Creation according to first episode of Vishnu Purana

[chatanga1]

7 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Well for one, you enjoy daily life more and the quality of your life improves.

I was actually thinking of your life in this world. Gurmat is based on miri-piri. How would this knowledge help you make certain decisions in life. i.e. who to vote for, whether to go to war or not.

[BhagatSingh]

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

Quote

Well for one, you enjoy daily life more and the quality of your life improves.

I was actually thinking of your life in this world. Gurmat is based on miri-piri. How would this knowledge help you make certain decisions in life. i.e. who to vote for, whether to go to war or not.

You left this out from my quote -

Quote

Another change is in mental clarity - It's like going from an old analog TV to a digital HD TV.

It brings more clarity into any given problem.

Look problems are always hard. But they are made a lot easier if you can see clearly. How can a blind person solve 2+2 on their sheet if they can't see even see 2+2 on the sheet. 2+2 is a very simple problem that is made overly complicated with blindness.

Ok not the best analogy but you get what I saying.

In this manner, I have noticed people in my personal life get overly entangled in trying to solve simple problems, that have very clear solutions. But because they are dreaming, they are not in full control.

They don't have free will. Waking up by surrendering to God, paradoxically gives free will. It's the biggest paradox. You surrender over your will to God and you get more free will.

WTF?

it's true. You surrnder yourself fully and you suddenly transform into the most free person. Freedom radiates from within. it is true freedom.

This waking up brings more composure into your life so that you can deal with such problems to your best. How can you walk straight to your destination when the wind is blowing so strongly that it pushes you away?

When you wake up, you become still and you can walk straight to your destination.

 

Look growth is a gift of God. Things are always going to be challenging because we grow through overcoming challenges. Life is always going to throw challenges.

Waking up gives us the ability to enjoy very tough challenges that would otherwise not be enjoyable.
 

It allows you to live your life fully!

In sad moments, it is joyful sadness. In angry moments, it is calm anger.

It is a big ass paradox.

[BhagatSingh]

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

According to Japji Sahib, "eka mai jugat viai, tin chele parwaan" The one divine mother created the 3 disciples- Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh.

This is a belief of Shaktism - ie materialism. Eka Mai, the one mother, is matter, material, mother, all related words. ਮਾਤ੍ਰ/matr - maya, mother, ma, measure, matter. Maha Mai, supreme mother, is the source of everything and she, the physical universe, created life with consciousness/spirit, which was named as Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh by the then three major religions in India.

That's the Shakat philosophy in a nutshell. But it is flipped on its head in Guru Granth Sahib.

So in context of Guru Granth Sahib, I would not read it like the above because in Guru Granth Sahib, it is not physical universe that created consciousness, it is consciousness that created the physical universe. Guru Arjun Dev ji says -  ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਜਿਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥ In this verse, we see this phrase - Vishnu ki Maya. 

Maya is something created by Vishnu. In English, this means that the world is created by consciousness, that physicality is the creation of the observer. Vishnu ne Maya banayi hai. Vishnu means one who is everywhere. Guru ji is saying Consciousness created the world and is spread throughout the world.

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
The creator of the world is Narsingh Narayan. He holds the universe into existence with his Tusks.

And

ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਸਭ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਸ ॥ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਪਰਗਾਸ ॥
Narayan resides everywhere, he illuminates each and every thing in the world.

Most people reading these verses in Gurbani have no idea of the meaning.

In plain English, Guru Sahib is saying Consciousness brings the world into view. it is the source of the world, the support of the world and the "illuminator" of the world.

Picture three circles. One big one, and one small one inside the big one and one smallest.


The largest one is Narayan (in red). the middle white one is Maya, and the smallest one is also Narayan (red).
Red-Consciousness/ Spiritual/ Narayan
White- Physical /Material World/ Maya

Narayan creates Maya, ie Maya is a circle inside Narayan. And Narayan also resides within Maya, thus Narayan is a smaller circle within Maya.

That's why he is known as Narayan. Nar + Ayan. The One inside the body of man.

This might be getting long and winded and I don't know any easy way to explain it. Are you with me so far?

[Guest Wake Up]

2 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

This is a belief of Shaktism - ie materialism. Eka Mai, the one mother, is matter, material, mother, all related words. ਮਾਤ੍ਰ/matr - maya, mother, ma, measure, matter. Maha Mai, supreme mother, is the source of everything and she, the physical universe, created life with consciousness/spirit, which was named as Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh by the then three major religions in India.

That's the Shakat philosophy in a nutshell. But it is flipped on its head in Guru Granth Sahib.

So in context of Guru Granth Sahib, I would not read it like the above because in Guru Granth Sahib, it is not physical universe that created consciousness, it is consciousness that created the physical universe. Guru Arjun Dev ji says -  ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਜਿਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥ In this verse, we see this phrase - Vishnu ki Maya. 

Maya is something created by Vishnu. In English, this means that the world is created by consciousness, that physicality is the creation of the observer. Vishnu ne Maya banayi hai. Vishnu means one who is everywhere. Guru ji is saying Consciousness created the world and is spread throughout the world.

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
The creator of the world is Narsingh Narayan. He holds the universe into existence with his Tusks.

And

ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਸਭ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਸ ॥ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਪਰਗਾਸ ॥
Narayan resides everywhere, he illuminates each and every thing in the world.

Most people reading these verses in Gurbani have no idea of the meaning.

In plain English, Guru Sahib is saying Consciousness brings the world into view. it is the source of the world, the support of the world and the "illuminator" of the world.

Picture three circles. One big one, and one small one inside the big one and one smallest.


The largest one is Narayan (in red). the middle white one is Maya, and the smallest one is also Narayan (red).
Red-Consciousness/ Spiritual/ Narayan
White- Physical /Material World/ Maya

Narayan creates Maya, ie Maya is a circle inside Narayan. And Narayan also resides within Maya, thus Narayan is a smaller circle within Maya.

That's why he is known as Narayan. Nar + Ayan. The One inside the body of man.

This might be getting long and winded and I don't know any easy way to explain it. Are you with me so far?

While I disagree on the other topic with you regarding imperative vs cultural comparison, the above you have written is perfectly coherent, and is the truth to existence how I understand it. This sums it up:

ਜੋਤਿ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਜਾਤਿ ਕੀ ਜੋਤੀ ॥
Joṯ kī jāṯ jāṯ kī joṯī.
The creation is born of the Light, and the Light is in the creation 

If you'd like a direct perspective on the subject or even to just see how another different path (Rosicrucian) explain be very same concept I recommend a book called the Kybalion by Three Initiates. You can get ebook copies for about a US dollar. 

[chatanga1]

14 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

This is a belief of Shaktism - ie materialism. Eka Mai, the one mother, is matter, material, mother, all related words. ਮਾਤ੍ਰ/matr - maya, mother, ma, measure, matter. Maha Mai, supreme mother, is the source of everything and she, the physical universe, created life with consciousness/spirit, which was named as Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh by the then three major religions in India.

That's the Shakat philosophy in a nutshell. But it is flipped on its head in Guru Granth Sahib.

 

So if it flipped on it's head, is it still Shaktism?

[BhagatSingh]

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

So if it flipped on it's head, is it still Shaktism?

No then it is called Vaishnavism.

Hence why this verse exists -
ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਜਿਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥
He is Vaishno upon whom Vishnu is happy. He stays apart from Vishnu's Maya. (He sees physical phenomenon as illusory.)


Materialism is the idea that the physical universe is the source of everything including consciousness. That consciousness does not exist in the universe aside from living beings such as humans. (Btw this was the predominant paradigm in western science for a long time.)

Would you still call it materialism if a person believes and behaves as if physical phenomenon are all illusory and all comes from the universal consciousness and that consciousness is everywhere?

Then it is called Spiritualism.

Materialism (Shaktism in India) - Matter ultimately created spirit.
Matter -> Spirit -> Matter -> Spirit....

Spiritualism (Vaishnavism in India) - Spirit ultimately created matter.
Spirit -> Matter -> Spirit -> Matter....

It's the chicken and egg dilemna. Which one came first?

[chatanga1]

7 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

No then it is called Vaishnavism.

Are both espoused in SGGS?

[BhagatSingh]

On 2016-10-06 at 0:43 PM, chatanga1 said:

Are both espoused in SGGS?

You won't see any verses in Guru Granth Sahib explaining who an ideal Shakat is or who an ideal Shaiv is. But you have several poems talking about the ideal Vaishnav.

What does that tell you?

Edit- Another thing to note is that 'Shakat' is used as a pejorative in Guru Granth Sahib.

[BhagatSingh]

On 2016-10-05 at 4:42 PM, Guest Wake Up said:

While I disagree on the other topic with you regarding imperative vs cultural comparison, the above you have written is perfectly coherent, and is the truth to existence how I understand it. This sums it up:

ਜੋਤਿ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਜਾਤਿ ਕੀ ਜੋਤੀ ॥
Joṯ kī jāṯ jāṯ kī joṯī.
The creation is born of the Light, and the Light is in the creation 

If you'd like a direct perspective on the subject or even to just see how another different path (Rosicrucian) explain be very same concept I recommend a book called the Kybalion by Three Initiates. You can get ebook copies for about a US dollar. 

Yes exactly! This verse sums it up.

Thus we get the hierarchy that I talked about in my first post -

1 Vishnu (Universal Consciousness, Father, Oneness)
2 Maya (The World, Mother, Duality)
3 Vishnu (Local Consciousness, Son, Perception of Duality)

This is why Vishnu is known as ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ - Shri Niwas, the house of all things, the world, Maya, who is known as Shri. Vishnu is the home of Shri, thus known as Shriniwas.


In the universal consciousness exists the world. (God created Nature)

v
In the world exists universal consciousness as local consciousness. (nature gave birth to Man)

v
In the local consciousness exists the world as perception. (Man perceived Nature in his mind)

v
In the perception exists perceived local consciousness. (In his perception exists other men)

v
In the perceived local consciousness exists the perceived perception. (He perceives the other men perceiving him)

v
To infinity (He sees others seeing him seeing others seeing him....)
 

[chatanga1]

On 07/10/2016 at 7:18 PM, BhagatSingh said:

You won't see any verses in Guru Granth Sahib explaining who an ideal Shakat is or who an ideal Shaiv is. But you have several poems talking about the ideal Vaishnav.

What does that tell you?

That in the Guru's times the Vaishnavs didn't know what a true Vaishnav was, and were deluded.

[BhagatSingh]

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

That in the Guru's times the Vaishnavs didn't know what a true Vaishnav was, and were deluded.

If that was the only reason then Guru Sahibs would have said similar things about Shakats and Shaivs, and talk about who the ideal Shakat is and who the ideal Shaiv is. However Shakat is used as a pejorative and Shaivs are not talked about.

I think this is because Guru sahib is referring to his own group of people. When he is talking about Vaishnavs, he is talking about his sikhs. He is talking about the larger group that includes him and his sikhs.

So he talks about the ideal member of his group, and what he is like.

[chatanga1]

1 hour ago, BhagatSingh said:

I think this is because Guru sahib is referring to his own group of people.

I think that may a very broad way of looking at it.

[BhagatSingh]

On 2016-10-13 at 3:12 PM, chatanga1 said:

I think that may a very broad way of looking at it.

Yea that is if you only look at this one shabad.

When you consider Guru Sahib's other bani then it ties together very well.