SUKHBIR
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sikhs have no unity meaning there will never be khalistan.
sad to see all those sacrifices made in 1984 for nothing.
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
I have been away from this or any forum for quite some time, owing to other commitments.
Primary to anything else what is needed is an apology, how dare you write that sacrifices were made for 'nothing'?
Did you lose anyone close to you?
Friend, relative, brother,father,sister,mother?? To qualify you to make such a comment?
You style your 'web-handle' upon the name of a weapon yet you lack any understanding of its responsibility....'all for nothing?'
Sewa is its own reward, take back your comments now, lest you continue to add insult to injury.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
So that is agreed, if Santa Singh wishes to present his version of events then surely it is his responsibility to do so, if he does not choose to present a view of events contrary to that which is generally accepted, then it must be assumed he has no clarification to make.i disagree. why should santa singh have to clarify his position? if someone wishes to know what he did & why, it is their responsibility to ask him.Since you have quoted me please read the quote properly, it reads 'IF Santa Singh wishes....' the operative word being 'IF' I do do not say there is any compulsion for him to do so. Also the quote you use is a response to beast, who ask's
.Why is it that noone has attempted to ask and record Baba Santa Singh's views?:......My view is 'IF' he wishes to counter his critics it is his perogative to do so, not the responsibility of others to question him.
.Sukhbir, it appears that you have a huge number of monthly car club meetings taking place. Hopefully all this effort you put into this 'Panthic' cause should yield a Siropa... ............In the interests of saving you embarrassment in the future, monthly meetings, car or otherwise take place once a month, hence the title.
.I suppose its only best to wait for the article to appear now and let you continue on your soapbox. Enjoy the lovely weather...............From previous encounters I know your inclined to a display of 'sour grapes', at about this point in the discussion, as ever you don't fail to disappoint.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
.On a slightly different note, while everyone awaits Narsingha's reply, I have a query to ask of everyone involved in this debate:......I don't know whether anyone is waiting with bated breath, the reply is hardly likely to be a revelation to anyone.
.We are not talking here about a historical incident on which primary sources are questioned. We are talking about a relatively recent event (only 20 years) where many of the 'main players' are still alive. Why is it that noone has attempted to ask and record Baba Santa Singh's views? :......
...the Sikh history referred to within this thread is of a recent period and therefore wholly empirical. The fact that it is consistent from multiple sources only reinforces this fact. :......So that is agreed, if Santa Singh wishes to present his version of events then surely it is his responsibility to do so, if he does not choose to present a view of events contrary to that which is generally accepted, then it must be assumed he has no clarification to make. Ultimately he could not hope to deny that the 'kar seva' was carried out under his auspices at the behest of the GOI, the record is unequivocal. Although futile, the best he could hope for in this regard is to attempt to rationalise his action's.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
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Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
.This thread was created by you about Baba Santa Singh in 1984. What you on? .Yes, beast the thread title related to Santa Singh and his actions following 'bluestar', but it did so quite specifically, his acceptance of the 'Tankhaah' and his official return to the fold, based upon his acceptance of wrong doing after a number of years.
Narsingha did not accept the events as described above, initially his posting did relate to this specifically,as was the purpose of the thread, but if you take a look back through the thread it was in answer to this post,
-- --------------------------------
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
.It has become a sterotype in that any time Nihang Singhs are mentioned,individuals such as yourself end up dragging Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh's
name and reputation through the dirt and claim it is your 'Panthic' duty to
do so.
It may be inconvenient for you, undoubtedly you wish that the actions of
Santa Singh were not common knowledge, but as no study of Santa Singh would
be complete without discussing his collaboration with the GOI conspired 'kar
seva', no discussion of the neo-nihangs would be complete without referring
to Santa Singh.
Bear in mind also that his name appears in the title of this very thread.
Rather than expressing your sorrow that people have a irritating habit of
scrutinising the behaviour of individuals, here is a novel approach for you,
try defending Santa Singh's actions.
This may be akin to flogging the proverbial horse, but your no stranger to
that pursuit.
He and consequently 'neo-nihangs' will never be able to escape historical
record and try as you may you cannot wish it away.
Of course I can take it as given that the answer to this question as any
other is soon to appear along with 'evidence' on one site or another.
.The fact that Sukhbir quotes Prof Sangat Singh speaks foritself.....
Speaks of what exactly?
You may think that such a comment is in itself enough to cast an aspersion
but you are, not for the first time I hasten to add, mistaken. If you have
any reason to cast doubt upon Prof. Sangat Singh's reputation than I suggest
you post it here.
Further despite your apparent unsubstantiated questioning of Prof. Sangat
Singh as a source, the quote which I posted is neither a commentary or
assessment of Santa Singh, it is merely a historic record of events running
up to Santa Singh carrying out the 'kar seva' at the request of the GOI.
Is their any part of the historical record, as recounted through the quote
that you can dispute?
Since the sequence of events itself as contained within the quote is
available from multiple sources, I look forward to your answer.
The questions are very clear indeed, did Santa Singh carry out the 'kar
seva' at the behest of the GOI?
I assume you admit this?
In that case perhaps you would be kind enough to answer a further question*.
Looked at in a historical comparative his (Santa Singhs) actions would have
been equal to a
Sikh, regardless of grandeur of title and position(if anything all the
worse for it) accepting money and assistance from Ahmed Shah Abdali for
reconstruction after his destruction of Harmandir Sahib whilst allowing his
tobacco smoking, shoe wearing and in the case of the Indian army alcohol
drinking soldiers to mill around the complex whilst enforcing a curfew with
orders to shoot on sight, in the surrounding city.
**Hypothetically speaking, if there had been an individual who had carried
out such actions from that period, how do you think he would be remembered
by the Sikh community? What words do you think may be used to describe him
or his action's?**
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
---------------------------------------------------
that he felt compelled to write what you see below, why he wrote this rather than respond to the post....I will leave it to you to draw your own conclusions.
.Sukhbir, from your exploits on this website it is clear that your approach to Sikh history is based on the asumption that whatever you perceive as the "truth" must therefore be the ONLY truth.Your purpose is to defame, slander and create hatred towards Nihangs (that much is pretty evident). I hope you are successful in your venture because you certainly put a lot of effort into it.
The extent of your intellect can be summed very easily...In such an age, where Sikhs are struggling to ensure they are not tainted as terrorists to avoid being persecuted, you and others of your camp, end up promoting racial intolerance, assasinations, truancy, and physical violence towards others by promoting products such as the CD advertised on www.shaheedi.com.
I will let the upcoming article on my website speak for itself - that is unless you wish to give me money to publish my work in a text, then i am afraid you will have to refer to a website. It will answer the questions posed on this thread, with lots of evidence too. You may not agree with a lot of the evidence, for it may mean that you have to reassess your views with regards to Nihangs. No doubt it will mean a few more death threats, slander, insults, etc., from those who perceive Nihangs as "anti panthic" elements. Some of these 'Gursikhs' even choose to pick on women associated with the Akharas in the UK.
Sukhbir, should you know the individuals responsible for the threats, please ask them to send me a box of Ferrero Rocher in their next parcel (preferbly with a lovely dark blue ribbon)............
-------------------------------------------------------
this is clearly not a response to the previous post and entirely irrelevant to the thread, his post deviates off topic, his is not the first in this thread but he does 'bring in to play' the events of 84 in their broadest terms by referring to an album that was created as a reminder and tribute of that entire period.
So it is indeed Narsingha that brought the issues of 84 in their entirety into this thread so by his own criteria he is therefore the 'lunatic fringe', it is this that I believe is the point being made by 'Sikh princess'.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
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Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
That was a huge reply, obviously a lot of time andeffort has been put into..
You really should stop judging other's by your own shortcomings, (FYI) I
wrote most of the post at my monthly car club meeting,
outside in the glorious sunshine. I assure you it was neither time consuming
nor an effort, you may find responding to a question is far less fatiguing
than avoiding one.
I responded to every point you raised even though you refuse to answer a
single question that I put to you. As for it being a 'huge' reply, the word
your groping for is comprehensive, but there again why should I except you
to recognise such a thing.
...ensuring that this "minor" threat to the Sikhs iscontrolled.........
Am I controlling you? I think not, I am afraid you will have to look
elsewhere for the 'master' that pulls your strings.
.Not much point in carrying on this debate, the upcoming articles will speakfor themselves.......
Ah, a refreshing change of tact then?
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
.Sukhbir, from your exploits on this website it is clear that your approachto Sikh history is based on the asumption that whatever you perceive as the
"truth" must therefore be the ONLY truth......
There is truth and there is that which is untrue, the Sikh history referred
to within this thread
is of a recent period and therefore wholly empirical. The fact that it is
consistent from multiple
sources only reinforces this fact. It is not my truth but instead a matter of
record and no amount of subjective
opinion can change that, which is why you avoid answering any questions on
the subject.
My 'exploits' on this site have not drawn criticism from anyone other than
yourself or your ilk,
which is to be excepted, uncomfortable truth's are usually met with a
degree of protest.
If my posting on this site has been contradictory to the purpose of the site
I am yet to hear of yet.
Perhaps you should be looking closer to home, I have not to date received
any warning or direction
from the administrators, you cannot claim the same.
.Your purpose is to defame, slander and create hatred towards Nihangs (thatmuch is pretty evident). I hope you are successful in your venture because
you certainly put a lot of effort into it......
My purpose is neither to defame nor slander, rather than continuously
applying these words as a response to any and all questioning perhaps you can
present examples from my post that are either
slanderous or defamatory.
Hatred is a strong word and I think it would be
more accurate to say that it is your integrity
that is being questioned, it is not hateful to be sceptical. In this
'venture' (creating scepticism) you have been entirely successful
without help from any third party, sincerely
are you really the best 'spokesperson' that your 'group' is able to muster, or are
your frequent 'faux pas' intentional?
As to your final point, sorry to
disappoint you but I believe you overestimate your ability by quite some
margin, it is really rather effortless countering someone in a position as
untenable as yours.
.
.The extent of your intellect can be summed very easily...In such an age,where Sikhs are struggling to ensure they are not tainted as terrorists to
avoid being persecuted, you and others of your camp, end up promoting racial
intolerance, assassinations, truancy, and physical violence towards others by
promoting products such as the CD advertised on www.shaheedi.com
......
I was hopeful that following our previous parley resulting in you
threatening to leave this site, you would make good use of your time away
and either find the answers to the innumerable questions left unanswered by
yourself or at least hone your debating skill's by some degree.
It would seem that I was over optimistic on both counts.
You have deflected all relevant questions, instead you
attempt to avoid the issue by raising previous thread's.
Since you are unable to respond to the questions of others
as means of demonstration I will respond to yours.
The only way that the Sikhs will be able to undo the years of GOI propaganda
that portrayed the Sikhs as terrorist's both domestically and
internationally is by raising awareness of the truth. The portrayal of Sikhs
as terrorists by india, is not a unique phenomenon.
Repressive state's that
have sought to subjugate people(s) demands have traditionally employed
tactics to malign them or their cause, whatever happens to be considered
the most heinous label of the time is employed, once the term communist
would suffice to create fear and loathing and in recent time's the word
'terrorist' is in vogue.
Indeed Nelson Mandela and his ANC party were both
cited terrorist and terrorist organisation respectively. The world only
started to question the labels imposed by the South African state when they
became increasingly aware of the behaviour of the state and its role in the creation of these
'terrorists'.
It is not, as you suggest for Sikhs to deny the armed
struggle and their great martyrs who gave their all for a just cause, for
fear of being branded a terrorist, on the contrary we must raise the worlds
awareness as to indian state terrorism that was responsible for the Sikhs taking up
a armed resistance in the first place.
We may recall that violent and
murderous states quite commonly justify their actions as
'counter-terrorism': for example, the Nazis fighting partisan resistance.
Remember also that the right to self determination is enshrined in
international law
'....that nothing could prejudice the right to self determination, freedom
and independence, as derived from the charter of the United Nations, of
people forcibly deprived of the right...particularly peoples under colonial
and racist regimes and foreign occupation or other forms of colonial
domination,to support the right of these peoples to struggle to this end and
to seek and receive support...'
After your suggestion that Sikhs should, through fear of being branded terrorists, deny the armed struggle and its martyrs you move onto the subject of assassinations.
Simply, if you condemn the action's of Bhai Satwant Singh and Bhai Beant Singh then you also condemn the actions of Bhai Udham Singh.
Should you condemn those that sought justice from the likes of gobind ram a police 'officer' who as well as being a prolific torturer and murderer was fond of forcing his prisoners to drink his urine, commenting that you have drank the amrit of Gobind Singh now drink the 'amrit' of Gobind Ram, then you are also condeming Bhai Sukha Singh and Bhai Methab Singh for punishing massa rangar.
Now you may be willing to deny these 'mahaan jodhi' but I as well as the vast majority of Sikhs are not.
In reference to your further accusation, racial intolerance is not promoted by raising awareness of the events of the past twenty years nor is it racially intolerant to commemorate the martyrs of the Sikh nation.
Is the observance of the martyrdom of Guru Arjan Dev Ji or Guru Teg Bahadur ji fostering racial intolerance between Sikhs and muslims?
Incidentally this argument was the very one used by the GOI to present the issue of Panjab as one of communal strife between hindus and Sikhs when in reality it was an entirely political creation.
To read that armed struggle is simply a case of promoting physical violence towards others is not a comment that I would except to encounter on a 'Sikh website', do I really have to relay how the use of physical force in the face of tyranny is justified?
It seems you neo-nihangs are more radical than I thought, firstly you condemn the actions of men who are held in the highest esteem within Sikh history and then question the right to resort to force, I am truly astonished. All I can suggest here is please look at the precedents, even the most basic perusal of Sikh history will clarify this point.
.
.I will let the upcoming article on my website speak for itself - that isunless you wish to give me money to publish my work in a text, then i am
afraid you will have to refer to a website. It will answer the questions
posed on this thread, with lots of evidence too. You may not agree with a
lot of the evidence, for it may mean that you have to reassess your views
with regards to Nihangs. No doubt it will mean a few more death threats,
slander, insults, etc., from those who perceive Nihangs as "anti panthic"
elements. Some of these 'Gursikhs' even choose to pick on women associated
with the Akharas in the UK.......
Any organisation or individual for that matter, that requires a number of years to formulate their opinion on events that took place twenty years ago must be viewed with suspicion. Your comments above relating to how Sikhs should present themselves in order to avoid being labelled as terrorist's is very telling.
If escaping persecution is your first priority then consider this, Balbir Singh Sodhi killed in the aftermath of 09/11 was killed by his assailant not because he perceived him to be a Sikh terrorist but because the ignoramus thought he looked like a 'rag head'(americanism relates to arabs islamist terror etc.), by your reasoning then our only sanctuary is to change our appearance, for if we can turn our back and deny our history and principles to save ourselves then why not our appearance?
Your reasoning is that Sikhs should present themselves in a manner that is palatable for any given audience, regard for the truth is by this method at best secondary at worst scant.
This is, no doubt the same methodology you resort to when presenting opinion and 'evidence' on your site. The creation of
your opinion is not based on fact or even on principled reasoning but instead on what you consider to be most attractive to the reader, I contend this is the very reason that we have been waiting so long for you to manufacture a response to the many questions put to you regarding 84.
By your reasoning Sikhs could escape persecution as terrorists by denying fundamental principles like upholding the truth and standing defiant in the face of tyranny, if you advocate such thinking should we really hold out much hope for your version of the events of 1984?
.
.Sukhbir, should you know the individuals responsible for the threats, pleaseask them to send me a box of Ferrero Rocher in their next parcel (preferbly
with a lovely dark blue ribbon)..........
In the same way that I was critical of the veiled threats you made against some posters on this site I am equally critical of those who may be threatening you, if indeed this is actually taking place. Personally I think you present a minor threat to the young, impressionable and uninformed but your certainly far from being a major threat, assuming of course these death threats are not just a product of a paranoid and overactive imagination.
One further word of advice I would offer is rather than requesting ferrero rocher you should instead be asking for a very large container of salt, so that 'you' can add a generous pinch to everything 'you' write.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
-
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
.It has become a sterotype in that any time Nihang Singhs are mentioned, individuals such as yourself end up dragging Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh's name and reputation through the dirt and claim it is your 'Panthic' duty to do so.It may be inconvenient for you, undoubtedly you wish that the actions of Santa Singh were not common knowledge, but as no study of Santa Singh would be complete without discussing his collaboration with the GOI conspired 'kar seva', no discussion of the neo-nihangs would be complete without referring to Santa Singh.
Bear in mind also that his name appears in the title of this thread and so is entirely relevant, not 'dragged up' as you contend.
Rather than perversely expressing sorrow that people have a habit of scrutinising the behaviour of prominent figures, here is a novel approach for you, try defending Santa Singh's actions.
This may be akin to flogging the proverbial horse, but your no stranger to that pursuit.
He and consequently 'neo-nihangs' will never be able to escape historical record and try as you may you cannot wish it away.
.The fact that Sukhbir quotes Prof Sangat Singh speaks for itself.....Speaks of what exactly?
You may think that such a comment is in itself enough to cast an aspersion but you are, not for the first time I hasten to add, mistaken. If you have any reason to cast doubt upon Prof. Sangat Singh's reputation than I suggest you post it here.
Further despite your apparent unsubstantiated questioning of Prof. Sangat Singh as a source, the quote which I posted is neither a commentary or assessment of Santa Singh, it is merely a historic record of events running up to Santa Singh carrying out the 'kar seva' at the request of the GOI.
Is their any part of the historical record, as recounted through the quote that you can dispute?
Since the sequence of events itself as contained within the quote is available from multiple sources, I look forward to your answer.
The questions are very clear indeed, did Santa Singh carry out the 'kar seva' at the behest of the GOI?
I assume you admit this?
In that case perhaps you would be kind enough to answer a further question*.
Looked at in a historical comparative his (Santa Singhs) actions would have been equal to a
Sikh, regardless of grandeur of title and position(if anything all the
worse for it) accepting money and assistance from Ahmed Shah Abdali for
reconstruction after his destruction of Harmandir Sahib whilst allowing his
tobacco smoking, shoe wearing and in the case of the Indian army alcohol
drinking soldiers to mill around the complex whilst enforcing a curfew with
orders to shoot on sight, in the surrounding city.
**Hypothetically speaking, if there had been an individual who had carried
out such actions from that period, how do you think he would be remembered
by the Sikh community? What words do you think may be used to describe him
or his action's?**
Of course I can take it as given that the answer to these question's as any other put to you is soon to appear along with 'evidence' on one site or another.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
-
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
I never did receive any answer's to the question posed (see asterix below), any suggestions gratefully received, anyway I thought this may be of help to the discussion, full mail can be found at http://sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness/vie...70&start=30
....The 'nindia' of Santa Singh is a bit more complicated, there is no direct
accusation save for the writer's opinion that the people that are represented
by Santa Singh are to his mind not Nihangs, by his definition, as to what his
definition may be is again a matter for the writer.
I will say this much in regard to Santa Singh, his collaboration with the
Indian Government following bluestar in direct contravention of Sikh interests
is no secret and led to his excommunication from the panth, a punishment
which he accepted after some seventeen years in 'exile'.
Looked at in a historical comparative his actions would have been equal to a
Sikh, regardless of grandeur of title and position(if anything all the
worse for it) accepting money and assistance from Ahmed Shah Abdali for
reconstruction after his destruction of Harminder Sahib whilst allowing his
tobacco smoking, shoe wearing and in the case of the Indian army alcohol
drinking soldiers to mill around the complex whilst enforcing a curfew with
orders to shoot on sight, in the surrounding city.
**Hypothetically speaking, if there had been an individual who had carried out such actions from that period, how do you think he would be remembered by the Sikh community? What words do you think may be used to describe him or his action's?**
Excerpt taken from Prof.Sangat Singh's 'The Sikhs In History, a millennium
study'
Prof.Sangat Singh wrote:
"...Buta Singh's inability to meet the conditions of withdrawal of troops from the Golden Temple complex laid down by Baba Kharak Singh, to undertake the 'kar seva', reconstruction of damaged shrine by the voluntary service of the community, which was in the best traditions of Sikhism, was glaring......Lt.Gen.Tirath Singh Oberoi landed in amritsar on July 13, to negotiate the
kar seva..while the army insisted on keeping a picket at darshani
deori,...New Delhi's duplicity was obvious from the fact that this period of
negotiations was utilised to transport a fleet of buses of Santa Singh's
Nihangs from Bhatinda, 300kms away, guarded by Punjab Police commandos,
Indira's special confidant and K.C.Pant flew from Delhi on the evening of
July 16th, and conveyed the move to the army brass. The Generals now
unabashedly told Akalis that Indira had decided that they were still
untrustworthy and the man dubbed Indira's 'favourite nihang', Baba Santa
Singh had been brought in for the kar seva.....The five high preists struck
immediately and issued a hukamnamah barring the Sikhs from participation in
the kar seva without their sanction. Santa Singh refused summons and was
immediately excommunicated....":
Following the demolition of the Indira sponsored re-construction of the Akal Takht it was pulled down to allow it to be re-built by the Sikhs, this time with legitimacy...
Prof.Sangat Singh wrote:
"The rubble of the demolished Akal Takht yeilded a rich crop of meat bones, earthen peices of 'chillums', razor blades etc- all thrown by troops sacrilegiously into the building material at the time of construction under auspices of Baba Santa Singh.":
I will refrain from personal comment on the actions of this man and leave it to the reader to draw his/her own conclusions. I will say that your perceived 'nindia' of him, by the album producers, if there has been any, is probably related to the episode above.
lalleshvari wrote:
"Baba Santa Singh is surely to be considered the
jathedar of the SIkh qaum"
Baba Nihal Singh
A.S.KANG wrote:
ps: i love that quote baba nihal singh. and fauge u da man
too!!!
Is this the same Baba Nihal Singh, whom along with late Baba Mangal Singh
Satlani and Baba Bikramjit Singh were also excommunicated for taking part in
Indira's Kar seva?....
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
-
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
N30 as requested,
You can send your donations now and there are some stories of the brothers and sister's these good people help.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
Gur-Aasra Trust,
#3133,
Phase-7,
Mohali,
Punjab
The Trust has got its own website www.guraasra.com. You can get more
information about the trust from the website.
106)-
Amanjot Kaur
D/o Shaheed Dr. Sukhchain Singh
Age - 13 years
Class - VIII
Brief History:- Her father, the only son of his parents, was a professional
doctor in his village-Maan Khaire, Distt. Gurdaspur. He was blamed that he
used to treat the militants. Due to this reason, he was third degree
tortured by Punjab Police infront of his whole family including Amanjot at
his residence itself. When he was badly injured and was near to death, he
was shooted somewhere outside. His dead body was also not given to his
family members. Not only this, one of her cousin brothers and two uncles
were also killed likely by Punjab Police in different incidents. It was a
sign of hatred towards Sikh Community that these incidents took place. There
was no earning member left in her family. Amanjot, with her sister, brothers
and mother is living in Gur Aasra Trust for the last three years. She is
very good in her studies and recites Gurbani Kirtan and Dhadhi Varan. At
present, she is studying in Sant Isher Singh Public School under the
guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.)
107)-
Rajmeet Kaur
D/o Shaheed S. Sarabjeet Singh
Age - 14 years
Class - X
Brief History:- Being strongly affected by the Operation Bluestar (attack on
Darbar Sahib), her father became a militant. After sometime, he became a
great Lt.General of Khalistan Liberation Army. He was martyred in a Police
encounter on February 26, 1992 near Dhaliwal, Gurdaspur . Her family faced a
lot of problems after his death. Related to Ramgarhia Community, they have
not got any land or any other source of income. Rajmeet is living in Gur
Aasra Trust with her mother for the last three years. She is good in her
studies. She also recites Gurbani Kirtan (especially Dhadhi Varan) and plays
Gatka well. At present, she is studying in Sant Isher Singh Public School
under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.).
Preet Kaur
D/o Late S. Mahander Singh
Age - 19 years Class - B.A. Ist year,
Diploma in Computers
Brief History:- She belongs to a nice reputed and a prosperous family. But
their whole business and property were ruined during the Anti-Sikh Riots of
1984. Her parents also became the victims of the riots. These were not
actually riots but was pre-planned conspiracy to finish the Sikh Community.
For sometime, she stayed with her relatives in Delhi. But because of their
denial and negligence, she is now staying in Gur Aasra Trust. Her brother is
also living with her in the Trust. She is studying in B.A. Ist year as well
as doing Diploma in Computers. She is good in reciting Gurbani Kirtan and
Dhadhi Varan. At present, she is studying in Panjab University, Chandigarh
under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.).
102)-
Randeep Kaur
D/o Shaheed S. Sarabjeet Singh
Age - 19 years
Class - B.A. Ist year
Brief History:- Her father was a reputed employee of Railway Police. Punjab
Police got him involved in false cases. So, he ran away from his house and
became a militant. He was martyred in a Police encounter February 26,1992 .
Her family suffered a lot after his death. They have not got any land or any
other source of income. She is living in Gur Aasra Trust for the last three
years. She is good in her studies especially in Fine Arts. She also recites
Gurbani Kirtan and Dhadhi Varan. She is suffering from some brain problems
and her treatment is going in PGI through the Trust. At present, she is
studying in Govt. College, Mohali under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust
(Regd.).
Gurbaksh Singh
S/o Shaheed Dr. Swaran Singh
Age - 17 years
Class - X
Brief History:- His father was a doctor in Indian Army. He practiced
privately after his retirement in his village itself. He was badly beaten
and brutally killed by some Hindu militants by attacking him in his house
itself on Dec.25, 1994 in Haryana State. Gurbaksh is the eye witness of the
whole case. He was at home when his father was attacked and killed. A
patient who was completly blind, and had come to his father for treatment,
was also killed. Gurbaksh was also beaten but he somehow managed to flee
away from there. Till today the signs of wounds are there on his body. He is
living in Gur Aasra Trust for the last three years. The trust is itself
facing some problems regarding him since he is the eye witness of the whole
case. This case is still under trial in the Punjab and Haryana High Court in
Chandigarh. He is staying in the residential branch of Amritsar and studying
in class X. He is also taking the training of Taekwondo And Karate.
152)-
Gurmeet Singh
S/o Shaheed S. Paramjeet Singh
Age - 17 years
Class - X
Brief History:- His father was the only son of his parents. Their whole
property and assets were ruined and looted in the Anti-Sikh riots of 1984 in
U.P. His father then came to Punjab and became a militant in order to take
his revenge. He was martyred in a Police encounter with five other young
militants on May 21, 1992 near Anandpur Sahib. His grandparents (mother and
father of his father) could not tolerate this and died soon after his
father's death. They did not have any other source so he is living with his
sisters, brother and mother in Gur Aasra Trust for the last three years. He
is good in karate and is studying in residential branch in Amritsar under
the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.).
Amritpal Singh
S/o Shaheed S. Rashpal Singh Shandra
Age - 8 years
Class - II
Brief History: He is the younger one of a very famous militant Rashpal Singh
Shandra, who was the chief of Bhindranwala Tiger Force. He was martyred in a
Police encounter near Ludhiana
on June 11, 1992. Amritpal's grandfather Shaheed S. Ranjit Singh was also
martyred in a false Police encounter. On the next day after the death of his
father Rashpal Singh Shandra, his mother Mrs. Amarjit Kaur and grandmother
(Nani) were picked up by Police. Till today, it is not known that how did
the police actually killed them. After the martyrdom of his father, mother,
grandfather and grandmother (Nani) he is living in Gur Aasra Trust for the
last three years and studying in residential branch in Amritsar under the
guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.).
Simranjeet Singh
S/o Shaheed S. Avtar Singh Padhri
Age - 6 years
Class - I
Brief History:- His father was a very famous leader of the militant
organisation Babbar Khalsa. He was martyred in a Police encounter on April
14, 1994. His mother, Rajwinder Kaur, was of 15 years when she was married
to this militant and was of 16 years when she became a widow. Simranjeet
took birth after the death of his father. Simranjeet's Uncle S. Dhian Singh,
aged 14 years, a student of Matric, was killed by Black Cats by torturing
him in third degree. Gur Aasra Trust is facing a lot of problems to keep
Simranjeet and his mother safe. Simranjeet is quite sharp and plays Gatka
very well in such a small age. At present, he is studying in Class I in
Hemkunt Public School under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.).
155)-
Fateh Singh
S/o Shaheed Dr. Swaran Singh
Age - 16 years
Class - 10 + 1
Brief History:- His father was a doctor in Indian Army. He practiced
privately after his retirement in his village itself. He was badly beaten
and brutally killed by some Hindu militants by attacking him in his house
itself on Dec.25, 1994 in his village Jamalpur Sheikhan in Haryana State. A
patient who was completly blind, and had come to his father for treatment,
was also killed. This case was taken up on the international level and was
criticised by all Human Rights Organisations. The case is still under trial
in the Punjab and Haryana High Court in Chandigarh and the seven accused
persons are still under Judicial custody in jail. He and his brother have
been tried to be killed by the Hindu militants on several ocassions. The
trust is itself facing some problems to keep them safe. He is living in Gur
Aasra Trust for the last three years with his mother. At present, he is
studying in XIth class in Govt. College, Mohali under the guardianship of
Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.).
156)-
Sarabjeet Singh
S/o Late S. Mahander Singh
Age - 15 years
Class - VIII
Brief History:- He belongs to a nice reputed and a prosperous family. But
their whole business and property were ruined during the Anti-Sikh Riots of
1984. His parents also became the victims of the riots. These were not
actually riots but was pre-planned conspiracy to finish the Sikh Community.
For sometime, he stayed with his relatives in Delhi. But because of their
denial and neglifence, he is now staying in Gur Aasra Trust. His sister is
also living with him in the Trust. He is studying in class VIII in the
residential branch of Amritsar under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust
(Regd.).
103)-
Bhupinderjeet Kaur
D/o Shaheed Jathedar Ranjit Singh Ballagan
Age - 18 years
Class - B.A. Ist year
Brief History:- Her father was a Head Granthi in the famous and old
Organisation of Sikh Panth called Budha Dal. When the head of this
Organisation Santa Singh became a spy of the Delhi Government, the entire
Sikh community made Ranjit Singh as the Head of the Organisation. Sant
Jarnail Singh Khalsa Bhindranwale and Sri Akal Takht Sahib also recognised
him as the Jathedar of the Budha Dal. On the ocassion of Shahidi Jor Mela in
Fatehgarh Sahib in December-1985, he with his three followers were brutally
murdered by the followers of Santa Singh. Her nanaji, Jathedar Mohan Singh
was also killed by the followers of Santa Singh in 1989. Her mother
Simranjeet Kaur was re-married to her uncle Sukhdev Singh (brother of
Shaheed Ranjit Singh) with the advice of their relatives and friends.
Sukhdev Singh became the Lt.General of Khalistan Liberation Army and became
quite famous in a very short time-period with his work. He was martyred in a
Police encounter on Feb-3, 1992. Her mother still remained widow.
Bhupinderjeet's father, step-father and nanaji became the victims of this
Genocide. But facing a lot of difficulties, she is quite intelligent in her
studies.
104)-
Sandeep Kaur
D/o Shaheed S. Sarabjeet Singh
Age - 18 years
Class - B.A. Ist year
Brief History:- Her father was a Lt. General of Khalistan Liberation Army.
He became quite famous with his actions in a very short time. He was
martyred in a Police encounter on February 26,1992. This family had to face
a lot of difficulties during his lifetime and after his martyrdom. Punjab
Police ruined their assets and property. She is staying in Gur Aasra Trust
for last three years. She is good in sports, plays hockey well. She is also
good in Gurbani Kirtan and Dhadi varan. She plays Gatka also well. At
present, she is studying in Govt. College, Mohali under the guardianship of
Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.).
109)-
Lovpreet Kaur
D/o Shaheed S. Avtar Singh Kahthunangal
Age - 8 years
Class - II
Brief History:- Her mother, Mrs. Sukhwinder Kaur was married to S. Avtar
Singh Kathunangal at a small age of 16 years. S. Avtar Singh was a very
famous militant and was the Lt.General of Khalistan Liberation Army. About
four months after their marriage, S. Avtar Singh was martyred in a police
encounter on April 21, 1991. Lovpreet took birth seven months after the
martyrdom of his father. Her mother is living in her parental village. Her
grandmother (Naniji) is already a widow. This family has faced such a
torture by Punjab Police that it cannot be explained. Moreover, there is no
male member left in this family. Lovpreet is studying under the guardianship
of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.), but the Trust is worried about her mother who
became a widow in such a small age.
110)-
Sukhraj Kaur
D/o Shaheed S. Satnam Singh Changiara
Age - 8.1/2 years
Class - I
Brief History:- Her mother, Mrs. Sawinder Kaur was also married to Shaheed
S. Satnam Singh Changiara in a very small age. S. Satnam Singh was the
Lt.General of the very famous militant organisation called Bhindranwala
Tiger Force. He was martyred in a police encounter with his friends in
January 1991. Sukhraj Kaur took birth on July 11, 1991, about seven months
after the matyrdom of her father. Her uncle, S. Mohan Singh (Brother of
Shaheed S. Satnam Singh) is missing till date and his dead body was also not
found. Her grandfather S. Dara Singh (Dadaji) was killed by Black Cats. Her
grandfather (Nanaji) also became the victim of Genocide. At present, Sukhraj
is studying in Class I in Hemkunt Public School under the guardianship of
Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.).
153)-
Rana Gurwinder Singh
S/o Shaheed S. Sarabjeet Singh Uppal
Age - 16 years
Class - X
Brief History:- His father was an active leader in the famous organisation
Akal Federation since 1982. He was sent to jail by Punjab Police by
involving him in false cases. Being irritated by all this, he joined the
militant organisation Khalistan Commando Force and became its Lt.General.
His actions became so famous that his head was rewarded for Rs.25 lakhs by
Punjab Govenment. He was marytred in a police encounter on November 16,
1990. Rana Gurwinder Singh is studying in Class X under the guardianship of
Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.).
154)-
Palwinder Singh
S/o Shaheed S. Surjan Singh
Age - 15 years
Class - VIII
Brief History:- His father became a militant after the attack on Darbar
Sahib in 1984. He worked for various militant organisations. After sometime,
he became the famous leader of the organisation named Babbar Khalsa. He was
martyred very bravely in an encounter with Punjab Police and Indian Army. He
was saluted for his bravery by the Commander of the Army after his
martyrdom. On the other side, Punjab Police kept an eye of hatred towards
his family. Two uncles of Palwinder (brothers of Shaheed S. Surjan Singh)
were martyred by Punjab Police in different false encounters. At present,
there are four widow ladies in his family including his mother, Mrs. Kuldip
Kaur. He is studying in Class VIII in the residential branch of Amritsar
under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.).
Name: Jasdeep Singh
Father: shaheed Lakhwinder Singh
Age : 8 years
Class :
Brief History:- Jasdeep Singh was not even born when the black cats of
punjab police martyred his father Shaheed Lakhwinder Singh of village Kotla
Shahia Distt Gurdaspur December 1991 in front of his mother. He was born
about three month after the death of his father His grand father and mother
also died due to the shock of the untimely death of their son. He is
survived only by his mother who is making both the end meet with great
dificulty by doing embroidery and tailoring job Jasdeep singh is staying in
Gur Aasra Trust and studtying in good school .Gur Aasra Trust is also
sendingh his mother finacial help in the form of monthly pension.
Name Paramjit singh
Father shaheed balbir singh
Age 10 years
Class iv
Brief History:- his father was s balbir singh went to village to bring the
diesel on tractar .on the way he was martyred by crpf personnel not only
this about five personnel (innocent )were killed along with him.His son
parmjit singh was about two months old.After his death his mother
went to her maternal village kairon and his sister sukhwinderkaur went to
her in law's
Name livtar singh
Father's name shaheed Ram singh
age 12 years
class 6th
Brief history a renowned press reporter of aaj di awaaj and ajeet newspaper
and distt Secertery of punjab human rights orgnisation shaheed ram singh
bling was abducted while going to jullundher by punjab police and
subsequently martyred under a planned conspiracy in such a way that his
whereabouts were not known till today.son of a poor farmer was after doing
his M.A in E nglish and diploma in a renowned writer known for his struggle
for fundamental rights and truth was silenced for ever.complete writer
community could not do much even after the great struggle.gur aasra trust
has taken the responssibility of education and complete lookafter of livtar
singh and sending finacial help to the widow mother in the form of monthly
pension.
Name prabhjot singh
Father subhwinder singh bhatti
age 12
class vii
brief history 12 ,May 1994 would be known as black day in the punjab history
when shaheed subhwinder singh advocate who used to fight the cases for the
millitants was abducted from the bus by black cats of punjab police.despite
the strikes and interference of indian and
foreign advocates his where abouts, regarding when and where this great
personality was martyred, are not known till today.the able son of a great
father is studying in good school in mohali.gur aasra trust has taken the
complete responssibilty for his studies.
Name Sikander singh
father shaheed jaimal singh
age 8 years
class III
brief history: his father shaheed jaimal singh was martyred near village
talwandi tehsir patti distt amritsar in a fake police encounter her mother
baljeet kaur remarried with the concent of gur aassra trust obviously the
sikander singh has become an orphan.he studying under the guardianship of
gur aasra trust since last few years in good school in s a s nagar.
Name : Talwinder singh
Father Makhan singh alias maha singh
Age 12 years
class iv
Brief History:-his father was renowned activist of B.T.F .he was arrested
and torchered by the punjab police in front of his family members at village
kotli bawa ram distt hosiarpur.afterwards he was dragged by tying with the
vehical and martyred.widow of shaheed makhan singh remarried herself and his
son talwinder singh is studying under the guardianship of gur aasra trust.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
During the geonocide of Sikh Qaum so many sikh youths were slaughted by the
government Mother Lakhmir kaur family is one of those rare family who bore
the burnt of police atrocities.Beside her husband S Harjit singh she was
having a son Balwinder singh and daughter.S Harjit singh decided to marry
his daughter and subsequently fixed her marriage.Mata lakhmit kaur along
with her son was going to her relatives in village Bhoma on the way near to
village Talwandi-Rama. Police stoped the bus in which they were
travelling.Police was in searchof S.Balwinder Singh allawalpur thana. Shri
Hargobindpur.All sikh youths were searched by the police when Balwinder
singh told his where about without proper inquiry they put the balwinder
singh,after tieing his mouth and handsand feets, in police vehical where two
more youths were already lying .No body was there to help the crying
mother.Police took all of them and all three were gun down near the village
Kathiale.When grieved parents along with other renowned persons asked for
the dead body they were refused .When they asked the reasons.The police told
that they were in search of Balwinder singh Allawalpur thana Hargobindpur
who was a millitant.Point to remember here that Mata Lakhmir kaur's village
was Allawalpur which fall under thana Dera Baba Nanak .Balwinder singh was
the student of 10+2 class who fell the vicitim of police negligence and was
a state level sportsman.S Harjit singh lost his sense after hearing the
shocking news and died after 20-22 days.After this relatives refused to
marry her daughter.After 2 years when mother arranged her marriage.But after
about 8 months her son-in-law also died under mysterous circumstances.Now
mother Lakhmir kaur has filed a petion in court about the murder of his lone
son. This is the reason that today also police does not allow her live
peacefully. Gur Aasra Trust is sending finacial asistance in the form of
monthly pension and giving her a helping hand in sorting out her domestic
problems.
Bibi Dalbir kaur was married to S Kulwant singh of village Dulla Nangal
Distt Gurdas Pur.She had suffered for endless sufferings her only fault was
that she was the sister of Shaheed Satnam singh Chhina who was the activist
of Bhindran wala Tiger Force. Her parents and other brothers remain in
police custody and bore the burnt of police atocities the police not left
even her husband and father-in-law and kept them in illigle police custody
and torchered them till the time Satnam singh remained deserter .The husband
of Bibi Dalbir kaur was torchered so much that he could not bear the police
torchering and died 2-3 months before his brother-in-law Satnam singh
Chhina. After some times of the death of Satnam singh police picked up his
younger brother and his newly married wife and killed even their dead bodies
were not given to the grieved parents. and S kulwant singh father of Satnam
singh could not bear the shock of death of his son in law and son and his
wife and and left this world forever.Bibi's story of sorrows does not end
here after the death of her husband Even she was asked to leave her
father-in-law's house.Due to some other difficulties her other relatives
also could not give her shelter for rest of her life and she along with her
two children Narinder singh and Jaswinder kaur approached Gur Aasra Trust
.Now Bibi Dalbir kaur and her son and daughter are staying in Gur Aasra
Trust. Both the children are studying in good school in Mohali.
Bibi Amarjit kaur was the lone daughter of her parents who became widow in
her young age. Her parents were haveing seven sons, But none of them
survived due to one or another reasons.Bibi Amarjit kaur was married to S.
Narinder singh of village vagewal,Distt Amritsar. She could stay for few
months with her husband because Bhai Narinder singh fell the victim of the
criminal wave. Punjab police picked him from Kathu Nangal. Where he was
torchered for so many days. At last the renowned persons from villages
approached the police officers and got him released after telling them that
Bibi Amarjit kaur health is not good and in advance stage of her perganancy,
but few days police again picked up S Narinder singh again on 09 April 1993
and martyred in police custody and even his dead body was not given .Bibi
Amarjit kaur was made to suffer this unprecedent and unbearable shocks and
gave birth the Amritpal singh before normal time (prematurely ) S Amritpal
singh is now studying in good school in Mohali with help of Gur Aasra Trust
and also sending finacial help in the form of monthly pension but Gur Aasra
Trust is worried about the future of the Bibi Amarjit kaur who is in his
young age.
Bibi Rajwant kaur was married to Shaheed Barjinder singh Lattu of village
Nawan Katra Distt Gurdaspur.Bhai Barjinder singh was man of religious
nature.In 1984 when Indian Government attacked the Shri Harmander Sahib
under planned consipiracy and on the other hand Sikh Youths were booked by
framing false cases,sameway Bhai Barjinder singh was sent to prison.After
staying for long time when he came back and wanted to lead a peaceful life
but Police carried on harassing him.In 1991 he was traped in a false case
again and sent to prison and stayed there for more than a year. Bhai
Baljinder singh was killed in fake police encounter near village Shaahpur
Jajan Chakki (dera baba nanak). Bibi Rajwant kaur is having two sons namely
Ranjodh Singh and Jagtar Singh. Both are studying with the help of Gur Aasra
Trust (regd), Mohali and bibi Rajwant kaur is givin monthly pension as
finacial aid.
Bibi Raj kaur's fathers Tahel singh was a cancer patient died before her
marriage .Mata Avtar kaur decided to releive helself from the family
responssibility and married her with S Kuldip singh of Varrpal village Distt
Amritsar.At the time of marriage the Kuldip singh was student of 10th class
.As Kuldip singh grown up and in the top of his life .Under the planned
genocide of sikh qaum ,sikh youths were the main target of government of the
time.S Kuldip singh fell vicitim of same consipiracy and police started
harassing him . police used to harass the Kuldip singh's parents and Bibi
Raj kaur their only fault was that they used to serve food to police
harassed youths .During this period Bibi Raj kaur gave birth to Kulwinder
kaur.After getting fed up from police humiliation Kuldip singh became
millitant .After about one year, Along with four sikh youths S Kuldip singh
was shot dead in police encounter and dead bodies of these 5 precious sikh
youths were creamated by police .Death of young son in front of old aged
parents is considered to be biggest tragedy in the world S Kuldip singh was
merely 20 years old at the time of his death.Bibi Raj kaur gave birth to S
Lakhwinder singh after her husband's death .It is very dificult for a widow
to take the responssiblity without any source of income.Gur Aasra Trust has
given her shelter and she is staying in Gur Aasra Trust since three
years.Lakhwinder singh is 8 years and Kulwinder kaur 10 years old are
studying in good school in Mohali with the help of Gur Aasra Trust.Gur Aasra
Trust is worried about the future of Bibi Raj kaur.
Bibi Sukhwinder kaur is the eldest among her eight sisters and is not having
any brother .Her father was died when she was in her chilhood.When she grew
up her mother decided to marry her with Avtar singh of village KathuNangal
Distt Amritsar who was very handsom promised his mother-in-law that he will
share all their sorrows and other family responssibilities like thier real
son.After just four months of the marriage, Punjab police arrested S Avtar
singh from village Kala Afganan on 21 april 1991 and under the supervision
of SSP police of Fatehgarh Churian he was torchered and killed him in fake
police encounter. After 7 months of the death of Shaheed Avtar singh Bibi
Sukhwinder kaur gave birth to Lavpreet kaur on 22 nov 1991.After her
husband's death She could not stay at her in law's house and also nobody had
tried and she came back to her parental village Nawan Verronangal .Now
Lavpreet kaur is studying in Mohali in a good school with the help of Gur
Aasra Trust. Gur Aasra Trust is sending finacial help in the form of monthly
pension .But Sukhwinder kaur is in very young age and it is very difficult
for him to pass rest of her life. Gur Aasra Trust is worried about her
future.
Mata Surjit kaur is the mother of three martyres,S Surjan singh,Avtar singh
and Piara singh who were killed during milltancy period .Her husband was
killed in accident long back.She alone brought up her three sons with great
difficulties but in 1984 under the planed consipiracy the government
attacked the Golden Temple Shri Harmandir Sahib the elder son S Surjan singh
was Nihang Singh who along with other people of villaage were going to
Darbar Sahib to show their unhappiness but after brief encounter with army
,They were arrested and torchered after taking to the army camp and when
left after few months Police started unnecesarily, to get rid off this
mishappening S Surjan singh went to neighbour country as there was nobody to
listen the grievences.When he came back after about two years Police again
arrested and sent him to prison From there he was released after about two
years. For seeing in no relent in police torchering he decided to fight for
justice and became millitant.At last he was killed in Police encounter
in1992.Not only this,whole of his family and relatives were torchered by the
Punjab police by keeping them in illigle police custody.Which was gross
voilation of human rights in itself and Bibi Kuldip kaur wife of Surjan
singh was pregnent in 1984 and remained in illigle police custody and made
to suffer the burnt of Police atrocities which effected the unborn child
also Afterward she gave birth to Palwinder singh who is studtying 8th class
with the help of Gur Aasra Trust in Mohali who is also under going
psychological treatment and same is the condition of the younger one
(Jatinder singh).S Avtar singh and his family Bibi Kulwant kaur and children
were also torchered and S Avtar singh died under mystereous circumstaces and
the youngest son Piara singh was killed in fake police encounter before S
Surjan singh whose wife along with two children is staying in Gur Aasra
Trust who is worried about her old Mother in law and children .The grandsons
and grand daughters of mata surjit kaur are studying in good school in
Mohali.
Bibi Daljit kaur is the wife of S Ajit singh Kadian was the Distt President
of Sikh Student Federation.His policies,services and other activities were
not liked by the government.He migrated to neighbour country to get escape
from the govt consipiracy after the Operation Blue Star. When he came back
after about two years was sent to prison after framing false cases.After
releasing from prison he countinued his activities.At last,He was arrested
from his in-law house by Ftehgarh Churrian Police and after two days of
police torchering was killed in Police encounter near Fatehgarh Churrian.At
present Daljit kaur is the mother of two children (son Kirpar singh 10
years,Chanrnpreet singh 8 years).Both are studying with the help of Gur
Aasra Trust.Gur Aasra Trust is sending finacial help in the form of family
pension who is staying at Maternal village.
-
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
..
.and i think what began as a movement withgood intentions has turned into a blind ritual of shouting slogans and
leaflets. Theres no actions..only words
I think neo made an extremely important point here..people talk about
khalistan on the internet and have marches in the streets..but what REAL
action is being taken?
Im not talking about going on killing sprees (it
wouldnt acheive anything) im talking about getting jobs in politics/making
contacts/working hard,etc. Instead these khalistanis are "gyanis" and
"preachers" and all other kinds of powerless jobs (in politics.)
I too was a khalistani..until i realised we have no khalsa to have
khalistan..and we have no leaders to make this ideal feasible.
Im totally against oppression, but asking for khalistan wont stop this.
Its something we have to do politically..and 84 prooved that in india, we
cant
win fighting physically.
We have to use the pen.
Sadh sangat ji, in the words of jarnail singh bindrawale (note theres no
shaheed there )
'im not for khalistan, and neither am i against it..if they(india) handed to
us, they we will accept it.'...)
Fauge you believe that there is no progress, that nothing is done that the people involved are ill qualified to further the cause, that empty rhetoric is the order of the day?
Well much in the same way that N30 felt that there was no relief or charity work for the victims of 84 (I have included something for you N30 veer at the end of this post) because he was not aware of any, you think that nothing constructive is being achieved, that the people involved are politically naive.
Well much in the same way as N30, you are wrong.
Just because you are not aware of something does not mean it doesn't exist. read the article below I have included it on a previous post, pay particular attention to the final comment by the writer.
..
UK SIKHSBlast From The Past
Potential votes get Khalistanis support from all British parties
SANJAY SURI
Just when everyone thought the Khalistan matter was dead and gone, it is
back, cleverly disguised as the Sikh Agenda produced by a group calling
itself the Sikh Secretariat. This time, not only are British leaders
listening, they're in a hurry to deliver what the Khalistanis want.
The disguise is simple but effective. The Secretariat is telling British
leaders it wants Sikhs to be given the option to enter their ethnic origin
in official data as Sikhs, not as Indians. By Home Office estimates, there
are 3.5 to 5 lakh Sikhs in Britain, now recognised as a part of the 1.2
million Indians.
The Sikh Secretariat wants official data to record their ethnicity
separately as 'Sikh', not as 'Indian'.
One change in the census form could dent that Indian population figure
significantly. And kick up a political storm in two countries.
The agenda for a separate identity in Britain overlaps with a separatist
agenda for India. The seemingly innocuous demand
British leaders are falling for is that the government find out how many
Sikhs there are, that it can't do so unless they are listed separately. But
items six and seven in the eight-point agenda make the real aim clear: lobby
for and promote the reasons to establish an independent Sikh
state—Khalistan.
These declarations would have been insignificant without the support of
senior Conservative Party leaders. Their reason is obvious. The Sikh
Secretariat has declared that they will vote for parties that deliver what
they want. The Tories stand invited to look at votes from what the
Secretariat advertises as a population of 7 lakh Sikhs.
At an annual convention of the Secretariat at the Guru Nanak Sikh Gurudwara
in Wolverhampton on September 22, shadow Tory minister for international
development and women's issues Caroline Spelman said it was "extraordinary
(British for outrageous) that the government has not cared to find out how
many of you there are". The Labour government should monitor Sikhs
separately and "if they fail, it will be a task for a Conservative
administration to deliver on".
Labour can see the votes as well. Local Labour MP Rob Marris turned up at
the Wolverhampton do to say there would be no need to wait for the 2011
census. There will be plenty of opportunities before then to list Sikhs
separately, he said.
He then turned to the Khalistan demand: "Those in the Indian subcontinent
who peacefully and democratically push for self-determination for that part
of the Indian subcontinent, their opinion for self-determination, their
right to ask for an independent Khalistan shouldn't be suppressed." Marris
said it would not be right for parties in Britain to decide whether there
should be self-determination in what he called that part of the Indian
subcontinent. "But it would be right for people to democratically and
peacefully express their opinions."
The comment elicited loud cries of "Khalistan zindabad". The gurudwara had
become something of a Khalistan centre for the day. The walls of the langar
hall were plastered with posters of Bhindranwale carrying a sten gun. There
were posters of police atrocities, K.P.S. Gill torturing Sikhs, torture
victims. Speaker after speaker praised "Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji
Bhindranwale". The Secretariat had said 10,000 would attend the rally. Only
a few hundred were around, but that was enough for the Khalistan leaders to
make their point to the Tory and Labour leaders.
The Sikh Agenda, launched at this gurudwara on September 16 last year, has
come a long way with strong Tory support. Spelman's speech followed strong
support from shadow home secretary Oliver Letwin and shadow minister Dominic
Grieve at a lobby day called by the Sikh Secretariat at Parliament on July
3. A group of Secretariat leaders then called on PM Tony Blair to present
their demands. Later, the Liberal Democrats, the third force in UK politics,
also expressed their support to the separate-listing demand.
"Just think what message this will give to them in Punjab," one of the many
Khalistani speakers said: the message that if this goes ahead, the British
don't think Sikhs are Indians. Behind the usual hot-headed speeches by the
usual Khalistanis, this move is being directed by some brilliant leaders
such as Kashmir Singh of the British Sikh Federation and Indarjit Singh, a
retired civil servant. These gently-spoken men in lounge suits are making
more headway than all those men with the sten guns.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..
Further(25th May 2004, 7pm, Grand Committee Room, House of Commons, London )
"It is important for all peoples that we seek not just the truth about the
events of 1984 and beyond in Panjab but that we also act for justice."
Jeremy Dear, General – Secretary, National Union of Journalists (UK)
"I offer my strongest support…to seek recognition of the progroms in
1984…Human rights violations against Sikhs over the last 20 years must be
identified, acknowledged and exposed…" Baroness Sarah Ludford, London Member
of European Parliament & Member of House of Lords (Britain)
Campaigners will tommorrow hold a PUBLIC MEETING in the House of Commons to
highlight the mass-scale slaughter of Sikh civilians in 1984 by the Indian
state. The PUBLIC MEETING will be addressed by representatives from Amnesty
International, the 1984 GENOCIDE COALITION and Members of Parliament.
The PUBLIC MEETING forms part of a sequence of campaign initiatives over
2004. These form part of a special 20th anniversary campaign to inform and
engage world opinion on the devastating events of 1984. Sikhs across the
world see 1984 as a HIDDEN GENOCIDE. Campaigners are keen to expose India's
concealed 'WAR OF REPRESSION & GENOCIDE', which they say has been conducted
behind closed doors and media censorship from 1984 to 1995. Amnesty
International and various UN Human Rights inspectors, have been barred from
India for many years.
British Campaigners have been working actively to engage support in the
House of Commons and European Parliament in support of a COMMISSION FOR
TRUTH & JUSTICE into the 1984 mass-scale slaughter. Many MPs have signed
three Commons motions - 662,663 & 664 on the subject, and similarly 30 MEPs
have signed a European WRITTEN DECLARATION.
Further public events are to follow over the next three weeks. This includes
a vigil outside 10 Downing Street on 4th June and a mass public
demonstration (London) on 6th June.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In summary much is being done, there will always be people like yourself who are fatigued and can no longer be bothered, the reaction of such people is invariably to voice criticism from the sidelines rather than involving themselves.
It is only too easy to blame others rather than looking at oneself, if the movement isn't as you see it 'working' then either do something about it or acknowledge that in your already complicated and demanding life this subject is not a high priority.
What you should not do is assume because you are unable to fit this into your schedule others cannot or others should not because you see it as futile posturing on their part.
I understand your apathy but speaking frankly the fickle nature of your comment " i too was a khalistani.." leads me to say you have made the correct decision to concentrate on issues that, as you see them are closer to home. I do not know how old you are or anything else about your background but believing in something like the right to self determination is a belief in a fundamental principle no different from believing in the equality of all men as example.
Not something you believe in today but change your mind about tomorrow.
Remember fauge the struggle continues, it can take decades, it can take different form's whether its the AK or the ballot box depends more on the global picture at the time. I think most Sikhs in the UK at least support the concept whether it be as an ideology or a reaction to the indian state injustice against the Sikhs over the past twenty years and more but there is
at this time a great deal of general apathy.To return to the groundswell of support of the mid and late eighties will require the indians to commit another huge and public atrocity against the Sikh nation unfortunately this is not a question of if but when.
There is no one in their right mind who would want to see this happen but as I have said it is as inevitable as the reaction. I listen to Sikhs say that they do not support 'khalistan' in some ways the term has been so maligned
by the power's that by over such a long period I am not surprised, but if they do not support the creation of a independent Sikh state than they are simply waiting to be dealt another blow by a state that cares nothing for it's minorities least of all those that it considers 'the enemy within'
There is of course, to india, a acceptable Sikh identity as espoused by the popular media of the day which wastes no time in remodelling the Sikh ethos to fit indias need and there is no doubt there are those who feel that we
can forget the past and carry on but for all their good intentions they are missing the point.
Our future is not dependent on our behaviour towards the majority rather it is the reverse our future is dependent on their behaviour towards us. You know the real irony of the 84 Sikh massacres in Delhi? The victims were the
indian text book Sikhs largely Hindi speaking, non-secessionist urbanites more partial to the Mahabharat than any talk of Sikh sovereignty, they considered themselves indians, did that help/save them?
You know the answer to that question you see regardless of their attempts at integration they were considered different, aliens if you will, to be taught a lesson and of course clearly visible as Sikhs.
Listening to a program titled 'after bluestar' on the BBC world service yesterday Mark Tully whilst visiting Harmandir Sahib asked why the white marble walkway in a particular area was stained red, the sewadar that was accompanying Tully said this is where the bodies of Sikh pilgrims murdered by the indian army were piled one upon each other before the municipal (rubbish) trucks were sent in by the army to collect the bodies, Tully asked 'there still red from the blood?' (sewadar) 'Yes' (Tully) 'after twenty years its still red, haven't you tried to wash it off?' (sewadar) 'we have tried everything but it will not wash away'....
Hearing that it made my think that even that inanimate marble has greater depths of love than many of us, after twenty years it has not denied, it has not forgot it still bears testimony to the blood of innocents, do you?
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
-
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
I did not wish to respond to some of the most recent posts since as predicted the thread has moved some distance from its original intention i.e.. the impact of a Sikh being installed as indian PM on the Sikh right to self determination.
However some of the comments made do need to be countered if for no other reason than to correct some misconceptions and factual inaccuracies.
Me And thats the problem singh..how can we have a country when most of uswho claim to be khalistani, dont have the desire or more importantly the
power to do anything about it..:
Above is nonsensical, why would anyone claim to advocate something if they did not desire it?
Surely if you lacked the desire of an objective then you wouldn't champion
it, would you?
The only way 'you will do anything about it' is if your desire outstrips your apathy, perhaps for you that may never happen.
As for your comment regarding power or as you see it the lack of it, it is a
good thing that not everyone is as
defeatist as yourself, indeed had this attitude been prevalent in the
formative years of Sikhi, we would not be
having this, or any other discussion on a Sikh website since none would have
existed.
At the end of the day, as cold as it sounds,we live in the uk..and we have our own problems to face. Trying to solve the
problems in the punjab isnt likely to happen in the uk, its something the
sikhs in india have to work for (of course with any help they need from us.).:
It is precisley because we live outside of india that we are uniquely placed
to be the unrestricted, uncensored voice for the Sikh nation,
we are fortunate enough to live in a society
where information is freely available, where opinion maybe openly expressed.
It is not a matter of separating 'our problems' from 'theirs' it is exactly
this lack of identifying 'their' problems as 'ours' that leads us to our current
situation.
History witnesses that those people(s) who are unable to secure their
sovereignty lack both impact and longevity on the world stage.
Our long term future existence as a Sikh nation regardless of where we
choose to live is absolutely dependent on the creation of a Sikh sovereign
state.
It is vitally important that the world acknowledges the plight of the Sikhs
and the genocide that they have been subjected to by the supposed democracy
of india, by raising awareness we will be fulfilling our commitment to all
those who have suffered and those who gave their lives for us. With the
world in the dark 'Panjab's' will continue, look at Gujrat, only by raising
awareness will india be exposed and think twice before dealing with its
minorities with impunity. Frankly it is the good fortune of
the Jewish people that this sort of thinking wasn't prominent following the
holocaust.
.
If anyone has the chance to read cynthia mahmoods book please do..i read thefirst few chapters and i was so touched and hurt at the treatment these
gursikhs received..until i read chapters later on, and realised some of
these "freedom fighters" were infact wrong in their actions i.e one singh
strapped bombs to a child and sent him in the middle of a hindu village
(because they were saying derogatory comments towards sikhs.)
Based on what you have written, it seems you managed to change your stance
on this issue in one turn of a chapter of one book. Firstly the book you mention is a well researched, well written and
impartial study of people who were involved in the liberation movement of
Panjab and subsequently escaped to find asylum in the west. Those that have
a pro-india stance would be less appreciative of this book as it points to many
truths that contradict standard indian propaganda.
Sikh-fauge, I do not know how many other books, articles, reports you have
read on the subject, I can assure you there are many, such as Who are the
Guilty (1984), Voices, Sikhs of the Punjab(1995),the nations tortured
body(2001),india and khalistan (1991),india commits suicide(1992),
Operation blue star(1993),Punjab to Khalistan(1987)
Aftermath of bluestar(1992),eye witness account of bluestar(1999),
chakravyuh web of indian secularism(2000)
Sikh in history(2000),The gallant defender(1999), politics of genocide
(1999) from a Scarred City (1985), Punjab Crisis and Human Rights (1985), The
Turning Point (1985), Oppression in Punjab (1986), I Swear An Indian
Torture Chamber (both published 1990), India Kills the Sikhs (1991) as well
as numerous Amnesty International, asia watch, physicians for human rights,peoples union for civil liberties
and HRW Report's to name but a few.
My point is that a subject of such fundamental importance and complexity
should not be determined on the reading of any one book. Further you either
embellish the contents of the book to suit your prejudice or at least you
have treated the subject trivially enough to not even read this book
properly, what you describe above is in fact not true.
The book recounts that the bomb was strapped to a bicycle and not a child as you contend further
the 'bike bomb' was left in a bazaar (market) there is no mention of any 'hindu village'.
The way that you have manipulated the text of the book is disappointing, you also
omit the summarisation of the author at the end of the chapter when she examines
the motivations behind such a bombing..."Dramatic acts of violence as Franz Fanon noted,
have the capacity to jolt the silent masses into an awareness of their power. This experience of sudden
empowerment seems to overcome hesitations relating to concerns for victims, on the part of both
perpetrators of the violent acts and the audiences who applaud them. Were the sense of disempowered
not so strong, acts of violent empowerment would not resonate as they do in the khalistani Sikh community virtually all of whose members assert the primacy of moral considerations in the separatist struggle".
Further the author speaking publicly a year after the release of her book had this to say....
Cynthia Keppley October 1998India is one of the most deeply unequal societies the world has ever known.
It is the type case for anthropologists and sociologists teaching about
rigid stratification systems, the polar end on the scale of social
hierarchy. It is hardly surprising that this system spawns periodic
violence. No amount of cultural relativism can explain away the degraded
circumstances of India’s millions of Untouchables, for whom the intricacies
of the religious philosophy that defines their status mean very little. How
much does it mean to an Indian Muslim that the state which failed to protect
his place of worship at Ayodhya from Hindu mobs proclaims itself to be
liberal and secular, to protect all faiths equally ? The claims of spiritual
depth and democratic commitment so celebrated in India don't ring true for
Dalits or for Muslims, for whom more concrete images of personal humiliation
and crumbled mosques eclipse all religious and political rhetoric. And for a
Sikh, the insult to the Guru that occurred in June of 1984 gives lie to
every government statement of support for the rights and freedoms of
minority communities
Despite all I have said just now, I want to make the assertion that although
the Khalistan movement is full of flaws and although its religious character
renders it alien to many of us in the West, and although it is chaotic and
can never be reduced to a kind of flow-chart military model – something I
once tried to produce for my book but had to give up quickly – the Khalistan
movement is in its essence a political and not a criminal movement...
To return to my opening remarks about the character of India, let me say that
when one looks at the broader, sub-continental context of Sikh insurgency,
one is brought to the inevitable conclusion that what we have here is a
political order that has hovered around the threshold between majoritarian
democracy and proto-fascism, and when it slips toward the latter it sparks
armed resistance.
Let me say this clearly. ‘The rhetoric of terrorism’,
carrying all the heart-pounding connotations of psychopathology and
monstrousness, covers up the plain fact that it is regular human beings who
have been pushed to involvement in the Khalistan movement by the
circumstances of late twentieth century India.
As long as we are unable to
see India for what it is, blemishes and all, we will be unable to see
Khalistanis and others like them as anything other than ‘terrorists’ beyond
reason and beyond redemption.
More significant, however, is the fact that the initial grievances of the
Khalistanis have not been resolved, and have been topped by fifteen years of
government excesses that have alienated a large proportion of the Sikh
population irrevocably. It is my considered judgement that eventually
tensions will rise once again – maybe in the form of the Khalistan movement
or maybe in some other form. I think it would be naive and shortsighted to
suggest that the current relative quiet means, in fact, ‘peace and normalcy’..
Last weekend, at another meeting, someone asked me whether, if the original
grievances of the Sikhs were resolved, a true peace and normalcy could be
established in Punjab. I had to say honestly that I did not think this was
the case. Had a greater measure of autonomy been granted Punjab and other
regions at the time of Independence, these Centre-periphery tensions might
have been avoided. But now a great deal of damage has been done, and much of
that damage does not relate to hydroelectricity, agricultural pricing, or
Chandigarh, but to the deeply wounded pride of a people. I do not know
whether the sentiments of these people who have experienced every sort of
fear, pain and degradation, can ever be brought round to a feeling of
pan-Indian pride and solidarity. I do know that any hope of the long-term
integration of the Sikhs with the nation of India will have to be based on a
full and fair accounting of the past fifteen years of atrocities. The
spiritual cleansing offered by a Peoples Commission might not be enough, but
it is a critical start in my opinion....)
.
There is two sides to a story...)This is a comment that tries to suggest that their is somehow some parity between the Sikh experience and that of the GOI or indian people, there is no parity whatsoever. India was the aggressor and instigator, the vast majority of civilian victims were Sikh, those imprisoned,raped and tortured by the police and army were Sikh, those disappeared, killed in 'encounters', imprisoned for years without trial were and are Sikhs, bluestar desecrated the most holy shrine of the Sikhs, all victims of the Nov pogroms were Sikh, all those denied and still denied justice are Sikh.
Yet you contend there are two side's to the story!!
This comment only serves to strengthen my belief that your opinions are based on a rudimentary knowledge of the topic, there is therefore little to be gained by even asking why you draw such conclusions, but with further regard to this being 'a story with two side's.'
There are opinion's some are based on facts whilst others are based on misinformation, the propaganda that was used by the indian government to justify bluestar and the subsequent 'information' issued through government and army officials into the aftermath of the attack, such as numbers of militants, numbers of dead, breakdown of men women and children, damage to akal takht, numbers of arms, discovery of illicit drugs, troop casualties, arson, removal of artefacts etc.etc.etc. have all subsequently been shown to be lies, this is not a matter of opinion or open to debate they were absolute, unashamed, downright, lies. How do we know this?
Because every single piece of information issued relating to the examples above was later revised or in a number of cases completely denied.
As a small example the Indian's originally issued a statement saying that there were 49 militants taking shelter in Harmandir Sahib, Lt.Gen Brar later offered these statistics "army casualties were 83 killed and 248 wounded; terrorist and other casualties were 492 killed and 86 wounded" Yesterday 24th May speaking on the BBC programme 'after bluestar' Lt.Gen. Brar puts the number of militants at 2,000! To further add to the confusion It is noted that PM Rajiv Gandhi addressing the national union of students at Nagpur in September 1984 referred to the 700 shaheed soldiers killed executing bluestar. (I.Jaijee P.O.G.) One statistic that is unequivocal however is that more gallantry awards were given for operation bluestar than the combined awards for indias four wars of 1948;1962,1965 and 1971.
This endemic lying resonates throughout the entire period of insurgency in the Panjab and continues to the present day.
The GOI has so twisted and distorted the facts that there are those like you who will contend that their are 'two sides to the story' without really looking at the fact's.
The idea that a individual act of barbarity, although unjustifiable is comparable to the sustained, pre-meditated assault on an entire people, employing the whole might of a national army, police and intelligence network, the use of all media by government to demonise the Sikhs both nationally and internationally, the corruption of the judiciary, the suspension of the rule of law, the passing of draconian legislation, the legitimisation of extra judicial execution, the imposition of martial law, the removal of the democratic process, the immunity from prosecution of the guilty. In fact the entire machinery of the indian nation state was pitted against one of its own minority communities, India had effectively declared a war on the Sikh's.
These actions as the action of choosing to perpetrate 'bluestar' on a recognised day in the Sikh calendar belies the governments intentions. The intention of GOI was to cause maximum Sikh civilian casualties. If not the case then why June 6th? If not why half a million soldiers? If not why give total impunity to the police and army? If not why cut off all communications, effectively turning Panjab into a open prison? If not why expel all media? If not, why ban entry of UN or Human rights delegations?
The Sikh armed response in any impartial and objective summary was never one intended to impose civilian casualties, if it had been it would have been far easier to move the battle out of the Panjab and bomb any number of indian cities. If the fight had not been focused firstly on defence and later moral struggle and resistance, cell's could have disappeared at will in the vast metropolis of delhi, bangalore, calcutta, bombay. If their intention had been to inflict mass civilian casualties, it would have been far easier than facing an army on the plains of the Panjab, in many ways taking the fight out of the Panjab would not have only been more effective in hurting the GOI it would also have meant that a far higher proportion of those killed would have been hindus rather than as it was, Sikhs.
The resistance movement imposed upon itself high moral standards, in stark contrast to its opponent. The GOI would hold on to Panjab regardless of the cost both in civilian and moral term's.
If the freedom movement had adopted the same principle i.e.. victory at any cost then there can be no doubt a Sikh state would be a reality today, however could a state built in such a way ever hold legitimacy? Would the end's justify the means? As Sikhs we must say no they would not. Equally does the GOI who adopted such amoral methods in order to 'win' hold any legitimacy? No, it cannot.
The situation in Panjab was created for nothing other than political gain it was not a issue of hindu/Sikh communalism as the GOI would have us believe. It is telling that the massacre of Sikhs in Delhi and all over india was not responded to by a massacre of hindus by the Sikhs in Panjab.
Gross injustice on this scale is never forgotten, it may be quelled by brutality for a generation or even more but the history of similar movements has always shown that the state will eventually reap what it has sown. The truth of Guru Nanak Dev Ji 'Apei beej ape hei khae' is not lost on the indian state which is why every effort is now being made to tear the 'seedlings from their roots.'
Two goals, revitalising Sikhi and achieving a Sikh homeland are not mutually exclusive on the contrary, if you recall the mid 80's just after 'bluestar' Sikhi was in ascendancy all over the world. Youth that had previously not given a damn were instilled with passion and wanted to declare themselves to the world as Sikhs. It has historically always been a ' just cause' that has re-awakened the spirit of dormant
Sikhs. The creation of a Sikh nation state and the resurgence of Sikhi go hand in hand.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
-
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
Dear Sukhbir,I really enjoy your previous posts and i like this one as well accept your naivness of air india case. And I appolized for ignorance on behalf of my side regarding Congress history.:
Thank you, but it is not naivety that leads me to my comment regarding the Air india case, instead the knowledge that had this case been as 'clear cut' as you seem to suggest then it would not be one of the longest running cases in Canadian legal history!
Regardless of declarations of guilt by any one individual there was undoubtedly Indian government connivance in this atrocity. Have you read the book 'soft target'? It may not be for some conclusive in its findings but it certainly raises enough question's about the covert involvement of agencies of the GOI, whatever the involvement of the individuals on trial you can be sure many more will go unpunished.
Further this post was about the impact of a Sikh PM on the movement for Sikh self determination, rather than the air india trial, my feeling is that you were presumptive in your suggestion of the guilty which is very much a question of speculation at this time and may continue to be so.
I shall ask this question.I wanted to know if there is any khalistani out there in western countries who would die to get 1984 victims justice right now???? .:
Without meaning to offend N30 this is something of a ridiculous question to put to any one person. I would hope that Sikhs regardless of their political ideology would, if neccesary, in the tradition of their faith place their lives at the feet of the almighty in order to gain justice for the victims of tyranny, Sikh or otherwise, this is not a matter of whether they are (to use your terms) 'khalistani' or not, frankly a divisive term that is intended to fragment and distort rather than offer any real understanding of people who are Sikhs who do believe that their future as a people/nation is, best served by the establishment of a autonomous Sikh state.
What do you mean by justice? Legal accountability for crimes?
You seem to assume that the only way that progress may be made is at the barrel of a gun, please re-read my post with regards to diplomacy and political lobbying. Sikhs in western countries are using effective democratic means to raise awareness of the victims of 84, this is the most effective means of shaming india at this time, the fact that it does not involve the literal giving of ones life does not draw from that.
The fact that their are so many Sikhs who would certainly not consider themselves 'khalistani' who wish to forget our recent history does much to hinder the victims cause.
The March in Hyde park on June 6th will be attended by people who have taken out their time and in most cases done so for the past twenty years, to raise awareness of the 84 victims ask anyone of these people if they believe in the struggle for sovereignty, unanimously yes. You may ask why should the memory of the 84 victims be the sole preserve of those who believe in Sikh secession from india? The question is actually posed in reverse, it should be, why do those who remember the victims of 84 believe in Sikh secession? The answer is in the question.
Forget about fighting over pen.. rest of the world knows how devil indian politics is...worry about those widows who are suffering.ok 2nd question.
Are any khalistani based groups out there who is helping out those 1984 widows out there fianically . If there is please direct us to site/email so that we can make donations??? .:
The widows of 84 and their families are not just the concern of those Sikhs you label 'khalistanis' but they should be on the conscience of the entire Sikh nation, it is certainly not helped by those Sikhs who wish to forget the entire episode in order to preserve indian hegemony.
There are groups who raise money to help run orphanages for the children of 84( i will forward you details) being in such a role would of course preclude their involvement in issues of a political nature the same would apply to charities in general.
This does not detract from the points I raised with regard to the appointment of Mr Singh, the subject of the thread and my opinion that he by virtue of past record, will not deliver justice to the Sikh's.
If there isnt any then i would say this is shame thing for us.I ll wait for your answers pateintly. And give you money figures groups like satnaam trust of bc have scammed from punjabi community to fill up their warm pockets. .:
Because some people have decided to line their pockets through the misery of others cannot be used as reason to ignore the plight of these people nor is it reason to taint the good work of genuine people. Any community on issue's such as these could cite instances of fraud it is not unique to any group or cause.
There is huge difference between khalistan movement back in sant ji and right now! I m sure you can figure out what???.:Not sure what you mean by this, what 'movement' are you referring to? For there is no single movement at this time that could be categorised as the movement for khalistan and you cannot surely categorise various people by a common denominator.
As example I wholeheartedly believe in the Sikh right to self determination, so does a colleague of mine who dealt with a lot of asylum applications from Sikhs in the mid-late eighties, he gained his knowledge of the subject both first hand and through personal research his name is Ross and he's scottish, does that make me and Ross 'khalistanis'?
One thing that is evident is that you have a very negative view of what you describe as 'khalistani, this may be the case for a multitude of reasons,personal experience etc. Although I am sure you have cited these on previous post's more focused on the issue of Sikh independence rather than the incoming PM.
Sorry to be repetitive, but the thread was about the impact of a Sikh PM on the struggle for self determination, my post dealt in volume with this point and contended there is no impact on this issue, that is still my contention, where as your first post saw the appointment of Mr Singh as a positive move that damaged the cause of Sikh secession, since you have not posed any questions on these particular points I can conclude that you accept the points made. N30 you have posed your questions and I have provided answers but please be aware that if the current course of posting continues it is inevitable that the thread will end up far from its original intention.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
-
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
Why Khalistan now???There is no discrimination from what i see... i openly protest against khalistan vote now.
I dont get it... let the pm work on 1984 killing cases and make a good image for sikhs.
I can see Khalsa raj concept coming in the picture rather than khalistan which is just peace of land. :
There seems to be huge political naivety on the part of some posters, N30 as example, in response to your statement above,
you may not see any discrimination, may I ask what draws you to this conclusion?
Have you for example read amnesty's most recent report on the Panjab situation, delivered only last year? It outlines continuing abuses by the indian state in Panjab. It is a fact that thousands still languish in prisons without trial or hope, widows still pine for justice, orphans are still asking why? Yet you see no discrimination?
One man a congress trade union leader (Lalit Makhan) who led massacres against Sikhs at the behest of HKL bhagat is assassinated by a Sikh for his part in the bloodshed, the indian authorities manage to track the assailant half way around the world to the USA have him imprisoned and then extradited back to india to face more jail time, such lengths are taken to ensure that justice is delivered to the family of one man, international boundaries are crossed, no expense is spared.Yet you see no discrimination?
For the families of Sikh victims any amount of effort in delivering justice is seen as futile, the men responsible have not left the country they are within walking distance of the police station, will justice ever be delivered to these Sikh families?
No it will not.
If you believe that PM Singh may facilitate justice, please read on. It is in fact paradoxical that despite the BJP pursuing the issue for its own cynical reasons, there was more hope of the perpetrators of Nov 84 coming to justice through the Nanavati commission under the auspices of Mr Vajpayee then there is under Mr Singh's Congress
Remember also the electorate did not vote for a Sikh had he stood for election on his own merit he would have lost, his previous electoral record is far from 'shining'.
The indians voted for a gandhi, streets were awash with people waving posters of Indira and Rajiv, both responsible respectively for the worst desecration in Sikh history and the wholesale slaughter of Sikhs in india wide pogroms.
So this is the bloodline, the dynasty that was voted for, not Mr Singh. Ironically it was indeed the worst enemies of Sikhs in contemporary history that were being honoured by the election of another gandhi, certainly not Mr Singh.
The shouts rising from the crowd following Sonias' refusal and the protest cry across many parts of india was in fact ' sonia nahiye that kohi nahiye' later revised to 'sonia nahiye tha rahul sahiye'.
Certainly no mention of Mr Singh. The fact that the PM of india is now a Sikh is of little significance, it was a Sikh president(Z.Singh) in residence when Bluestar was perpetrated, it was a Sikh president that for a short while held ultimate power in india whilst the mobs readied their kerosene and bicycle tyres, it was a Sikh president that inaugurated a hateful son to his mothers throne and looked on whilst members of his own community burnt.
Forget not the contributions of the Sikh police chief KPS Gill to the tragedy of a lost generation of Sikh youth, recall also the Sikh chief Minster who was only too accommodating of the central governments Sikh genocide, the late Beant Singh.
If Pm is devotee Sikh-- He would spread message of love and bring peace into india and peace into india and pakistan relationship.
- He would work on powerty in india.
- He would reform punjab (free from drugs, and this obbession of coming to western countries by putting jobs, creating job infracstructures).
- He would also work on gettin justice to everyone along with 1984 victimes/widows and bring sajan kumar and his team from congress into justice stand once again. (But thats going to be hard because after its politics and least expected since accused from his team).
-He would work on french sikh ban issue
- He would work with america regarding hate crimes (education of sikhi). But i bet you just by being an pm for india itself is an huge awareness of sikhi.
- He would work with pakistan regarding sikh gurdwara's
If he does all above and couldnt do the below even then he is a good human being and devotee sikh because main justice dharam raja does.. wordly justice doesnt mean anything to me anymore. Laws of vahiguroo are perfect... no cleverness, no bribe then...Jisssi Karni wassssi bharni....:
Quote:
He would also work on gettin justice to everyone along with 1984 victimes/widows and bring sajan kumar and his team from congress into justice stand once again. (But thats going to be hard because after its politics and least expected since accused from his team). :
PM Singh joined N. Rao's congress administration as finance minister in the 90's under this governments reign the police closed six cases against Sajjan Kumar alone as well as dropping many other cases against various congress workers, individuals.
Do I need to re-iterate that PM Singh has come to power through the same party that for this general election gave 'tickets' to Sajjan Kumar, Jagdish Tytler and RK Anand to stand again as MP's?
Effectively rewarding three of the most prominent men involved in the Sikh pogroms of 1984. This despite the fact that Justice GT Nanavanti commission, probing the 1984 carnage, issued section 8B notices to Kumar and Tytler, only six months before the election's!
Those notices to Tytler and Kumar were issued after recording evidence which suggests their complicity in the violence and is therefore prejudicial to their reputation. Despite this they were cleared to stand as candidate's for congress in outer delhi and sadar constituencies respectively.
So this is the party of the first Sikh PM of India, a party made up of MP's who lead assaults on innocent Sikh civilians murdering men women and children, MP's who led mobs with voting list in hand so that Sikh homes may be effectively targeted, MP's who paid for kerosene so that Sikh men and children may be burned alive, MP's who supervised the gang rape and molestation of Sikh women and girls, MP's who led mobs into gurudwara inciting them to burn the building's and worse (the sacrilege of Sri Guru Granth Sahib by burning, urination upon etc. is well noted in witness affidavits).
Indeed Mr Singh's party to whom he pledges allegiance is not only the party of Indira that conceived Bluestar and the Sikh massacres of November but the same party that made sure that under Rajiv not a single congress party leader would be booked by the police, indeed not a single booking was made by the police under his reign, incidentally PM Singhs address to the press following the announcement of his imminent appointment saw him declaring that he would carry on the "sterling work of Sri Rajiv Gandhi Jee" given that Rajiv's first work was three of the worst day's in contemporary Sikh history.
Mr Singhs words and actions, or lack of them, leave you in doubt as to where his loyalties lie. Remember the men who led the pogroms were not only the MP's of congress but personal friends of the Gandhi's, Rajiv himself was complicit in the massacre, he did not only allow three days of carnage without any intervention but later protected the perpetrators, this is the man that PM Singh eulogises?
Please stop this bullocks.Why not bring action give justice to those who were responsible instead of crying/whinnin in forgein countries.
I been hearing this whinnin for years now.. still no action... since people like to tell others and not look at their own manjiii .. what have they done for the movement??? Internet forums....???!? :
Bovine trouble?.....
The formation of lobbying and pressure groups in other countries by people(s) who wish to raise awareness and win international support for their 'cause' is a long established means of constructive protest, your statement above shows a lack of knowledge on your part as to the current nature of Sikh political lobbying in, as example the UK.
India cannot, given it's disgraceful history regard itself as a democracy.That is not to say that democracies do not exist, it is by lobbying these democracies and exposing india as the corrupt and vile state it is that international support can be won for the sikh cause. It is only through international diplomacy that the goal may be realised .
That doesnt quite count does it???????... why dont you sent your khalistani boys to india to give justice to those who killed innocent people in 1984... I ll tell you why the shake when takin over this mission?????????I ll tell you why... because lack of bhagti... look in urself in the mirror and ask yourself are you willing to be shaheed?? do you have that kinda naam abyhaas in you ?? If yes .. please carry on the with parchar of khalistan. If not then just shad it and work on the bhagti level ( i dont preach because i dont have bhagti in that level to preach). I m sorry to say this.... you want to make khalistan do it the josh which were at the times of sant jarnail singh ji times ......whats this bullocks?? khalistan zindabad all these slogans...judgin others of capablity...:
This is not as you suggest the motivation of fear but instead the motivation
of success, Sikhs are already making progress across the globe, by the grace of God the Sikh Diaspora holds greater and ever increasing levels of influence and wealth and this is not lost on politicians regardless of political persuasion, as well as those ordinary citizens who are disgusted by the reality of the indian state.
After 84 the Sikhs fought back because they had no choice the GOI had
carefully planned the attacks making sure that no foreign media may present a version of events other than their own they were also at pains to pit Sikh against Sikh so that any unity that may have existed eroded resulting in brothers turning on each other. That was a corner that we as a nation were backed into and we came out the only way we knew and rightly, taking the fight to the foe BUT there is no doubt the agenda was entirely set by the GOI we were simply reacting in the
manner in which they excepted us to.
That is exactly why we should not revert to type instead set the agenda
ourselves, we shall not be pushed into a situation that is out of our
control instead we shall set the boundaries and work within them using the
international community as referee and witness.
awareness is good, remembering of shaeeds mustBut when we remember what do we remember??? do we feel like pick up ak-47 or nitneem gutka??? If the answer is feeling like pick u ak- 47 then you know where you stand?? where is your fear-level is ?? where is your bhagti level is?? Because first you become saint and then soldier..not other way around... ...:
It is our duty to expose the true nature of the indian
regime. As for armed struggle, as I have already stated there can be no intention of falling into another
baited trap, the sort of trap that turned Sikh against Sikh and wiped out a
entire generation of young men. History bear's testament to the genocide carried out by the GOI throughout
Panjab through the 80's/90's, the armed struggle that arose from the ashes of amritsar was a just response since "all means of redress had failed".
If you pick up nitneem gutka and do patt while remembering shaheeds and guroo maharaj .. thats what i call real khalsa and khalistani!!Sukdev i think you should first work on sorting out sikhs who are abusin khalistan name which was suppose to be spirtual movement rather than bunch of fanatics (cold-bloosed morons) who blow up planes and buses and kill up innocent people!!!!!!!!! ...:
Your final comments are assumptive and therefore misjudged, who was responsible for the 'blowing up' of the Air India flight you refer to as well as the counter- insurgent attacks on innocent civilians in the period 84-92 in Panjab is very far from resolved, certain points however can be given as fact.
Did the Indian intelligence service go to Canada with the express purpose of infiltrating the Sikh community? Yes.
Was Canadian and world opinion turned against the Sikhs and thus their cause by the bombing of the air india flight? Yes.
Did the Panjab police under the auspices of the central government carry out attacks on civilians whilst adopting the guise of militants? Yes. Was the Panjab police advantaged by this tactic by turning Panjab peasantry against the militants? Yes.
As a further example both to confirm that the GOI is not averse to these sort of tactics as well as confirming that they are not consigned to history but still in rude health, we need only look at the Chittsingpora massacre. Violence is never preferable to diplomacy, no Sikh guru ever said it was. I am not talking of any 'ghandian' notion of non violence, to be unable to react violently is not non-violence it is merely acceptance of your situation.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
-
Vahiguru ji ka Khalsa
Vahiguru ji ki Fateh
Total as of today 7393. Please continue to support this.
http://www.petitiononline.com/84geno/petition.html
DONT FORGET THE DEMO ON 6 JUNE IN HYDE PARK FROM 11AM.
Sunday June 6th 2004, Hyde Park, London
Come here to remember the shaheeds 20 years on since 1984. langar will be served
at 11am in Hyde park, following speeches in English and Punjabi about our rich
history and about our shaheeds whom we must never forget. Following this will be
a march lead through the streets of London lead by the Panj Pyare. Please bring
ramaals / chunnis as you will need them for the beginning and the ending of the
event.
For more information contact your local Gurdwara (who may be providing coaches)
or Federation of Sikh Organisations.
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
For those of you living in the UK, please make enquiries as to whether your gurudwara has arranged coach travel. If not, it is of vital importance that you make representations to them, possibly with the support of older members of the sangat to ask them why they have not?
We are often left frustrated, knowing what is 'right' and what clearly is not but impotent to do anything constructive to change our situation we decide to 'bury our heads in the sand', distract ourselves or convince ourselves it is not my problem, 'what can I do anyway'?
This is your opportunity to do something, it may not seem earth shattering but even the longest journey begins with a single footstep. If through your persistence and determination you manage to bring even one more person to this gathering than would have ordinarily attended, then you have done something worthwhile. We are fortunate to live in a country that protects our right to protest, there are many other's who live in supposed democracies, like india, who cannot.
Twenty years in terms of human history is a drop in the ocean, the Sikh situation within the nation state of india is very much a process still in flux, there are those that want us to conveniently consign events to the past, to forget, to 'move on'.
How can we when justice is still denied? Whilst the crime is still in progress? While the victim count is ever rising?
To forget, ignore, turn away, is to ensure that history will certainly repeat itself, understand the massacres of Gujrat 2002 were carried out in the safe knowledge that the government of the day in Nov 84 had allowed all concerned a free licence to kill, rape, mutilate and loot.
Why should they then fear justice now when nothing has changed?
Make the effort on June 6th, you and I owe a great number of people an enormous debt, this is the least we can do.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
-
-
Indian Express - 30 April 2004
Twenty years after
A declaration tabled in the European Parliament wants
a UN probe into the 1984 anti-Sikh 'genocide'.
Diplomatic trouble for India?
BHAVNA VIJ-AURORA
NEW DELHI: NEWS of a declaration recently tabled in
the European Parliament - asking for a UN
investigation into 1984 anti-Sikh riots and to regard
them as a genocide - is beginning to evoke varied
response in India.
While some in the Sikh community predictably welcomed
the move, government officials and foreign policy
specialists see it as ''motivated mischief to
embarrass India.''
The written declaration, tabled in the European
Parliament by four of its members on April 19, called
for setting up of a ''Commission of Truth and
Justice'' under the auspices of the UN. The aim of the
Commission, as stated in the declaration, would be to
''comprehensively investigate whether the slaughter to
which Indian Sikhs were subjected in 1984 constitutes
genocide as defined in the Genocide Convention and the
relevant international law.''
The four members of Green Party - Jean Lambert,
Caroline Lucas (both from the UK), Matti Wuori
(Finland) and Alima Boumediene-Thiery (France) - urged
the European Union to study reports of the events of
1984, and extend support to declare it a case of
genocide. The Members of European Parliament (MEPs)
specially asked the EU to study reports compiled by
American-based Human Rights Watch and British-based
Amnesty International which documented ''widespread
abuse of the human rights of Sikh activists and Sikh
civilians by the Indian authorities.''
It is believed that the MEPs were petitioned by
various Sikh groups based in Europe to take up their
cause.
Eminent Sikh author and intellectual Patwant Singh
strongly favoured an investigation by a Commission of
Truth and Justice. ''The state presided over the
killings of the Sikhs. The state encouraged it. If
that is not genocide, what is?'' he said.
Singh compared the 1984 killings to the genocide
committed by Hitler against the Jews. He said, even if
nothing came out of the inquiry, it will at least
generate the fear that in the future such things would
not be tolerated. ''If an international body takes up
the issue, the government will be more alert,'' he
added.
Former foreign secretary J.N. Dixit, now a Congress
politician, refused to agree that what happened in
1984 could be termed as genocide. ''A genocide is when
there is a prolonged programme to annihilate a
particular community. What happened here was only for
three days. I agree it was very bad but the violence
was provoked by some Sikhs who killed the then Prime
Minister,'' he said.
He said that India would never agree to such an
inquiry. ''They will first have to seek our permission
if the Commission wants to carry out any
investigations. We will never allow such a thing. It
is motivated mischief by some people and should be
nipped in the bud,'' Dixit said.
The declaration was moved in the European Parliament
under its Rule 51 of the Rules of Procedure. The
declaration noted with ''immense concern and alarm the
carnage of 1984, twenty years ago, in Panjab and
India, involving the deaths of tens of thousands of
Sikh civilians.''
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
A rather typically indian response, concerned about their reputation, not concerned about any attempt to get at the truth. Mr Dixit is entirely right when he states 'india would
never agree to such a thing' he is of course entirely wrong in his
comprehension of the word genocide. I have included a number of dictionary
definition's below, I would say the events of November 1984 fit quite snugly .
His assertion that it was provoked is really below comment, the fact that
this man was a former foreign secretary speaks volumes about the quality of
indian politicians. We certainly did not see a mass backlash against Brahmins
when Nathuram Godse shot the Mahatma a man more revered than the psychotic
indira ever was, however would the slaughter of brahmins, had it taken place be justified by
Nathu's provocation?
On the contrary Nathu is regarded as a hero by many
indians, a true soldier of hindutva even the RSS, the organisation from
whom he hailed is more popular than it has ever been .
"It is motivated mischief by some people and should be nipped in the bud,''Hardly a novel reaction in indian political circles, after all we are faultless, it must be people
who are anti-indian 'out to get us' and besmirch our good name, only surprise
being that he is not blaming pakistan...yet.
Will india ever allow a organisation such as the UN to carry out a
independent enquiry?
In a word, no.
Will Sikhs or other minorities ever realise justice in the nation state of
india?
Frankly no, never.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
GENOCIDE:
The intentional annihilation of a national, ethnical, racial, or religious
group.
august1.com/pubs/dict/g.htm
The systematic killing of people because of their race or ethnicity.
hrusa.org/hrh-and-n/Part-5/6_glossary.htm
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national or racial group.
www.earlham.edu/~pols/globalprobs/bosnia/glossary.html
the deliberate and systematic extermination of an ethnic, religious, or
cultural group.
web.isp.cz/jcrane/Glossary.html
The deliberate, systematic killing of an people or nation.
Mass murder of a racial, national, or religious group.
www.banthebomb.org/educ/glossary.html
– the extermination of a cultural or racial group.
www.whitehall.k12.mi.us/curriculum/socialstudies/glossaryofterms.htm
systematic killing of a racial or cultural group
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn
P.S.
Workload being what it is at the moment, I have only just read the thread 'Akal Takht as fortress' and was disappointed to see the thread closed, must admit to being somewhat bemused by the contrary nature of some posters views when compared to their posts from the 'Shaheedi immortality...' thread.
I believe the poster of this thread missed the point, that being, fortified or not the Harmandir Sahib complex was going to be attacked by the indian army, that is an absolute. Sant Bhindrawale was simply a pretext, his arrest could have been effected at many times prior to June, in fact there were no outstanding FIR's against him at the time of the attack, besides the simultaneous assault on at least 37(as many as 74) other Sikh Gurudwara at the same time somewhat negates the argument that this was about the apprehension or containment of one man, the other 37 gurudwara as well as those burned in the run up to June 84 or for that matter those attacked in Nov 84 were not fortified, did this prevent their sacrilege?
Clearly not.
The fact that some Sikhs decided to defend their holiest shrine is a act which should be admired, be under no illusions defended or not the army was going to storm the complex and kill Sikhs, the date chosen for the attack was not coincidence it was intentionally chosen to inflict maximum damage.
Below is an interesting quote which exposes the widely held belief that bluestar was a response to Sant Bhindranwale, as contemptuous.
On May the 5th 1984 Rajiv Gandhi visited Panjab; speaking in Chandigarh he described Sant Bhindranwale as "a saintly man without political ambitions." p.o.g./ I.S. Jaijee
This less than a month before the attack?
There will always be those whom seek to justify bluestar as being perpetrated in response to the actions of Sant Bhindranwale, this is a mistake not only for the reasons given above. It is impossible to look at the fortification of the Harmandir Sahib or the Sikh situation as a whole in isolation.
It must be understood in context of the prevailing political climate of the time, it was not paranoia which led the Sant to concentrate on the grave injustices suffered by Sikhs at the hands of indian authorities, indeed events since 1984 have left us in doubt of the veracity of his claim's, but even in the years and months preceding June 84 we can see a determined increase in the governments anti-Sikh agenda, as example.
February 20, 1984.
The Congress chief minister of Haryana provoked an anti-Sikh riot through his inflammatory speech "warning the akali leaders that hindu patience is running out and retaliation was near". Satish Jacob (BBC) saw police looking on as hindu mobs burnt down the gurudwara in Panipat. He also witnessed Sikhs pulled from buses and forcibly shaved, Sikh shops looted, eight Sikhs were clubbed to death that day.
Bear in mind that the Congress chief minister that incited these actions was not only a minister of the ruling government of india but a close personal friend of I gandhi.
So this was the situation that Sikhs found themselves trapped within, the ruling government of 'their' country had decided that seeing the desertion of the muslim vote from congress the Sikhs alienation followed by retribution against them was a certain vote winner amongst hindu chauvinists.
Bluestar was conceived and gestated on political ambition it was nurtured on vanity and executed in reckless hate, it was the last gasp of a woman who was no stranger to inciting communal and religious tensions to fuel her megalomania therefore fortification was no provocation as none were needed, the defiant protection of a Sikh shrine could do no worse than to allow history to record that the proud spirit of Sikh resistance to tyranny is still existent.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
-
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
Below is a review of the latest indira biography,its available on Amazon.
The BBC poll shows how many indians still hold her in high esteem despite
her diabolical acts.The worlds most evil dictator would have been a more
appropriate category, she may not have won but she would have made the short
list, the very short list.
Even if we leave the Sikh and Kashmir situation's out of the equation(she
is ultimately responsible for both), her 'emergency' leading as it did to
forced sterilisation (23million people) false imprisonment, corruption
of the judiciary amongst other heinous acts shows the woman had little
regard for democracy or the rule of law.
The fact that she is still revered in this way by the majority of indians in
spite of her engineered Sikh genocide speaks volumes about how that country
still views the Sikhs and is a very clear message that we as a community
ignore at our peril.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
Indira" by Katherine FrankIndira Gandhi led the most populous democracy of her time, but finally,
ruthless and paranoid, she couldn't resist the temptation of tyranny.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Paul Festa
"March 26, 2002 | Just before assuming the highest office of the world's
most populous democracy, Indira Gandhi entertained a fantasy of escaping
public service by moving to London and becoming an anonymous landlady. After
reading Katherine Frank's new biography of Gandhi, "Indira: The Life of
Indira Nehru Gandhi," one rather wishes that she had, despite the hardship
this would have imposed on Bloomsbury renters.
Gandhi assumed power reluctantly at first, rebuffing those who sought to
draft her into various public roles in favor of serving quietly in the
shadow of her father, the prime minister. But like the teetotaler who, once
alcohol passes his lips for the first time, never draws another sober
breath, Gandhi fought to retain power once she had it -- and with enough
zeal and ruthlessness to reduce the Indian constitution to a pile of
saffron-dyed confetti.
It may help to explain her later antipathy to democratic institutions that
she was born in the cradle of Indian democracy, because Gandhi had to
compete with it for her parents' time and attention. For the most part, she
lost.
She was born in 1917, the only child of Jawaharlal Nehru, the revolutionary
agitator who would become India's first democratically elected leader when
the country gained its independence from Britain in 1947, and his
consumptive but politically active wife, Kamala. (Indira Gandhi was no
relation to Mohandas, a close friend and mentor of the Nehru family.)
Life in the Nehru household ran on an erratic schedule, with Jawaharlal
being carted off to jail every so often by the British authorities for his
pro-independence activities, and Kamala (in addition to serving a
politically valuable jail stint of her own) trekking off to quack healers
and European health spas in her protracted march toward death from
tuberculosis at the age of 37.
Indira Nehru, despite being a tubercular basket case herself (she's
seriously ill or monumentally depressed about once every 20 pages for the
first third of the book, until the TB cure reaches New Delhi in the late
1950s), married one of her mother's acolytes, Feroze Gandhi. In terms of
both personal and political comity, their marriage compared with other
historically significant events in Indian history, including three wars with
Pakistan and any number of domestic Hindu-Sikh conflagrations.
After years of infidelity, illness and intranuptial political discord, the
charismatic husband and his ambitious wife were for the most part estranged.
However, before Feroze's death from a heart attack at the age of 47, they
managed to produce two sons: Rajiv (who would follow in his mother's
footsteps to serve as India's prime minister, from her assassination in 1984
until his own in 1991) and Sanjay.
It was Nehru's death in 1964 that knocked Gandhi from the sidelines of power
to its pinnacle. She had yet to be popularly elected to any post, but she
had become a force to be reckoned with. She was president of the Indian
National Congress (a political party) and, as a result of traveling
frequently with her father, had become a world-famous personality on a
first-name basis with monarchs, presidents and prime ministers around the
globe. Following the brief and undistinguished interregnum of Lal Bahadur
Shastri -- whom Indira repeatedly upstaged from the vantage point of his
cabinet and her newly appointed seat in the upper house of the Indian
legislature, potentially contributing to his death by heart failure not two
years into his term -- Gandhi was the clear choice to assume power.
The vile, crushing marriage of Gandhi and Indian democracy had a decent
enough honeymoon. In 1971 she led the military victory over U.S.-backed
Pakistan that resulted in the independence of the wracked nation of
Bangladesh. Emerging from this triumph, Gandhi found herself virtually
deified by the Indian people and became, according to a Gallup poll, the
world's most admired person. Considering its geopolitical consequences on
the Indian subcontinent today, her detonation three years later of India's
first nuclear device may or may not qualify to Western readers as a
highlight of her 18 years in office, but the underground explosion certainly
played well in the Punjab.
Gandhi followed up those victories with electoral landslides in which her
markedly socialist policies helped rally the poor -- her natural
constituency -- to the polls in large numbers. But trouble loomed on the
horizon in the form of what today might be called a vast right-wing
conspiracy against her. Capitalizing on some minor elections infractions she
committed, Gandhi's political and judicial enemies nearly succeeded in
wresting power from her.
But they might as well have tried to part a lit pipe from an armed crack
whore. The picture that emerges most vividly of Gandhi at this juncture, and
for the rest of her political life, is one of an addict yearning for the
more serene life that awaits her if she can only quit her drug but
frantic -- and ruthless -- the moment its withdrawal is threatened.
Alternatively, and more kindly, you could view her as a classic tragic hero
out of Shakespeare or Sophocles. Proud, paranoid and perpetually wounded
(like her nemesis Richard Nixon), Gandhi clung to power so tenaciously and
with so few scruples that she laid the groundwork for her most precipitous
falls -- including her final one into the murderous hands of her own
bodyguards.
Her favored son, Sanjay, plotted out the Machiavellian schemes executed in
her name. Gandhi's closest and most corrupt advisor, he plays a composite of
Goneril, Iago and Lady Macbeth to Gandhi's increasingly myopic and
manipulated crypto-monarch. (As one participant in the events reflected, his
death in a 1980 plane crash was as lucky for India as it was unlucky for
Indira.) But even setting aside Sanjay's criminal associations and tactics,
his fraudulent business enterprises and dictatorial leanings, his mother's
political character emerges as one increasingly hostile to the democratic
values that inspired the men and women who brought her, and an independent
India, into the world.
Consider the dismal two years of Gandhi's Emergency, her end-run around the
enemies who nearly ousted her on the elections charges: Hundreds of
thousands were jailed for dissent, with nearly two dozen deaths from
desperate conditions in overcrowded prisons. Some were tortured. As many as
23 million Indian men were sterilized under Sanjay's coercive
population-control scheme, and many thousands were rendered homeless by his
"beautification" program of bulldozing slums. Meanwhile the domestic press
was muzzled, the foreign press was expelled, the world's largest democracy
went without elections and the courts and the constitution were all but
disemboweled.
Or consider her cynical practice, late in her life as her paranoia
intensified, of playing her enemies off one another for her own political
advantage -- even at the cost of letting bloody religious conflicts,
including the one that inspired her assassination, play out until they had
spiraled out of control.
With friends like Gandhi, India's democratic institutions, its impoverished
masses and victims of religious intolerance hardly needed enemies.
Without delving too deeply in the shadowy realm of psychobiography,
Katherine Frank identifies formative experiences and childhood wounds that
help explain the paranoia and near-megalomania that would characterize
Gandhi at crucial junctures in her career.
But she is too forgiving by half in analyzing Gandhi's thirst for power.
Gandhi's problem, Frank writes, is that the Indian prime minister believed
that only she was capable of leading her nation. That is a charitable view,
suggesting that Gandhi had a high opinion of her own capabilities and a low
one of her opponents'.
A more illuminating analysis of Gandhi's relationship to power might suggest
that her proximity to it gradually stripped her of everything else in her
life. She devoted everything to her father and his career, and he only grew
away from her. With her parents' deaths, her husband's abandonment and
death, her son's death, a creeping alienation from her few close friends and
finally a permanent estrangement from her daughter-in-law and grandson,
Gandhi (her left eye twitching furiously) ultimately wound up with one fix,
one rush, one companion. She didn't even drink. All that was left to her was
power -- that, and the adulation of multitudes, the greatest multitude a
democratically elected leader had ever served.
Even as she ached for the normality and peace of private life, the woman
dubbed Empress Indira by admirers and critics alike could not bear to be
parted from her crown. India suffered for it no less than did Indira. To the
extent that Gandhi failed to produce lasting solutions to India's chronic
woes -- religious tensions and the now-nuclear-charged conflict with
Pakistan over Kashmir -- and to the degree that she sought to preserve her
own power by playing politics with those incendiary situations, India, along
with the rest of us, is still suffering for her shortcomings.
-
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
Nihangs smoking sukha!!!!!!! WHAT AJOKE!
I take it the problem you have with this statement is the form of ingestion
suggested? i.e. they do not 'smoke' the hemp,instead take it orally,by this
standard is the 'chewing' of tobacco acceptable?
And as for the Nindia of Jathedar Baba SantaSingh Ji well…..get your facts right:
Who should get their fact's right? Since I never mentioned Santa Singh I can
only assume you are referring to the writer's of this quote from the
literature that accompanies the album.
"...for those who still think Sikhs aren't being oppressed in Panjab andacross India. Much like the '*angs' (not Nihangs) of Santa Singh(opium and
flesh abusers disguised as Sikhs) of 1984, the so-called protectors of the
Akal Takhat....they weren't there in 1984, they can keep their expertise in
the battlefield and fight the goats":
Is that what you were referring to?
Far be it from to defend the statements of another it would be presumptive of
me, however some of the accusations are mere statements of fact i.e. the
known consumption of meat and opium by many who regard themselves as
Nihangs, the offence as you would see it would be the use of the word
'abusers' rather than the stating of fact. Of course like anything else it
is a matter of perspective, the abuser is in the eye of the writer, a
'tee-totaller' would regard a 'drinker' as a abuser of his body, as a non-smoker
would regard a smoker as a self-abuser. Therefore it is the prerogative of
the writer to write from his perspective, as you do.
The 'nindia' of Santa Singh is a bit more complicated, there is no direct
accusation save for the writer's opinion that the people that are represented
by Santa Singh are to his mind not Nihangs, by his definition, as to what his
definition may be is again a matter for the writer.
I will say this much in regard to Santa Singh, his collaboration with the
Indian Government following bluestar in direct contravention of Sikh interests
is no secret and led to his excommunication from the panth, a punishment
which he accepted after some seventeen years in 'exile'.
Looked at in a historical comparative his actions would have been equal to a
Sikh, regardless of grandeur of title and position(if anything all the
worse for it) accepting money and assistance from Ahmed Shah Abdali for
reconstruction after his destruction of Harminder Sahib whilst allowing his
tobacco smoking, shoe wearing and in the case of the Indian army alcohol
drinking soldiers to mill around the complex whilst enforcing a curfew with
orders to shoot on sight, in the surrounding city.
Hypothetically speaking, if there had been an individual who had carried out such actions from that period, how do you think he would be remembered by the Sikh community? What words do you think may be used to describe him or his action's?
Excerpt taken from Prof.Sangat Singh's 'The Sikhs In History, a millennium
study'
""...Buta Singh's inability to meet the conditions of withdrawal of troops from the Golden Temple complex laid down by Baba Kharak Singh, to undertake the 'kar seva', reconstruction of damaged shrine by the voluntary service of the community, which was in the best traditions of Sikhism, was glaring......Lt.Gen.Tirath Singh Oberoi landed in amritsar on July 13, to negotiate thekar seva..while the army insisted on keeping a picket at darshani
deori,...New Delhi's duplicity was obvious from the fact that this period of
negotiations was utilised to transport a fleet of buses of Santa Singh's
Nihangs from Bhatinda, 300kms away, guarded by Punjab Police commandos,
Indira's special confidant and K.C.Pant flew from Delhi on the evening of
July 16th, and conveyed the move to the army brass. The Generals now
unabashedly told Akalis that Indira had decided that they were still
untrustworthy and the man dubbed Indira's 'favourite nihang', Baba Santa
Singh had been brought in for the kar seva.....The five high preists struck
immediately and issued a hukamnamah barring the Sikhs from participation in
the kar seva without their sanction. Santa Singh refused summons and was
immediately excommunicated....":
Following the demolition of the Indira sponsored re-construction of the Akal Takht it was pulled down to allow it to be re-built by the Sikhs, this time with legitimacy...
"The rubble of the demolished Akal Takht yeilded a rich crop of meat bones, earthen peices of 'chillums', razor blades etc- all thrown by troops sacrilegiously into the building material at the time of construction under auspices of Baba Santa Singh.":I will refrain from personal comment on the actions of this man and leave it to the reader to draw his/her own conclusions. I will say that your perceived 'nindia' of him, by the album producers, if there has been any, is probably related to the episode above.
"Baba Santa Singh is surely to be considered thejathedar of the SIkh qaum"
Baba Nihal Singh
ps: i love that quote baba nihal singh. and fauge u da mantoo!!!
Is this the same Baba Nihal Singh, whom along with late Baba Mangal Singh
Satlani and Baba Bikramjit Singh were also excommunicated for taking part in
Indira's Kar seva?
I would suggest that this album should be bought by all regardless of
persuasion after all even if it is not to your taste musically, you have
given some money to a worthy cause as well as hopefully realising the
immense suffering and injustice suffered at the hands of the indian state and by Gods grace, go on to realise, the very real threat it still hold's for us all today, to coin a
phrase JAGO!
Sukhbir Singh
P.S. I thought it pertinent to add a small excerpt from the album
introduction (hope not too much of a liberty I.P?) for those who may not have yet bought the album and thus not read it. When someone has the courage to speak the truth it is rarely a comfortable experience for those who have a vested interest in hiding it.
'...We rightly remember the sacrifices made by our forefathers centuries agoto uphold our freedom to practice Sikhi. Yet in recent time's, we have been
forced to forget our most recent history which has seen a second rising of
the sikh spirit since the 1980's.
Our History during the last century has been distorted through the spin of
right wing Hindu fanatics, who have overseen betrayal after betrayal since
partitioning the mythological india, and the Sikh homeland of Panjab.
The Mughals barbarically without prejudice cleansed the feilds of Panjab
with the blood of the young sahibzadas-afraid of the Sikhi spirit and the
revolution they could inspire through the message of freedom and tolerance.
More recently the right wing fascist Nazis of india, disguised as legitimate
religious groupings such as RSS,Arya samaj, Shiv Sena,Bajrang Dal, Nirankari
and BJP have continued this cycle of genocide. On the world scene their
views are represented and sanctioned by World hindu council,Seva
international and student bodies such as the Hindu students forum.
Ultimately their message is hindi-hindu-hindustan. Sikhs after apparently
'basking' in nearly 60 years of indian independence are still categorised as
hindu in the indian constitution, which has never been signed by any Sikh
representative.
Many Sikhs are duped by the hindu cry of brotherly blackmail-that Sikhs were
founded to protect the hindus from islam. But lets not forget!
Who alleged to the mughals that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji contained passages
which were blasphemous to Islam- and led to the martyrdom of Sri Guru Arjan
Dev Ji? The Hindu local cheif Chandu after Guru Ji refused his daughters
hand in marriage to Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji.
Who came begging to Sri Guru Teg Bahadur Ji to save them from conversion
leading to the Guru Teg Bahadur ji's martyrdom? Hindu pandits of Kashmir.
Who hounded Guru Gobind Singh Ji from Anandpur Sahib leading to the
martyrdom of many Sikhs including the Sahibzadas? Hindu hill rajas who had
sided with the mughals and felt threatened by the rise of Sikhi.
Who actually handed the younger Sahibzadas to the Mughals?
Gangu a brahmin who had served under Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.......
Two decades have also passed since the cruel riots of November 1984,staged
across india which saw the calculated and pre-meditated massacre of over
20,000 Sikhs. Thousands of Sikh children where orphaned and many thousands
of Sikh women gang raped, countless Sikh shrines attacked and destroyed. Sikh
property and business looted. To this day in 'free' and 'democratic' india,
not a single individual has been convicted or sentenced....a whole generation
of Sikh youth has been wiped out in india during the last two decades of the
anti-Sikh lynching through 'police encounters, which were in reality extra
judicial executions,or commonly know to human rights organisations as fake
police encounters.Many others have been tortured to death, some missing
never to return to their loved ones, thousands remain in prisons and
hundreds on death row........this album is dedicated to those individuals who
have given their all to uphold the tradition of martyrdom,we pay homage to
the Shaheeds of the Sikh Nation from past to present, those who continue to
tread the path and those who will play the game of love through
shaheedi--they will be immortal and never forgotten........:
-
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
You're right AS Kang! It's just cheap Khalistani propaganda!Cheap? As opposed to quality propaganda?
The Dhadhi Vaaran included in the album, as those sung by Jagowale are a matter of historical fact in that they recount actual events that took place in and around the Panjab at that time, as to whether you regard it as propaganda or information is simply a matter of whether you believe that justice and truth should be respected values or not.
You see propaganda is defined as the organised promotion of information in order to assist or damage the cause of a government or movement, so by spreading this information which is factually correct they are damaging the cause of a government/state that has failed to provide any justice to the Sikhs in the past twenty years, consequently they are assisting a group (Sikhs) by raising awareness of their plight.
So I suppose it is matter of whether your own personal prejudice is damaged or assisted by what you hear.
the album is not even all that! theres one track 'jaago' thats actually worth listening toOf course that is your opinion and your welcome to it, there is no accounting for taste poor or otherwise.
as for the 'jathebundee' that actually backs thisalbum - its ok for them to back this 'new age' type of dhaarmak geet (as
obvsiously it promotes 84) where as they are totally ignorant when it comes
to other new age types of sikhi stuff like that 3ho, dya singh, khalsa palay
do. i wonder why?!?!
Who are you referring to?How are you privy to what they are or are not ignorant of?
i appreciate the efforts of shaheedi immortality but something tells me thealbum has more to do with POLITICS rather than sikh awareness, music, or
bani
Thank you so much for stating the obvious and your point is?
Sikh awareness is inclusive of the understanding of the Sikhs political situation both present and past. The spiritual and the temporal are inseparable, the whole history of the Sikhs as with the history of any other 'people' is concerned with politics, think about it.
The creation of the Khalsa, as example, was as much a result of the political situation that existed in that period as the socio-religious.
The album is very clear in its intention i.e. to raise awareness of momentous events that have affected the Sikh nation in recent times, in that it succeeds admirably.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
-
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
A fantastic album, well conceived and executed, definitely a welcome development. Despite many who would wish us not to, we need to raise awareness of our contemporary history amongst our youth and their is nothing at all wrong with using a contemporary style in order to do it.
The album sleeve and its introduction is both informative and uncompromising, as it should be. 'Cheap' is not a word that can be associated with this album, the lyrics in the most part being based on factual history and the music appropriate to both mood and intent.
I, as I am sure many others recognised the original BBC reporting sampled into many of the tracks. The album works both as a historical narrative and as a tribute (as it was intended) to the heroism and sacrifice of the men and women that dared to stand defiant in the face of shameless indian tyranny, they are now as they were then a shining example to the Sikh nation.
As to whether or not the album or its artists are 'khalistani'(not my terminology),any one listening to the album will be left in no doubt whatsoever that it is a positive affirmation of the absolute need for Sikh sovereignty. Further the statement "Khalistan! The reality with Guru Ji's blessing" inside the album cover itself, is I would say a pretty unequivocal declaration. This is entirely the correct message for these particular artists as it should be for any Sikh.
Well done Tigerstyle,Immortal productions and co. It is heartening to see we still have artists with the courage of their convictions.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
P.S. Please remember to buy this album rather than downloading it since all profitable proceeds from sales are to be given as seva.
-
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
Sikhism holds political sovereignty in high esteem. A prominent Sikhhistorian, Rattan Singh Bhangu, gives the essential characteristics of the
Sikhs: "The Khalsa is never a satellite to another power. They are either
fully sovereign or in a state of war and rebellion. A subservient
coexistence they never accept. To be fully sovereign and autonomous is
their first and last demand."
[15] These words have a striking similarity to the message given by Guru
Hargobind, five days before he passed away, to his fourteen year old
successor, Guru Hari Rai: ". . . do not hesitate to fight relentlessly for
your religious and political freedom."
[16] Guru Gobind Singh delivers a similar message: "The political power and
the State rest on armaments, and without political sovereignty, the good way
of life cannot securely prevail in society
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
-
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
Khalsasoulja,
I would really appreciate the picture you mentioned, totally disagree with you by the way, but that's not the point of this post. If you would rather email it to me, let me know.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
-
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
Excerpt from SIKHS OF THE PUNJAB written by Joyce JM Pettigrew Proffesor of Anthropology.
"The initial crime was celebrated and indeed had been planned a full year beforehand. The Darbar Sahib complex, a place of great beauty, the spiritual and political centre of the Sikh way of life and of the Sikhs as a people, their historic home through year's of invasion from the west, had its sanctity shattered. The army went into Darbar Sahib not to eliminate a political figure or a political movement but to suppress the culture of a people, to attack their heart, to strike a blow at their spirit and self confidence. The second crime, the penetration into the heart of many rural homes by non family members in serch of the young and fervent, gave rise to the early forms of resistance in the rural areas. The third crime, the systematic and planned attck on the Sikh settlements in the trans-Jumna area of Delhi in which neighbourhoods and their Sikh inhabitants were set alight and burnt alive, was a massacre in the true sense of the term"
hey guys im just looking at the reality dont take it personal that im for oragainst anything. i just like us to question ourselves at times and self
introspect, for the better.
back to few pointers, pakistan (land of the pure = pak), majority of the
muslims in pak panjab, nfwp, sind wanted this pakistan to be made and worked
together to achieve it, a point where we could take a lesson in mobilisation
and unity . however they also did bad in driving the minorities out by force
which resulted in 400 000 sikhs being slaughtered by pakistanis and the rest
moving to india.
Of course working together to achieve a common goal is its own reward but the creation of Pakistan can be attributed to many unique factors, the unity or lack of it amongst muslims as well as the statesmanship of Jinnah are not the primary factors. Certainly the state of the religion of Islam was far less an issue than the concept of a homeland for the Muslims of the sub-continent. It must also be remembered that there was slaughter on all side's as is the nature of 'riot' as opposed to a (Delhi) pogrom, further in many senses the slaughter was avoidable had Gandhi, Jinnah, Nehru and Mountbatten possessed the political will necessary.
There are some telling words in a meeting between Gandhi and the Viceroy on August 27 1946 during the meeting Gandhi in the words of Wavell, "thumped the table and said If India wants a bloodbath, she shall have it" and that "If a bloodbath was necessary, it would come about in spite of non-violence"(Seervai,n 10, p.7eight) Strangely contradictory but a 'real' examination of MKGandhi reveals a man riddled by hypocrisy and contradiction whose desire outweighed compassion.
Kashmir's balance of population was 35% native kashmiri hindu, and 65% muslimkashmiri which was changed during the indo pak wars and the mujahadeen
element driving non muslim minorities out by force humilation etc in order
to secure a higher muslim percentage in the future allowing a single call
for a muslim state. Now today the state is majority 90 odd percent muslim
and demands the seperation of kashmir driven by the excesses committed by
the indian gov to this day, there is popular muslim kashmiri outcry. Sikhi
doesnt teach sikhs to drive people out by force in order to achieve or
conquer land.
Pankaj Mishra is the author of The Romantics (Picador).
Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2003
"MISHRA"In both 1948 and 1965, Pakistani adventurers failed to incite Kashmiri Muslims into an anti-India rebellion. It was in the late 1980s and early 90s that the underreported brutalities of Indian rule and the lack of international sympathy made many Kashmiri Muslims look to Pakistan for succour.
The balance of influence had decisively tilted in Pakistan's favour by the late 1980s, with people's sympathy no longer with the Indian union as it had been in 1947-48 and 1965.
Mrs Gandhi's attempts to install puppet governments in state capitals, manipulating the democratic process in the state legislatures, deeply angered the Kashmiris.
Two weeks ago, a report in the Indian Express described how three so-called "militant infiltrators" who had been killed at the Kashmir border by Indian soldiers were local civilians. Such accounts show that while it is important for General Musharraf to end all Pakistani sponsorship of violence in India, the Hindu nationalist government of India has to do a lot more to earn the trust of the majority of Muslims who live in the valley of Kashmir.
In any case, the Indian government has to show that it is interested in doing more about peace in Kashmir than just isolating or destabilising Pakistan. Apart from scaling back its military build-up on the border and within the valley, it has to open a dialogue not just with Pakistan but also with the alienated majority of Kashmiri Muslims. Otherwise, the elections planned in Kashmir in October will seem staged for the benefit of western audiences.
However, winning over Kashmiri Muslims doesn't seem a high priority for the Hindu nationalists who have long expressed a frank ideological animosity towards Muslims and Islam in general - something underlined in the Human Rights Watch report on the government-assisted massacre in March this year of over 1,000 Muslims in the western Indian state of Gujarat.
The question raised most often during the weeks of hectic western diplomacy, when a catastrophic war in south Asia seemed imminent, was whether India can trust Pakistan, or vice versa. Perhaps, not. But the bigger question is how can Kashmiri Muslims learn to trust a government which often seems to hold on to their land only through brute military force - a question that, war or no war, the Hindu nationalists will have to answer persuasively.
Once more the tyranny of the indian state coupled with the meglomania of indian leaders has led a otherwise content people to demand their right to leave india, for these people the relative 'health' of Islam is held as no benchmark for their political aspirations. Control is only being achieved by making it the most heavily militarised place on earth. As far as the Sikhs in Kashmir are concerned, no doubt some will remember Chittisingpora just another example of how expendable the Sikhs are to the indian state, their lives, homes and dreams were once sacrificed in the creation of Pakistan, if that seems like ancient history to some. We need only look at Chittisingpora as a further indication that Nehru's philosophy "For the family sacrifice the individual, for the community sacrifice the family and for the country sacrifice the community" is still applied with vigour by the indians.
CHITTISINGHPORA, NOVEMBER 1: There is an absolute calm here. Seven months
after that dark night when masked gunmen shot dead 35 men, this Sikh village
is still to come out of the shock.
`We all want the answer to a single question. Who were those masked
gunmen?Why did they kill our men?,'' says Shashinder Kaur, who lost all
fivemale members of her family including her husband. ``The inquiry is very
important. In fact, it is late. Let the truth come out. We want this mystery
to be solved once for all.''
Sitting in the compound of the newly constructed Government Primary
School,Shashinder Kaur and another widow Narinder Kaur talk of the
realsuffering that sank in later -- there were no more relatives and friends
toconsole them.
``My eight-year-old daughter has been ill since the massacre. She always
asks me about the massacre,'' says Narinder Kaur, whose husband, Gurbakhash
Singh and three other male family members were massacred. ``My children want
to know everything. In fact, they were more close to their father than me
and they miss him everyday.''
Both the widows have been given a job in the Government school so that they
can feed their families.
Nanak Singh Bedi was the only survivor and eyewitness of the Chittisinghpora
massacre. He had been seriously injured. ``I can only tell you those masked
killers were human beings. I cannot say whether they were Armymen or
militants or who,'' he said.
He too strongly favours an independent inquiry. ``It was a big conspiracy
and everything had been planned. It needs a thorough investigation to expose
it.'' He said the militants had not done any harm to them during the past 10
years.
Bedi, however, was sceptical about the Government going ahead with
theinquiry. ``Our own community came to our rescue, otherwise the Government
did nothing beyond the Rs 1 lakh ex-gratia relief. They had promised a phone
line, medical facility and improvement of the road but nothing happened,''
he said. ``If there had been a phone earlier, many of our injured would have
survived. We could have called for help immediately
in panjab the sikh population is around 60 percent and 40 % hindu. punjabihindus obviously wudnt opt for a khalistan . if the majoirity of sikhs
pressed ahead for a khalistan i believe there wud be at least some inch of
development of ground but there doesnt even seem to be that atthe moment. So
if they dont want it its as simple as that. how many sikhs do you know in
punjab who want khalistan??? If sikhs wanted something they have shown as in
history came together to achieve it. All u hear is a few tall cries in the
west " lets make khalistan", go to india its another story, they dont wanna
know as mentioned b4. If they did they wudnt be sitting there they would
fight to the end as shown in previous times. Now if 40% say no and the
majority of 60% dont fancy a change what do u do?? what can you do? nothing.
unless the masses want a khalistan its not going to appear out of thin air.
I have heard mention before in this thread of Panjabi autonomy within a indian union, remember the Anandpur Sahib resoulution? This could be described as a far lesser demand in the same vein, but when the masses agitated in support of that the means adopted by the indian govt. to put them down were so brutal, so inhuman, so barbaric it was only after years of this perpetual terror that the people now do not wish to talk about it, let alone openely support it . We are trying to determine what the people of Panjab hold within their hearts, if possible talk to your relatives the pain on their face's will speak volumes. There is still deep mistrust of anyone that is a stranger who would talk about such issues, in a state where human rights workers still disappear and where a prominent politician (S.S.Mann) is being tried for the words he allegedly spoke 15 years ago, the fear of a loose tongue is understandable.
The current situation of Panjabi hindus aligning themselves with the 'centre' rather than Panjab is a fairly recent development that was engineered rather than a natural proggression, it can trace its roots back to the communalising of politics by the centre in the state after 'independence'. If I can see myself as a British Sikh then what's wrong with a Khalistani Hindu? After all we were expected to be hindustani Sikhs were we not?
As I have mentioned earlier I am a regular visitor to the state and I must admit that meeting a person who did not lose a family member or know someone that did or who was not affected in some way (illegal arrest, illegal detention, police beating's etc.) is the exception rather than the 'norm.' The sheer volume of young men annihilated by the state machinery was such that in effect a whole generation was lost. Indeed in some areas it was often said that entire villages would not see marriages because of the total absence of young Sikh men.
Gross injustice on this scale is never forgotten, it may be quelled by brutality for a generation or even more but the history of similar movements has always shown that the state will eventually reap what it has sown. The truth of Guru Nanak Dev Ji 'Apei beej ape hei khae' is not lost on the indian state which is why every effort is now being made to tear the 'seedlings from their roots.'
.in short wehave a lot to do as a community and progress to make. to me itscommon sense lets live as sikhs shud and function the way guru ji taught and
not blindly ignore our problems but to strengthen our community in order for
greater things ahead
Yes we do have a lot that we need to do including the creation of a Sikh state, you see the two goals, revitalising Sikhi and achieving a Sikh homeland are not mutually exclusive on the contrary, if you recall the mid 80's just after 'bluestar' Sikhi was in ascendancy all over the world.
Youth that had previously not given a damn were instilled with passion and wanted to declare themselves to the world as Sikhs. It has historically always been a ' just cause' that has re-awakened the spirit of dormant Sikhs. The creation of a Sikh nation state and the resurgence of Sikhi go hand in hand.
Now to drugs, we all have problems on thsi world, some of us come fromdysfunctional families, abuse history, racism, low confidence, yet some of
us abstain from drugs some of us want to take them. Drugs are just as
readily available here as they are in india. I do believe the govs can play
a bigger role in stopping this horrible disease, but they let it carry on,
not just in panjab but around the world including india and pakistan. Bottom
line we take the choice to use or abstain from drugs.
There is a very big difference between the social ill's of this country and the sufferings of the people of the Panjab in recent times, with all due respect you can not equate a dysfunctional family or being called a 'paki' with being incarcerated by the police having your fingernails removed and chilli's pushed into your anus. I am not being intentionally emotive, as I am sure you already know this is in fact quite low on the severity scale of experience of Panjabi youth. Another point which must be corrected is the availability of drugs. The availability, type and price of drugs in Panjab at this time outstrips the situation in the UK (to use your example) by such a degree to make any comparison irrelevant. What you appear to be referring to in this country is 'illicit' drugs, to try and illustrate my point, imagine being able to walk into any chemist anywhere in London and buy over the counter any drug you want for a tenth of the price of a beer without prescription legally.
This is the situation in Panjab, it bears no relation whatsoever to the fact that you can buy 'weed', 'charlie' etc. etc. fairly easily anywhere in the UK. The recreational drugs that you are referring to are hugely different to the prescription opiates, barbiturates, amphetamines that are being touted in the Panjab to talk about 'reefers' is a long way from appreciating the situation. The type of drugs your talking about (Reefer/cannabis) have been available in the Panjab for centuries it's a prolific weed that grows all over the state and some people choose to use it, most don't but don't confuse these with the drugs that are causing misery in the Panjab.
If sikhs take to drugs drink or anything they shudnt, it is them to blamefor taking that whilst knowing full well the consequences spiritually. if
they are not aware whos fault is that?? im sure the moghuls tried to press
sikhs to do all kinds of things, how comes the sikhs of the past didnt give
in?? we obviously have some introspecting to do. Is there the indian gov
holding a reefer to your throat??? threatening you to take something against
ur own will with 20 million sikhs? or is the sikh willingly taking drugs??
compare that to the past when moghuls used force.
The point regarding the Moguls is not that they used force and the indians don't, a quarter of a million Sikhs murdered is a adequate display of force but where they surpass the Moguls is in their use of covert, Machiavellian tactic's, supplying licences to deal drugs so that the Panjab is awash with addicts is just one example. You talk of self control, addiction is beyond self control. If the same methods of overt terror were combined with these covert measures by a government in any comparative country, state, in the world you would see the same results.
see to me its like a kid riding a bike , he or she is taught to ride it byan elder , then he or she starts peddling on their own. that is the fate of
the sikhs today whereas these things may have deliberatly pushed in but
today the sikhs are doing them by theirselves its them who has to stop. In
my eyes if i did something that is against sikhi no matter how much pressure
i am under i am to blame for taking the concious decision and doing that
whatever.
Again with the greatest respect and obviously not knowing your life experiences you are not in a position to say what you would or wouldn't do under circumstances that you have never experienced. This applies to anyone, the figures for addiction speak for themselves in some area's 60%. This cannot be attributed in its entirety to a weak state of mind, numerous studies into drug addiction clearly show that the environment is the number one constituent factor in determining drug use. The environment of the Panjab is 'being' changed to the detriment of its people we need to change the environment to benefit the people.
no one is goign tohelp us, its us who have to stand up and makecorrections. You can sit here all day saying they are doing this that to us
, end of day whats the result? nothing
It is vitally important that the world acknowledges the plight of the Sikhs and the genocide that they have been subjected to by the supposed democracy of india, by raising awareness we will be fulfilling our commitment to all those who have suffered and those who gave their lives for us. With the world in the dark 'Panjab's' will continue, look at Gujrat, only by raising awareness will india be exposed and think twice before dealing with its minorities with impunity. No offence but frankly it is the good fortune of the Jewish people that your sort of thinking wasn't prominent following the holocaust.
i hear silly arguments blaming hindus for sikhs following caste. If i sithere and say "putt jatta de balondey bakrey" or " ramgharia de whatever" how
does hinduism fit into this? its us as sikhs who have chosen to believe it
no one is forcing us to follow this system here and now. hindus aint exactly
holding a blade to your throat forcigint u to believe caste. How can we
progress if we are going to sit here all day blaming others for the problems
we have?? . We can only become sikhs and
strengthen our community from the bad patch it is in now by working for its
upliftment and take example from groups like fateh who do seva.
i hope i havent offended anyone.
I am sorry but the relevance to the thread of this final point, as put, about caste has me slightly confused but I think it again fall's into the category of our communities shortcomings, again.
Caste means different things to different people and again is considered differently by different faiths. Indeed a Pakistani muslim Jatt may prefer to marry his daughter to the son of a Jatt beacuse that is what he considers himself to be. Although his religion is principally opposed to such distinctions. A Sikh may feel the same way even though his religion is equally opposed. Of the three religions in question it is indeed only hinduism that has a religious doctrine of caste but even this is being moved away from by some hindus who consider that such doctrine is incompatible with their 'modern' lives.
I would say that the Sikh relation to caste is dependent on how we see ourselves, is it as Jatt or Sikh or Malwai etc. I think that a common link in the form of a Sikhdom would be beneficial in all aspects of Sikhi, but do I think that we will stop referring to ourselves as particular groups? Probably not but it must be understood that this sort of distinction which is endemic within Panjabi culture is a far cry from the hindu traditions of untouchability or the writings of Manu.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
P.S. All Veer, thank you so much for your kind words regarding previous post, really is nice to have the blessing of your peer's/veer's.
N.B.
Panjab today :
Elizabeth Colson (1992:279)
"If violence is used to destroy the bases of community life and undermine trust in social relationship with young people as the objects of violence
and as instruments of atrocities ..then, they will find it difficult to re-enter society even if peace is eventually re-established.
Violence let loose in this fashion can destroy the future. It can also force
its victims to settle for any form of government that gives them freedom
from attack"
-
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
till Sikhs become Sikhs where is this khalsa stan? till Sikhs throw awaythese caste labels, caste gurdwara segregation caste wars caste villages,
then how can this khalsastan come when we dont even mix between ourselves
with the social cohesion propounded by guru ji. shraab vice what not on the
ground level where is khalistan coming from?? thin air?
Were people asking these question's when india was created? Was there a debate into the state of the adherence to Islam amongst Muslims when Pakistan became a reality?
The answer in both these cases is a resounding no.
Are the Kashmiris agonising over the level of apostasy amongst its youth? Are they concerned about the increasing level's of drug addiction and alcoholism?
The answer to both of these questions is of course, yes. BUT. Do they feel that these are reasons not to continue their demand's for independence? NO.
You see all of the objections made in this thread by poster's seem to fall into a few broad categories the primary objection seems to be the idea that in order to demand a Sikh state we must all first become 'good Sikhs' a stipulation that neither india or Pakistan or Bangladesh or any other nation on earth has ever applied to itself at the time of their conception
First and foremost the majority of Panjab's social 'ill's' today are not simply a 'sign of the times' as many would like us to believe, for the information of the reader I visit the Panjab every year and have done since I was around ten years old, at the insistence of my father, the point being that I have seen the gradual change of life and attitudes as well as the impact of the 'troubles' and what that has meant to the 'average Panjabi'.
Posters in this thread have talked about the apostasy amongst young Sikhs this is widely regarded as a result of the high levels of drug addiction and alcohol dependence amongst Panjabi youth, I doubt many would disagree but are you aware that it has been indian government policy that has helped orchestrate this terrible situation?
According to the OUTLOOK magazine two recent studies of Punjab's drug problem have produced horrific figures. OUTLOOK magazine reports that a preliminary study conducted by the Punjab State Health Department in March shows the extent of the problem:- "More than 40 per cent of the youth between the ages of 15 to 25 are addicts. In Doaba and Majha regions 65 per cent of homes have, at least, one addict. About 48 per cent of farmers and labourers are drug addicts. Multiple drug abuse is common." Outlook quotes another survey by the Institute for Development and Communication (IDC), a Chandigarh-based research organisation, which has more worrisome figures. Giving a break-up of the drug abuse pattern in the three major geographical areas of Punjab, its study says that percentage of households affected by drug abuse is 61 per cent in Majha, 64 per cent in Malwa and 68 per cent in the Doaba."
'Dogra' (Journalist who wrote the article) says in his OUTLOOK article that, "Drug abuse is rampant in urban slum clusters like Maqboolpura, on the outskirts of Amritsar. There are several families there which have lost their men to narcotics. Says Ajit Singh, a school teacher and activist who has been campaigning against drug abuse." Dogra reports that the Taran Taran district is now infamous for its drug addicts.( Is it coincidence that this particular area was once famous for the numbers of young fighters that it prouduced for the Panjabi resistance?) In its sub-division of 400-odd villages, scores of young men turn up every fortnight to the six de-addiction centres set up by a local NGO, the Guru Arjun Dev Charitable Trust. The manager of the trust, Dr J.P. Singh, admits this effort is too small to cope with the burgeoning problem as he has to turn away many people due to lack of space as virtually every second young male from his village takes drugs in one form or the other."
As a comparative similair high levels of drug and alcohol availability and addiction can be seen amongst the Christian tribes of North Eastern India who, like the Sikhs, want to establish a sovereign buffer state between Myanmar, India, Bangladesh and China. It is not coincidental that thousands of 'chemists', 'Daaktars' and registered medical practitioners (RMPS) have been issued goverment licences and proliferated into almost every village of the Punjab. Many RMPS peddle opium-based drugs (dexavion capsules, morphine or natural opium) without prescriptions. According to the OUTLOOK, "young people in rural Punjab are now getting caught in a deadly drug trap.
"Its once-robust youngmen known for their boundless physical energy and strength have become shadows of their former selves."
So much suffering is it any wonder that the people of the Panjab have lost hope? The last time I was there about nine months ago five young men/boys from two villages in close proximity to mine took there own lives within a six week period , two had died before my arrival the other three whilst I was there not one of them was over twenty five, all farmers boy's, they drank industrial pesticide, one of the boys had left a note where he simply apologised to his family. As I was to find out this is a fairly recent phenomenon but it is quite widespread and increasingly regular.
IMAGINE
Imagine a Sikh nation representing the Sikhs at the United Nations does this not fill you with awe? Imagine how more able we would have been to protect our brothers and sisters following 09/11 from attack then the empty lip service of Vajpayee and his cronies. Imagine the profile of Sikhi and how it would be raised onto the international platform, imagine writing our own 'true' history rather than have it subverted by the history revisionists of Hindutva, imagine the joy of being a Sikh in a nation that you could call your own, imagine the pride in knowing that minorities hindu,Muslim,Christian etc. are safe in your country.
The only people that will tell you that this is not achievable are those that do not wish you to achieve it. A Sikh state would create a whole new generation of vibrant Sikhs, those whom had strayed from the path would again be filled with self confidence and hope. Anyone that knows about addiction will tell you that lack of self confidence and hope are addictions bed fellows.
The point that seems to be missed here by some posters, to repeat myself, is that it is not the attitude or the behaviour of the Sikhs within india that will determine their future within that country it is the attitude and behaviour of the majority. 1984 was a major wake up call to the Sikhs it was far from the first and it has been followed by nineteen years of further genocide. It is frankly beyond comprehension that any Sikh's should consider themselves to be equal citizens within india.
I would urge all of those that consider 1984 as history to remember that the carnage and injustice carries on unabated, the likes of Sajjan Kumar have been acquitted and declared innocent only this very year. These are historic times for the Sikhs and they are taking place here and now not in some far off place or time.
We talk of the tyranny of the Moguls and the injustice of that period, we have been and continue to be in a far worse position within india at this time, for example, the Mogul regime did not feign justice to 'rub salt into the wounds' of the victims, the Mogul regime did not deny its crimes and claim innocence, the Mogul regime did not raise organisations in the garb of Sikhs to try and subvert our religion, the Mogul regime did not covertly corrupt our youth with drugs, The Mogul regime did not sponsor books that malign our religion, the Mogul regime did not cover up their crimes to belie their terror to history.
In the history of the Sikhs up until this point no administration, government or state has committed the level and range of atrocities against the Sikh people, culture, history and religion as has been committed by the modern indian state and yet we find amongst us those who wish to remain within this 'union' are we masochists?
Or are we unable to learn from our mistakes?
Can I ask those that are opposed like 'Truth' what would it take for you decide that the future of the Sikhs as a people no longer rests within the framework of the modern indian state?
Because I for one cannot envisage anything worse than that which has already taken place, If what had happened in Delhi had happened in London how many of us would consider ourselves British? If after nineteen years we saw the politicians of the day who had openly taken part in the carnage walk free from the old bailey and continue as MP's would we want to live in this country?
Believe it or not there were indians who objected to the idea of indian independence from the British so this sort of stance is nothing new, in many ways they had what would be considered to be a just argument in the same vein as a earlier post as to the economic viability of such a change. The fact of the matter was that the British had created india's infrastructure as well as instituting a vastly superior system of government, education and the rule of law, india cannot claim to have done anything like this for the Panjab.
But the fact remained that the vast majority of people who lived within British india wanted the British out because they wanted the right to self determination, it must also be remembered that ultimately any empire is created not for the betterment of the indigenous population but for the benefit of the empire builder, if as a result the country is improved then that really is a secondary consideration.
Sukhbir, If you think that it makes one a better Sikh if he supports ourdirty politicians then let me make it more crystal clear that I don't
support them. I have a great respect for the Shaeeds but not for these
western "slogan" throwing leaders.
To me (if any one cares about it in this debate) Khalistan is purely
symbolic. Its a place where a Sikh can go when he or she wants to be in
touch with God. "Raj karega Khalsa" is not a political statement, its a
spiritual statement. Although i can see why sikhs want a separate country,
it'd only end up a political disaster (another israel-palestine). do we
really want that? i certainly don't. khalistan is in my heart, where god
lives. not on this physical earth.
I have never equated supporting the concept of a soverign Sikh nation with being a 'better Sikh' If you believe I have written such a statement then I would like you to show me.
Truth how much do you know about the Israeli Palestinian situation? No offence but I suggest not a great deal the two situations are hugely different to make any 'real' comparison other than a cosmetic one would be pointless. One point I would make though is if you have ever met a Palestinian you would not be able to deny the determination, passion, vigour and love that person has to free his home, truly in the spirit of 'placing one's head on one's palm'.
As for ending up as a political disaster, most commentators agree that the most likely arena for the world's first nuclear war at this time is the indo/pak situation, how's that for a political disaster?
Another question who would suffer the most,(Sikhs) yes, no change their then, if we were already a sovereign nation, then today we would have a say in a situation that could wipe the Sikhs as a people off the face of the earth but since we are part and parcel of india we have no say whatsoever.
'Truth' a Sikh state maybe purely symbolic to you but that doesn't hold a great deal of water if your hanging upside down in a police station whilst your 'fellow countrymen' try and push cigarettes into your mouth because they know its against your faith.
Further 'Raj Karega Khalsa' is an entirely political as well as spiritual statement, I noticed N30 explaining Guru ji's word's and wondered how much clarification is needed for such a clear statement of the truth.
Who is demanding it? Guru Sahib. ""Raj bina na dharam challay hay!Dharam bina sabh dlaay mallay hay!" Words attributed to Dasm Patshah in Guru
Partap Suraj Granth.
I think veer ji you are confusing guroo's sahiban words. Correct me if i m
wrong guroo ji mentioning Khalsa Raj (96 crore khalsa raj) all over the
world which was a prophecy in sau sakhi rather an peace of land (Khalistan).
In my opnion khalsa doesnt restrict to an peace of land.
The key words here are 'in your opinion' N30 and in my opinion you are entirely wrong, a basic understanding of political systems will show that what Guruji is referring to is the internationally accepted system by which all government's have and continue to run their affairs.
--"SHATAR KE ADHIN
HEH RAJ, RAJ BINA NEH DHARAM CHELE, DHARAM BINA SAB DALE MARAN HE".
Without the might of weapons there can be no rule, without rule you cannot practice your faith(be that a religion or in the case of the US democracy, or any ideology), without faith nothing can go well. (of course one mans faith is another's ideology but the principal remains)
Without a temporal Raj there cannot be a spiritual Raj the concept of 'Miri and Piri' is well established. Often detractors talk of a 'piece of land' as if this is a base and material demand which has no place in matters of faith. I would like to remind those who align themselves to this notion that we are human beings we cannot exist without food and water, both material objects, do you consider those to be base and below spiritual consideration?
Khalsa raj is rajwithout boundaries which will come true as it was said by guroo's sahiban.
I hope people concentrate more on bring youths into sikhism than singing
"Khalistan Zindabad" in western countries.
What we need is more firm faith in our guroo's sahiban and less trust in all
these Khalistani Propaganda. You think i m lying. Check out burning punjab
website. The people who were khalistani in 80's are secret GOI spies now.
Trusting them and following them is like hitting the nail on your foot.
Further talk of dirty politicians and goverment spies, which goverment? The government of india, so were back to the same place then, namely india. I don't see how the concept of a Sikh state should become invalid because the indian government has recruited 'patsy's to subvert, malign and discredit the 'movement' was this not what they wanted to achieve?
Its a source of astonishment to me when I hear Sikhs say "well I don't support the creation of a Sikh state because they are just a bunch of hypocrites, dirty politicians and government agents." I mean yes of course, but to whom do they owe their conception? Why does the government want them there? So you will say exactly what you have just said. "I don't support the concept of a Sikh state".
Indian government, mission accomplished.
You do not have to follow any politicians or particular organisations to believe in the 'right' of a Sikh state the fact that you believe its creation is right and just is enough to worry the powers that be, remember the AK is not the only way (see below).
Kashmir Singh with Spelman: making common causeUK SIKHS
Blast From The Past
Potential votes get Khalistanis support from all British parties
SANJAY SURI
Just when everyone thought the Khalistan matter was dead and gone, it is
back, cleverly disguised as the Sikh Agenda produced by a group calling
itself the Sikh Secretariat. This time, not only are British leaders
listening, they're in a hurry to deliver what the Khalistanis want.
The disguise is simple but effective. The Secretariat is telling British
leaders it wants Sikhs to be given the option to enter their ethnic origin
in official data as Sikhs, not as Indians. By Home Office estimates, there
are 3.5 to 5 lakh Sikhs in Britain, now recognised as a part of the 1.2
million Indians.
The Sikh Secretariat wants official data to record their ethnicity
separately as 'Sikh', not as 'Indian'.
One change in the census form could dent that Indian population figure
significantly. And kick up a political storm in two countries.
The agenda for a separate identity in Britain overlaps with a separatist
agenda for India. The seemingly innocuous demand
British leaders are falling for is that the government find out how many
Sikhs there are, that it can't do so unless they are listed separately. But
items six and seven in the eight-point agenda make the real aim clear: lobby
for and promote the reasons to establish an independent Sikh
state—Khalistan.
These declarations would have been insignificant without the support of
senior Conservative Party leaders. Their reason is obvious. The Sikh
Secretariat has declared that they will vote for parties that deliver what
they want. The Tories stand invited to look at votes from what the
Secretariat advertises as a population of 7 lakh Sikhs.
At an annual convention of the Secretariat at the Guru Nanak Sikh Gurudwara
in Wolverhampton on September 22, shadow Tory minister for international
development and women's issues Caroline Spelman said it was "extraordinary
(British for outrageous) that the government has not cared to find out how
many of you there are". The Labour government should monitor Sikhs
separately and "if they fail, it will be a task for a Conservative
administration to deliver on".
Labour can see the votes as well. Local Labour MP Rob Marris turned up at
the Wolverhampton do to say there would be no need to wait for the 2011
census. There will be plenty of opportunities before then to list Sikhs
separately, he said.
He then turned to the Khalistan demand: "Those in the Indian subcontinent
who peacefully and democratically push for self-determination for that part
of the Indian subcontinent, their opinion for self-determination, their
right to ask for an independent Khalistan shouldn't be suppressed." Marris
said it would not be right for parties in Britain to decide whether there
should be self-determination in what he called that part of the Indian
subcontinent. "But it would be right for people to democratically and
peacefully express their opinions."
The comment elicited loud cries of "Khalistan zindabad". The gurudwara had
become something of a Khalistan centre for the day. The walls of the langar
hall were plastered with posters of Bhindranwale carrying a sten gun. There
were posters of police atrocities, K.P.S. Gill torturing Sikhs, torture
victims. Speaker after speaker praised "Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji
Bhindranwale". The Secretariat had said 10,000 would attend the rally. Only
a few hundred were around, but that was enough for the Khalistan leaders to
make their point to the Tory and Labour leaders.
The Sikh Agenda, launched at this gurudwara on September 16 last year, has
come a long way with strong Tory support. Spelman's speech followed strong
support from shadow home secretary Oliver Letwin and shadow minister Dominic
Grieve at a lobby day called by the Sikh Secretariat at Parliament on July
3. A group of Secretariat leaders then called on PM Tony Blair to present
their demands. Later, the Liberal Democrats, the third force in UK politics,
also expressed their support to the separate-listing demand.
"Just think what message this will give to them in Punjab," one of the many
Khalistani speakers said: the message that if this goes ahead, the British
don't think Sikhs are Indians. Behind the usual hot-headed speeches by the
usual Khalistanis, this move is being directed by some brilliant leaders
such as Kashmir Singh of the British Sikh Federation and Indarjit Singh, a
retired civil servant. These gently-spoken men in lounge suits are making
more headway than all those men with the sten guns.
They are living peacefully in India and they don't care about what wewestern Sikhs want because all they call us "coward" sitting in western
countries and throwing slogan against India and making their life worst.
After my visit of India last year I came to this conclusion that if Sikhs
tie up with other miniorities of India then they will become majority and
there won't be any problem. Just take the example of Delhi Sikhs, they are
able to make Punjabi the second language when on the other hand in sikhs
majority state Punjab been trying for it for long time and main reason for
their failure is that they have no unity within Sikhs and as well as others
living in Punjab.
As far as living peacefully is concerned, the Sikhs could have lived peacefully under the Moguls or the British had they been willing to give up their stance against tyranny and injustice, but even if we are willing to give up our Gurus ideals, would that prevent a situation I put to you in my previous post?
"A assassin not a Sikh
but dressed in the bana of a Sikh assassinates Mr Vajpayee tomorrow what do
you think will be the result?
Im sure you know but forsaking pointing out the obvious I will tell you,
thousands more Sikhs murdered, burned, more Sikh children orphaned or worse,
widescale rape of Sikh women and girls the burning and looting of their
homes, shops and gurudwara. All this while the apparatus of the state stands
by or in many cases joins in the 'fun'.
Like it or not this is the reality for Sikhs in that country, I for one do
not want my community to be left to that sort of unpredictable vulnerability
and anyone that does is clearly not in their right mind. You see for me the
Sikh state is not a question of desire but one of necessity we must protect
ourselves for if we cannot how can we protect anyone?"
What should we do? hope that it doesn't happen?
Ultimately there may be a hundred reasons why we as a people may not want to have a sovereign state but the one reason that overrides all of them is that factor which even within nature overrides all other considerations, its called survival.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
N.B.
Felt that a passage from a book titled 'The Sikhs in History' would be appropriate.
"The Sikhs came out of the holocaust very badly mauled.
Psychologically the most terrible blow was to their self-image, of their being lions - protectors of the weak and fighters against injustice and tyranny. The Hindus got the oppourtunity to rub salt into their wounds. Averring to the atrocities perpetrated by them they tauntingly cried " YAAD KAREGA KHALSA", khalsa shall remember, in parody to
"RAJ KAREGA KHALSA", khalsa shall rule.
Ram Raiyas and Jathedar Santa Singh of Budda Dal
in Formal Debates & Discussions
Posted
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
Veer N30,
Having returned to this forum after some time (owing to work commitments).
I noticed you have closed the thread. It struck me that this is not an
uncommon occurrence.
I understand the unacceptable nature of postings which are of a personal and
abusive nature, these contribute nothing to the discussion and inevitably
lead the debate into a exchange of repetitive 'tit for tat'. This leads you
to close the thread, understandably.
However I believe that it is only some individuals who consistently find it
easier to reply with a personal or insulting remark. Look through the
posting in question as a example and you will see a common correlation
between certain posters and their avoidance of issues of relevance by
introducing insults or irrelevant remarks designed to critique the poster
rather than the argument. This leads to reaction,counter-reaction etc.etc.
I did wish to respond to one of the two replies to my previous posting, the
other post was pathetically undeserving of a response from anyone.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh
Receiving 'Tankhaah' for his action's was the response of his (to use your
description) 'accusers', placing the onus for reaction clearly on him, if he
has refused to defend his actions despite 'conviction' then this is by any
sane measure a acceptance of guilt, think of it in this manner if he were
charged and convicted by a court of law the right of appeal would rest with
the defendant and not the prosecution.
The question of 'facing his accusers' is incorrectly assumed by you to be my
position. When the 'Akal Takht' issued a hukamnamah barring the Sikhs
from participation in the GOI 'kar seva' on July 11th 1984, It was
unequivocal in content,
barring Sikhs from taking part in what amounted to a 'sarkari seva'
absolutely contrary
to the 'labour of love' that is 'kar seva', according to Sikh tradition.
Despite this on July 17th 1984 Santa Singh arrived with three buses, packed
with some 'nihangs'and congress workers under army protection and parked
them in front of the hospital gate,
after some time these buses were escorted by the army to Burj
Akali Phula Singh following 'ardasa' Santa initiated the 'sarkari seva'.
He was issued a 'show-cause' notice that evening requesting him to present a
written explanation of his actions by 4pm on the 18th July. He did not
attend, nor did he send any written explanation either of his actions
or why he was unable to submit any explanation. On the 19th July he was
issued a further notice
to present himself before the Akal Takhat Sahib on July 21st at 8am, he did
not attend.
The ecclesiastical court of Sri Akal Takhat Sahib decided to allow a further
day for Santa
to respond, finally the hukamnamah excommunicating Santa Singh from the Sikh
panth was issued
on the 22nd July 1984, it was published in the press on July 23rd 1984.
So you see there was both the will and offered opportunity on the part of
the 'accusers' to 'face him'
it was in fact he that balked from such a confrontation, the conviction of a
defendant that refuses
to attend a hearing is consistent under any system of law you may care to
mention. A conviction
in absence does almost uniformly allow leave to appeal, but this is entirely
the responsibility
of the defendant, given that this process was carried out under the aegis of
what is best described as
a ecclesiastical court the responsibility for defence or appeal lies firmly
with the defendant again this
is consistent with any recognised system of law. This refusal to defend his
actions, could be cited as acknowledgement that their indefensible?
You may wish to read the sentence you have written above back to yourself.
'..it is the prerogative of the accusers to do so..'. Well if it's their
prerogative and you contend that he has not been questioned, then the
'accusers' are merely exercising the prerogative to which you claim they
have a right.
It is my contention however that he was 'brought to justice' for his
connivance with the GOI in their illegitimate 'kar seva', hence the
'Tankhaah',
ultimately it is not the 17 years in 'exile' that will be his punishment.
The 'real' punishment for his actions will be his historical legacy, a
question I have posed many times and to which I am yet to receive an answer
to is,
looked at in a historical comparative his actions would have been equal to a
Sikh, regardless of grandeur of title and position(if anything all the
worse for it) accepting money and assistance from Ahmed Shah Abdali for
reconstruction after his destruction of Harminder Sahib whilst allowing his
tobacco smoking, shoe wearing and in the case of the Indian army alcohol
drinking soldiers to mill around the complex whilst enforcing a curfew with
orders to shoot on sight, in the surrounding city.
**Hypothetically speaking, if there had been an individual who had carried
out such actions from that period, how do you think he would be remembered
by the Sikh community? What words do you think may be used to describe him
or his action's?**
It is the answer to the question above which will provide a eternal
punishment.
Furthermore unless reality overcomes their provincial nature, neo-nihangs
will
carry the actions of this man as a constant liability.
Gur Fateh
Sukhbir Singh