ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ

but we are writing / speaking to each other in English now and Not an Indian language? British implies conquered country , colony, or what the Americans call people from UK or as it originally meant it was the greater Brittany ( smaller being in France) from when French Kings ruled UK.. In sort it is England. UK implies Union, of all, anyhow I was born and raised in England...I have the right to be called it as much as anyone..that said I understand your point as most people from immigrant groups will call themselves British. In which case I am a British Punjabi Sikh

that's not what I said...I said later the NF, National Front took over the movement...then it was generally White supremist, but there were also black people in it...the thing to note i that the West Indian's also only spoke English and yes are Christian...us browns were the other in every way, language, food, clothes...we were seen as the alien threat ... going back to this original piece attacks cab from anyone

you just gave it away on here...I tend to try and pronounce my pair bindis so I may be in danger! There are a few actual Sikhs from that area, just as there are Muslims in Pakistan from India who also have Doabi or Malwai accents...though its a good rule of thumb, its not 100% as a result. Sikh girls I know that have gone with Muslims seem to do it out of choice or rebelling in some manner. Then again Muslim and Hindu girls have been known to marry Sikhs as well. The Key is issue is the conversion. Everyone always seems to be olbiged expected to become Muslim. EG Omar Shariff was born catholic but he married a muslim woman and had to convert. And it is definitely that way for women marrying Muslim men. To my knowledge Sikhs don't do that.

its also an audiobook, just google it, may save you reading it! Only they spelt my name dillon

The general giveaway to that will be 1) They will have a Majhi accent, most Sikhs in west have Doabi/ Malwae 2) They do look ..."different" Yeah I know about the Kara thing

I get where you are coming from. I say I am English as by being born here,,,how dare I been denied the right to be called English,,,and I guess I am lucky that I live in a Middle Class Gora area where this is not an issue and Goray know about Sikhs..but if we take UK as a whole I know what you mean, and maybe I am disassociating myself with India based on my hobby of writing in Punjabi ( Threatened by Hindi/ Urdu/English) and frankly 1984 and Modi RSS

I think we are taking the subject away from Tahir Gora channel.,,,,nevermind

yes I agree with you. Many things they do in their community despite our union of language are alien to my sikh upbringing...including marrying relatives or girls half your age etc...language can unite us and create a discourse...but all the rest of these things are so different...I think the worst I have heard ours do is Honour Killings, though allegedly there was a Sikh member of a northern muslin grooming gang in the news some years ago...anyhow my views on this are on display in my story Gunda, which may offend some muslims, but grooming gangs are a fact

ok so that explains Dulla Bhatti and Taken within the same sentence. I think the issue is there is Punjabi Culture ( so the muslims from Pakistan I know are pro punjabi so different from the mullah types) and then Punjabi sub culture, ( dictated by religion? Thus Sikhs and Hindus are different from Muslims, and Hindus are different from Sikhs etc) and then there is Arab culture which overrides a lot of the behaviour and sets the norms. It is also where Islam comes from. This may explain it. The guys I know are more Sufi orientated which means they are of the same ilk as Santan Hindus and thus more in sync with Baba Nanak's Sikhi but not I guess the Khalsa. So then all I can say is the pro punjabi guys seem to be different. It is an interesting point for me that the pro punjabi ones are mainly hailing from within Pakistan and are also targeted as Indian spies or traitors by those that put Islam before national pride. Also that the ones we are talking about may specifically include those in the west who like Sikhs in the west bought the wounds of 47 with them and lets face it are the guys my generation fought in the clubs and pubs in the 80s and 90s because of the hate between our communities at the time. I think many of them further alienated themselves from Pakistan after 9/11 and its consequences and lacking any linguistic connection with the Punjab joined the international Islamic brotherhood in reaction to George Bush etc and now are more like the Arabs you describe. As I said take them individually.. anyhow one thing I am in agreement with you all...whenever I ask them about why they don't critize terrorism or all this grooming, there is no response, yet they are vocal about west picking on them. I have noted the ones I know in Pakistan disassociate themselves with these British products. last night I happen to see a film set in Columbia with a similar storyline to Taken,,so I think it is an international issue not just a muslim one..I also recall that Romanian gangs do it as well Maybe the question should be why are Arabs like this? GurjantGnostic this is my answer to you as well re insight

all I can say is that the pro punjabi muslims I know from Pakistan itself don't give me that impression. Dare I say it that they may be left wing- arty farty in their nature...maybe thus very liberal within the confines of the punjabi culture combined with Islam. Even we have Katar Sikhs. That said they do not reflect the ones in Britain, and those I think since 9/11 and all that, are not the same. One Pakistani Professor put it like this to me years ago..Urdu is a language of hate, Punjabi of love...so I guess you have to take all humans individually as you find them. All Abrahamic Religions are illogical anyhow, but that is just my view..so I think those who consider anyone Kafir/ Heritic/ or Lower caste are all cut from the same cloth..not clothes I want to wear In short it depends who your neighbour is. Grooming is certainly a problem in the UK and is associated with gangs mostly made up of muslim men. I did not think Sex trafficking is permitted though..Yesterday was Lori / Lodi...its most famous person is Dulla Bhatti of Lahore, a muslim who fought Mughals, saving Hindu women. So I don't think it is a religious thing, ( I could be wrong but ask a Muslim woman what she thinks of this) but a cultural arrogance???

so I know I got no replies here. Maybe it is a dumb question. However this is the stuff I got on CitySikhs Facebook. No where above I said Hindus are not included in being Punjabi. I just feel from my experience if I meet an Indian not from Punjab on the train, pretty soon we are speaking in English because there is no common language and not even our food and cultures are in alignment. However on the same train I meet a Punjabi of any background, including Pakistani, we can ( at least the older generation who don't speak Urdu / Hindi as first language) talk in Punjabi and culturally have a lot in common. Also I am finding that the lack of education within people from India is lower than those outside about their own countries! I do believe even we are indoctrinated here and that anyone is and to seek the truth they have to watch the news etc not from their country but an outside one to know the truth.. Anyhow snippets below of some of the ridiculous conversation, allegedly linked to my question . People's ID's have been hidden intentionally by me, but you can find original conversation on CitySikhs facebook site. where would you say Guru Gobind singh ji from? what do you mean when you say Before we became part of India? Weird person man you really need to brush up your history, you know who was Poras? it became Punjab? It was always there. What are you really talking about? We are known for our geographical position than Religious and we always had this identity. his is taking it in the wrong direction. Yes Porus ( real name Puna) was from Majha area of modern Punjab and yes Gobind Singh was not from Punjab, but from Patna, but his ancestry just like ours was Punjabi. Like we speak English in UK, he spoke Barj Bhasha ( Hindi as a language did not exist at the time). so if you know that history, you know this region beyond Indus was always known as warriors. Entire Hinduism belongs to Punjab, all vedas were written on this land, majority of the Rishis were Punjabi including Gorakh Nath, yes but Hindustan is a Mughal regional right down to Tamil Nadu area when they ruled . The term was a western / foreign term for anyone east of river Indus just like European is a term for anyone west of Turkey and Iraq and North of Africa. These are all still separate countries as per language Considering how I defined myself I would say Guru Gobind was Punjabi Heritage, Bihari by birth and being raised ( much like I am English ) initially Hindu by definition then Sikh by being raised in the Sikh community and then Modern Sikh (Khalsa ) created by himself . The issue I raised had nothing to do with the Gurus so why was it taken in that direction ? The issue was of modern India and it being a state in the way I described ing Porus was a famous Indian king, his real name was Purushotama. He belonged to PURU tribe mentioned in RIG VEDA, the Ancient books of India. Porus ruled the Punjab region and expanded his kingdom between the Jhelum River and Chenab River in the Indian Subcontinent. He was a legendary warrior and more war skills. He made the army most powerful with war skills. Even Alexander had also made difficulty to defeat Porus. His parents name didn’t know clearly. However, his son name also Porus. you know the timing between both of these historical events? Now what does any of the above have to do with my question? I'd say it's up to the individual how they define their identity. How much of your identity (as described in detail above) would you say, has been influenced by the events in Panjab, in 1984? There seems to be a concerted effort to nullify aspects of our inherent Hindu identity, as a result of 1984. And to a degree, that's understandable, as justice hasn't been done. The perpetrators remain free, whilst the affected, have suffered and received no justice. That's a fair point. If you note I did state I recognise I am Indian, just India..secondly you will have noted I included Hindu, Sikh, Muslim and Christian within the definition of being Punjabi. So I am very aware of the Hindu and the Buddhist roots long before any of us became Muslim, Christian or Sikh.. It am defining myself by the two languages I know and the languages of those lands. So Yes English because I am raised in UK and educated in English. But Punjabi because I originate from the Indus Valley which is currently still referred in its western region as Punjab. If we go back to the time of the Reg Vida then like an esteemed poster, Ranvir, above has already mentioned, we came from the land of 7 rivers. so no I don't deny my Hindu / Buddhist past. and to deal with your fair point, lack of proper international apology by Congress and the Gandhi family, fake investigations, and the current Right wing ( who this time happen to be SOME Hindu folks) extermists who vote for the current regime inciting hatred by using 1984 monikers on social media etc etc naturally colours my attitude towards India. Is that not understandable? I accept logically of a population of 1 billion Hindus, The RSS mob etc hopefully are not the whole population and no way in 1984 it was a massive part of the population ( If you read my Punjabi fiction you will find its a Hindu character that saves some Sikhs in Delhi 84) who killed Sikhs. But a silent non protesting majority...well that's how Hitler came to power and was able to kill the Jews. You may not see it if you are living in India, but unless Congress and Gandhi family resolve these historical issues and until the current regime doesnt come out of power this is how many Sikhs will feel. Going outside the Sikh aspect, it is logical for me to call myself British / English as I am from here as much as it is logical for a Punjabi Sikh to call themselves Indian, as they are raised there. That is all that means. But yes if you relook at my post the Punjabi Identity includes Hindus and Muslims as well. The language is the identifier in my view and had not the British annexed Punjab today there would be no Pakistan and Ranjit Singh's Punjab at least would have remained independent of modern India ( A British imperial construct) and secular...with Punjabi pride amongst Hindu, Sikh and Muslim Brethren. And my opinion is not fixed or necessarily correct which is why I asked everyone their view. The danger of city sikhs is it has become full of fake RSS trouble makers and no one knows who they are talking to... you or I could have fake Sikh IDs here for example. The admin certainly is prejudice to punjabi language posts also I did say in my individual case...I am not speaking for other Punjabis or Sikhs...merely asking their views Seems like online you dont know who you are talking to nor do they make sense i am beginning to wonder if we should all not comment on social media and only have debates with people physically in front of us? Social Media perpetuates hate and misunderstanding??

agreed with all said

no Skin head movement was more related to music, appropriation of West Indian Culture SKA music etc then got kidnapped by white nationalism. ( NF). Nowadays I think anyone who is brown equals muslim terrorist in the eyes of all these groups in the west. racism is not exclusive to white people. They can even be victims of it. So this was a blunt racist attack on brown people

In those days Black people were Skinheads as well

this is getting worse and worse ...the images suggest not all racists are white... a naïve assumption anyhow

check this person out in that case. Or just type gimmi tv punjabi bethak in youtube https://apnaorg.com/punjabi-baithak/ and yes I am one of them

unity is possible. Nazeer is a FB associate of mine

Let me make clear where I am coming from Based on Origin am I Indian? Yes Based on Birth? No I am English and thus dual inheritor to both cultures Based on Culture? No, I say Punjabi. Now why do I distinguish my last answer? well bullet point wise:- - The reasons given above - A country essentially is established by Language. E,g All if Europe is Christian ( Like most of India is Hindu) but Spain, Greece, Russia and UK, their real cultures are based on their language and food etc. Religion is the final factor. So apply that logic to India and it is 25 separate countries that Invaders such as the Mughals and British made into India / Hindustan. Same with local Indian regional empires - Then based on my logic post 47 India and Pakistan are no more than still part of British Empire. My logic? The law is all in English. Hindi ( a British invented language) and English are used for ruling. How would we feel if we were in a court case an it was conducted in Arabic/ German etc? Same logic. Language comes first. - Ok lets go on the word Hindustan. Enough said. - Following that, 1984 - Literally what is happening now in India..look at all the hate posts on social media, asking for the killing of Sikhs, How different from 80s Congress or 1947? - So am I Indian? No, in my case I am A British / English Punjabi Sikh, my heritage is Punjab, shared with Punjabi speaking Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians / Atheists. Language is key, the all else So agree or bitterly disagree?

agreed. See may answer about the Push Sanskrit Punjabi dictionary..currently I am fighting them / debating with them via the keyboard. Too many so called Punjabi Professors in Indian University who have introduced Hindi words to Punjabi language , books , dictionaries and TV, Same isssue in Pakistan to lesser degree re Arabic etc

that said all this is debatable. I had invented my own words for these. These words were given to me by a Group in the UK/ India trying to create a technical dictionary in Punjabi...my only concern is that they are pushing Sanskrit as the source / base for these words and this may damage punjabi by Hindizing it. Punjabi should be understood on both sides of the border. Maybe the answer is just to write the English words in Gurmurkhi? They may develop into Punjabi like Bicycle did to Saikal

no. Its a long story, Quickest answer is go on google or youtube and look up the videos and tv interviews Short answer, I always read English novels and did Eng Lit at A level. I wanted to write a novel in English about Sikh characters but the path to that lead to learning Gurmukhi and next thing I know I am writing Punjabi stories for the British Sikh kids who don't want to read about the pind..it began from there

I'm only reading punjabi books at the moment