Sukhi

sure they do. but the child raised by animals would probably want to procreate with what he considers a part of his/her accepted community. and "civilized" humans aren't exactly part of that accepted circle.

hmmm... well i think it's been established earlier on in this thread that kaam isn't limited to sexual desire. kaam is desire, pure and simple. whether it's lust for sex, for things that are pink (beast comes to mind here), or whatever else. the point is not to let kaam control everything you do. we're not supposed to let it take over our lives. having said that, i think that for a married couple it's important that they have sex/make love however they want, simply because i think it's an important part of their relationship. it's not the ONLY important part of their relationship. but it's there nonetheless. and i'm gonna let someone else continue on from here... lol...

yeah so what would the kid do? i'm not sure myself. you can't just go from being animalistic all your life to bein a proper pimp the next day cuz you want a family. and who's to say that these kids raised as animals would want a family anyway?

thank you CE. we should have pyar and sharam no matter who we are.

did you see something...? meaning that these kids don't behave like humans. maybe that's part of these kids' karma...? so yeah, the child would survive... to become an animal...?

i actually liked Narsinghi's suggestion. seemed the most appropriate methinks.

hmmm... that was an interesting analogy for basically saying that it's tough to stay balanced on the path. what i was trying to say was that there's nothing external holding you back. it's our mind, it's us, our ignorance. and i could go on and on forever explaining other abstract ideas, but methinks you shall get consufed. lol...

lol @ guv... i noticed that too. and there were other things (ie his assumption that all gay people would be attracted to him). but there was a point to what he was saying. in the case of lesbians, he specified a certain type of feminist that would be most likely to become gay: one who sees the opposite sex as an enemy. but even then, there are plenty of man-hating bra-burning chicas who are "straight". and the same goes for soldiers. hey sexy singh. <- i made that bold in case you couldn't see it. why does homosexuality suck? got any reasons? hell-bound monkey... ... did you notice that too?

... okay, i guess i'll go first then... i don't think there's anything wrong with using contraception for either of the reasons that Pheena put up. please see my reply way up above on this page for more info into why. oh and just to let you know, i'm not exactly anti-abortion either. let's get a discussion going people...

are "paap" and "sin" different?

sorry... i might have something that clarifies what i'm talkin about... i figure that God is enough. but there's more to it than just giving up on everything. there's probably more to the picture of why we have mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, children, friends, etc, than what we can think of. so in essence, my point is that God is enough but only if you consider our human relationships as part of what God has given to us in order to ensure our survival. what i was a little more taken aback by was the fact that she thought that without even having any human influence, the child would survive. thinking back on it, i think it's true. if it's in hukam for someone to come into existence, nothing can stop it. it seems to me that i might not have the same "blind faith" needed to really grasp the possibility of letting go and letting Him/Her/It handle things without the need of human interference. and if you don't understand any of what i said, it's okay. i'm more thinkin out loud right now than anything else.

sorry! lol... i've got a jumble of thoughts, and some of them are interrelated. besides, that last post was written at about 3/4 in the morning. and ye, i WAS hungry come to think of it... :S yes i have.

Amrik, what can take you away from something that is everywhere? you can't escape Waheguru... the reason i ask what sin is (or if it even exists) is because it seems to me that karma doesn't seem to need a definition of good or bad. it's objective. there's no real judgement. what you do, whether you think it's "good" or "bad" is merely going to come back to you. but the concept of sin as i see it is loaded with connotations of "good" and "bad". so i'm going to rephrase my question: what is sin? does the concept of sin have any place in sikhi?

hmmm... Pheena, put up something about male/female energies so we get a clearer idea of what's being discussed.

is there a jail? or have we merely handicapped ourself through our own ignorance?

i've been thinking about the importance of history in one's development as a Sikh recently. that's what this thread is really about. i recently watched a documentary on how gurudwarey that are slightly older have been tiled up instead of having their decor renovated. i consider this an attack not only on our heritage but our history too. my main concern is that we're already going through a massive cultural rehaul in terms of our attitudes to sikhi. we've seen an explosion of some very fundamentalist/totalitarian views that tend to limit and reduce sikhi to being something quite different from what it seems like it should be. i'm not a scholar or a great thinker. but from what i've seen, sikhi isn't necessarily as rigid as many groups make it out to be and it disturbs me to see that our own leaders are destroying our roots. how are future generations supposed to be "true to their roots" if their roots don't even exist any more?

guv, i understand what you're saying. but i think what struck me the most is that... i dunno how to put it into words without sounding like a complete fool like i usually do. for some reason, i happen to think that the relationships we have in this world help us in more ways than mere survival. for example, a mother can teach her child a whole lot more than just how to take care of your hygiene so you dun smell bad and make girls faint when you walk by. mother's can show you the meaning of patience, the meaning of humility, modesty, sacrifice among other things. can our spiritual growth truly be complete without going through the experiences of being a child, a sibling, a friend, a teacher, a husband/wife, a parent or the other roles we encounter in life? i'm not saying that we need to have an immediate "blood" relation to the people you interact with. but don't the people we interact with have more worth than being mere tools of survival...? maybe i'm not being clear in what i'm confused about...

if "i" could answer that question guv, "i" wouldn't be here.

explain please.

truly very interesting. so in essence what he's saying is that homosexuality is unnatural and that it hinders one's spiritual growth because there's no conflict and room for growth because things are similar. i have issues believing that. and the reason i say this is because it seems to me that for a lesbian, it's just as difficult to maintain a relationship with another lesbian. the physical characteristics of the two may be the same, but the mental and emotional challenges remain. anyways. i found what i was looking for. Osho doesn't seem to disrespect homosexuals though. he repeats how he feels that he can't condemn homosexuals but rather feels pity for them because their growth is hindered. so in essence, even though he feels that they're gonna miss out, he doesn't use it as an excuse to put homosexual individuals down.

what is sin? how does it relate to karma?

what's the importance of history? is it significant to you? why or why not?

i am making a request for you to post them. don't say no. do what nike says... just do it!

i had a discussion recently with someone on abortion and whether it was right or wrong. one argument given against abortion is that parents are not important because God can take care of everything. this got me to thinking: if truly God is taking care of everything, then what is the need or rather importance of living in this world? what's the importance of human social relationships on a spiritual level? surely God didn't place us on this human infested planet without thinking that these social interactions were needless. given that everything is an illusion, is there nothing to be gained from being vulnerable and a part of the greater social community?

thank you Pheenu.