants the stun gun does'nt finish off the beast in some cases, while it goes down the line hanging upside down, its legs broken. The bolt has to be placed directly in the middle of the forehead to have effect. Human error does happen sometimes, and this results in the animal not being properly killed by the shock. I witnessed a perfect bolt-killing once (on a pig in Germany). It was on an open farm, and it needed 2 very strong men to do it properly. Modern battery methods are not conducive to correct slaughering technique.

While I don't believe that eating meat is wrong per se, it would be wrong to pretend that modern farming methods are humane. However, in my opinion you can eat mutton and lamb in good conscience, and most other meats too. This is because the producer is the one who will be culpable for any inhumane/painful methods he uses - not I. As a consumer of the end-product, I want the beast killed humanely, and I have no control over the stages from animal to dinner. Therefore the blame lies squarely with the industry.

What if you cant get chatka meat here? but still wanted to eat meat (as many people on this forum believe need to, i.e. in order for a balanced diet and for training as people have said on a topic to do with training and diet), for these people are they breaking the rehat by eating non-chatka meat? if you just buy and eat normal meat does that make you a krethi?

and of the people who have claimed that eating meat is ok and that chatka is fine etc, how many of you actually eat meat, and how many just talk it? Plus do you hide the fact that you are a meat eater from the people around you or are you open about it?

Both myself and Shasterkovich implied that we don't eat halal meat, therefore rehat is not broken. (your remaining queries in the above quote become obsolete)

Shasterkovich:

What's so important about how you kill a damn goat (as long as it's not halal)?

truthsingh:

Meat is allowed as far as it is "jhatka" and this hukumnama was issued by akal thakat sahib.

Quote:

Please clarify beast whether or not you believe an animal would feel fear and run when seeing a weapon. So far youre on both ships.

<Beast> Give me the quotes where I have contradicted myself (taking into account your reading difficulties)

Still waiting.

Shasterkovich:

Baba Manochal,

I feel it's important to point out that your posts in this thread contain too many assumptions, and you have imputed from my posts things that I have not represented either implicitly or explicitly. The fact that I'm not addressing them all here does not mean that I accept them as true.

baba, I'll try to be a little less sarcastic in the future if thats what will make you happy. (yes, I'm holding out the olive branch)

Also, please make a concise list of all the questions that you feel still remain.

Remember: The jhatka issue has been tackled, in my opinion rehat is not broken by eating non-jhatka meat. It is broken by eating halal (and therefore, in my case, kosher meat) meat. (I know this contradicts Akal Takhat, but I'm not really an SGPC fan).

Most of the replies you get will most likely be opinions, but if something you said was illogical then pls don't stick to your guns.

your school teacher example is crap, there are so many individuals who ordinarily will claim to be nihangs etc but when asked to be specific they answer in much the same way as you did. the logic i used is based on being given the choice, if your not comfortable with that then be clear, dont be ambiguous.

I have never 'ordinarily claimed to be a nihang'. The closest I have come is to imply that I may have some attributes which often characterise nihangs (eg an ability to piss people off that I don't like).

In regards to your cola comment, perhaps in the future i shall pick my words with more care, let me rephrase in regards to the drinking part.. is some type of gurbani read (by others)while a nihang drinks the animlas blood? also please can you answer the actual question itself, i.e. if halal is wrong because its a ritual which involves sacred verses being read, then are there of are there not certain shabads read before the animal is killed such as chandi di var, this is what i have heard or read somewhere, can somebody confirm or deny this?

i called you a nihang because earlier you said you was both and neither, which means you dont seem to care so i have chosen to call you a nihang since you seemed to give me the option of doing so. if im wrong please state as such.

If you say you disagree with halal or question its use does that make anyone anti muslim or does it mean your attacking muslims?

and mr centre of the universe the muslim halal comment wasnt meant for yourself, if you read back through your own posts you will notice that it wouldnt work if that was meant for your benifit, however if you look at shasterkovich's posts it does apply to them. so dont be such a drama queen. and wow thank you so much for pointing out that an animal would be aware of its surroundings AFTER its throat had been slit! never would have guessed that one!

1. I'm not a mind reader. Make it clear who u are speaking to, they'll teach u that at school don't worry.

2. From those that support the halal way of slaughter, the animal is not said to feel pain and remains calm throughout. I simply commented in 1 of my earlier posts that an animal I saw being slaughtered on tv did not seem calm. Whether this was an isolated case I don't know.

i would say none of my questions have been answered.

Really???!?? Both Hari and Shasterkovich made some excellent points.

I'll come back to this in another post.

why are you so scared of answering the question? thats the 2nd or 3rd time youve avoided it now. ok so you dont eat halal. im not asking that. im asking what kind of meat do you eat.

how is that such a difficult question to answer? hari said he has eaten 3 chickens whose necks he has broken, fair enough the chap answered the point. but you for some reason keep avoiding it?

why?

being no expert on meat, i still pretty certain when i say that there must be more ways of killing meat apart from just halal and jhatka. im asking you what method you use, or if you dnt then what method does the person who provides the meat for you use.

and what it to me? well it is something to me because i wish to know the information, if you dont want to answer of get involved in the discussion then dont. leave. bye bye.

I've said this many times now, the meat that I do eat is not halal. Period. This discussion is abt Eating Meat within Rehat (in the Sikh Martial Arts/Nihangs section for some reason). Once more in case u missed it, I personally eat meat as long as it isn't halal.

btw i feel the same abt kosher as i do abt halal. why? no reason, I just do. They seem to be the same thing but with different names. Does anyone know anything abt the kosher process?

i cant believe that out of so many people who say its ok to eat jhatka etc, that only one person can tell me where they got their meat from and how it was killed.

Is saying that its ok to eat jhatka the same as saying you will only eat jhatka???

beast calm down and chat properly try to be civilised or dont bother at all.

:shock:

You seem to be asking me a lot about myself but you haven't said anything about yourself. I'm not going to reveal aspects of my life to a strange boy on the net. You want to know abt me, well first reveal a little bit abt yourself and where you stand on meat and on Nihangs (these two seem to be central to this thread).

I'll give my opinion on certain topics and I will accept criticisms if there are any flaws in any of my arguments. I might have an ego, but I'm always willing to further my knowledge.

Never seen chatka being done so I'm going to tackle this using common sense. Go up to an animal on a farm baba, take out a knife and watch its reaction. What are the chances of (eg) a lamb leggin it from u scared that its going to get cut up by a raving mad man????!?? (i'm not calling a mad man, i'm lookin at it from the lamb's perspective. I'm sure that ur mental health is unsurpassed).One place where i've seen chatka is on the shastarvidiya web site - the goat there has no idea that its going to be decapitated, its just standing there

baba, u really need to learn to read and understand english. i've put what i said in quotes for you. If you are stuck ask an elder to come and help you. If you are surrounded by elders with the same understanding of the english language that you have then come and ask me what this quote means......tut tut.

Please clarify beast whether or not you believe an animal would feel fear and run when seeing a weapon. So far youre on both ships.

Give me the quotes where I have contradicted myself (taking into account your reading difficulties)

i called you a nihang because earlier you said you was both and neither, which means you dont seem to care so i have chosen to call you a nihang since you seemed to give me the option of doing so. if im wrong please state as such.

Your logic is truly amazing. Anyway, why are you trying to label me? You don't even know if i'm a Singh.

Lets do a comparison: a teacher gets a flat tyre on her car so she changes it herself. For some reason she also checks the oil, the water levels and all the tyre pressures. Does that maker her a mechanic??? No - she is still a school teacher. Similarily, I can justifiably 'label' myself as being both and neither a nihang. ie some of my qualities i share with nihangs, and others i don't............................and u thought I didn't care. lol

Sorry but isnt removing the head of an animal the usual way chatka is done? im sure you could shoot it as well, but since this is meant to be a practical discussion, the liklihood of the nihangs or other meat eating sikhs who belive in chatka shooting an animal at home or elsewhere ar rather slim.

As far as i'm aware chatka means to kill with one blow.

How does me not eating halal meat mean that I am anti-Muslim or attacking Muslims??? Use your brain cell once in a while babu. My muslim mates don't seem to mind. Can u imagine me saying to them "i am offended coz u don't eat pork"??!??! No, coz thats against their religion and I respect their beliefs. I don't eat halal and they respect my beliefs. In this particular instance you are making assumptions on a situation on which u have no knowledge coz u don't eat meat. If u did eat meat and u had any friends (and some of them were Muslim) then u would understand the situation. I quite clearly stated that the UK govt wanted to ban it, and that the animal seemed to be aware of its surroundings after its throat had been slit.

some type of gurbani read (by others)while a nihang drinks the animlas blood? also please can you answer the actual question itself, i.e. if halal is wrong because its a ritual which involves sacred verses being read, then are there of are there not certain shabads read before the animal is killed such as chandi di var, this is what i have heard or read somewhere, can somebody confirm or deny this?

Hopefully someone put there can answer this coz i'm just as ignorant as babu is here. What type of Gurbani is read, and is babu's claim that its done while some1 is drinking blood true?? (some how i doubt it is but i have no idea).

Rather than avoiding them is there no-one who can answer them?!?! i asked loads in the first post and yet hardly any have been even attempted at being answered!!

Tell u what, why don't u write down what u feel has been answered from ur original and subsequent posts. Then we can tackle all the issues that you feel have been neglected.

Finally babu, can i ask u what was your motive was for opening this thread? Did you want to learn more abt 'Eating Meat with Rehat" (which for some reason is in the Sikh Martial Arts/Nihangs section) or was it ur aim to try and create conflict coz some ppl have different views to your own???

If, by a miracle, it was the former than a lot of your questions have been answered, but unfortunately you seem to have a problem understanding english.

Beast you avoided my question again. Where do you get your meat from? and how do you or another individual kill it?

its a simple question!

Whats it to u?? I've already stated that I don't eat halal meat. Read ALL the posts again fully. Shasterkovich came out with some really good points.

I would love to rinse u more babbu, but I have to go stand in the shop now,

You're all wrong. Its a conspiracy, I've discounted every other possibility. Aliens from outer space are controlling our governments - they put implants in bush's bush. They want all clever ppl to fail and all dumb ppl to succeed. years and years from now only dumb ppl will exist on this planet and then the aliens will attack. they will send there women folk down (all of whom bear a close resemblance to aishwarye rai ) to impregnate all the men. 6 months later the men will give birth to triplets. Don't ask how they come out :shock: :shock: :shock:

This is the only possibility, it explains why I did worse on a resit exam even though I answered more questions the second time and had actually bothered to revise beforehand.

Now I just need to explain to my parents that I was too intelligent for university and thats why I failed everything. Damn aliens, they've resigned me to a life behind a shop counter.

using your common sence would suggest that no matter what the fear felt by the animal upon seeing a knife surely it would piss its pants (lol) if the same individual pulled out a kirpan!

and from what i know of animals which i admit is not much, i have never really seen an animal stand still for long enough for a guy to walk up and chop its head off. as i admit i havent spent much time around sheeps and goats so i cant be certain, but surely animals which are fully concious are aware of their surroundings.

Go visit the sheep in the fields of Wales. Pull ur weapon out on them and see if they run.

this point leads of naturally to the question i asked earlier about whether the animals are drugged before they are killed in chatka?

if u cant answer then fair enough, but hopefuly others will!

Sorry bro, u need to ask an expert on this. Is it up to the guy doin the chatka? Maybe (i'm guessin here) some Singhs in India prefer to 'drug' them while others don't.

what do you think animal rights protestors would say if they heard that nihangs in the uk and other countries were beheading goats and sheep etc in their back yards? do you think there would be noise made then too?

Why would Nihangs need to behead the animals???? It ain't halal so whats the probelem?

not sure which prayer the muslim reads, but dont nihangs read chandi di var or chopai sahib or something like that before, or after they kill the animal? or is that while they drink the goats blood?

I used to try and sing whilst drinking (cola baba ji) when I was a kid. If any Nihang needs training whilst drinking blood I will be happy to oblige. Look out 4 the new website in the future. lol

the meat which you eat... as a nihang .... do you or do you not kill the meat yourself before eating it? or do you get somebody else to chatka the animal for you, hence the title of this topic, do you eat meat within the rehat of nihang maryada or not?

or do you purchase your meat from the butchers of other shops?

Why do u keep assuming I'm a Nihang????????? Are u trying to be like Mystic Meg?

I thought the title was 'Eating Meat Within Rehat'?

lucky dhaba rules!!!!

(its next door to haveli on the GT road between jakandhar and phagwara in case anyone's interested)

Did a quick search on Google. Here are some of the more neutral sites.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2977086.stm

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs...,922695,00.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../11/nmeat11.xml

this last one is interesting. half way down it says that:

Cattle could take up to two minutes to lose consciousness, the report said, while sheep and goats took up to seven seconds to become oblivious to their suffering.

But surely a muslim could argue the same point back, that nihangs are never going to admit that their method is wrong and chatka is correct. i have never heard that the uk govt is trying to ban halal, from personal observation, the number of places catering for halal is increasing.. from where did you get that information?

BBC Radio 5 around late March (2003) on a Friday if my memory is correct. If it helps I can get an exact date, but that might take a bit of time. The number of places catering for halal in the south east (ie London) is definately increasing no doubt, but I think that is due to the increase number of Muslim Turks and east Europeans settling in the area.

if the animal is distressed during halal, then what about during chatka? if a guy is standing next to it with a big whopping sword, then isnt the animal more aware of that than a knife?

Never seen chatka being done so I'm going to tackle this using common sense. Go up to an animal on a farm baba, take out a knife and watch its reaction. What are the chances of (eg) a lamb leggin it from u scared that its going to get cut up by a raving mad man????!?? (i'm not calling a mad man, i'm lookin at it from the lamb's perspective. I'm sure that ur mental health is unsurpassed).One place where i've seen chatka is on the shastarvidiya web site - the goat there has no idea that its going to be decapitated, its just standing there.

p.s. mr hari and mr beast, do you kill your own animals as well? where do you kill them?

I've killed some ants, annoying little sh**s. There was a good chance that it was chatka, although with the force that i came down with my foot i can't really be sure. No baba ji, i didn't eat them.

also please try and answer some of the other questions i raised.

What questions? On the whole I gave my opinion here, and I made it obvious that I don't know too much abt the chatka process.

By the way, why is this question under "Sikh Martial Arts/Nihangs"??? Are u implying that those that who do not consider themselves to be nihangs don't eat meat within Rehat, or because it is mainly Nihangs that tackle the meat issue? If its the latter then why ask Lalleshvari to get involved? I did a search on his name and it became apparent that he's not a Nihang.

Go back to your original post and decide which questions you feel have been answered. Then post those questions which u feel still need to be addressed.

So far then, it can be understood that, as long as the animal is killed by a knife, then its is fine to eat. Be it halal non-halal etc. And also that any animal is viable to be eaten as i said, horses cats dogs pigs etc.

Can someone shed some light on this: I heard that chatka just means killin with one blow and that this has been done done with (eg) a gun by Nihangs in the past. ie a 'knife' from what i gather is not what explicitly qualifies the process as being halal.

Also would the two people who have replied so far describe themselves as nihangs?? or just people who eat meat?

Neither and both at the same time :wink: I am who I am and I try to gain knowledge from as many ppl as i can.

Also i know somebody who only eats halal meat and they say that halal is better because all the blood is drained out, and since the blood of the animal carries most of the diseases, by draining it, it is healthier. Also that most of us claim that halal is inhumane, but according to this person, his muslim butcher claims that the first vein/(whatever it is) he cuts is the central nerve one which stops the animal feeling any pain.

I dont know how true this is, but if this is the case, then isnt eating halal better than normal meats?

What did u expect them to say????? A Muslim is not exactly going to criticise halal is he? lol

The UK govt. is taking steps to ban halal because it believes that the process is not humane. Also if u see the animal it is clear that it is AWARE of what is happening, and from what I saw on TV, the animal was in some distress. A side effect of this is that a massive amount of adrenaline is released into the blood to find its way into muscles. This is not natural, adrenaline is only supposed to be in the body for a short period.

Again i realy look forward to narsingha's views, and those of people who claim they are nihangs. As meat eating nihangs, dont you feel it is wrong that two people (the guys that have posted so far) dont seem to have an issue as such with halal and would eat non-chatka meat?

Baba Ji, is ur eyesight ok? Or do u believe that if something is not chatka then it must be halal??

Read my previous post again (slowly) - I quite explicitly stated that i don't eat halal.

Why do u need to know narsingha's point of view so badly? Read the shastarvidiya website and try and spot the mistake's in your original post. :?

From a biochemical point of view, eggs aren't meat.

Personally, I don't eat halal and my preference is for the animal that i've eaten to have been killed with the minimum of pain (ie chatka). By this mentality non-halal meat in the UK is cool coz the animals are killed quickly and efficiently. I'm not sure how fish in the UK are killed though - does any1 know?

I have to go now, my bacon butty is ready :wink:

Gur Fateh!

We have seen numerous references to Guru Gobind Singh as "Akali Nihang" Guru Gobind Singh.

The associated websites do make clear the varying stages between Khalsa Singh, Nihang Singhs and Akali Nihang Singhs (also see posts by Narsingha on how to become a Nihang).

However, I must ask that, surely Guru Gobind Singh is above all such distinctions/ranks? Just a personal opinion/question, perhaps the forum or Narsingha and others who support the notion could help explain?

SAT SRI AKAAALL!!

I might be totally wrong here, but I had a thought earlier.

Is Guru Gobind Singh being referred to as "Akali Nihang" Guru Gobind Singh or "Akali Nihang Guru" Gobind Singh. There is a difference, coz even the term 'Guru' is a rank/distinction (?). Any tom, dick and harry can name their kids Gobind Singh but there was only one Guru Gobind Singh. Now there existed many Akali Nihangs in our history, but there are only 10 Akali Nihang Guru's.

What do u think, am I missing something totally obvious from this argument or have I smashed it??? lol

And girls, stop b*tchin at each other, you'll ruin ur nails.