truthseeker546

so what your saying is we are (to give another example) in the matrix and the Gurus are kind of like Morpheus and Neo - going around freeing people from that state of "sleep" to awake to the realisation of what is real. But that concept is shared in Abhramic faiths also, hence the movie. So again, what you're saying is everybody is God and those much as the Guru who has overpowered the ego are like God? Along with the problems that brings, what your saying is if I get rid of my ego (as hard as that may be) I wuld be no different then Guru Angad or Arjun etc

Where is this quote from ... SGGS? OK - your statements are self contradictory at times I'm finding it difficult to understand what exactly you are conveying. When you say All are God - what do you mean ? Are they inspired by God - i.e. holy ghost idea.or is everyone literally God - as Jesus in Christianity. Now you say that the difference between the Gurus and everyone else is that everyone else has an ego and the Gurus didn't. We can however reach their rank by losing the ego. So anyone that has lost their ego is the same as God himself? how do you reconcile that with the oneness of God? And if God coexists with the ego in normal human beings - and for most people the ego is stronger then say the God within them, what does that say about the power of God? weaker then the ego. When you say the Gurus were God - what do you mean, THE God in human form, or humans inspired by GOD that don't have an ego?

so in effect you're saying the Gurus were n more important than anyone else - as God is in everyone? How do you explain the problem of evil ?

OK Thanks @Satkirin_Kaur For some reason someone closed down my holy cow post - I was rather enjoying my little discussion with Paapiman, but I see why it was closed. It was interesting while it lasted. Anyway back to this .... OK Sticking to you Satkirin. - is Sikhism is an absolute pantheistic religion - that is to say God is his creation? So not only is God the 10 Gurus but also the Mughal Kings as well ? Am I correct in understanding what you are saying?

I've restarted the Gods and Gurus page - please put all of those comments on that post please.

Due to other posts that keep linking back to this one - I want to start this again. Starting again and taking into consideration different sects within Sikhism that have different views can people please state the sect they belong to, so I don't confuse anyone. question 1 - Where the Gurus God or human beings?

Slightly connected: I know some Hindus drink cow urine and some even eat cow dung, as they believe the cow is holy and it's defecation is nutritious. Are some Sikhs the same in that regard ?

Not that I'm aware - thought ancient religious would worship goats, and believe that had some supernatural powers. Greek mythology being one, since you're free to chose from previous religions, why not that one. I was hoping Sikhism would set up and give it holy status as it's obvious produces milk, which on some regards is better then cows milk. AND has other benefits. Google goats milk : you'll see its virtues. What you think Paapiman? can it be holy?

@paapiman - what sect are you?

@paapiman It's an open forum, I talk to everyone and try to include as many people in the discussion as possible. Really? how so?

@paapiman There is a big difference between laws the help bring about a common cohesive environment - laws which are agreed upon by most of the members of a society, including women, ethnic minorities, religious minorities etc These would be banning acts of public nudity, public sex etc - as they are banned in secular western countries. And say religious law which are not agreed upon by everyone – say killing cows for food. That’s discrimination and religious intolerance.

@paapiman No I didn't lie. I did however make a mistake. I assumed you had said something when in fact it someone else. I'm sorry you never said Sikhism is free from Hinduism, that was someone else. I think the problem is we have lots of different people here and of course different sects within Sikhism, I'm confusing different people. It would help me a great deal if people can put there sects next to their name so I know where you are coming from? What are you Paapiman?

Oh great the buffalo has made it to the holy animal list now. Congratulations are in order for the buffalo. Let's see, I prefer goats milk myself, can I get a vote for the humble goat. 1) I think its special because it not only give nutritious milk, Goats milk has; less sugar content then cows milk and more calcium, magnesium, potassium, vitamin C, Vitamin A and protein then cows milk. 2)This super nutritious milk is also used to make awesome cheese - feta is my personal favourite. Other awesome cheeses from the Goat : humdoldt fog, Saint-Maure de Touraine and Chevre ! So many varieties around the world. Please see : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goat_cheese for world Goats cheeses. 3)The goat also give very important wool, which cows don't. the cashmere goat provides cashmere - one of the most important materials for my soft jumpers. ;-) The Angora goats provide the wool to make Mohair - another important material for clothing. In fact there are over twenty different types of fibre that can be obtained from various species of Goats globally, maybe more. Common on guys - if that doesn't say Mommy - I don't know what does.

@paapiman OK - so you admit you pick and choose from other faiths?

@paapiman I'm sorry but I can't seem to make you see logical points, maybe I'm not explaining it properly. There are a lot of things about the nature of God and other religions, I'll copy and paste this onto the other post Gods and Gurus.- so I won't address them here. OK. - "Almighty God's command is to protect cows. We will do it. If we rule the world, we won't force people to believe that cow is an estimable animal or like a mother. They can treat cow, just like other animals, but they won't be allowed to butcher cows. They are like mothers to us. What will you do if someone comes to butcher your mother? " I think you missed my point entirely. What I was trying to say is regardless of your belief about anything, how can you force that idea on another people. For instance you believe that the cow is like your mother, so you won't allow even other people to kill the cow for meat. That's forcing your beliefs on others? you seem to take this reference of mother literally when it comes to stopping people eat beef, - or is the cow is just like your mother in all regards/ Like SatKirin and others have pointed out there is a lot of hypocrisy, Is anyone drugging your mother so she produces more milk? What will you do if someone comes to butcher your mother, I would be outraged, so how would you feel if someone tried milking your mother? I should think that would be quite offensive, so why isn't it when you milk the cow? obvious difference? I would also imagine you don't keep your mother in the barn or whatever they use in the Punjab, etc etc. you see what I'm getting at. There is an obvious difference between a cow and your mother.

I'm assuming the long guest post was Satkririn. If it wasn't thanks anyway. OK to tackle that post first : I agree with the hypocrisy thing of the first paragraph. I would go further and say any religious person should have respect for all animals and mother nature as a whole. Just find the hypocrisy interesting when scripture gets involved. You made some interesting points about God and his relations to our world. - as this is not the topic for this I will copy and past those paragraphs on my earlier post about Gods and Gurus and we can discuss this more over there. You made some points of general animal welfare - I fully respect your opinions. however I was looking at the cow issue from a Sikh scripture/historical perspective. As aforementioned Sikhs have gone to war (killed humans) to protect cows - due to their understanding/interpretations of Sikki. I'm questioning that idea - where does it come from and how does it fit into greater Sikki thought. For me it doesn't. your point on : "Those passages which say 'a cow without milk is useless' are pointing to the fact that cows were commonly kept for milk back then, and nothing more." : well that's one interpretation - however it also says "birds without wings" - no one kept birds without any wings - I think its alluding to something else (naam and mind like you suggested) however the fact that the examples that are given are commonly accepted. A bird that has no wings is pretty useless - can't do anything. Interesting that the cow would be mentioned in this example. Thanks

OK thanks for your replies - @Satkirin_Kaur - Thanks for your notes - your 100% correct. The hypocrisy is mind blowing, not that I have an issue with that as it's not my religion. However although this not a main stream theological issue, the "religious" reasoning applied to certain beliefs/ideas are used all over Sikhism. During the times of Gurus till now... they don't make sense. I absolutely agree with you @Satkirin_Kaur so great :) - I'm still having issues understanding the dichotomy in the SGGS, can you find out for me why there is a contradiction. @Paapiman - let's start with logical issues - maybe that will help with the cow problems. "Claiming to be from God is different from started by Almighty God himself, in physical form. It should be elementary to understand" OK - lets let this step by step. 1 - All religion claim to be from God and have at some point (via an intermediary or otherwise) have been started by God. 2- Christians believe Jesus was God, or the Son of God/ so Christianity was started by God himself. Hows that different to what you are claiming. 3- The fact that you are Sikh and you might "believe" your religion is true and that Sikhism was indeed started by God himself, and the other religions are not true (at least not in their current form) does not make your stance any more truer then say a Christian who "believes" Christ was the son of God and the Gurus were ordinary people. Matter of prospective depending on what you believe. 4- I tried to address this issue about the belief in Gurus on a thread I called " Gurus and Gods". It seems Sikhs themselves are confused as to what they believe regarding the Gurus. - ie. where they human or Gods. I can reopen that one if you want to discuss this? I understand Satkirin's stance that everybody is God, which has it's own set of issues and problems. Put it simply to say everybody is special, is saying no one is - to say everybody is God means no one is. - How can you blame the Human (God) eating the cow (God)- Sikhism ends up with a lot more issues with this belief. Now back to the cow; lol at your quote from the Gita. On one hand you're claiming Sikhism is a unique religion, free from Hinduism, then you go and quote the Gita as proof. Hummmm. So you get this from Hinduism - is that what your saying. The Gita might say the Cow is holy but the bible sure as hell don't - how can you pick and chose between faiths? As for your comments on protecting cows over humans. OK I can get that in Sikhism some Sikhs consider them pure or holy or like mothers - ignoring all the hypocrisies. But it's only Sikhs and Hindus to my knowledge that give the cow a high status, to everyone else its another animal - no more special than any other. So when you say if Sikhism ruled the world we would ban cow slaughter, and praise people in the past that stopped cow "butchers" (btw otherwise known as normal people) by fighting them - isn't this forcing your beliefs on other people - the very thing Sikh detested about the Mughals ? I'm believe in animal rights, but I don't see the cow any more important then a dog. Why should I be forced to follow Sikki if I were living under Sikhism?

@Xylitol -sorry I missed your post. interesting though however Islam is a Dharam also, so which Dharam do you defend ?

@Satkirin_Kaur - some really good quotes. Thanks! Sorry I hadn't seen your replies so I'm replying a bit late. @Satkirin_Kaur - Your quote seems to confuse more then it helps - lol. Two very contradictory statements - now left to peoples own interpretations to figure out what that means. On one had the cow is useless without milk and on the other God is the cow and the milk - logical conclusion that can be drawn from this; - God is literally the cow and the milk - and he has no purpose and is totally useless when he himself (thw cow) stop producing himself (milk). -What does it mean God is the cow/milk. If this is the reason to stop eating beef as God is the cow then it should also stop people from drinking milk as God is milk also. - If God is the cow - does the cow has the same status as the SGGS ? a bit confused.... @paapiman what is IMHO? I know historically Sikhs have defended the cow - I've mentioned this myself in my posts - I was asking WHY, from scripture. Satkirin has kindly given some evidences above. your point about human suffering over animal protection is well noted - so didn't the early Sikhs think of these questions also - why go to war over cows when so much human rights violation war occurring at that time? " Cows were specifically created by the Almighty God to provide food sustenance. The amount of milk produced by cows/buffaloes is a clear indication of that. Therefore, they act like mothers to humans. The milk of other animals like sheep, camels, etc, is primarily meant for their off-springs and sparingly for human consumption. But, humans tend to over use it for their own needs. " OK- any evidence for this from the texts? According to the Satkirin quote God is the cow himself. At your final reply I can only laugh - your knowledge of other religions - as many Sikhs I've come across, is really tragic. The Abrahamic faiths (Jewdaism, Christianity and Islam) are all from Abraham. They share all the Abrahamic prophets, Moses, Solomon, Joseph etc - Islam sees itself as the final version of that religion. In fact Muslims don't claim to be a new faith, rather a continuation of all the previous Abhrahamic faiths, - as do Christians. The difference being Sikhism doesn't see itself as being a part of Hinduism - yet it obviously shares a lot with the religion. @ your point of : God started Sikhism and Prophets started Abrahamic faiths - I wasn't even going to bother addressing this it was so ridiculous - almost all major religions claim to be from God. Jews believe GOD spoke to Moses, Christian believe Jesus was the Son of GOD and Muslims believe Muhammad spoke to the angel Gabriel who conveyed the message from GOD. I suggest you learn about other faiths as well as your own. Hindu by the way just means someone from India, it refers to the religion relatively recently, so what I mean't is that Indian culture, with influences from the Hindu religion has a huge bearing and affect on Sikhism, it's really obvious if you look at the without bias.

@ Guest ,,, umm I don't even know what points you are referring to dude. @Chatanga ... Wool and eggs (food) are not considered necessities in life ? That's rather biased don't you think, rather depends on your situation. OK coming back to this argument AGAIN - let's try explaining it a different way ... Let assume the cow is "pure" as it produces milk, which according to some would be more essential then the products produced by other animals. So I take it then a cow that has gone dry and can no longer produce milk, or male cattle (ie. bulls) are then not given this status as they no longer / or can't give milk. That would then put then in the same category as every other animal. No one has mentioned anything about other animals that are the main producers of milk on other parts of the world - eg. Goats, camels The point I'm making is that it's obvious that the cow - as are a lot of other things in Sikhism (gender relations, Gods, mythology) are idiosyncratic to Indian culture/history, greatly linked to a Hindu vernacular that rapidly loses its meaning outside the subcontinent. Still waiting for that quote from SGGS by the way ...

Thanks Paapiman for looking for me !!! much appreciated. Also I don't want to get into a debate about the differences between Dassam granth and Guru Granth. But I've spoken to many Sikhs including on this forum that have said dto me they don't believe in the Dassam granth as it can't be verified and its apparent polytheistic beliefs of Hindu Gods etc - not to mention the more controversial chatriopakhyan chapter. Like I said its a different topic, don't want to start that here. I know lots of Sikhs hold both granths on the same level - however I've stopped using the Dassam Granth as a source of Sikhism, due to the mentioned reasons. I can understand Satkirin's point of respecting all life on earth. - that to me makes sense - but that seems to be Satkirin's personal choice - as many non religious westerns also make - that's not specific to Sikhism. The modern way of producing food is extremely cruel to animals, Just have to watch any documentary on how animals are treated in the west in the food process - eggs for example are taken from hens, the male chicks, not having a use are simply killed - in most cases simply left out in the cold to die - in the thousands. Don't see anyone getting upset over that - The point of this thread was why is the cow specifically given higher regard in Sikhism? All the arguments given so far have fallen very short.

I appreciate that you yourself see now difference between the dasam Granth and the SGGS , but of course for lots of Sikhs there are too many questions marks over the Dassam Granth. The second part about my opinion about the Gurus was just that an opinion. You're right it can be started on another thread but I'm not really interested in starting that particular topic.

Thanks Paapiman - I did ask about where that quote was from ... still waiting. It's obviously not from the SGGS Yes for Sikhs all the Gurus are the same ... as a non Sikh I don't see it that way. I see obvious differences in a lot of things between them, especially between the first and last guru.

Humm ... and I thought men and women were "equal" in Sikhism.

Thanks chatanga1 OK. You said you don't eat any animals that provide sustenance? All animals that are killed for meat give some type of sustenance. Chicken = eggs Goats/cows/buffalo/ camels = milk, sheep = wool fish = caviare/fish oil etc - you mentioned cows, buffaloes, horses, elephants and dogs. why not the sheep or the chicken. In fact according to one scientific study if all the insects on this planet died, all life on earth would die within 50 years - As they are vital to the eco-system. Why aren't they holy? I guess why are some animals chosen based on bias culturally specific ideals and not all animals - as they are Gods creations - or as some would say on this forum - God in a form of his creation? Also I'm not sure if you read all the posts but it seems according to kdsingh80 - 80% of the milk in the Punjab is actually from buffaloes. So is the buffalo revered now more then the cow? OK - So now Guru ever went tot battle or (at least the early ones) ever mention the cow being any more special then any other animal - thanks. I wonder if everyone on this forum agrees.