das

Please let me ask you (paapiman), how high you've reached in the process of salvation? You're a Sikh. On what basis, you're claiming that Sikhism is the fastest lane to salvation?

What a disgrace Crystal. Where did Guru Ji instructed to be bad mouth for girls. Have some shame, you were talking to a female member (Sukrit Kaur) and using such a bad language. Very sad. If you want to debate, first learn to be Human. Isn't Nimrata the first requirement to be on the path of Sikhism?? One should be level minded to know when, where and how to do Jhatka..........Fools are bound to give Jhatka/sudden-stock to their own necks.......so, beware, otherwise Karmas will give a proper Jhatka. I am NOT sure why Admins have not edited/deleted this crystal's degrading posts.

In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, there are numerous things mentioned: ranging from micro (cell stuff) to macro (universe level). All of these references are made to derive a point or to help in our understanding of some Spiritual concept. e.g type of bhoots, bodies, chakra, planets, astrology, avatars, medical knowledge etc .etc. But that doesn't mean that you've to know about each and everything. You're missing the whole point here: In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, all these things are there to derive a point about the Permanent Truth (The God). In other words, God, Soul, Mind are the most referenced concepts in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, so first try to find the following answers and then move on to some other: What is Permanent?Difference between Soul and Mind?Working of Mind: Karma, Senses etc.?How to work towards God - Meditation etc.The above mentioned concepts are the mostly talked about concepts in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So, why not first grasp them firmly and not just the face value? It's understandable that out of curiosity, one wants to know about everything mentioned in Guru Ji; but if misses the main point around which everything is defined then it is NOT worthwhile. But even if you want to know about certain things, then the following are various options in descending order (Best at top): BEST: Search within; use Meditation to get answers; or offer genuine prayer to get answers.NEXT BEST: Offer prayer to Guru Ji to lead you to proper sources: books etc.Search in books, lectures, kathas, internet (not so best to find the reliable knowledge) to find the answers. i.e work-hard.If you cannot find the information or have some question, then ask someone. Still it is best to ask the Guru.The worst option is: Not doing any hard work to acquire or understand the subject and just asking online. Knowledge cannot be understood by merely reading. Secondly, if deep topics are offered, one cannot appreciate/understand the depth because one is not aware of the depth of topic at hand. e.g One cannot be expected to estimate the depth of well in the darkness; the depth can only be measured by actually descending into the well. It's hard to explain, bottom line is: Work-hard in the right direction and start by praying to Guru Ji. None can attain anything without hard work.

I've listened to this discourse in the past, but it's so refreshing to hear it again. Anyone who is interested in real Meditation, tips, how, where, or anything related to Meditation; please listen to this discourse. It's very good. Its long, but its better to argue over unimportant topics:

I don't know why but it sounds like you're just on the run to prove that every religion is false or incomplete. I might be wrong but that's the impression I got from your messages. But anyways, as I've explained in my first post, you're bound to find different interpretations of the same concept depending upon to which group the responder belongs to. If your intention is to study new language, then would you start from lesson-1 OR last-lesson? I think one would start from Lesson-1; therefore I again suggest you to study Guru Granth Sahib Ji where you won't find any reference to these contradictions. I am NOT suggesting that if you read Guru Granth Sahib Ji, you will understand why women can't be Panj payaras. I'm merely suggesting to understand some Spiritual truths for the betterment of your life. Moreover, can I ask, what's the issue with the religion you're born in? Your religion might be affected with the same contradictions which won't be present if you seriously study it. In other words, it would be easier for you to understand your own birth religion instead of finding it somewhere else. The truth could be found where it is: Within. Please let us know your religion and we might be able to provide some good translations of that religion which might help you. e.g If a seed is planted in one pot and then it is pulled from that soil and cleaned of its soil and eventually planted it in another pot; then the survivability of that plant is decreased to many folds. In other words, it is best possible environment for the plant if it kept in its root soil. But if your intention is something else, then please "lage-raho"......i.e keep throwing water at sky.

I said that I won't post any posts for this particular thread. But I'm breaking that not for the sake of debating but just as information: If paapiman you're really after the real information, then you can (or anyone can) find the truth from first hand information, then he/she could contact "Ishwar Puri" ( http://ishwarpuri.org/contact/ ); Ishwar Puri is last known physical person known to be alive whose Spiritual Guru was Sant Sawan Singh.

If you're genuinely looking for some Spiritual information for peace or willing to investigate the nature of Self, then I would suggest you the following. Otherwise, if your sole intention is to debate or prove your point or just fun then please carry on as you wish. The good place to start learning about the real Sikhism is from "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji". It is a Sikh scripture that is the 11th Guru of Sikhs, IT was given the authority/Guruship by the 10th Sikh Guru. Sikhs have 10 Gurus and it was only during the 10th Guru's time that a formal religion/group (Khalsa) was established by giving them a distinct identity because of that time's need. Before the 10th Guru, they were normally called Sikhs but with no distinct indentiy. The 10th Guru chose not to include his writtings in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. What I want to convey is: If you want to study something, then starting from a more gross form is not a good idea. So, again I suggest reading the source instead of just getting confused with personalized thinking of everyone around you. The reason is I say this because even in Sikhs there are different people who are not good spiritually, they are just like everyone else. Recently Sikhs (like any other religion) have gone towards "Radical Interpretation" of their history and therefore going down the self-created-drain of darkness where there is always quarrel between this-vs-that. They just don't ever try to analyze the writings in Guru Granth Sahib Ji and just solely goes with interpretations that follows their point of view instead of the other way around. You could see the following different groups within Sikhs these days. Group-1: This is the most popular and could easily be traced on Internet. Religious youth are its main force. This group treats the history (after 1699 - Khalsa creation) as the sole indicator. This group claims that their Guru is Guru Granth Sahib Ji but they do not bother to seriously analyze the writing of Guru Granth Sahib Ji in the light in which it is written. They are so deeply concerned with the history after the creation of Khalsa (post 1699 or 1708) that they fail to see the history which took place between 1469 and 1699. They don't realize that they have neglected the history of 10 Gurus (around 230 years) and have just opted for the history of 10th Guru's last 9-10 years. They are just like other religious people who believe that their religion is the best.Group-2: This group mostly includes Scholars who have studied Guru Granth Sahib Ji deepy but from materialistic point of view. They are far better than the first group as they give importance to both the history periods. But their interpretation is more like Black-and-White world. They fail to see that the world where we live is domain of Laws and the teachings in Guru Granth Sahib Ji did not ask them to revolt against the Laws or reject the Laws. The teachings are merely pointing what is temporary vs what is permanent and how to get to the permanent while living in this world. But still they are far better than the first group.Group-3: Then comes a group who is a mixture of Group-1 and Group-2; sometimes they took one side and then sometimes took side of another group; not because they want to but they themselves are confused. Without the real Spiritual knowledge, they say things as per Group-2 but then eventually they will switch to Group-1.Group-4: This is the group who mostly have read the English transalations of Guru Granth Sahib Ji but not in the proper light. They try to reject all the rituals, traditions without understanding the real nature of this world. They are kind of more aggresive form of Group-2. They try to understand the higher concepts by dragging the higher concepts to their level of thinking instead of the other way around. They are always fighting with Group-1.Group-5: They are the rarest and rarely available on Internet. They do understand the real nature of this Universe and do understand that: "A person cannot live without performing the karmas. i.e one has to pick something out of the choices provided by the immediate environment.". They do see the core teachings of core Guru Granth Sahib Ji in proper light and therefore understand the purpose of Guru Granth Sahib Ji is to show us the proper path while living in this universe of Laws:Essence/Juice of all Scriptures (including Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji): The following are the core ideas of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji: Purity of Mind (Karma): This is the first requirement on spiritual path. Purity of mind is achieved by staying away from filthy and investing in good, honest actions. Why there is a need to pure the mind, and how the impure mind is hindrance to real happiness, and how to purify the mind etc. all these topics are including in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.Concentration of Mind (Upsana): When mind is purified, then the desire for concentration arises in mind. One-pointedness of Mind is achieved through worship with full concentration so that mind does not create ripples (thoughts) to disturb us. The concentration is achieved by devotion and worship. What is Concentration, why it is important, uses/mis-uses of concentration, importance of concentration, and how to achieve one - all these topics could be found in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.Knowledge (Gyan): When the search of Self is done with purity and concentration of mind, one realises that the same God that once appeared as separate is one's own; in fact the entire universe appears to be one. There are various topics which could give one the real knowledge but in order to understand the real knowledge, one needs to be expert in the first 2 points and with the Kirpa of Guru (again explained in Guru Granth Sahib Ji). Practically, the above mentioned juice could be obtained by (explained in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) Bodily Cleanliness (Isnan),Charity: Do charity to needy i.e Charity of money, goods, knowledge, time etc.Meditation

Very narrow and handicap (dependent on someone else) thinking. Anyways, I would like if some other member of sangat could hear the 1 minute clip and verify what name he mentioned. Moreover, as I have already said what I had, so this is my last post on this particular topic.

First learn the difference between Fact vs Belief (based upon someone else non-experience). May be I'm hard of hearing, but it sounds like in the video he is talking about "Babu Kaul Singh".......but in any case, here are some real facts: Sawan Singh Grewal's life duration is: 1858–1948 and Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale's life duration is: 1947 – 1984 Does it point you something? Do you really think he is talking about someone whom he never met? Either the video is not talking about "Sawan Singh" or Jarnail Singh is ill-informed by some of his followers. I guess the life duration of the two persons mentions a great thing. Rest is upto you; after-all its your free-will, do whatever you want.

First of all, I'm NOT a follower of Radhaswami. It's very irresponsible paapiman. Did you listen to the video clip you've posted? "Sawan Grewal" name is nowhere mentioned in the clip; so how you got this name? It's really very sad and shameful on your part; one should NOT post any anything online without verifying the facts. "Sawan Singh Grewal (1858–1948)" was one of the first person who settled in Beas. He was opposed to the formation of separate Mat named as Radhasoami; The Radhasoami name originated from Agra circle. I'm NOT saying that someone somewhere under somebrand cannot do as claimed in the video but that does NOT mean that you can pull everyone under the same umbrella. There are some cracks who are doing that. At this present times, there are many many cases where the person belonged to previous Rara-Sahib samparda, Nanaksar samparda but they are indulged in Ego-ist behaviours; some are even continuing the samparda for the money things. Does it mean that you can drag the real Saints under the same tag? It always happen that the real sampardas/groups preach something but later on those teachings are packed in box and sold. So, then who is the culprit? Think about it. There is NO problem in pointing out the real issues, but these days youth with this internet are so careless that they do not care about the real truth. They just post whatever based upon their very limited point of view and without really looking for the truth. Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji Rara Sahib wale used to say that the Nindea is defined as: Spreading the news for which you did not know if it is true or not (i.e which you have not heard/seen with your own ears/eyes).

see next post

....do as you believe.

That is the issue. We (followers of any particular faith) claim that our faith is the best and most potent and the rest of faiths/groups are somewhat less. I guess everything should co-exist keeping in mind that everyone has different Spiritual needs as they are on different stages. In other words, one should NOT indulge in Mine-vs-Other faith or More-Potent-vs-Not-Potent..............or say there are many persons, Saints, Scriptures that are doing their jobs (to brings the departed Souls back) to Source and they are doing their duty as per the needs. So, just be sure to follow your faith and respect other faith thinking that your faith's leader/Guru may come in un-recognizable another form (even in the group that you're against) depending upon the needs.

and please include me in that list. It's point of view from broader sense of what we're doing here in this world. Yes, it seems like from the posts (that you've posted) and from introspection of mine side that both of us were/are doing worthless. We're just doing whatever we've been scripted to do, may be sometimes doing some small good but majorly we're wasting our lives. In other words, we have been doing what the circumstances/environment/thinking are forcing us to do. So, explain to me: Where is the "I" who is dong good? My genuine request to you is come out of the false illusion that you're doing something special (and as always me included). Think about it: Aren't you paid for your Army services? So, how you're helping? Identify the real enjoyer here.Aren't you paid for your services to Gurudwara Committee with a BIG payout? And before you reply with "I don't have any penny from Gurudwara funds", let me clear that I'm talking of Ego as reward.I'm also paid VERY heavily when I post some thing OR help someone. In the case of "posts" I DO look for "likes" to feel good, so I'm feeding my Ego. And in case of helping someone medically, again I DO look for appreciation. Again feeding my Ego. So, in order words, I'm NOT doing good to help someone. I'm just doing that because "I" like it, "I" feel happy/satisfied; and again when I feel satisfied, only when my EGO is boosted (however hidden it may be).The same goes for "THE YOU", my friend. e.g If a parrot closes his eyes on seeing the cat thinking that as he cannot see cat, so cat cannot see him. Is it worth? NO, because as cat can see the parrot and therefore can eat him. It does not matter if parrot's eyes are closed or not. Same way, it does NOT matter if we close our eyes towards our internal hidden issues or false illusions; at-last we're bound to loose if we don't do anything to get rid of the real core issues.

Isn't your EGO also working through your messages? Think about it? I'm NOT taking sides with you or chatanga but you read your messages. And please stop these arguments on this topic and kindly use your debating powers somewhere else (open a new topic or thread). My personal thinking is that you're trapped in your own world and don't want to come out of it. Just like a frog living in a well and refused to the presence of external world. (NO pun intended). The world is NOT about Man-vs-Woman and I know that you'll respond that you believe in equality and everyone else is not; but in reality you're just on the other-side (of the same coin). You claim to see beyond physical aspects (Man vs Woman) yet your messages give entirely different indication (i.e you're just the other side). Please channel your power to some good work where someone can be benefitted. I don't think being in Army, Emergency team volunteering, Debating, Practicing Sikh, part of Gurdwara committee, some limited experiences, OBE etc. has anything to do with helping people and Spiritually uplifting yourself along with other people. It sounds like these things are just proving an secret ego booster for you where you're not even aware of it. Welcome to this world of illusions!! Do something which would you help you AND the other person Spiritually and accept that there is NO guarantee that you're more pious/spiritual than the other person who you're debating with. You may or may not be more spiritual than the other, but debating while thinking that you're right and only you do see the whole truth is NOT the right way on this Spiritual path.

Does it mean that the Gurus (not just referring to Sikh Gurus, but in general the concept of Guru) practice partiality towards Mine creed vs Other creed? In other words, does it mean ALL religions (including Sikhism) DO have concepts: "Come to us and we'll save you; If you go with other then it's up to other Guru's potential and then we don't take care of you".........something like My-Crowd vs Other-Crowd?

The above mentioned Shabad is neither referring to eclipse nor is referring to Heart chakra. Here is the full shabad: ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਦੇਖਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਰਾਂਗਨਹਾਰਾ ॥ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਜੀਆ ਦੇਖਿ ਸਮਾਲੇ ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਸਰਕਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਮੇਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਾਂਗਿ ਘਣੌ ਅਤਿ ਰੂੜੌ ॥ ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਮਨਮੋਹਨੁ ਅਤਿ ਰਸ ਲਾਲ ਸਗੂੜੌ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਊਪਰਿ ਕੂਪੁ ਗਗਨ ਪਨਿਹਾਰੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਵਣਹਾਰਾ ॥ ਜਿਸ ਕੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਸੋ ਬਿਧਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਾ ॥੨॥ ਪਸਰੀ ਕਿਰਣਿ ਰਸਿ ਕਮਲ ਬਿਗਾਸੇ ਸਸਿ ਘਰਿ ਸੂਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਕਾਲੁ ਬਿਧੁੰਸਿ ਮਨਸਾ ਮਨਿ ਮਾਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੩॥ ਅਤਿ ਰਸਿ ਰੰਗਿ ਚਲੂਲੈ ਰਾਤੀ ਦੂਜਾ ਰੰਗੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਸਨਿ ਰਸਾਏ ਰਾਤੇ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਈ ॥੪॥੧੫॥ The shabad is referring to the process when "The Shabad" permanently resides in the Mind, then one tastes the real Amrit stored in the Crown Chakra. In other words, it is suggesting the last point in the journey to be outside of Time and Space. Crown Chakra is also known as the place of 1000 Suns which is so strong yet so calming that it (the light/ray) overtakes everything. The shabad has nowhere mentioned the Heart Chakra or Eclipse. Moreover, in reality Astronomy and Astrology are exactly the same Science (Macro/Micro/Effects) but recenty (around 16-17th century) when people started accepting more materialistic views, this Science was broken into 2 different streams: Astrology and Astronomy. It's the same way, these days there are Specialist Doctors for each organ and they just worry about their particular organ; they do NOT understand that each and every cell in this body is interrelated and interlinked and work as ONE BIG SYSTEM. Moreover, here are some clues to the play of 3 gunas and 5 elements in Space and Time: Seven is a clue for everything that happens in Time. 7 comes from 3+4 (3 gunas + 4 elements). i.e 7 Traditional planets; 7 Major Chakras; 7 Rishis, and so on.Twelve is a clue for all things that co-exist in space. 12 comes from 3*4 (play of 3 gunas with 4 basic elements in Space). These are the twelve basic points with which everything in space is connected. It is possible to find the right way by connecting the spatial relationship of everything that occurs upon the earth with twelve permanent points in space — the twelve signs of the Zodiac in the cosmos.And there is always certain relation between the numbers Seven and Twelve, and that this relation has something to do with time and space. Time is revealed according to the number Twelve.The above mentioned points are the core of Astrology. It's very easy to say but very hard to understand the play of 12*7=84. But at last, let me warm you that there are VERY RARE astrologers who fully understand Astrology and Astronomy in real sense but at the same time it does NOT mean that Sikhism is against Astrology. But do NOT try to find paid astrologers and do NOT try to look in Guru Granth Sahib Ji with the intention to find the reference to astrology and then proving that it is accepted in Sikhism. As I always say, this world is never Black-and-White. Rudolf Steiner has said this perfectly: "Humanity, is intimately connected to cosmic beings, who in turn are related to planets and stars. There is meaning in the cosmos." He rejected the Simplistic notion of the planets determining our lives and behaviour, he shows that as individuals, and with the guidance of spiritual beings, we choose an appropriate time of birth to match the destiny we are to live. In other words, when we reduce the systems (create Simplistic views separate from another system), then we are bound to fail and this is what is happening with Astrology these days (so-called Zodiac readings).

Does it mean that tenth Guru have established an institution which will give benefit to whosoever follows it (even on physical level) but will NOT give that kind of benefit to those who do not follow them? Isn't this like Christianity who says that whosoever follows Jesus Christ won't have to go to Hell because Jesus have paid for their sins? Actually, as per my understanding, there is some truth to what pappiman has mentioned. e.g A person has taken Khanda Da Amrit and then did not follow anything Spititually and ended up doing lot of bad karams. Then the thing is that: His/Her Guru will not allow that person to go to Hell or will not allow the beating along the path to Dharamraj but he/she has to pay for his/her bad deeds via human birth in bad environment (but still human birth with possibility of Spiritual growth). Sometimes, Guru DOES allow that person to go to Hell or force them to take birth in animal world but Guru will always cut short his animal births because he was follower of his faith. Bottom line is: Guru will lend HIS helping hand to the SOUL who has gone astray. Persons without Guru won't have that kind of cushion. There are various Sakhis portraying that: Sakhi-1: There was a Sikh of tenth Guru who was performing the duty of Parshad distribution in the sangat. One day, another Sikh of high Spiritual came to the Sangat to get parshad; he requested parshad in hurry but the dutyman said harshly "Why you're jumping like bear?" To this the other person picked the parshad from the ground and left. Now, when the dutyman left the world, he was born as bear. But after some time, the bear's life was cut short by GuruJi; thus displaying the power of Guru. Also, remember, each Avatar has its own Heaven and the persons worshiping Him as God cannot go beyond the realm of that demi-God. But some people take it too strictly saying that as they have taken Amrit, so they won't suffer and they are bound to get benefits. It's not that simple. Mind has to be purified before one can be with HIM, but at the same time the path to real God goes via Guru (and nothing else) and if you follow Guru, then you DO have some cushion because of it. Think it from another point of view: What's the use of Guru if HE cannot help the Soul who has done bad deeds under the effect of Maya. But at the same time, even Guru cannot go against the law of karma but HE knows how to go around the karma for the sake of his pupil's Soul. At last, it is not black and white and cannot be explained in words.

As per my belief (based upon Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji's audio deewan), "Waheguru" mantar was first uttered as "Satnaam Waheguru" by Nirankar Himself when Guru Nanak Dev Ji requested Him to give Him updesh during Guru Nanak Dev Ji's visit to Nirankar (when Guru Ji went to Vae river for 3 days). Nirankar then uttered the Moolmantar. Again, this is my belief and your belief might differ based upon the your choice of source. But in general, its best to believe that source which have actually travelled instead of the one who just visited the Map (via books, history, scriptures) and not the real thing. If you want to hear the deewan, then here is the link: It starts from around: 30.00 till 48.00: http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/01_Puratan_Katha/Sant_Ishar_Singh_(Rara_Sahib_wale)/051-100/070--Sant.Isher.Singh.(Rara.Sahib.wale)--Sri.Guru.Nanak.Dev.Ji.da.Sachkhand.Jana.mp3

Please allow me to ask everyone on this topic this question: Have any of you has any direct experience of Negative entities? Don't offer me any theory, if you happen to have any practical experience then please post. The powerful ghosts (negative entities) are not easy to get rid of.Some times, it is important to get the help of higher Spiritual beings (Brahmgyanis/Sants) because they really know the root cause (karma relationship with associated person) and at the same time know the formula to get rid of that. Don't expect Love is going to help; even Path done without the formula (technique) will help only to some extent. Sometimes doing Path alone would lead you to higher Spiritual being who could really sort out the problem. So, Path and Prayers are must.Negative entities are attracted (via subtle smell) to persons who consume meat, liquor, and/or visit prostitutes, bad intentions etc........The reason is negative entities are more attracted to lower vibrations (smell being the lowest related to Earth component).Meeting a lost soul in immediate Astral world is NOT equivalent to real Ghosts with real powers.Menstruation blood has real Life force along with Signature which could be used for Negative reason. In ancient times (even these days) menstruation blood is used in rituals for some specific purposes (not so for positive). And it is nothing to do with pure/impure; it's about the life force. Same goes for Hairs, Salvia, and nails etc......if one can acquire any of these for another person, then it's very easy to do Black Tantar........even Metaphysics does this via: Radionics, Bio-Photon analyzer and count less other techniques. At last, Evil eye is NOT equivalent to Ghost, those are different things. Secondly, in our immediate environment, there are lot of Negative as well as Positive entities but Spritual Science Foundation has exaggerated this so much that you'll start thinking about them everyday, which will lead you to further attract negative forces because you're attracting them by thinking about them. Best option is continue the Meditation path; there are lot of things in this world and it is NOT necessary for us to know everything about them.

All of the above mentioned keywords are the names of the powers of Maya/Illusion. These powers are the sole reason for our sufferings. Powers of Maya/Illusion Mal/Filth: It's job is to show something different. Due to previous and this birth's bad deeds Mind gets attracted to bad deeds and questions the existence of GOD. It creates Rag-Dvesh (attachment, and hatred) towards certain things. In order words, when water is mixed with filth, we cannot see our face in water. i.e we cannot clearly see the reality. It is a power which introduces illusion. e.g this is world. Vikshape/Poison: It's responsibility is to create a change in the thing that Mal showed so that mind feels happiness or sadness. It is a power due to which different types of thoughts rise in Mind and gives sorrow. e.g Janam, maran, dukh, sukh etc. In other words, thoughts creates ripples in water and therefore, we cannot see ourselves in water. Because of these thoughts Mind never stay one-pointed. Avaran/Veil: It's responsibility is to hide the original thing. It is power which hides the original thing which is GOD. It does not allow us to see the reality.e.g- just like when someone puts a bucket upside down on lit candle, room which had light before is dark now because of bucket which is put upside down. In other words, when mirror is covered with curtain, then we cannot see ourselves. So, bottom line is: Avaran has hidden the truth (Atma/Soul) and Mal has showed this world and eventually Vikshape confirms this world is truth and creates happiness and sadness. How to Get Rid of Mal/Vikshape/Avaran Sants/Mahapurashs/Gurus have also shown us the way to get rid of these 3 powers: These are Karma, Upsana, and Gyan. Karma (Purity of Mind): The first power of Maya i.e Mal/Filth could be removed by Karma/Actions. Purity of mind is achieved by staying away from filthy deeds like alcohol, meat, someone else's woman or man, gambling, stealing, lying, betraying, bribery, etc. and by investing in good, honest actions. Be charitable, take bath at ambrosial hours to keep body and mind clean and pure, do positive selfless service (sewa), practice restraint in sex. Upsana/Worship (Concentration of Mind): The second power of Maya i.e Vikshape/Poison could be removed by Upsana. When mind is purified, then the desire for concentration arises in mind. One-pointedness of Mind is achieved through worship with full concentration so that mind does not create ripples (thoughts) to disturb us. The concentration is achieved by devotion and worship. It could also be achieved through Meditation/Simran. One should always concentrate on his/her Guru and do meditation of Gur-Mantar. Gyan (Knowledge): The last power of Maya i.e Avaran/Veil could be removed by Gyan (NOT the normal knowledge obtained from reading Scriptures, books etc.). It is the Brahmgyan given by the Guru only. When the search of Self is done with purity and concentration of mind, one realises that the same God that once appeared as separate is one's own; in fact the entire universe appears to be one. The scene and the witness both appear to be one. Duality completely disappears and only One prevails. It is Not possible to gain Gyan/Knowledge without Guru. But we do Not have to search for Guru because as per God's Law, Guru will appear itself once we have removed the first two powers of Maya i.e once our mind is pure and steady (one-pointed). ------------------------------------------- If you need more information on these topics, you might find the following topics related to Mal/Vikshape/Avaran helpful and in more detailed with examples: Why we cannot see God: http://satgur.net/Articles/Spiritual/19 Maya/Illusions and its Powers: http://satgur.net/Articles/Spiritual/20 Crux of All Religions: http://satgur.net/Articles/Spiritual/35

The 3 types of bhuds mentioned here are given as examples. There are not name centric, they are based off the examples. Please read below for more information. Sants/Mahapurashs always give examples so that a common man can understand. Namda (Thick bhud): If a needle is inserted into a cotton ball (namda) then a hole will be created but as soon as the needle is taken out, the hole will be gone. In other words, people who come to Spiritual discourses and during that time their Mind will have the effect but as soon as they leave the Spiritual discourse, they will revert back to their previous deeds forgetting what was taught to them in the Spiritual discourse. But they are still better than who never came to Spiritual discourses. They are just starters on Spiritual path. It could be understood as the "Dull headed".Chamra (Leather bhud): If a needle is inserted into leather (chamra), then a hole will be created and when the needle is taken out, the hole will still be present but it won't increase in size. In other words, people who come to Spiritual discourses and then they just do what was taught to them in the discourse but they do NOT take it further. It could be understood as "Intelligent".Talika (Oil): If a drop of oil (tail) is thrown on the water, then that one drop will spread out on the very large area of water. In other words, people who attend Spiritual discourse and then that Spiritual discourse acts as a starter for them and they start on the Spiritual path; just like the oil drop spread on the water. It could be understood as "Extra Intelligent".Sants/Mahapurash also present the above mentioned Bhuds/Bhagats/Adekare/Jegasu in many different ways: Kanist (Beginners) : Who is leaving bad karmas and moving into good karams.Madham (Medium): Who has moved further in Spiritual state and does Upasna/worship of God.Utam (Top level): Whose mind is one-pointed and only avaran dosh is left.Or Stone bhudi: If stone is put into water, then it would be wet when it is imersed in water. If it is pulled out of water and placed in sun, then it would become dry soon. First type of bhud.Sponge bhudi: If sponge/foam is imersed in water and then taken out. Then this sponge will retain the water for much longer than the stone but eventually it will become dry in sun.Gur bhudi: If Gur/Jaggery/Suger is imersed in water, then after some time it will be dissolved in water and then no-longer it could be separated from the water. This is 3rd kind of bhud.Basically all the above mentioned examples represent the same concept of 3 different types of Spiritual people. Similarly according to three types of bhuds, there are also 3 kinds of Bachan in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. In other words, all 3 types of people would find the bachans as per their state: Bhanak: For those (Namda bhud) who don't know about the reason for human birth and do bad deeds. Bhanak Bani instructs them to some to humanity.Roahak : For those (Chama bhud) who did path/worship, but still their mind does not become one-pointed. Rochak Bani defines the powers of Naam Simran, profits of doing Bhagati in order to uplift their curiosity.Yathrath: For those (Talika bhud) whose mind has become one-pointed. Yathrath Bani breaks the avaran dosh. i.e Yathrath Bani is the Brahmgyan but it could be perceived correctly only by Talika bhud people.

How many of us have studied this so-called Astrology? In short: - Astrology canNOT lead to higher Spiritual state. - But higher Spiritual state would bring the knowledge of Astrology. e.g My Mom has NOT studied a single line of astrology but with her Spiritual state, she sometimes could tell the other person's question by casually reading their hand or by merely looking into eyes. While I've studied many different so-called sciences including astrology but I usually checks those topics with her. Whosoever is saying that Astrology has no place in Sikhism have NOT understood the working of this place/universe. At the same time who are saying that Astrology is very good and one should very actively pursue for it are also wrong. Lucky has mentioned correctly that finding a genuine astrologer is very hard; but it doesn't mean there is none or there is nothing in astrology. Why Astrology is everywhere? Everything in this whole universe is based of the planets. 1. Moon is the nearest planet (in astrology it is considered as planet by major systems) to Earth and one could easily see the effect of Moon on Sea levels during full moon. And our body is around 80% water. Then tell me if Moon could produce tides in the sea, then why it cannot produce effects on human body. Be practical. 2. Even the Ida and Pingala are governed by Solar and Lunar forces. How could you say that Sikhism is against astrology. 3. All the body organs are governed by various planets. 4. First study astrology in full details and then you'll be start connecting the dots that sometimes you're doing the things as suggested by the plantary forces but you do it unconsciously (or say that your Guru/God are making you do that). 5. In other to move up the Spiritual levels, there are 7/Seven steps/bomika and that reference to seven planets. Remember seven planets, seven chakra, seven, this whole play is: Seven planets handle 12 zodiac signs (3 principles * 4 elements). Correct statement would be Sikhs do NOT pursue astrology for the selfish means. A real Sikh should be like "Bhana mitha mane (Whatever God wills is good and accepts it)". But keep in mind that all medicines (including homeopathic, accupressure, marma, allopathy, any other energtic medicines) are also going against HIS will (or say trying to fight against your own previous karma). Also, if someone is offering you the medicine, then by refusing the medicine you're also going against HIS will. It's not black and white, it is highly complex. At last, paapiman, it's NOT that simple that astrology is good and one should look for good astrologers. Firstly, there are so many branches of this science: Laal/Red Kitab, Tantar/Black book, Vedic Astrology, Chaldean astrology, Palmistry, Yantars, Seals and countless other branches. On top of that it is business these days, it is very rare to find the good astrologer. Also, keep in mind that if a astrologer is telling you any remedy involving any bad effect on anyone, then you'll be responsible for the associated karma. But certain things like: Bury coconut or some til/seasome seed with oil etc. are supposed to have good effect because basically you're providing the food to many insects etc. Again, most of the time, you're bound to fail because these days most of the astrologers are into business or using some forceful black remedies; both of which will be bad for you. Rest is upto you. There are some Shabads which could help you if you need some support: Sankat Mochan etc. The safest bet would be Prayer from Heart.

I think Void is the correct term if we are referring to Shunya (Sanskrit word). And yes, it is the knowledge of knowledge and pure awareness of awareness.......but NOT the knowledge itself. Bottom line is neither me nor you have attained that state, so we're just putting what we learnt (understood at our current stage) from various sources. and also the first article stated this thread is NOT talking about real "Void" because no Mantra could reach that region; that area "Shunya" is devoid of sound also.....that's the reason it is called Shunya/Void. Only the Soul who has gone beyond that area could help there, no matter what. I remember reading something along these lines in one of the books of Sant Waryam Singh Ji.

No, "Void" is NOT pure emptiness/awareness of awareness. And the real thing is beyond this Void. In-fact, this so-called Void is the last attempt of the Mind to deceive the progressing Soul. Many Saints have spoken about this area, which is very dangerous because nothing is going to help there, except the Guru. If one stuck in that region, then there won't be any further births but still stuck in the region. This is the area where the real Mind resides, this area is beyond the 3 qualities.......in other words, this is the area where Kaal resides (hidden away from all his creation - Kaal's creation); this area was given to Kaal by the God. Moreover, please do NOT start debating that this is Radhaswami thinking. I mentioned that because these things are discussed by many Saints/Brahmgyani but not much published information, is available; whereas the starters (not that they wanted to start) of Radhaswami path have published and discussed these concepts widely; so it's easier to locate the information. In-fact, its only the Radhaswamis that have explained the Anurag Sagar (by Bhagat Kabir) in great detail. Today's Radhaswamis are entirely different (just like the mainstream Sikhs). At last if I'm not wrong, then Sant Waryam Singh Jis books would have this information available.