BabbarSher

Ok if u r referring to the last point where I say that Guru Maharaj got Vidya Dhar drowned so that no one would confuse the Guruship, the pint is that the same theory would apply to any other Granth to be compiled. Please read above what Bansavalinama or Panth Prakash have to say on this topic

Dont Deviate from the topic !!! I never said whether their (poets) works are or are NOT a part of Dasam Granth . Now u have started calling it Dasam Guru Granth Sahib., earlier it was Dasam Guru Darbar. Next thing u will be calling sarbloh Granth as Sarbloh Guru Granth Sahib !!!!!!! Again, dont deviate from the topic ....

The following article has been taken from Sikhbulletin and I have tried to translate some of it to English for the benefit of many readers. The translation may be a bit poor, so please excuse. BfeI sfihb ardmn isMG bfgVIaf ilKdy hn “…… qF BfeI mihqfb isMG jI ny ies df PLYslf qF nhIN pr gwl aYyAuN mukf idwqI ik ……[[ cunfic Auh mwsy ƒ soD ky PLqh pf ky vfps phuMc gey ar dsm gRMQ iewko hI pusqk dy rUp ivwc rwiKaf igaf”.iesy sbMD ivwc BfeI kfnH isMG nfBf afpxI rwcnf gurmq suDfkr ivwc ilKdy hn ik “……[ pRMqU pMQ ny dsmysL dy Qfpy inXm qoN ivrwuD ieh PYyslf sLKsI rfX pr kIqf. cfhIdf ieh sI ik dIvfn dI srbsMmqI nfl gurmqf soiDaf jFdf.……pr iksy gurmiq pRymI ny ies dy pUrx suDfr df AupfX nhIN kIqf”.[/p] Bhai Sahib Ardaman Singh Baghria writes “ So Bhai Mehtab Singh dint take a decision, but ended the conversation that since he has been able to kill Massa Rangarh, so the book Dasam Granth should be kept in a single volume Bhai Kan Singh Nabha also writes in his book Gurmat Sudhakar “ but the panth did not take this decision in accordance with the principles of Dashmesh Ji. It was essential that a Gurmata to the extent be adopted by the agreement of the whole Deevan – gathering. ies msly df iewk pwK ieh vI hY ik ajoky ‘dsm gRMQ’ dy srUp df sMkln mUloN hI dsm pfqsLfh dy afsLy, anuBUqI, drsLn aqy cyqn-Bfv dI dIdf dfinsqf Gor AulMGxf kr ky kIqf igaf jfpdf hY ikAuNik imldy purfqn dsqfvyjL ies Bfvnf dI pRoVHqf krdy hn. ig[ igafn isMG ny afpxI ikRq pMQ pRkfsL dy invfs 36 dy aMk 19 ivwc ieAuN aMkq kIqf hY. Its is difficult to translate the following but I will make an attempt Giani Gina Singh in his book Panth Prakash writes on Nivas 36, Ank 19 “----bflk iewk ibr isMGn bKXfq. gur iZwg ibnY krI ies BFq. (iZwg= awgy) They made a request before Guru Ji. hy siqguru jo qmurI bfnI. Dear Satguru, Your Baani cfhIey iewkTf bIV bnfnI. Why not make a single volume of the same afid gRMQ sfihb sm grMQ. And give it the same status as Guru Granth Sahib ieh BI bn hY mfny pMQ. so that the Panth should believe in it ? ieh sux dsmy gurU AucfrI. Hearing this the Tenth Master said gurU arjun Bey bz AupkfrI. Guru Arjan was a great Parupkaari iqn kI nih brfbrI chIeY. We cannot be his equals nf hm kry nf qum iPr krIey. Neither I am doing NOR U should do (i.e. compiling the Granth and giving it the same status as Guru Granth Sahib) ieiq afidk sux siqgur bYn. Hearing these words mon Bey qb sB isMG aYn]” All the Singh’s stood silent iesy qrHF s[ kysr isMG iCbr -bMsfvlInfmf ivwc vI pihlF hI kih cuwikaf hYY: Since Kesar Singh Chibbber Bansavilainama has been mentioned again and again, so I quote from the same as below on what he says about according the status of Guru to Dasam Granth, even if we belive him that Dasam Granth contents are all of Guru Ji’s ies gRMQ dUjyy dIaF BI sMcIaF iKMz geIaF. The second Granths Sainchis also got dispersed ieh gRMQ aAuqfr lIlf df jo hYsI bxfieaf.………[ This Granth concerning the Avatar Leelas which u have made sMmq sqfrf sY pcvMjy, isKF sfihb awgyy ibnqI sI kIqI. In the Sammat 1755, the Sikhs had requested Guru Ji grIb invfj jy bcn hovy qF, Garib Nivaj, we if you grant the permission dohF gRMQF dI ijld iewk cfhIey kr lIqI. Why not make a single volume of the 2 Granths sfihb bcn kIqf, eyih afid gurU hY gRMQ. Guru Maharaj said, The Ad Granth is your Guru Ehu asfzI Kyz hY, judf rhy mn mMQ]389] The other one is our game, it should remain separate always iewQy hI bws nhIN, pMQ pRkfsL krqf ig: igafn isMG, dsm gurdyv dI rcnf df poQIaF aQvf sYNcIaF ivwc hoxf vI idRVHfAuNdy hn aqy dsm gurdyv dI rcnf dy Aus smyN bIV-srUp nf hox dI pusLtI krdy hn. : Ginai Gian Singh who wrote Panth Prakash, also writes that the Dasam Granth was in sainchis and not in a single volume “jo ab gRMQ gurU kyrf] kihlfvq mD pMQ vzyrf] gurU ky smy bIV nih qF kI]BeI bfxIaf rhI iewkFkI] Aunky Tor poQIaF mfih] bfxI rhI dsm gur vfih]” Also please note the references to Vidya Sagar sB sMhsikRq BfKf krI. ividaf sfgr girMQ pr cVI] ividaf sfgr girMQ Bey iqafr.kC soB nmMq n pfrfvfr]9] (mihmf pRkfsL- ikRq bfvf srUp dfs Bwlf, sMmq 1833 ib[) Mahima Prakash –Bawa Sarup Das Bhalla iesy qrHF “bMsfvlLinfmf” df krqf - kysr isMG iCwbr vI ilwKdf hY “----smuMdR sfgr gRMQ jI rsnI sfihb dI hor jgf bxnf] ____sMmq sqfrF sY aTvMjy, so gRMQ jI ndI pvfieaf]” In the year 1758 Guru Ji got the Granth to be submitted to the river gurU jI dy smyN isrjy sfihq sbMDI “sRI gur pRqfp sUrj ” ivwc BfeI sMqoK isMG horF vI ieAuN aMkq kIqf hY. Regarding the literature that Guru Gobindh Singh Ji w compiled or got compiled. Bhai Santokh Singh in his Guru Partap Suraj writes “iqMn kvIan bfxI rcI, ilK kfgq qulvfey] 3 Poets wrote a lot of Baani, and thereafter the the paper were weighed nO mx hoie qol mih sUKm ilKq ilKfey] It turned out to be 9 Mann – Mann is a measure of weight ividaf Dr iqwq gRMQ ko nfm DrfEu kr pRIq]” The Granth was named Vidya Dhar ividaf sfgr, smuMdR sfgr jF ividaf Dr Bfv iksy vI nfm df jo gRMQ sI, Auh iCwbr dI Aukq ilKq muqfbk sfihbF ny afp sMmq 1758 ivwc diraf burd krvf idwqf sI. ieiqhfs ivwc ieh vI afieaf hY ik anMdpur Cwzx smyN bhuq sfrf sfihq srsf ndI dI ByNt cVH igaf sI qy kuJ mugl POjF ny qbfh kr idwqf sI. gurU jI vwloN gRMQ ƒ afpxy-afp diraf burd krfAuxf ies gwl df sMkyq hY ik Auh suinsicq krnf cfhuMdy sn ik Buwl ky vI EhnF df Kflsf pMQ iksy qrHF dy Brm-BulyKy ivwc af ky kdI BivwK ivwc vI EhnF dy afsLy qoN iQVk ky iksy vI hflq ivwc rcIaF imiQhfsk rcnfvF qoN iksy vI rcnf dI poQI aqy sRI gurU gRMQ sfihb dI brfbrI nf icqvy aqy “iqMn kI nih brfbrI chIey. nf hm krY nf qum iPr krIey” qy pUrI eImfndfrI aqy idRVHqf nfl pihrf dyvy. It is clear from above that the Guru Ji got the Vidya Sagar Granth to be drowned in the river. Why he did it, we need to ponder. Isnt it that he did not want anyone to be confused about Guru Granth Sahib Ji’s Guruship ?

Dear Sehjo Kaur Sikhism is about following the will of God. First we need to understand Hukam. To understand Hukam completely one has to be rid of ego. We are full of ego, so the real extent of His Hukam cannot be fathomed by any of us. However I think some pointers can be given. One pointer is that Hukam means the natural order/laws like the laws which govern the Heavenly bodies etc. I tend to view the growth of Hair as within his Hukam, however we have to take the law of genralisation and observation to decide where hair are meant to grow or not. 1. Hair in women normally will be on the Head, Pubes, armpits, legs and arms. I think this is natural and shouldnt be removed according tio sikhi principles. If someone does, then they are doing it for vanity or sexual pleasure, and they cannot justify their actions. a mistake is a mistake. I think admission is much better than justification. 2. The body hair of women are mush softer and sparser in growth as compared to men. 3. Perhaps Women's head on the hair are longer than men (average) cause thats natures way of making up for the deficency on face. 4. Women tend to loose less hair (head) as compared to men, who normally loose more as they grow older (due to testesterone production). 5. Men's facial hair are a way for nature to separte the sexes from one another. Left to completely pristine environments I dont think women will have excessive visible facial hair. So I dont think it is in accordance with the natural laws. the growth on face mainly is because the many pesticides etc. found in our food. I know its a tricky situation. I mean what would an Amritdhaari girl do, and none of us have the authority to pas a judgement. provide our views. :-) What Causes Unwanted Facial Hair? Except for your lips, palms of your hands, and soles of your feet, your entire body is covered with hair follicles. On most areas of the body, hair is "peach fuzz" - thin, fine hair that is called "vellus" hair. On the head, eyebrows, underarms, and pubic areas, the female body has thick, darker hair that is called "terminal" hair. All women have hair follicles below the skin surfaces of their face. Hair follicles are tiny openings in the skin where hair is produced. There are millions of hair follicles covering the human body, and the number of follicles each person has is set at birth. Facial hair growth is completely normal and natural (see The Hair's Natural Growth Cycle at right). The color and thickness of naturally growing hair is mostly determined by heredity. For example, if the women in your family have dense, dark, facial hair growth, you may as well. The Aging Process and Hair Growth In addition to heredity, another reason facial hair may begin to grow in women is the natural aging process. Every woman has a normal amount of male hormones (called "androgens") in her body. As women age, the body produces more of these androgens. Androgens may cause beard and moustache growth in men. In some women, they may cause an increase in terminal hair growth on the chin, upper cheeks or neck area, as they grow older. Underlying Medical Conditions and Hair Growth Though heredity or age causes most UFH, some facial hair growth can be linked to an underlying medical condition. Some medical conditions can cause an increase in androgen production, in turn causing UFH. One cause of excess androgens in the body is obesity. Fat retains androgen, so the more overweight a person is, the more androgen is kept in the body, potentially causing some male-patterned hair growth. Other medical causes for excessive hair growth can be disease, such as polycystic ovary syndrome, or hormonal fluctuations due to pregnancy or menopause. Some androgen-produced facial hair that grows in a traditionally male pattern (like a moustache and beard) is referred to by doctors as "hirsutism." Androgen-produced hirsutism can be caused by heredity, or by an underlying medical condition. AND What are the causes of Unwanted Facial Hair? It has been estimated that more than 40 million American women in the United States have unwanted facial hair. UFH may be caused by hereditary factors, part of the normal aging process, or by medical conditions such as androgen excess disorder or polycystic ovarian syndrome. UFH can be different for every woman, from a few hairs on the chin, light growth on the upper lip or heavy and beard like growth. One woman may find the slightest growth on her lip or chin terribly bothersome, while another woman may have visible hair on her upper lip and it may not bother her at all. Women with excessive facial hair often experience psychological factors such as low self-esteem and embarrassment. In 1999, over 13,000 women were interviewed about their facial hair and 45% noticed UFH within the preceding six months of the interview. One in five of these women removed the UFH at least weekly. These women came from all ethnic groups, ages and income levels. Common causes of UFH: Normal depending on racial and geographic origin. Different cultures and ethnic groups are more likely to have facial hair than others. Familial. Many women notice family members with similar distribution of UFH. Polycystic Ovary Syndrome. Abnormal ovarian function results from a hormone imbalance that can cause irregular menses, weight gain, and excess facial and/or body hair. Menopause. Many women notice the hormonal changes that occur during menopause will predispose them to abnormal amounts of facial hair. No known cause. It is important to talk to your doctor about unexpected or rapid unwanted hair growth. What are the Treatments for Unwanted Facial Hair? A number of options for treatment of Unwanted Facial Hair have commonly been used, including: Tweezing, Shaving, Bleaching, Depillatories, Waxing, Electrolysis and Laser. There is also a new prescription cream, Vaniqua, that is the first and only prescription cream proven to slow the growth of unwanted facial hair (UFH) in women. What is Vaniqua? Vaniqa (eflornithine HCl) is a topical solution available by prescription that has been clinically shown to slow the growth of unwanted facial hair (UFH) in women. When applied to the areas above the lips and on the chin can slow the hair growth significantly in those areas. Women will have to continue to use their normal hair removal system, but over time you will discover that hair removal will become less and less necessary, as the hair growth dramatically slows. Is Vaniqua safe? Vaniqa is a safe and effective way for women to deal with unwanted facial hair. Vaniqa is also safe to be used in conjunction with women’s conventional cosmetics. What about Side Effects of Vaniqua? Some women experienced mild and temporary skin irritations such as redness, stinging, burning, tingling or rash in clinical studies.

I am not saying u support Islam. However I would just like to make my point that people who are following Islam by the very rules of their religion have to be like and do like the prophet did. Or dont they cease to be muslims ? I mean if the leader showed them the way,wouldnt the followers follow. The point is that Islam gives its followers a clear agenda, which it wants muslims to follow. They may or may not becauase of Humanitariian sensibilities BUT not because of their religion.

Also please have a look at the following link. P.S.: I may not agree totally with the authors views on Sarbloh Granth, as I have studied very little of the Sarbloh Granth http://www3.sympatico.ca/devinder.chahal/journal/art009.html and http://allaboutsikhs.com/articles/us/001.htm I will try to add some more ref. tommorrow

Bachittar Natak Intro Bachittar Naatak is a famous composition in the†DASAM GRANTH â€. This small booklet describes the previous incarnation of the Tenth Guru, and His long and hard worship of God in His previous life. It also describes a brief history of the Bedi and the Sodhi dynasties; the birth of Guru Gobind Singh; and a few battles. But there is no mention of the “Amrit Ceremony†or the battle of Chamkaur. The Booklet is written in Brij, but has been translated by Giani Narain Singh in Punjabi. After studying the booklet very carefully, it becomes very doubtful that the Tenth Guru could be its author. If all those questions (doubts) are discussed in the present article in detail, the article would become much larger than the Naatak itself. Therefore only the most important questions will be shared with the readers. The whole discussion in this article is based on the translation of the Naatak by Giani Narain Singh. Comments on Bachittar Natak A number of other questions anise about the Naatak, but because the article has already become too long, only a few more questions or comments will be shared with the readers. a. It is written in the Naatak that at the time of the birth of Gobind Rai, Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib was on a pilgrimage (visiting holy places to take a dip), and when He learned about the birth of His son, He gave donations to the Brahmans for several days at Tribaini (Allahabad) to express His joy. 7/1 Mur Pit Purab kiyas payana. Bhaant bhaant ke tirath nahana. Jab hi jaat Tribaini bhaye. Poon daan din kert bitayye. All this is completely against the Principles of Gurbani and of Guru Tegh Bahadur Himself. The other Gurus also visited holy places, but not to take dip or to give donations. They did so because there are hundreds of thousands of people gathered at the holy places, and the Gurus used that opportunity to educate them. The Gurus did donate money on other valuables to some people, not because they were Brahmans, but because they were needy and poor. Visiting holy places because they can rid you of sins or giving donations to Brahmans has been condemned by the Gurus. The following sacred Shabads play down the importance of any pilgrimage and donations to the Brahmans. Kote tirath majan ishnana is Kal mein mail bhareejai. Sadh sang jo Har goon gavai so nirmal ker leejai. (Suhi M:5) Na bheejai roopeen maaleen rang. Na bheejai tirath bhaviyan admin cut. Na bheejai daateen keetai poonn. Na bheejai baahar bathiyan soonn. (Vaar Samag M:1) Ja mein bhajan Ram ko nahi Tirath katie bert phoon rakhe neh manua bas ja ko. Nihfal dherm tahi tum manou saach kehat main ya ko. (Bilawal M:9) Tirath bert er daan ker mun mein dharre guman. Nanak nifal Jaat tih Jioun kuncher ishnan. (Salok M:9) The Tenth Master Himself was not convinced that any pilgrimage on donations can help one in his spiritual journey. He writes: Tirath kote keeye ishnan deeye bahu daan maha bert dhaare Des phiriyo ker bhes tapo dhan kes dharre na mille Har piyare. (TuvPersad Savayye) Bedi and Sodhi Dynasties The Bachittar Naatak describes the History of the Bedi and the Sodhi dynasties as follows. Lord Ram Chander Ji had two sons - Luv, and Kush. Kaal Rai, a descendent of Luv, and Kaal Kate, a descendent of Kush, developed some uneasy disagreement. KaaI Kate defeated KaaI Rai who fled to the State of Sanaudh where he married the daughter of the State ruler. A son was born to Kaal Rai who was named Sodhi. That is how, the Sodhi dynast;y started. After some time, the Sodhis, who were the descendents of Luv, attacked the state of KaaI Kate, and defeated the Kushis who fled to Benanas. The Kushis studied Vedas for a number of years at Benaras, and came to be called as Vedis on Bedis. After sometime, the Sodhis invited the Bedis back to their State. The Bedis narrated the Vedas to the Sodhi ruler first the three Vedas, Yajur, Rig, and the Saam - and then the fourth, Atherban. The reigning Sodhi was very pleased to listen to the Vedas because all his sins were washed away by listening. He was so happy that he left the throne, gave it to the Bedis, and banished the city to go to some forest to lead the life of a hermit. The Bedis were very happy to get the power, and they promised that when he (we could not understand which one of the Bedis) would be born as Guru Nanak in Kal Yug, he would also give the Guruship to the Sodhis. And just as he was given the power after listening to the fourth Veda after the first three, he too would transfer the Guruship to the Sodhis, after three gurus, starting with the fourth. (What a ridiculous story!) 2/28 Kaal Kate bhayo bali apara. Kaal Rai jin nagar nikara. Bhaaj Sanaudh des te gaye. Tahi bhoop ja biahat bhaye. 2/29 Tih te pootter bhayo jo dhama. Sodhi Rai dhara tih nama. Bans Sanaudh ta din te theeya. Param Pavitter purakh ju keeya. (God Himself started the Sanaudh Dynasty) 3/32 Luvi serb jeete Kushi serb haare (The Kushis fled to Benaras) Chatur Bed pathiyang keeyo Kashi basang. Ghanne barakh keene taha hi nivasang. After sometime, the Sodhis invited the Bedis back. Battle of Bhangani and Events Therafter When the Tenth Master was residing at Paonta Sahib, the Hills Rajahs, forced a battle on the Him. It is a long story in itself. The Tenth Master won the battle despite the fact that His Pathan soldiers played treason and defected to join the enemy forces. Describing His victory, the author of the Naatak, purporting to be the Tenth Master,writes: 8/35. Ranang tiyag bhaage. Sabhe trass paage. Bhayee jeet meri. Kirpa Kaal Teri. The Tenth Master, who always attributed his victories to God by emphasizing, “Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh†claims this victory to be His own. It seems very unlikely for the Tenth Master to have written something like that. However, this is not that serious. The more serious thing is the alleged action taken by the Tenth Master against the people of Anandpur Sahib when He went back there after the battle of Bhangani. The author of the Naatak writes that the Sikhs did not find rest in Paonta after the battle of Bhangani, and the Tenth Master went to the State of Kehloor where he built a village, named, Anand Pur. The people who had helped the Guru in the battle were richly rewarded, but the ones who did not help, were hung and beaten very brutally. They died a dog’s death. Others were forced to leave the town. 8/36 judh jeet aye jabbai tikai na tin pur panv. Kehloor mein bandhiyo aan Anand Pun ganv. 8/37 Je je nen toh na bhirre deene nagar nikar Je tih thaur bhale bhirre tinai ken pritpar. 8/38 Bahut divves eh bhant bataye. Sant ubhar dushat sabh ghaye. Tang tang ker hanne nidana. Kooker jim tin tajje parana. A. Can you believe that the apostle of love and kindness - the Tenth Master who served water, and who applied bandage to the wounds of even the enemies that too in the battle field can treat the innocent citizens like the way described above; and on top of that take pride on such inhumane actions? Let us not forget that the Tenth Master is the spiritual incarnation of the great Guru Nanak, who not only forgave, but also embraced hard core criminals and sinners like Sajjan The previou incarnation of the Tenth Master As discussed earlier, the author of the Bachittar Naatak writes that before the Tenth Master was born to Maata Gujri Ji and Guru Tegh Bahadur in Patna, He spent a lot of time at Hem Kunt Parbat to realize God by hard self discipline and worshiping God. As a result, He became one with the God. Then the God called (Guru) Gobind Singh to Him and described the whole story of the creation of the universe. Next God asked the latter to go to the Earth to spread God’s Word so that the people worship Him (God). God also wanted the Tenth Master to punish the sinners and the devil.That’s why the Tenth Master was born. The following lines from the Naatak describe the above assertion. Hum eh kaaj jagat mo aaye. Dharam het Gurdev pathaye. Jahan tahan tum dharam bitharo. Dushat dokhiyan pakar pachharo. Yahi kaaj dhena hum janmang. Samajh leyo adhu sabh manmang. Dharam chalawan sant ubharan dushat sabhan ko mool uparan. A number of questons arise from this story, however, we are afraid that raising those questions may not leave an impression of disrespect for the Tenth Master whom we adore. But the kind-hearted and intelligent readers will come to realize that our criticism is directed at the Naatak, and not at the most revered Guru Gobind Singh - the tenth spiritual incarnation of Guru Nanak. Some of the questions are as follows: a. Did the first nine Gurus not spread the Word of God? Were they asking people to worship them (the Gurus)? Time and again Guru Nanak described Himself an insignificant dhadi (bard) of Waheguru who was here to sing His (Waheguru’s) praise. He also described Himself the lowest of the lowliens. The succeeding eight Gurus did the same thing. A few sacred hymns are given below just as examples. Haoun dhadi vekaar kaare laya. Raat dihoun ke vaar dhuron furmaya Dhadi kare pasau Sabad wajaya. (Majh ki Vaar. M:1) Neechan ander neech jaat neechi hoon ut neech Jitthe neech samaliyan uthe nazar Ten bakhsheesh. (Siri Raag M:1) Haun dhadika neech jaat hore uttam jaat sadayende. Tin mangan Jo tudhe dhiayende. God: Jealus, Imperfect The author of the Naatak writes that the God told the Tenth Master His woeful tale that when He (the God) created the demons first, they became all too powerful and because of their power, they went crazy and became problematic. As a consequence, the importance of God, who was worthy of worship, began to weaken. 6/6 Jab pehale hum srishat bnayee. Daeet (demons) rache dushat dukhdaee. Te bhujbal bawre ho gaye. Poojat parampurakh reh gaye 6/7 Te hum tamik tanak mo khape. Tin ki thaur devta thape Te bhi bal pooja urjhaye. Aapan hi Permeshar kahaye. So, God got so mad that He destroyed them at once. Then He (God) created gods. But gods too began to call themselves God and rather than making the people worship God, they got the people to worship their might. As a result God, who was the real deserving of worship, was pushed aside, and the gods became popular. So, God was really upset with both - the demons, and the gods - and asked (Guru) Gobind Singh to go to the Earth, and make people worship Him. This story raises a number of questions, and a number of conclusions can be drawn from it which are as follows: QUESTIONS: a. Why did God make the demons first of all? Did He want to start the universe with evil souls to begin with? b. And if that is what He wanted to do, why was He surprised? What else did He expect from the demons? c. If no other living beings had been created yet (gods were created only after the demons were destroyed) whom the demons were hurting or bothering. And who acknowledged their might? d. Was God so weak that He felt threatened by the demons, and He killed them out of fear? e. Did God have no foresight that if the demons had become rebellious, the gods could also act the same way? Also, since both the demons, and the gods showed no respect for God, what was the difference between the two? f. Was God so desperate to be worshiped that He had to implore (Guru) Gobind Singh to help Him? g. If nobody worshiped God, what did the Tenth Master do to become God’s favorite? According to the Naatak, the Tenth. Creation of the Universe According to SGGS, God creates the universe at His own will, applying His own Laws (Hukam), but nobody can claim to know when and how the universe was created. Only God Himself knows about it; no god or goddess has any knowledge of that. a. Hukmi hoven aakar Hukam na kahiya jaee (Jap Ji) b. Kawan su wela wakhat kawan kawan thit kawan waar Kawan su rutti mahu kawan jit hoa akaar Ja Karta sirsthi kau saaje Aape janai soi (Japji) But according to the Naatak, God took out earwax from one of His ears and created two demons - Keetabh, and Madhu. Then He took out earwax from His other ear, and created the rest of the whole universe. 2/13 Ek servan te mail nikara. Taa te Madhu Keetabh tan dhara. Dutiya kaan te mailu nikari. Taa te bhayee srishat ih saari There are dozens of questions that arise from this story about the creation of the universe. But only a few will be discussed. a. Bachittan Naatak, beyond any doubt, posits that God is not formless. Indeed, He has a body like any human being, and has two ears. b. God does not keep His body clean. His ears are so dirty that He was able to create the whole universe from the wax of one ear alone. We wonder what the present level of God’s cleanliness is! c. If God has human form, He needs some place to set feet on. Before He created the universe from the wax of His ears, what was He standing (or lying or sitting) on? Also, He created the two demons before He created the rest of the universe, so where did the two demons stand? d. The wax from one of the ears of God is masculine (mail nikara) while from the other it is feminine (mailu nikari) e. Guru Nanak’s theory about the creation of the universe (or matter) is totally different from the claim of the Naatak. In Siri Rag, Guru Nanak writes that God created gases first from Himself, which transformed into water, and then into solid. Saache te pawna bhaya pawne te jal hoye. Jal te tirbhawan (three-dimensional solid) saajia Waheguru Kaal or Akaal While describing the characteristics of God at the very beginning of Guru Granth Sahib (GGS) in Jap JI, Guru Nanak describes Him as “Akaal†meaning that time has no effect, whatsoever, on God. God never gets older, and He never dies. In fact, nowhere in GGS, not even once, God is referred to as “Kaal†which means both, time and death. Even in Jaap Sahib, which is written by the Tenth Master, God is referred to as “Akaal†and not as “Kaalâ€. If ever there is a reference to God in Jaap Sahib, as “Kaalâ€, it is “Kaal of kaal†which means even death is killed (controlled) by God. In our Slogan “Bolle so nihal, Sat Sari Akaal†which is supposed to have been initiated by the Tenth Master, the reference to God is “Akaalâ€, an not “KaaIâ€. So, how can the same Guru refer to God by “Kaal†repeatedly in Bachittar Naatak only, and in none of His other writings? The following are a few examples among scores in the Naatak where God is referred to as “KaaI†1/83 Firre chaudhoon lokyang kaal chakrang. Sabhang naath naathe bharmang bhauh bakrang Kaha Ram Krishanang kaha chand soorang Sabhe haath bandhe kharre Kaal hajoorang 1/84 Kaal hee paye bhayo Bhagwan so jagat ya jag ki kala hai KaaI hee paye bhayo Barahma Shiv KaaI hee paye bhayo jugia hal 2/2 Mook oochrey Shaster khat ping girn charh jaye Andh lakhai badhro sunai jau Kaal kirpa karaye Meaning: A dumb can say all the six Shastras, and a lame can climb a mountain. A blind can see, and deaf can hear if, oh God, you show kindness. 2/10 Pritham Kaal jab kara pasara. Onkar te srishat upara. 8/34 Ranag tiyag bhage. Sabhe trass page. Bhaiijeet men. Kirpa KaaI Teri. Note: The war slogan of the 10th master is " Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh ". But here the author is referring to his own victory which is uncharacteristic of the Guru. 14/1 Serb KaaI sabh sadh ubhare. Dukh de ke sabh dokhi mare 14/5 Serb Kaal hal pita apara. Deb Kalka maat hamara. I have edited/reproduced and articel from the internet for Benefit of AS Kang and Beast . The articel is not comprehensive and not the same as Kaala Afghan but gives a few valid points. Akal Sahai Babbar Sher

Guys I can send the Gurmukhi PDF files or upload em if the Moderators allow.. it Please check out the discussion on http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=1887 where I have given my side of the arguments

Moderator's Note: BabbarSher, Any Links to Kala Afghana sites will be removed. Last thing we want to do is to break Akaal Takth Hukamnama to boycot all Kala Afghana Materials. I hope you co-operate with us and next time "Do Not" Post any Kala Afghana Materials on this site.

Noor: Please read the History of early Islam, strating from the days of the Prophet. Whats Dar ul Islam and Dar Ul Harab. Is it incorrect that Jews and Pagans were murdered by the Prophet in cold blood ? Is it incorrect that their women were captured, made slaves and given to the followers of the prophet to be used as sex machines ? Is it incorrect that the Prophet married beautiful Jewess the same night after killing her husband abd relatives. Is it incorrect that Quran clearly states that u should fight and destroy the infidels and humiliate the people of the book.. Please address these questions Noor. Suggested reading: Life of Mahomet: Sir William Muir

hmmm...RSS u say..Do u know that a minister of their's ..who wears a turban..is getting Dasam Granth published and asking people to do its prakash How come they never show the same reverence to Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Talking about RSS..... Sardar Moderator Singh Ji...can u pls provide answers to Kala Afghaan, rather than just saying that the guy is wrong. ... Do u even know what he says >>>> !!!!

Nopes. I have been going to Bangla sahib to get a copy of Sikh Phulwari,s O I can locate the verse....No luck...as the Missionaries dont set up a camp there. they also dont have an internet website (I couldnt find one) If u have a copy of baal Phulwari or the Gurdwara Gazette, u will find it quoted there Also, there is very lilttle on the internet., to help in the cause. Still i am on the job, give me 15 more days.

Lalleshvari: I have heard this argument from you before regarding Charitro. I am not under any Victorian - sex ia a taboo influence. I think sex is beautiful...but there is always a distinction between Masters and Johnsons and a XXX movie. But it is not sex, yet the ways in which it is depcited e.g. Thukai, Bajayi ...are these the only words that can be used to depcit sexual act. This is not erotic by any means..more pronographic. Further some funnily vulgar acts like the head of the princes goes up in the vagina of a mare since he was standing too close.. Whats the point here ?? Also many of the stories are without any moral and in fact give a totally different moral, the righteousness doe not prevail.....it teaches u to be corrupt. Some of the stories are so vile as to point directly to Dasmesh Ji as one the characters of the stories. (as Piara Singh Padam points out). Really I think we are committing a blasphemy if we are accpeting Charitro and in efect all these stories which include stories meant to be the 'aap beeti' of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. P.S. If you want i can provide the exact quotes for all the above. I am not a sunni mullah and u of all the people should know that ......based upon my muslim bashing as people call it ;-) P.S. Chaupai Sahib is not away from doubt :-), as u have rightly pointed out its source, I used to be a big fan of Chaupai sahib till about an year ago, when things changed. Although you may consider Kala Afghana a herectic .....please try and read his books on Charitro an Bachittar Natak. If the points hehas addressed can be answered, that would be great. If you want I can provide u the PDF files.

zombie plucking eyebrowed women thankyou How awful....those pencil thin eyebrows are the biggest turn off. :-) One should remain as natural as possible, but if there i some divergence from the natural state like facial hair for gals..I dont see any probs in taking a bit of medicine to rectify it should the gal feel that way. Then again its the gals decision. She should do it without pressure. Pssst...Please No pencil thin eyebrows and short skirts..... they r awfull.. and lot of macchar (masquito) can bite u if u r in short sikrts and malaria can happen ...lol... and I dont want me gal to be kambing (shivering) all the time ;-)......................am I sick or what !!

Dear Gupy, You have given a very good website resource, from which I am donwloading the PDF files : related to the proofs that Dasam Granth is Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Baani. Lets see if they have any valid reasons. I would like to discuss the Dasam Granth in complete details - the controversial portion after somone has read it. So pls read it asap. I have asked a lot of people here quite many times, to discuss the controversial parts with me, but they dont seem to respond. If you want I can send over the criticism of Bachittar Natak and Chritro to you. You can read, read counter arguments and then we can discuss, as you please. :-) Regarding your questions, I am trying to answer below: 1) Without Dasam or Sarbloh Granths, what references from Guru have we got to any of our martial tradition (or Khalsa in general). >>>>>>>>>No one, not even the most skeptical has ever question Baanis of Guru Granth Sahib which give reference to martial traditions. I have already told you what people raise their doubts on and rightly so. 2) Surely without the influence of this Bani we would lack a major part of the Singh Guru Ji created, not to say Guru Granth Sahib Ji isn't a perfect teacher. >>>>>>>>>No I dont agree with you. When Dasam Granth was not there, Guru Hargobind Sahib's singhs fought with an equal bravery. The soldier stems from the saint, not vice a versa. 3) Isn't the fact that we've turned our back on this Gurbani the reason why we are today? How do you know that those who conspired to have them taken away, intended this to be the case. >>>>>>>>>>>I could say the same siting Guru Gobind Singh Ji's word so oft used by Kala Afghana ..Jab eh Gaye Bipran ki Reet........the point is what is Bipran Ki Reet ..isnt reading and following chritro and bachittar natak going to be Bipran Ki Reet?? 4) Surely form a purely academic point of view (i.e. structure of poetry, mythology and application) the work of GuruGobind Singh Ji should be Widely acknowledged. >>>>>>>>>>>>>The answer to all your questions is that no one objects to all of the Baani. The Baani was compiled in a Granth form after Gureu Gobind Singh Ji and hence ti cannot be that all the Baani in it is as holy and non questionable as Guru Granth Sahib Ji. 5) If you refuse to see Dasam and Sarbloh Granths in the same light of Bani, then why do most people do 3 out of 5 shabads from outside Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Surely this 'Maryada' of Nitnem stems from an old one where all 3 Granths are held high? >>>>>>>>Can you please elaborate on this Maryaada more? 6) And at the end of the day, politics and other stuff aside, if this bani helps you, then whats wrong? My personal experience shows me that this bani has an effect, and to me feeling is believing. Just take Jaap Sahib or Chaupae... there just as special as Japji Sahib or Anand Sahib. Again from an academic point of view, the seem to have similar intricacy as Guru Granth Sahib Ji. >>>>>>>Gupy, the crux is, please study Chritro and Bachittar. I have never doubted Jaap Sahib or Akal Ustat. Baani's central motive is that we should read, understand and inculcate it in our lives. can we do the same for Chartro and Bachittar

Dear All, It is up to the girl to decide whether she has to remove the hair from her face or not. However for girls I dont think it amounts to apostasy (Please note that this is a personal viewpoint and not a judgement) More often than not, however hair growth on face for girls is because of some minor hormonal fluctuations. It cannot be termed as natural. These fluctuations can be caused due to the environmental factors like Pullutants, pesticides, chemcials etc. The best solution is not waxing, or shaving, rather to go in for the medication and recolve the root cause. More often than not such medication is succefful. Please NOTE, this is a not a disease. If you love someone, the person will always appear beautiful to you, no matter what. Sometimes many of the singhs have a little growth on their faces - because of fungal infection or hormonal disturbance. This may be again corrected or left as it is. Dearth of beard of dense growth doe not make one a sikh. It is submission to the Hukam and one needs to recognise the Hukam, the natural order of the Universe - as given by God.

Dasam Granth cannot be accorded the status of Guru Granth Sahib. Guru Granth Sahib was copiled by Guru Maharaj himself. Dsam Granth was not. It contains a lot of baanis whihc could not have been written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Please read the contents of Charitro, Bachittar Natak and Hikayats before providing your expert opinions.

Lallehsvari: r u referring to the mythical Krishna Avatar or The One Lord.... You of all people should know Gurbaani rejects al mythical creatures as well as Avatars.

No Amrik $ingh I though u were referring to Dasam Granth and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Sorry bro..if I miscommunicated, and I totally agree with you on both Gurus giving the same message - can be extended to genuine baani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and Baani of Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Guru Granth Sahib. Dont mind man..:-) i am sorry for the miscommunication Jamuka: Yes, partly it is true that they have been corrupted by the Brahmins..(as u would expect of em) BUT there are some like Chritro ..which dont qualify to be Guru Gobind Singh Ji 's writing - if u can read Gurumukhi (and I think u can).....lemmi know ur email and I can send u an analysis of the Dasam Granth's spurious compositions. - like Charitro and Bachitar Natak.

Two question to NEO and Amrik $ingh 1. Have you read Charitropakhyan and Hikayatnamas as well as Bachittar Natak? 2. Amrik $singh , can u please elaboret how Chraitro and bachitar give out the same message Bachittar Natak shows Guru Tegh Bahdur Ji as undertaking pilgrimages !!! among the numerous other fallacies... Are u guys willing to accept that. What is the meaning of Pritham Baghauti Simar Ke ???? Does this mean sword here or devi here or God her ?? If you have read charitro and Bachittar Natak, we will discuss it right here...or in a new post. I had a length discussion about CharitroPakhyan on this forum and in the end it turned out that the other person hadnt even read the Charitropakhyan or for that matter any of the books objecting to it !!!!!!! Please read it before making comments. I have explained this SO MANY times, BUT do u guys read my posts or just make remarks like that !! and I say again..... No one has doubted Jaap Sahib ever. It is evident from the Sakhi Neo mentioned that Guru Mahraj was upset about Jaap sahib not being read. (I dont belive in the saakhi because, i dont think Guru Maharaj will ever be sad or angry at a sikh not reading a certain part of Gurbaani...any I have assumed that it is true). Our Guru doesnt have such a small heart. His Hirda is vishaal. "I think sikhs need to understand their own guroo(shabad guroo) before rejecting dasam granth and sarbloh (disowning their own guroo) which is not good when you go guroo maharaj durbar" Please my humble request, Dasam granth is not our Guru. You are making a big mistake by associating a sharik to Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Some of the Baani in Dasam Granth is Guru Gobind Singh Ji's baani, definately BUT not all of it. Even if we were to remove the spurious portion from the Dasam Granth compilation, we cannot accord the same level to Dasam Granth. If you want I can quote historical quotes from an old manuscript whereby Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself rejected the Khalsa's request to compile his Baani in a Granth..and warned them ...."Naa Haum Karein, Na Tum Phir kario" Akal Sahai Babbar Sher

theeek hai princess ji..par dassna taan saada farz hai na jee. Je mere naal da agg cha chaal maaran ja riha hove taan ...the least I can do is try n stop him for a couple of times. ;-) (I agree with you lil one...but if any of us that we consider dear to us is bent upon jumpin into a fire..the least we can do is try and make em understand that its fire and will burn em....for a couple of times...rest of course we still have to leave to em). ;-) *8 Just translated from Punjabi to English- dint know if the lil princess is conversant in punjabi (please no offence ..:-) Big Smile :-) Girl UK: well now that we hava Yeah from you .....when r ur friends joing the sikhawarness family ....big smile Three cheers for ya and yours friends if they join our motley crew

I agree with you on sikhi part. but you are totally wrong on "one yet expressed in three sublime forms Adi Guru Darbar, Dasam Guru Darbar and Sarabloh Guru Darbar. Just like ekomkar! " Why cant you people refer to Guru Granth Sahib Ji by their proper name rather than Adi Guru Darbar- why do you have to be totaly different from the Panth. Why do u want to associate shariks to Guru Granth Sahib Ji? First it was Bachittar Natak Granth, then dasam Granth, then Dasam Sri Guru Granth sahib, and now Dasam Guru Darbar. Whats the next name coming up. First it ws just a granth and now people are doing a prakash of it on the same level as Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Whom did Guru Gobind Singh Ji bestow the Guruship on ?? Although I respect you a lot on some aspects, your above statement has really come as a shock. Just by putting Guru Granth Sahib with so called Dasam Granth and Sarab loh Granth, you have separted Guru Granth sahib Ji the present and eternal Guru of the sikhs from the rest of the ten Gurus. You are taking Bhai Gurdas Ji's words too far by implying that Guru Granth Sahib's jot is the same as Dasam Granth and Sarabloh Granth. Dasam Granth - as present in the compiled form is NOT all of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's baani. Charitropakhyan and hikyatnamas defy all logic and purpose as does Bachittar Natak.

Agreed....but the only the outer actions may be a bit different as Bhai Gurdas Ji noted. The principles remain the same

There is absolutely no differnce in the teachings of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji or for that matter the other Gurus - as the time span of normal human life was not sufficent to solidify a concept such as Khalsa - the perfect human being - hence the 11 Gurus. What Guru Nanak Dev Ji presented to the world, Guru Gobind Singh Ji formalised - the other Gurus were various stages in this formalisation. ' This is an irreversible process just like an evolution. Just like Bandook said- all the Gurus are the same Jot. People who try and find differnces at this level are Manmukhs.

Hi GirlUK, We cant do much about the parents....BUT....................................... Can you ask your friends to join this Forum. We would love to help them learn about sikhi :-) Give me one hell of a yeah ;-) Akal Sahai Babbar Sher