Jassa

I have not dictated anytihing...nor am i in a position to do so... the akaal takht does the dictating and i follow what they say. im not using human standards, im using sikhi standards...i dont care what human standards are only what my Guru's acceptable standards are. Who are you to say is devoid of spirituality...You seem to be always suggesting that moneh are always good natured people who want to learn but its the Gursikhs who adopted the roop of their Guru that are the ones who know nothing about their true religion. I think not. where have i done this? I didnt give my definition of a sikh...I gave Gurbani quotations for my definitions of a sikh with the aid of rehitnamas. Therefore if you want to blame me for my definition ask Guru Ji. There is no hiding from this line Rehit pyaara mujhko sikh pyaara nahee which means the rehit is beloved to the Guru...Not the sikh. I do not consider people who cut their hair to be on a par with Amritdharis as amritdharis have given their head to their Guru. They have followed what Guru Ji's hukam was. If they are of the same statues what is the need for amrit? and then what do you make of rehit bina nahee sikh kehaavai...which means without rehit one cannot call himself sikh. Frankly I am not concerned with your welfare.I once was concerned but since your very attitude to my help towards you was to argue I feel no need to consider your welfare. I never said you dont look the part. so i dont know where you got that from. When did these sikhs who want to follow maryada become self serving,...I think that there are roles for non keshadari sikhs within a gurdwara but these do not involve the main activities or for Guru Maharaj's Paath. They may do there paath in Gutkeh but it is beyadhbi to allow a patit to do paath from Guru Maharaj's swaroop. Ive shown you bani quotes but all you have shown me is your personal opinion.i.e your own mat. trying to argue against how Guru Ji has defined it... Could someone versed with dasmeh patshahi bani please provide the exact quote...I shall try looking aswell. Even without hearing the quote you are trying to find excuses to hold it to your viewpoint... Either way...ive heard your views...dont agree with what your saying and would like to see some Gurbani quotations to back up what you are saying. I didnt say the couldnt learn from Guru Maharaj...They may study it through other means but as yet are not allowed to read from Guru Maharaj saroop as per maryada. I did not say they were not allowed to read full stop. Stop putting words in my mouth.

lalleshwari you find every oppurtunity to insult or somehow put blame onto AKJ...no matter how much paath you may do...how much sewa you may do...it is futile if you cant have some prem towards your fellow sikhs or even human beings for that matter. I dont believe Guru Ji's wives looked like that. On the website you mentioned it made no mention of Guru Ji looking like that. You have given no factual evidence for your statements...Just shown a bunch of paintings by a hindu guy on a website and trying to` convince us this is what our Guru looked like. I think nearly every jatha apart from this newly concocted so called sanatan sikhi will agree that dastaar does no mean a 3rd gender. The Damadami Taksal can trace their lineage to Baba Deep Singh Ji. Many of their women wear dastaar. Im sure theydont consider themselves to be a 3rd gender.

There is a quote from Guru Gobind Singh...sorry i dont have access to it at the moment but will do when i have more time....it says that without his/her hair kept and shastar a sikh should not come into Guru Ji's presence. I do not have the exact quote as I need to find it...However i will find this...in the meantime could someone more learned please provide the quote. please dont attempt to put words into my mouth nor guess what i am to say.you have no idea. how are their ways non-humanitarian...by which standards?western standards?? how would anyone but a sikh know about the maryada of a gurdwara. dhaarrhaa mushh sir kaes banaaee || hai eih dhrirrh jih prabhoo razaaee || maett razaaee j sees mu(n)ddaavai || kahu thae jag kaisae har paavai ||80|| The hair moustache and beard are created within God's order. How can those who violate their natural form by cutting their hair ever be accepted by the Lord?. Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh Also Guru Gobind Singh Ji says Nishan-e-Sikhi ast in Panj har kaf Hargiz na bashad azin panj muaf Kara, Karad, Kacha, Kanga bi dan, Bina kesh kes hech ast jumla nishan. [These five letters of K are emblems of Sikhism. These five are most incumbent, Steel Bangle, big knife, shorts and a comb; without unshorn hair the other four are of no significance] Guru Ji says "Rehit bina nahi sikh kehaavai" or "Rehit pyaara mujhko sikh pyaara nahee" If this is what Guru Ji says, then why should the people who do not follow Guru Ji's rehit, and therefore are not his beloved be allowed to do his sewa. What this comes down to is....what is your definition of a sikh?? By the above definitions i can only conclude that a sikh is one who has taken his Guru's amrit. The SGPC have declared a sikh is Any human being who faithfully believes in i. One Immortal Being, ii. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib, iii. The Guru Granth Sahib, iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh for those that are going to use this to argue i also suggest you read the rest of the rehit maryada where it talks about the hair not to be caught... Even still the bani of our Guru's is higher and they have placed such a high importance on kes. In the light of all this i think that a person who has committed a bujjhar kurrehit i.e. cutting hair should not be allowed to read from Guru Maharaj in a gurdwara. What one wishes to do outside the gurdwara in their own homes can not be enforced. They are allowed to dictate as all Panthic Jathebandies signed in agreement to their rehit, and which the Panth gave control of Gurdwareh to. The Akal Takht have the say on any matter in sikhi and can not be ignored.Fact is, whether it suits your personal brand of sikhi or not..what they say goes.

i think any sikh in the world would agree that wherever there is Guru Ji and sangat...that is a gurdwara.. there is nothing else required. Oh and Langar of course....There were gurdwareh before the SGPC and there will alwaya be gurdwareh. The non keshdari sangat can do other jobs within the gurdwara...certain things however are unavailable to them until they follow Guru Ji's hukam. This is not only my belief but of the majority of the Sikh Panth, who follow the authority of Sri Akaal Takhat Sahib.

i am referring to the maryada which EVERY jathebani and samparda signed. No i do not think of him as a lesser sikh. but it is still not per gurmat.

so are you saying drinking is allowed within sikhi??

Hari Said I made no mention of SGPC...only the Akaal Takht....therefore i can only assume his accusations to the SGPC are directed to the Akaal YTakht.. Before you spring to his defence n3o read what he said. You will find that he was infact talking about the Akaal Takht.

what about Bhagat Dhanna Jatt....his devotion overtook his ignorance about the futility of idol worship.. shaka nyorai you have a serious lack of knowledge on this...he was not respected by AKJ...so quit the misleading attitude. Give the sangat proof of AKJ respect for him. The rehit is not the same. Show me whee Teja Singh outlined his rehit. sharda is most certainly annihalated by nindiya which is all you seem to be doing.

No these are the standards that have always been present for the khalsa panth...Even most of the nakli nihungs believe you cant drink.

I have no personal vendetta against anyone. I do however have differences in opinion. Just as some of you have. Hari you call them heretical, i call you heretical for not accepting them as the leaders of the panth..This institution was started by Guru Ji himself. I dont know much abouit sikh heritage therefore why comment on something I dont know. You guys are all just got your kacherreh in a twist because Akal Takht is no longer controlled by Buddha Dal...You guys always complain that people believe amritdharis have monopoly...well how bout Buddha Dal...They want monopoly by saying they are the rightful heirs. Accept it...Budha Dal are not in charge. So please try to reallign into the panth and stop playing the rebel without a cause. SGPC have surely made mistakes, as does anyone...but they are with good intentions. That is why nearly all panthic institutions accept their command. Even Santa Singh, who git his tankha from an institution that apparently he does not accept. Seems a bit off to me!

n3o why the rude and condascending tone?i never showed you that disrespect and so would appreciate it back...for someone who preaches to everyone else i would expect you to speak in a polite tone. and n3o stop lying...how did the AKJ want to take out bhagtan di bani..Teja Singh Bhasauria did and was subsequently excommunicated...this had nothing to do with AKJ...Im not even an AKJ and i knw this...that is a blatant lie. and why all the links with teja singh bhasauria and Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh. Its a common known fact that when Teja Singh commited these acts Bhai Randhir Singh never spoke to him again. This argument has been going on forever with scholars so to blame it on Teja Singh would also be a lie. This topic will not convince anyone to start reading raagmala.... Both sides believe they are upholding the sanctity of Guru Maharaj...They will have to give lekha... and please stop doing the nindiya of AKJ..so n3o if you have something to say then provide evidence not lies.

no, gurdwaras existed before the sgpc... personally i dont even think this gurdwara your talking about even exists... i think your simply making a story to put across your view and put across your warped views. i hope im wrong and if i am i would like to speak to the gurdwara sahib involved. also maybe members like hari would like to contact them since he has shown such a strong disagreement. so which gurdwara sahib isit?

it is your paap to go against the akal takht not mine. They are the supreme body for the sikhs. anyomne may do paath in their own free time but i maintain that paath on Gur Maharaj da saroop at a gurdwara may only be done by an amritdhari person. This is maryada.

no i said that drinking would make someone a lesser sikh because it directly goes against the commandments of Guru Gobind Singh... Drinking is a bujjhar kurrehit and will make a person patit. calling yourself sexy, although against gurmat will not make you patit therefore for you to try and equate the 2 is just an attempt to create another pointless argument.

i asked which gurdwara sahib this is.... there should be no problem with that... maybe myself and other members may wish to ask the gurdwara sahib,,, if someone would like to know the location whats the problem.

true that many amritdharis are pakhandee... but still this does not take away from the akal takht maryada. they are the current authority on sikhi. what they say goes.

if a 'sikh' without kesh went to try and do path or kirtan at Sri Harmandir Sahib, Amritsar would they allow him....NO!! It is Akal Takht Maryada... and i am a firm believer that paath from Guru Maharaj, in a Gurdwara should only be done from Amritdhari sikhs. This is per Akal Takht Maryada... Also what Gurdwara Sahib is this??In what City and country?

This has been argued so many times... People will not change opinion so i think we stick to the akal takht hukam...those that read it read it those that dont will have to give lekha if it is gurbani. The funny thing i always find is...the people who argue most vehemently on this topic are the ones who havnt even read the first ang of Guru Ji.

Penji i didnt mean to sound angry... and hari veerji im sorry for using the trnslations that all i could provide at the time...you are right though, sikhi to themax often gives very suspect translations. But perhaps calling them idiotic is not the best way to describe, after all it was a big sewa by the people who made it. and sukhi penji, thjere is nothing wrong in revelling with the beauty around us....as long as its not other peoples beauty your revelling in.... if my beliefs are too 'fanatic' or 'backward' for this topic, then i am happy.. i maintain my belief it is against gurmat to call oneself sexy, and so even though personal beliefs of the people on this board may be different theres no point in making this get any more heated sorry to sexy_singh for gultiah on my part...i maintain my position but i think its time we agree to disagree. if people are angry about me using bani quotes that they felt were irrelevant than i apologise for that too, as i should have checked them. Bhull Chuk Khima Vaheguroo Ji ka khalsa Vaheguroo Ji ki Fateh

How does the gurbani quote about pride in beauty have no relevance to the name.... his name is declaring himself sexy. If im not mistaken that would ,mean pride in his appearnace and beauty. Therefore gurbani says jo jaanai mai jobanava(n)th || One who deems himself to have the beauty of youth, so hovath bisattaa kaa ja(n)th || shall become a maggot in manure its quite simple...

dhhan joban dhue vairee hoeae jinhee rakhae ra(n)g laae || Their wealth and youthful beauty, which gave them so much pleasure, have now become their enemies. aagai jaath roop n jaae || Social status and beauty will not go with you hereafter. ra(n)g roop ras baadh k karehi paraaneeaa || Pleasure, beauty and delicious tastes are useless; what are you doing, O mortal? HERES A REALLY GOOD ONE jis kai a(n)thar raaj abhimaan || One who has the pride of power within, so narakapaathee hovath suaan || shall dwell in hell, and become a dog. jo jaanai mai jobanava(n)th || One who deems himself to have the beauty of youth, so hovath bisattaa kaa ja(n)th || shall become a maggot in manure roop heen budhh bal heenee mohi paradhaesan dhoor thae aaee ||1|| I have no beauty, understanding or strength; I am a stranger, from far away. kishh roop nehee kishh jaath naahee kishh dta(n)g n maeraa || I have no beauty, no social status, no manners maal kai maanai roop kee sobhaa eith bidhhee janam gavaaeiaa ||1|| rehaao || You are wasting this life in the pride of wealth and the splendor of beauty Gurmat can only be achieved through listening to the Guru. He has clearly and without any confusion stated the you should not take pride in beauty. That is exactly what you have done...

didnt say that

i never said in my post that sikhi was better and that they should follow it...but whether i said it or not YEH I DO THINK SIKHI IS BETTER.thats why im a sikh. Oh and yeh i do think that sikhs who drink are lesser sikhs. Because they do not follow what their Guru says. And by the way....sikhs who drink are known as patit or fallen sikhs(apostates)...therefore yes they are less. If you disagree with that then go question the Akal Takht. Go put this question to the Damdami Taksal, whos Jathedar Sant Gyaani Jarnail Singh Bhinderawale tried to get all those people to stop drinking. Fact is....If sikhi says not to do something and a person who considers themselves sikhs does it than they are less of a sikh, simply because you are supposed to listen to your guru... but then again some 'sikhs' go around calling themselves sexy, and maintain this is right, May Guru Ji bless his panth so that it can return to its Gurmat Marg.

okay you've systematically twisted everything. not once did i say your not a sikh veerji i will NEVER consider calling oneself sexy acceptable to gurmat...but it does not make you a ikh, it makes you a sikh who is confused over a matter. Call me a non sikh call me a fundamentalist.. Oh and how can gurmat be only for the Guru..WEare instructed to follow gurmat. and my definition of gurmat is living life according to what gurbani says. So if Gurbani says kaaeiaa rath bahu roop rachaahee || Those who love their bodies and try different looks, thin ko dhaeiaa supanai bhee naahee ||2|| do not feel compassion, even in dreams. ||2 then that is how i will live my life... i believe you are fooling yourself if you believe that you mean sexy as in proud and since you are being so arrogant as to criticise someone whos only intention was to help you, and i can honestly say with my hand on my heart that i set off with good intentions. However Gurbani has spoken about people in this situation. saach kehai so bikhai samaanai || If someone tells him the truth, he looks upon that as poison. People who follow the ideals of gurmat are judged by dharamraaj to be gurmukhs...people who follow thier own beliefs, their own mat. What you done in a previous post was twist the meaning of gurbani to suit what you wanted. Therefore that was man mat and im not gonna beat around the bush now... If you wnt to go on pretending you are right so be it...You will be the one to give lekha for following your own mat. YOur only response to everything is fanaticism... fanatic adj : marked by excessive enthusiasm for and intense devotion to a cause or idea I only wish that i was a fanatic. Maybe it is my maare karam.

sorry veeji if this is the case but i think its relevant...because both topics are to do with telling the future right...it would be pointless to start a new topic on something so similar