amandeepm

Sukhsikh Read the previous posts - there aint no Sikhs in that photograph! This thread shoudl be renamed 'Maharajah Ranjit SIngh (FAKE picture)'

they guy behind the website is someone called Harjinder Kanwal - Ive never met him just corresponded with him Aman

CS Chan obvioulsy has a great interest and passion for Sikh heritage but he simply cant help polluting the propogration and preservation of sikh heritage with his own blend of hearsay, myth, falcification and fraud. He simply makes things up - whether that is the picture in question , or the provenance of his manuscript colleciton or the supposed ownership of many of his artefacts. I stopped interacting with him years ago but he clealry cant help taking interesting items and associating them with the Gurus or other well-known famous sikhs to add value to these items. I dont know if he then sells them to gullible sikhs or not - alhtough I do know a couple of poeple that hav ebeen 'burned' by him in the past. I woudl take EVERYTHING that he (and his chela) say with a huge pinch of salt. the annoying this is that he does have some nice things in his collection (from what I have seen) but nothing remarkable that I have seen. I undertsand that he is quite unwell at the moment Amandeep

Settle Down - This is not Maharajah Ranjit Singh - Both Parmjit and I are 100% certain of this, let me try to lay out the facts: 1. The earliest experiments in photography were carried out in 1839 (the year the M died) by the mid 1840s there was a type of practical portrait photgraphy - and the very first camera was bought to India by a English Surgeon called John McCosh in 1849 - 10 years after the M died. Even then the quality of the pics was incredibly grainy. 2. anyone that has worked with Antique photos (like Parm and I have) can quickly tell you that the picture there is dated c1860 - 1880 just by looking at the quality of the print 3. The main character in the photograph is Sher Ali the Governer of Sindh, he is surrounded by his Pathan Bodyguards and the British guy is Lord Minto - these are all very well known and well photographed faces of the 1860s. 4. This picture is part of a well known set of pictures that show the meeting of Lord Minto (then Gov gen of India) with Sher Ali in Amballa in 1865 5. This picture was 'discovered' as a Sikh picture by the well known fraudster C S Chan of Coventry - if he says it was the Maharajah then it definitely is not !! Sorry to burst your bubble but that aint no Sikh maharaja Aman

The Times (London) March 02, 2004 Imperial Lather By Michael Binyon The sad tale of the last of the Sikh emperors illuminates the strange contradictions of the British Raj THREE overgrown graves in a Suffolk churchyard are all that remain of one of the proudest dynasties to rule India. The only visitors today are the growing number of British Sikhs eager to visit the resting place of the last exiled claimant to the Sikh empire in Punjab. What they will find is evidence of a family born into fabulous wealth, kidnapped by British imperialists 150 years ago, adopted as an exotic talisman by Queen Victoria, stripped of their empire and religion and cast adrift in the land of their conquerors. Maharajah Duleep Singh was charming, handsome, reckless and scandalous. He was an intimate of dukes and earls. The Queen showered affection on him, as did the Prince Consort. The Government paid his gaming debts while spying on his family. Courtesans vied for his attention and diplomats thwarted his attempts to regain his throne. When he died, a pauper, in 1893, he was forgotten even by his countrymen. None of his eight children ever returned to rule the ancestral homeland. None produced any children. All that remains of his wealth is the Koh-i-noor, the fabulous diamond that he once placed in Victoria’s hand and which now adorns the late Queen Mother’s state crown. A new book tracing the tragic story of “Queen Victoria’s maharajah†has now revealed in scores of family photographs the extraordinary attempt to transform a conquered Indian ruler into a Christian English gentleman. It shows in startling imagery the contradictions of Empire — the relationship of love and loyalty between the deposed Sikh ruler and the newly created Empress of India, the godmother to his eldest son. It also depicts the dilemma that has haunted many other migrants: was Duleep Singh the anglicised gentleman his guardians earnestly wished to make him or the warrior whose destiny was to regain his stolen kingdom? When Duleep Singh was born in 1838, Britain was engaged in a fierce struggle for Punjab. His regent mother led a revolt, which was crushed. The British imprisoned her, annexed Punjab, deposed the 11-year-old maharajah in 1849 and entrusted him as a ward of the Government to a Scottish army surgeon, Dr John Login. He was granted an annual allowance of £40,000. Stripped of his Punjabi servants and baptised a Christian in 1853, he sailed for England a year later. He played cricket, was used to European dress (although he always wore three rows of enormous pearls) and was eager to adopt the ways of an Englishman. The Queen received him at Buckingham Palace and was immediately enchanted. Prince Albert designed a coat of arms for him. He was awarded the Grand Cross Star of India. He made friends with the Prince of Wales, was portrayed in oils, given a bible by Lord Dalhousie (the conqueror of Punjab and jailer of his mother), tutored in German and Italian and given a residence, first in Wimbledon and then at Roehampton. He began a social whirl. But life began to pall. He yearned to go back to India. The Government was wary, but he set sail and in 1861 had an emotional reunion with his embittered mother. Both were persuaded to return to England, and, stopping off in Cairo, he met the 16-year-old Bamba, daughter of an Abyssinian and a German banker, whom he determined to marry — although they had to talk through an interpreter. They set up residence at Elveden Hall, in Suffolk, to live the life of a country squire. But his life became dissolute. He took mistresses, fathered illegitimate children, ran through his allowance and begged for more. Fired by his late mother’s stories of British injustice, he wrote a book on Britain’s plunder of India that infuriated the Government. Disillusioned and determined to regain his throne, he left for India in 1885 and a year later was re-initiated into Sikhism. But a spy was planted in his entourage and learnt, to Government horror, that he had approached the Russians to help reconquer Punjab. Nothing came of it, although he spent a miserable two years in Moscow. Eventually he had to return and in an emotional meeting with the Queen wept and begged official pardon. By now he was a broken man. Bamba had died and he had married his mistress Ada, a chambermaid he met at Cox’s hotel in Jermyn Street. In 1893 he suffered an epileptic fit and died. His funeral at Elveden had a wreath from the ever-indulgent Queen and another from the Prince of Wales “for auld lang syneâ€. His children forged indifferent careers. The Eton-educated Victor gambled away his money, his sober second son Frederick became a respected historian and Suffolk squire and one daughter, Princess Sophie, became a suffragette. The daughters raised funds for Indian soldiers in both world wars, and the eldest, Princess Bamba, died, a recluse, only in 1957. By then their homeland had been partitioned between India and Pakistan. And with her died the dynasty of the warrior Sikhs. The Duleep Singhs by Peter Bance is published by Sutton Publishing, Pre Order through Amazon.co.uk on http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0...aharajahduleeps

Dear Lalleshvari & Sikhawarness Sangat Your perspective on the French Turban issue are without doubt the most well-informed that I have heard since this entire issue erupted a few weeks back. It was a great shame that the previous thread was misinterpreted and then twisted into an excuse for a personal attack and was, as a result, locked out. I really cannot add anything to your posting at all as I (like many others) speak from no position of authority in this matter. What interests me a great deal more than the specific issue is the wider point about the quality of the leadership, the response from the (French Sikh) community and the response from the Sikhs community around the world. We don’t need yet more examples of how badly let down Sikhs are by the people who often physically fight each other for the privilege of calling themselves our leaders. Whether the example is in Birmingham, Southall, Vanvcouver, Amritsar or the rather obscure Sikh Sangat of Paris. Whether the issues are spiritual, political, communal or social the abject failure of Sikh leaders (largely blokes who run gurdwaras) is there on the record for all to see. I know that your detractors will scream that if you (or I) think that we are better we should do something rather than criticise. Well, anyone that has ever had their fingers burnt by community politics and the absolute filth that pollutes the entire arena of community/Gurdwara politics is well advised to remain largely aloof from entering. Its also really interesting to note that the Sikh community around the world is quickly seduced into all kinds of action when it 'feels' attacked by outside forces and not internal apostasy. Examples include Kerrys recent comments, the French thing, the 9-11 response, Muslim conversions, RSS. But when it comes to some of our self-generated problems we quickly lose interest. The state of Sikh Heritage in Punjab and India is shocking but barely raises a communal eyebrow, Sikhs shrug their shoulders when the SGPC makes uninformed and ill educated proclamations, Sikhs wring their hands at the wholesale abuse of basic Sikh practices in gurdwaras around the world. When our faith and it’s community voice is hijacked by thinly veiled terror groups and religious fanatics we collectively stare at our feet with our hands in our pockets and let them continue. Its seems we thrive on an environment of persecution (see Sikh Diaspora board) while our spiritual practices, our heritage, our beautifully diverse traditions and our egalitarian and modern faith seemingly rots and decays. I don’t really offer any solutions I am afraid, just a response to your really excellent and really insightful note about the Turbans in France issue. As a new parent I really do feel that its going to be a tough environment for my little one to grow up in if well-informed and erudite commentators like you are shouted down, for exposing some of the home truths that we otherwise like to pretend are not there. Aman PS – I thought this was so important an issue that I even spell checked this note (apologies for some previous postings poor typing)

On another Sikh discussion board on the Net I saw a posting on this very subject that blamed Kerry's comments on the power of the Government of India's campaign of misinformation against the Sikhs. The basic thesis was thet Kerry has basically picked up the anti Sikh propoganda put about by the GOI from its agents in Washington and Kerry was simply repeating that. This view was clearly shared by a number of respondants to that posting. It got me thinking that the Sikh representaiton (MPs) within the Lok Sabha in New DElhi really have their work cut out if indeed there is this campaign going on . . . then I read the article (below ) in the Tribune . To paraphrase the article, it says that Sikh intelligencia are appealing to teh Akali Dal to stop sending illiterate MPS to Delhi ! It catalogues a long list of Akali MPs who have been illiterate or semi literate - even the literate ones have remained silent on virtually every and any issue regaridng Sikhs. It seems that there is actually an Akali campaign against teh Sikhs !!- by sending the least able and least articulate people to Delhi the SIkhs in Punjab are being denied any representation at all in the seat of power in India. Furthermore, I cannot imagine the ridicule with which Sikhs are considered by the rest of the Lok Sanha. If it wernt quite so serious it woudl be funny! Aman SAD under ‘pressure’ to field educated candidates Varinder Walia Tribune News Service Amritsar, February 3 It is a sort of history that most of Akali Members of Parliaments have never uttered even a single word on the floor of the Lok Sabha during their tenures. The reason: majority of the Akali candidates were ‘illiterate’ or ‘semi-illiterate’. Sikh intellectuals now have started lobbying for fielding educated candidates so that the case of ‘Punjab, Punjabi and Punjabiat’ could be taken up in right perspective. They said that the Akali MPs had failed to get the Operation Blue Star condemned in the Lok Sabha or the Rajya Sabha, apart from opposing POTA. The exceptions are that of Sirdar Kapur Singh, a former ICS officer, Mr Ajit Singh Sarhadi and Mr Hukam Singh, a former Speaker of the Lok Sabha who took up certain issues of the Sikhs. One of the most memorable case taken up by Sirdar Kapur Singh in Parliament was that of making tehsil instead of village as unit of deciding the transfer of left-out Punjabi-speaking areas into Punjab. The Akali leaders like Mr Gurcharan Singh Tohra, Mr Jagdev Singh Talwandi and even Mr Parkash Singh Badal who had their stints as Lok Sabha or Rajya Sabha MP remained docile in Parliament’s sessions. The Parliamentary constituency of Bathinda had created a history of sorts by sending ‘illiterate MPs’ of Akali Members of Parliament. It was their good luck that despite their poor educational background, they had been winning with heavy margins. So much so Mr Kikkar Singh, a driver of Sant Fateh Singh, the then president of the SAD won from Bathinda constituency in 1967. Mr Dhanna Singh Gulshan who was ‘semi-literate’ was elected from Bathinda (reserve) became Union Education Minister. Mr Sucha Singh Maloa (who had humble educational background), father of Beant Singh — one of the assassins of Indira Gandhi during the general elections to Parliament in 1989 had failed to take up any case of the community or of his constituency on the floor of Parliament. Akalis, with poor educational background was Teja Singh Dardi or Mr Chetan Singh Samaon who were elected from the same constituency could not perform well in Parliament. The ‘Tur family’ which had been given Akali ticket from Tarn Taran for their contribution to the ‘Panth’ could not bring any big project for the ‘Majha region’ which had elected Mr Mohan Singh Tur and his two sons Mr Lehna Singh Tur and Mr Tarlochan Singh Tur many times in the past. The history of Parliament could be traced to show their (Tur family’s) dismal performance in Parliament. Mr Gurdass Singh Badal, younger brother of Mr Parkash Singh Badal, had also failed to record his speeches in Parliament. Mr Parkash Singh Badal, who himself became Union Agriculture Minister later preferred to resign so that he could take active part in the state’s politics. Due to inability of Akali MPs to take up Punjab’s issues, the Congress Parliamentarian, Jagmit Singh Brar had earned the name of ‘Punjab di awaz’ by highlighting the issues of Punjab and the Sikh issues. Though the SAD had sent certain MPs like Mr Harinder Singh Khalsa, Mr Surjit Singh Barnala, Mr Sukhbir Singh Badal and Mr Prem Singh Chandumajra but their contribution could be described as that of average Parliamentarians negligible. With this background, the Sikh intellectuals have asked the Akali high command to field highly educated candidates.

First of all - I am British so I probably shouldnt even comment on this but in case anyone is interested in an outiders view, read on. Be careful in attacking the loose language employed by politicians. Kerry was on the stumps and was responding to a question. He was absolutely wrong in saying that India suffered from terrorism from Sikhs. He didnt refer to the IRA as Catholics or Al-Queda as Muslims - he should have named the terrorist organisations not the faith group. That is the error that he made and it simply is an ill thought out remark. I only say this because, whilst I dont follow American politics, I do recall John Kerry being one of the earliest US law makers (in fact maybe the first) to sign in some of the Hate Crime laws that US Sikhs rightly called for after 9/11. I also recall him speaking very publicaly and very passionately on NBC (I think) about the 'anti americanism' of the backlash against Arabs, South Asians and Sikhs in the aftermath of 9/11. We should seek to correct his statement but do it very diplomatically otherwise Sikhs in the US are liable to lose a good friend in Washington. Aman

The treatment of Mazbi Sikhs by the Budha Dal is indeed seemingly at odds with the egalitarian principles of Sikhism. Whilst the Dal are quite open about how they treat Mazbi Sikhs in the Dal and even how women are adminstered amrit (also slightly differntley) I have never been satisfied with the reasons that they have for these differences. I would also ben keen to hear hwo the Dal reconciles this - and if indeed this is somethign that is defended or just a fact of life in Indian society. In Oberoi's book 'Construction of Religious Boundaries' there are a number of refernces to how 'low caste' sikhs were treated in the late 19th century iunclduing a seperate Ghat at the Sarovar of the Marimandir where they had to bathe seperately. Fortunately even the SGPC with its rampant disregard for Sikh values and its own Jatt nepotism does not continue to propogate this vile practice. Finally on Nihal Kaurs Q re:high and low castes I woudl be keen to understand the heirarchy within 'castes' or biradaris as well. Within the Khatri Sikh community there is a well established pecking order, but what is it within Ramgharias and Jatts? Aman

Dear N30 Oral tradtions and belief are perfectly legitimate views to hold, and its perfectly legitimate to follow a belief based on someone that you wholeheartedly trust - nothing at all wrong in that. All I am pointing out is that the document under question does not exist so you shoudnt rely on it. Furthermore you should remain suspicious of any "evidence" until you know absolutely that it exists. As Sikhs we are extremely prone to falling for hoaxes and hearsay without checking the facts. I recall back in the early days of the Khalsa Net (1992ish) there was a series of hoax travelogues that recounted horrendous stories of the treatment of Sikh travellers to Punjab at teh hands of virtaully every Indian that crossed their path. as a frequest traveller to india at the time and a Sikh these were not the experiences that I ever had. But reading between the lines it was quite clear that these were simply part of a wider campaign of driving division between Sikhs and Hindus in Punjab. More recently some of the stories of Sikh abduction & conversion by Muslims are decidely dodgy as has bene pointed out on this site and others. I woudl simoky urge caution. Amandeep

This 'eyewitness' account does not exist at Aligarh University. In fact it doesnt exist at all. Its a myth and always has been, its been a convinient vehicle used by parcharaks, gianis and Sants to push one agenda or another under the guise of soem kind of historical legitimacy. If you want to push some kind of view of what happened then you can make your argument even more powerful by claiming that an actual eyewitness to history was there and support your view. And, on the basis that Sikhs never check facts and rarely go to authoratative sources of history then you can convinently hide behind a mysterious document at some dusty, far away university archives. About three years ago JS Grewal edited a volume titled Sikh History from Persian Sources which contains virtaully all the fragments of Sikh histiry written in Persian from Aligarh University. The translators and co editors included some of the university's most senior academics on the Islamic history of India. Unsurprisingly this document does not figure amongst their researches simplyu because it does not (and never has) existed. It is worthwhile getting hold of Grewals book though. Aman

Seven Seconds attention span of the average web reader !! If the long loading times do put off anyone with a 7 second attention span then that is no bad thing - If anyone genuinly wants to learn about something about the true diversity and richness of our faith and cannot contemplate this fro more than 7 seconds then they really should just give up. That actually shouldnt surprise me given the quality of thought that some of the detractors to the informaton on the website. I found a great deal of really fascinating material on the SV website - probably far too much for a web page - the authors of the site really should consider a proper academic publication Aman

I dont think that we can blame the SGPC for the UK campaign - certainly their ideals were very strong in the sikhs that lead that campaign. You have to remember taht in the days that the campaign was run the only sikhs who wanted to ride bikes were generally oderl guys who wanted to run scooters or mopeds, and of course you coudl argue that tehe danger is a great deal less than a 250cc Japanese sports bike that are availabel today. aman

It is the case that Sikhs wore helmets during the 19th centory and before. It makes pereftc sense to use whatever protection can be afforded and Sikh warriors from the earliest times certyainly did not make a doctrinal stand on wearing helmets. We should also be mindful that Sikhs during teh two World Wars were not instructed by teh British Officers to wear helmets and did indeed go into many dangerous situations unprotected. I woudl imagine that hundreds if not more were injured or killed as a result of not wearin helmets. Is this a price worth paying ? British Sikhs fought hard inthe 1960s to not wear motorcyle helmets even though it is a proven fact that helmets save lives. At soem stage soem young sikh boy will be killed or horribly maimed becasue of a motorcyle accident which woudl have been avoided by the wearing of a helmet. Should this heppen it will reignite the whole debate over rights and responsibilities and I fear that the sikh case for exclusion will be strongly challenged. IN these circumstances I certainly woudl not want to be supporting a doctrinal case for not wearing helmets infront of a greiving mother ! Aman

To return to the original question and to muddy the waters further, here are my two cents:There is little question that Banda became a Sikh of Gurū Gobind Singh. There is some contention over whether he took Khande di Pahul and became a Khālsa Sikh. Hari Ram Gupta is strongly of the opinion that Banda was not baptised into the Khālsa fraternity (History of the Sikh Vol II pp4-6) . Citing largely political reasons as the motivator, Gupta quotes from Rattan Singh Bhangu’s Prachin Panth Prakash and Giani Gian Singh’s Panth Parkash. Other historians have also supported this view, Kartar Singh Kalaswalia, bab Bhdur, 1924 (Gurmukhi), Karam Singh Historian in Jiwan Britant Baba Banda Bahadur, Chief Khālsa Diwan (Gurmukhi), Bhai Sohan Singh, Banda the Brave pp 27-28, Daulat Rai xx, Sir Denzil Ibbetson, A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province, Vol 1, Lahore (1919) pg 698 and Khazan Singh, History and Philosophy of the Sikh Religion, Lahore 1914, pg 207. Gupta, further quoting Santokh Singh’s Suraj Granth states; ‘He was not in accord with the Khālsa. Without the Gurū’s approval he started his own sect. He did not take baptism of the dagger. He did not adopt the Sikh way of life. He did not eat meat and drink wine, and did not wear black clothes’. Given the obvious contradictions in this quotation and the availability of no contemporaneous accounts one must look elsewhere for any evidence to the contrary. This is provided by a number of equally eminent historians, namely; Ahmed Shah Batalia, Zikre Guran wa Ibta-I-Singhan wa Mazhab-I-Eshan, Page 11), Ali-ud-Din Mufti, Ibrta Nama pp 39 and Kanihya lal, Tarikh-I-Punjab pp56, which states that ‘in spite of the fact the he belonged to a Bairagi Sect he became a disciple of Gurū Gobind Singh and, having taken pahul became a Sikh of the Gurū’. Further credible sources pointing to Banda becoming a Khālsa Sikh are provided in Banda Bahudur , Dr GS Deol, new Acedemic Publishing 1972, pp23-25. Hope this helps Aman PS - the section above is some (now discarded) text from our forthcoming book "Sicques, Tigers or Thieves": Eyewitness Accounts of the Sikhs (1606-1809), NeW York:Palgrave Macmillan, forthcoming.