amardeep

When I did the summary before I noticed that the notion of covering the one eye has already been used in an earlier charitar. Here we concluded that it means, his eyes of equality and justice was being covered. Also in terms of Man Karam Bach - the notion of rash decisions has already been mentioned and criticised in earlier charitars and also in the Zafarnama

Gurfateh I gave it a go and started summarising our analysis of the charitars so far. Interesting to see that we have been going on with this for almost a year and a half now and we are only at charitar 30!! I will update this and add new charitars in the upcoming weeks. Frame story Charitar 2 There is an old named King Chitar Singh , who is married to a (celestial?) fairy who he is deeply in love with. After some years she passes away and he is madly in love with her. He has paintings made of her, and sends them throughout India to find someone similar in appearance. A royal princess named Chitar Mati from the kingdom of Orissa is similar to the maiden. The King attacks the kingdom of Orissa, assassinates Chitar Vati’s father and then wins her over through conquest. This young lady later on gets sexually attracted to the son of the old King, the son’s name is Hanwant Singh. She plays a charitar on him in order to be alone with him, - the charitar being that she makes sure, that he will remain illiterate such that his teacher does not teach him anything. The Rani tries to seduce the prince but he refuses to have sex with his step mother (the queen). She then later accuses him of sexually assaulting her. The old King blindly believes in her lies and decides to execute his son, by death penalty. The Minister in the court knows the truth and tries to change the king's mind through a series of Charitars. Overall: A long conversation follows between the king and minister. It is a long array of messages that the minister is slowly by slowly trying to impart to the King. In essence, each charitar has a message regarding the king’s situation. Our analysis so far has showed the following messages from each charitar that the minister is trying to tell the king: · #2 Main charitar: the frame story of CP is similar to frame stories in the classical Sanskrit Panchtantar, which was also translated by the Guru’s court poets. Katha by Giani Harbhajan Singh says that the rani tried to keep him illiterate in order to have her own son become the successor to the kingdom. This shows that there is some oral traditions attached to the written text that we also need to be aware of. We speculate whether the rani has a grudge against the king because he has killed her entire family and forced her to marry him. · #3 - The wise minister attempts to show the King that he is being deceived. In story number 3 it states "that a young woman is captivated by a young man, whilst an old man is captivated by a young woman". This is the exact situation in hand. The young queen was captivated by the King's son, whilst captivating the King's heart herself. So as the wise minister explained in this story, the young woman just said some words to her old lover to keep his infatuation with her brimming, whilst hiding the truth. The old man because of his infatuation with the young woman didn't question her motives and believed her. In essence: Don’t blindly believe in what you are being told just because you are in love. · #4 – The minister is trying to say to the king, that some women can easily deceive a man with their looks and charm and men will act stupid by falling into traps of lust. The story has a greater focus on showing how stupid men can be, rather than how deceptive women can be. The person in this charitar is described as having only 1 eye – this means he is being fair, upholding justice an equality which are all the qualities of a good and kind King. The wise minister has told the King that the woman in the charitar has covered her husbands "one eye" therefore making him unable to uphold fairness/equality/justice . In the charitar it talks about noise, - noise is a representation that everything is not as it seems, but because the eye is covered the husband is not questioning it, even though he should know better. The wise minister is trying to tell the King, your vision of justice has been covered by the queen and you should be more questioning of her. · #5 - In this charitrar, the wise minister is trying to tell the King that The Yogi although he had a lot of power (like the King) and displayed it to the girl (as the King did) the girl was not content (as was the Queen) and when she saw that there was a young man (the King's son) more suitable for her she forgot about the Yogi and her heart became attached to the young man. Basically, The wise minister is trying to tell the King, that a young woman's heart will settle for a more suitable young man over an old man. There are similarities in this tale with the original tale: The Jogi abducts Sehaj Kala in this Charitar. We also know that Raja Chitar Singh's marriage with Chitarmati was kind of a forced marriage, i.e she was won in a war. She did not marry the king according to her own will. Maybe the wise minister is trying to tell Chitar SIngh that the way the Jogi kidnapped Sehaj Kala (and forcefully kept her) is not very much different from own case of marriage with Chitarmati. The King needs to figure out whether or not, Chitarmati is actually happy with him or not. In other words, is she suitable to be a queen or not. Next, in this tale, the Prince rescues Sehaj Kala from the Jogi. Again, the wise minister might be trying to convey to Chitar Singh that you are suppose to protect and save people, not wage a war (which results in the death of thousands) over a woman, who just happens to look like your wife. The Prince (even though not the King) understood his role and rescued the lady without any bloodshed, while you have not really been a good statesman. Now at this point we start to nice, that the stories begin to be similar in many aspects to earlier stories, with only minor differences. A lot of repetition. The characters are repetitive but it's the subtle differences in the text that are revealing snippets of information to the reader. Take into consideration the background to the text. The King is about to execute his son. So the Wise Minister has to tell him without being confrontational about it, otherwise he could share the son's fate as well. So he is telling the stories with small vital pieces of info to get the King thinking. These minor differences need to be highlighed as there is lots of info in the differences between each charitar. · #6 -this Charitar is unique. This Charitar involves a King (who is a brave person), but he falls for a citizen of his kingdom and commands her to come to his court to have sex. He gets rid of her husband and brings her to the court. The lady was a citizen subject of the King and he was suppose to treat her like a daughter, not force her to have sex just because he has the power to do so. He is brave yes but he is blinded by lust, - corrupt.. Similar to the main story, he kills his opponent and marries his daughter. He should be protecting her, not marry/rape her. The charitar deals with boundries for kings: are they allowed to do whatever they want with their subjects or conquered lands? In this charitar, the king in the story is being criticized for taking rash decisions – something Guru Gobind Singh also critisises Aurangzeb for in the Zafarnama. #7 - The charitar speaks of authority and knowledge and how people can sometimes defer complete judgement to people perceived to be experts, regardless of their actual abilities. In this story, the Minister is telling the King, that the woman has identified some ailment(representing weakness) in her first partner (representing the King). She has called the Vaid, telling the first partner she is concerned with curing him (helping him). In reality she humiliates him by performing bizarre remedies. The sentence from the charitar "The treatment must match the dissease" could be a reference to the main story of the king punishing his son way out of proportions... #8 - The wise Minister is telling the King, subtly that the Queen is trying to burn the house down to hide her misdeeds. As the son is the crown prince, the royal dynasty will end without a dynastic heir if the king ends up executng him (ie he will end up burning down his own house). #9 - About ego boosting that blinds your intellect. The female gives the man a a task which was very easy, and then she praises him for accomplishing a difficult task hereby fooling him. His ego is boosted and he does'nt see what is going on (ie he becomes blinded). The message mighe be: Just as the Raja in this story has been reduced to a position of an animal, - so too have you (the main king in the frame story) been reduced in your status as a king. Instead of being engaged in royal and governmental duties (as kings are supposed to), you have engaged yourself in trivial drama involving your own family and dynasty that you are about to destroy..You are reduced as a king - the dirt of this world is being thrown at you and you are eating it #10 - For the first time we see a charitar that continues, and we get to see the same characters from different angles/shots/life story events.It seems the wise Minister is telling the King that not only did the maid, out of revenge destroy her mistress but she also destroyed the King. The reference here is to his Queen not only having the King's son executed under a false charge, but also destroying the King himself by eliminating his heir to the dynasty, meaning the destruction of the dynasty. Also a feature of the 2nd part of the story is how the maid managed to play the characters off against one another to achieve what she wanted. It is written by Pandit Sharda Ram in 1866 in his Sikha ka Raj Ka Vithiya: "The Guru wished to compose a scripture by which the Sikhs could learn politics, martial skills, and by such intelligence be able for war. On that day, a large scripture was completed in september 1696. It was called the scripture of the tenth sovereign." [to be continued]

Yes it’s him

When one of us has time we should do a summary post that outlines the overall messages so far.. Such as: Charitar 1: Dont destroy your own lineage Charitar 2: Beware of relations that crosses boundaries Charitar 3: Beware of the fidelity of even people you trust Charitar 4: xxxxxx In this way, we can see how far the minister has advanced so far and get an overview of the CP so far

So the message is similiar to an earlier charitar - dont destroy your own lineage (house) by rash decision (executing your son) The Zafarnama has a similiar verse saying rash decisions is the work of satan... Other charitars earlier have also been expressed idea wise in the zafarnama showing continuity of thought

Spot on as in good translation or as in good analysis? are they similiar to our discussions here, - ie each charitar is related to the main story giving a new approcach to the sitution

I find most steeks to be mere translations. The faridkot is also translaton for the most part.

What do you think of the different steeks. Aren’t they often more like punjabi translations rather than commentaries and analysis

Quick thoughts: the woman uses her intellect to gain the upper hand she uses their carnal desires against them the men’s carnal desires end up being the root to their own destruction (a metaphor often used in gurbani)

That’s really interesting

@papiman what does niddar singh's commentary say about this story?

I agree with Lucky, the verse does not have anything to do with Bhangra dancing

He says in the beginning that he understands now and regrets his actions. I wonder in the next charitars if they show any further indications of him being wrong and what he might do instead. There are still more than 370 charitars to go so something else must happen in the frame story since the CP doesn’t stop and end here.

Yes exactly. I dont think it’s a coincidence. And the fact that many stories relate to kings and rulers of the time taking the mick of them. Thereby destroying their sanctity in the eyes of people. They’re as corrupt and weak as everyone else. And the fact that the stories are oral stories from all over being written down. The CP is mostly Indian in nature but in the hikayats you have stories of Chinese emperors and European kingdoms etc.

Wonderful thanks for sharing. Do you think CP is modelled somehow on 1001 nights? Is it a book that neeeds to be included somehow in the overall analysis

I dont think it's 325 years old. A beautiful saroop, but sad to see they've taped it together :( vandalism

Twarikh Guru Khalsa, Nirmala Giani Giaan Singh. ਿੲਕ ਿਦਨ ਸੰਗਤ ਿਵਚ ਭਾਈ ਦਰਗਾਹੀ ਤੇ ਭੰਡਾਰੀ ਆਿਦਕ ਿਸੱਖਾਂ ਨੇ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਕੀਤੀ ਿਕ ਮਹਾਰਾਜ ਜੀ । ਗੁਰੂ ਕੇ ਿਸੱਖ ਗੁਰੂ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਰ ਚਰਚਾ ਕਰਦੇ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਕੇਈ ਕੁਛ ਕਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੰ ਤੇ ਕੋਈ ਕੁਛ ਕਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੰ. ਜੇਕਰ ਆਪ ਅਰਥ ਿਲਖ ਿਦਓ ਯਾ ਟੀਕਾ ਿਲਖਾਓ ਤਾਂ ਿੲਕ ਤਾਂ ਸੁਖਾਲਾ ਸਮਝ ਪਵੇ ਦੂਜਾ ਵਾਦ-ਿਵਵਾਦ ਿਮੱਟ ਜਾਏ। ਗੁਰੂ ਨੇ ਬਚਨ ਕੀਤਾ ਭਾਈ ਿਸੱਖੇ । ਸਾਡੇ ਵੱਡੇ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਅਰਜਨ ਸਾਹਿਥ ਜੀ ਮਹਾਰਾਜ ਪਾਸ ਵੀ ਿੲੱਕ ਵਾਰੀ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਨੇ ਏਹੋ ਪ੍ਰਸ਼ਨ ਕੀਤਾ ਸੀ ਤਾਂ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੇ ਉਤਰ ਿਦੱਤਾ ਸੀ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਹੰ. ਸਾਰਾ ਅਰਥ ਕਹਿਣ ਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਸਮੱਰਥ ਨਹੀ. ਏਹ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਾਮਧੇਨ ਹੰ. ਿਸੱਖਾ ਦੀ ਬੁਧੀ ਤੇ ਕਾਮਨਾ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਫਲ ਤੇ ਅਰਥ ਦੇਵੇਗੀ। ਸੋ. ਏਸ ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਯਾ ਟੀਕਾ ਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਦੀ ਜ਼ਬਾਨ ਪਰ ਰਹੇਗਾ। ਏਸ ਬਾਣੀ ਦਾ ਟੀਕਾ ਨਹੀ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ. ਿਕਉਕਿ ਟੀਕਾ ਓਸੇ ਬਾਣੀ ਦਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੰ ਜੋ ਵਿਆਕਰਣ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਬਾਣੀ ਹੋੇੇਵੇ. ਪਰੰਤੁ ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਸੁਤੰਤਰ ਅਨੁਭਵ ਰੂਪ ਈਸ਼ਵਰੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਹੰ ਏਹ ਤਾਂ ਿਜਕੁਰ ਛੜੀਦੇ ਛਤੀਦੇ ਚਾਵਲ ਉਜਲ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਓਸੇ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਗੁਰਸਿੱਖ ਚਰਚਾ ਕਰਦੇ-ਕਰਦੇ ਅਰਥ ਸਮਝਣ ਜੋਗ ਹੋ ਜਾਣਗੇ। ਤਾਂ ਤੇ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਚਰਚਾ ਹੀ ਕਲਯਾਣਕਾਰੀ ਹੰ । One day, in the sangat, Bhai Dhurgaahee and Bhandaaree, and other Sikhs gave a supplication to the Master. “Guru’s Sikhs, reading Guru’s bani, continue to discuss it at length, someone interprets it one way and someone else another. If you could write down the meanings or dictate an explanatory book; 1 We would (all) understand (GurBani) with ease; 2 All opposing opinions (arguements) would be eliminated.” Guru replied, “My Sikh brothers! Once this same question was asked by Sikhs to our elder, Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji. He gave this answer: the meanings of the words of Guru Nanak (keeper of highest wisdom), are beyond count. No one exists with the ability to give its (GurBani’s) complete meanings. This bani is the fulfiller of all wishes. It will give fruit (understanding, blessings) based on the Sikhs (readers) intelligence and desires (personal). The meanings or explanatory book (on GurBani) will always remain on the tongue (mind) of the Sikhs. There can never be an explanatory book on these words (GurBani). Because an explanatory book can only exist, for those words (of wisdom) which are regulated by the rules of grammar. In fact, the word (GurBani) is the independant and experiential form of the creator. Just like the bashed and filtered rice ends up sparkling, in the same way, GurSikhs who endlessly discuss (GurBani) will eventually become empowered to understand the meanings (of GurBani). THAT IS WHY IT IS ONLY THE DEEP DISCUSSION OF GURBANI WHICH IS AUSPICIOUS / WORTHY OF RESPECT.

Awesome thanks for input, I’ll take further look at the text tonight

Thanks for the mahankosh. What do you think about a possible alternative translation?

I traced the sakhi to the Suraj Prakash, its on page 304 - it says in the beginning you should stay away from two of them http://www.ik13.com/PDFS/Raas5.pdf

Or should there be commas inbetween such that Gian is not related to the other two words: ਗਿਆਨੁ, ਗੋਸਟਿ, ਚਰਚਾ, ਸਦਾ ਅਨਹਦਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਉਠੇ ਧੁਨਕਾਰਾ। [In the city of Kartarpur] wisdom was passed [from the Guru to his Sikhs], spiritual sermons were held and discussions took place, all the while melodies of unstruck sound were heard at all times.

I skimmed some of Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha's technical books on prosody and chands some years ago, I remember thinking they were absolutely amazing

Awesome! Do you have a source for this sakhi?

If using Bhagatsingh's meaning of the word, it could be: ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੋਸਟਿ ਚਰਚਾ ਸਦਾ ਅਨਹਦਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਉਠੇ ਧੁਨਕਾਰਾ। [In the city of Kartarpur] the wisdom [of bani] was passed [to the sangat] in gatherings through discussions, all the while melodies of unstruck sound were heard at all times.

So how would you make a more accurate translation of the below line. The first is the one found on sikhitothemax.. The second is my attempt to make it more precise, especially the second verse on goshti and charcha ਬਾਣੀ ਮੁਖਹੁ ਉਚਾਰੀਐ ਹੁਇ ਰੁਸਨਾਈ ਮਿਟੈ ਅੰਧਿਆਰਾ। When Baba uttered hymns, the light would spread and darkness dispell. ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੋਸਟਿ ਚਰਚਾ ਸਦਾ ਅਨਹਦਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਉਠੇ ਧੁਨਕਾਰਾ। Discussions for the sake of knowledge and the melodies of unstruck sound were ever heard there. Alternative translation: ਬਾਣੀ ਮੁਖਹੁ ਉਚਾਰੀਐ ਹੁਇ ਰੁਸਨਾਈ ਮਿਟੈ ਅੰਧਿਆਰਾ। The light dispelled the darkness when Baba Nanak uttered bani from his blessed mouth, ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੋਸਟਿ ਚਰਚਾ ਸਦਾ ਅਨਹਦਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਉਠੇ ਧੁਨਕਾਰਾ। [In the city of Kartarpur] the wisdom/knowledge [of bani] was passed [to the sangat] through question and answer sessions and discussions, all the while melodies of unstruck sound were heard at all times. I have a feeling "Discussions for the sake of knowledge" is too simplistic a translation of this verse. I have a feeling Bhai Sahib is trying to show the amount of activities that took place, - thats why i'm asking what is the difference between goshti and charcha..