laalsingh

Can anybody sugget difference between sikh and khalsa? If any non sikh starts reading SGGS and believing in it (he is not aware of rehatnama and Dasam Granth), would he be sikh? Does he has to carry 5Ks? Does he need to get baptize to become a sikh? Where is the line between sikh and khalsa? laal singh

amardeep you said (Bold letters) What is Guru Maharaj stating here? That people should'n bury dead corpses because they are spread all over? Are you familiar with the Quran verse "Dont they think We are able to collect their bones once again?" The shabad is not saying that people should'n bury dead corpses, it has to do with other deep issues of worship and people thinking that they should worship graves etc because they assume the dead men are still down there. I don't think it can be said better and clearer than Guruji said it. Guru Saheb specifically used the word 'musalmaan' here. Musalmaans give importance to their body after death hoping for Day of Resurrection. History has it even Aurangzeb tried to influence Gurus to change it (Read story of baba ram rai). For a sikh body after death is just ashes, nothing more. Importance is given to soul and your deeds while alive. The shabad is not saying that people should'n bury dead corpses Yes, nothing is wrong in burying the body (it is just ashes), but don't hope for it to rise up any day. Same can be seen in Baba Farid's saloks I am reposting here. ਫਰੀਦਾ ਇਟ ਸਿਰਾਣੇ ਭੁਇ ਸਵਣੁ ਕੀੜਾ ਲੜਿਓ ਮਾਸਿ ॥ Fareed, a stone will be your pillow, and the earth will be your bed. The worms shall eat into your flesh. ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਜੁਗ ਵਾਪਰੇ ਇਕਤੁ ਪਇਆ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੬੭॥ Countless ages will pass, and you will still be lying on one side. ||67|| That's exactly what Master is trying to say.There is no place in Gurmat for `Day of Resurrection`and `Mohamad being last messenger of God`. It is not muslim bashing as you commented earlier. We are discussing place of Islamic beliefs in Sikhsim. Back then it was normal to circumsice people as an act of commitment to Islam, but the invaders started to do it by force, so kabeer is saying that you do not become muslim by outer apperance only. and then goes on to say "what books have you read this in" because Quran does not sanctify external worship alone, but also internal.. What is this practice (sunnat) for body pleasure doing in God's religion? If you want to be a good muslim, sikhism offers better alternatives here without cutting your body, ਪੰਨਾ 140, ਸਤਰ 18 ਸਰਮ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਸੀਲੁ ਰੋਜਾ ਹੋਹੁ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ॥ Make modesty your circumcision, and good conduct your fast. In this way, you shall be a true Muslim. ਤਸਬੀ ਯਾਦਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਦਸ ਮਰਦਨੁ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਸੀਲੁ ਬੰਧਾਨਿ ਬਰਾ ॥੭॥ Let your meditation beads be the subjugation of the ten senses. Let good conduct and self-restraint be your circumcision. ||7|| Muslims have another way of practice different fro ours, but this does not mean that what they are doing is wrong as such.. In all the three shabads, we are talking about `muslim practises' and SGGS's view on these practices. Bhul Chuk Maaf Laal singh

amardeep, we will continue later today. laal singh.

You said but if you truly believe that the Gurus considered Islam to be a corrupt and false religion, please do proove it from Gurbani. then we'll debate it from there. I am not saying Guruji considred Islam as false religion, but neither Gurus acknowledged it. Here are some shabads from SGGS. Pg 466 (Burial) ਮਿਟੀ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਕੀ ਪੇੜੈ ਪਈ ਕੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਆਰ ॥ The clay of the Muslim's grave becomes clay for the potter's wheel. ਘੜਿ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਇਟਾ ਕੀਆ ਜਲਦੀ ਕਰੇ ਪੁਕਾਰ ॥ Pots and bricks are fashioned from it, and it cries out as it burns. ਜਲਿ ਜਲਿ ਰੋਵੈ ਬਪੁੜੀ ਝੜਿ ਝੜਿ ਪਵਹਿ ਅੰਗਿਆਰ ॥ The poor clay burns, burns and weeps, as the fiery coals fall upon it. ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਰਤੈ ਕਾਰਣੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ O Nanak, the Creator created the creation; the Creator Lord alone knows. ||2|| Pg 477 (Sunnat) ਸਕਤਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਦਉਗਾ ਭਾਈ ॥ Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny. ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥ If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. ||2|| ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕੀਏ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਅਉਰਤ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੀਐ ॥ If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman? ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥ She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. ||3|| ਛਾਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਰਾਮੁ ਭਜੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜੁਲਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੈ ਭਾਰੀ ॥ Give up your holy books, and remember the Lord, you fool, and stop oppressing others so badly. ਕਬੀਰੈ ਪਕਰੀ ਟੇਕ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਤੁਰਕ ਰਹੇ ਪਚਿਹਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੮॥ Kabeer has grasped hold of the Lord's Support, and the Muslims have utterly failed. ||4||8|| Pg 1136 (Fasting and Pilgrimage) ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ Bhairao, Fifth Mehl: ਵਰਤ ਨ ਰਹਉ ਨ ਮਹ ਰਮਦਾਨਾ ॥ I do not keep fasts, nor do I observe the month of Ramadaan. ਤਿਸੁ ਸੇਵੀ ਜੋ ਰਖੈ ਨਿਦਾਨਾ ॥੧॥ I serve only the One, who will protect me in the end. ||1|| ਏਕੁ ਗੁਸਾਈ ਅਲਹੁ ਮੇਰਾ ॥ The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah. ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੁਹਾਂ ਨੇਬੇਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ He administers justice to both Hindus and Muslims. ||1||Pause|| ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਉ ਨ ਤੀਰਥ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ I do not make pilgrimages to Mecca, nor do I worship at Hindu sacred shrines. ਏਕੋ ਸੇਵੀ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੨॥ I serve the One Lord, and not any other. ||2|| ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਉ ਨ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਉ ॥ I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers. ਏਕ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਲੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਉ ॥੩॥ I have taken the One Formless Lord into my heart; I humbly worship Him there. ||3|| More later. Bhul Chuk Maaf Laal Singh

amardeep, thanks for links. I am new to these `forums`. Most of the things I wanted to say were said by `BikramjiSingh`. You can`t compare life of Mohamad and Tenth Master. I must have to answer your concern about SGGS before leaving (No more Dasam Granth please) Your said How can he escape from falling into hell, when he does not remember the Prophet(rasul)? Page 319, Line 19 Rasul here is used for guru as Guru saheb must be talking to a muslim. If Guru Saheb wanted to say Mohamad , he would have said it. Practice within your heart the teachings of the Koran and the Bible; Page 1083, Line 17 Here are the full meaning of shabad from Granth Darpan, ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ਕਤੇਬ ਦਿਲ ਮਾਹਿ ਕਮਾਹੀ ॥ ਦਸ ਅਉਰਾਤ ਰਖਹੁ ਬਦ ਰਾਹੀ ॥ ਪੰਚ ਮਰਦ ਸਿਦਕਿ ਲੇ ਬਾਧਹੁ ਖੈਰਿ ਸਬੂਰੀ ਕਬੂਲ ਪਰਾ ॥੪॥ ਹੇ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦੇ ਬੰਦੇ! ਆਪਣੇ ਦਿਲ ਵਿਚ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦੀ ਯਾਦ ਦੀ ਕਮਾਈ ਕਰਦਾ ਰਹੁ-ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕੁਰਾਨ, ਹੈ ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕਤੇਬਾਂ ਦੀ ਤਾਲੀਮ। ਹੇ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦੇ ਬੰਦੇ! ਆਪਣੇ ਦਸ ਹੀ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਭੈੜੇ ਰਸਤੇ ਤੋਂ ਰੋਕ ਰੱਖ। ਸਿਦਕ ਦੀ ਮਦਦ ਨਾਲ ਪੰਜ ਕਾਮਾਦਿਕ ਸੂਰਮਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਫੜ ਕੇ ਬੰਨ੍ਹ ਰੱਖ। ਸੰਤੋਖ ਦੇ ਖ਼ੈਰ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ ਤੂੰ ਖ਼ੁਦਾ ਦੇ ਦਰ ਤੇ ਕਬੂਲ ਹੋ ਜਾਹਿਂਗਾ।੪। If Gurus had wanted to acknowledge Quran and Islam in full, they would have said it specifically. You would not have to find a sentence out of 1430 pages that way. Truth is Gurus never wanted it. Recently I heard an argument from one of Dera Sacha Sauda guy that word `Sirsa`is mentioned in Gurbani and it is prophecy by Guru Sahib. Gurujis wrote whole message in easiest possible language and I don`t see why they had to hide it. Bhul chuk Maaf. Lal singh

amardeep, I came across one articlie about Imam Sir Sultan Muhammad Shah by somody named Dr nahtu. In the article it was mentioned that Imam quoted one of the hadiths about Prophet Mohamad saying after his death, if the followers observed even 10%, 90% would be forgiven. I have many Ismaili friends and they are very liberal. Most of them are from East Africa. They don`t take Quran seriously, miss the fasts and live a western life style. Most of Ismailes from East Africa are of Gujrati backgrounds. Aside from Braham Prakash you mentioned above, they have have many other traditions close to hinduism and sikhism ( they call their gatherings satsang). Bhul Chuk Maaf.

amardeep, i am sikh (learner) like you. If you are a sikh, you should question before put your faith blindly into it. If you ask hindus about character of Krishna (he lied, he raped, he decieved as per hindu scriptures). Still they will say it was his Leela. Similarly if you ask muslims, they will start talking about contexts. Recently one of my cousin asked me why Guru Gobind Singh had more than one wife. You must have heard about a sakhi where Guru Gobind Singh moved his spear a little to pay respect to a Samadh and sikhs objected to it. I am not bashing Islam. But you should learn about truth. Don't say quran is word of God if your muslim friends convinced you. I am grateful to this discussion because I have to read Dasam Granth to find answers.Following is mention of Mohamad in Dasam Granth. Page 136-137 Mahaadoon tab Prabh upraajaa|| Arab des ko koono raajaa||26|| Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26. Tin bhoo ei panth upraajaa|| Ling binaa koone sabh raajaa|| He started a religion and circumcised all the kings. Sabh te apnaa naam(u) japaayo|| Sat(i) naam kaahoon na dri?aayo||27|| He caused all to utter his name and did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone.27. Sabh apniapniurjhaanaa|| Paarbhaanaa kaahoo na pachhaanaa|| Everyone placed his own interest first and foremost and did not comprehend the Supreme Brahman. Tap saadhat Har(i) moh(i) bulaayo|| Im kah(i) kai eh lok pathaayo||28|| When I was busy in the austere devotion, the Lord called me and sent me to this world with the following words.28. Mai apnaa sut tohe nivaajaa|| Panth prachur karbe kauh saajaa|| I have adopted you as my son and hath created you for the propagation of the path (Panth). Jaah(i) tahaan tai dharam(u) chalaae|| Kabudh(i) karan te lok hataae||29|| “You go therefore for the spread of Dharma (righteousness) and cause people to retrace their steps from evil actions”.29. I don't know about Dasam Granth's writings' authenticity, but I am posting just because you mentioned it. Here are some more quotes from Dasam Granth. ਮਹਾਦੀਨ ਕੇਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥੀ ਮਾਂਝ ਹੂਏ ॥ ਸਮੈ ਆਪਨੀ ਆਪਨੀ ਅੰਤ ਮੂਏ ॥੨੭॥ Mahaadoon kete prithoo maanjh hooe|| Samai aapanoo aapanoo ant mooe||27|| Many Muhammads had been on the earth. They were born and then died in their own times. 27. ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਯਤ ਹੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ਨ ਭੀਜਤ ਲਾਂਡ ਕਟਾਏ ॥੧੦੦॥ Prit(i) kare Prabh(u) paayat hai kripaal na bhoojat laan? kataae||100|| God can only be realized with LOVE, He is not pleased by circumcision.100. Your said f you read history of Islam you will see that Prophet Muhammad starting out peacefull, but then when the Qurash tribes started to persecute the muslims they started fighting back When Islam converted half of india with sword, do you think they ware still fighting back? When Qasim took over Sindh and sent his two daughters to Khalifah, was he still fighting back? There are more, later. You said If you read the Zafarnamah of Maharaj you will notice him writing that God helped him out of Chamkaur without help, maybe you should ask yourself why God would take side in indian tribal wars? Guruji also lost his two sons in battle. You can`t compare Tenth Master and Mohamad. Tenth Master accepted His will even after losing so many family members. That is His kudrat (nature). Lord was not taking sides. Gurmat does not believe in two entities, God and Satan. All is His kudrat and His only. Why we should ask Lord break his rules? Just pray him to give strength to live in his Will. You said Haumei is a bad thing, you are a student of life, so arrange your mind according to religion, instead of arranging religion according to your mind. That is the reason why you think quran is word of God. You are first assuming that quran is His word and then arranging your mind accordingly. You are a sikh, not some zombie like them. You should be asking questions and then decide. Muhammad was a prophet of God as stated in the writings of the Gurus, so that is why God favoured Muhammad in those wars, if you dont understand it, maybe you should try to read more in order to understand. SGGS never says that Mohamad is a prophet of God. If you says God favoured Mohamad, why God didn't favoured him from day one? Why he had to run from Mecca? If American are kicking iraqis' a** in Iraq, that means Lord is favouring them? No!!. That is how He works (in mysterious ways). God is telling Muhammad to fight back, we see the same thing in the letter of Guru Arjan Dev ji his son when he said you must prepare for warfare as the mughals are not favours of diplomacy. Difference is here father is telling son to fight back oppression. That is as per Sikhi. On the other hand God is speaking to Mohamad to slay his enemies (pagans specifically). We are totall ignoring other details such as how to distribute war booty including women etc. im sorry if i have hurted your feelings, but i think its time we as sikhs stop bashing other religions and their respective founders as this will only lead to great disasters Guru Nanak never hesitated to say truth. I am not saying it to bash Islam. I just want fellow sikh to take a look at another view before accepting quran as word of Allah. They are blinded by their hatred Go to any mosque in muslim world and see for yourself who is blinded by hatred. I know it is reaction to western world`s policies, but their religion sanctioned it and they always start it. Look at history for jihad,9-11 and more. I may be wrong, but convince me. Don`t forget to give quotes from SGGS. Bhul Chuk Maaf.

I found translation from Prof Sahib Singh most convincing. As I have tried to figure out 1. Dharam Khand: Sikh takes a break from his worldly tendencies and look at how Lord has created earth as a home for Dhrama and how all the souls come into life on earth and finally be judged accroding to their deeds(Pauri 34). 2. Gyan Khand: As sikh starts to think about all the ideas in Dharam Khand, he starts losing selfishness. He tries to get more knowledge (gyan). He starts visualizing in his eyes kudrat(nature) of Lord. He loses all superstitions. 3. Saram Khand: But getting knowledge is not everything. He needs to work hard(Saram) to apply his knowledge. Getting up early, meditate etc. This exercise will bring sikh to new heights of physical and mental awakening. 4. Karam Khand: With Lord's grace, sikh gets new strength. He is not attracted to worldy pleasures anymore. Sikh sees Him everywhere. Fear of death is gone. Sikh is always in chardikala. 5. Sach Khand: Sikh becomes one with Lord. On the other hand, as amardeep said, everybody could be right. Lord and his games are beyond human comprehension. I heard a preacher giving very good example few days back. If we look at sun, half the world says it is rising and other half says sun is setting. A few centuries back, these two statement looked self contradictory. But nowadays everybody knows both statements are true. Bhul Chuk Maaf.

amardeep, your comments are in normal letters and my replies in bold. There is nothing wrong with accepting Prophet Muhammad as the last prophet in the line of Abraham. Guru Gobind Singh has put "Muhammad" at the end of the lists of prophets and divine Guides in his Bachitar Natak,- maybe stating that he actually is the last prophet. The Gurus were not prophets, and never claimed to be. I never gave any refrence from hadiths, as I know muslims considers only quran as world of God. Similarly, I don't take Dasm Granth as my Guru. My Guru is SGGS only. Let us suppose for a moment you are right. Then what was all the fuss about? Why he sacrificed his father, mother, four sons? So please don't quote Dasam Granth. If you want to give quotes from Dasam Granth, then would you allow me give quotes from hadiths too. It will be messy. regarding your verses it is very important always to see the context of a verse before trying to interpret them. i knew that you would pull out surat al tauba so le me clear it for you, but first show you the danger of taking verses out of context: In Gurbani we can read the following by Guru Angad Mahraj: Chop off that head which does not bow to the Lord. Page 89, Line 2 Imagine a christian/muslim use this verse to proove that Sikhs are militant extremists with hatred towards non-believers.. would you find this fair? obviously not as we both know the hymn has to be interpreted in light of other hymns! Read it again, Guru Sahib are not telling sikhs to cut off heads of non sikhs or atheists. He is talking to reader of bani that your (reader's) head does not bow to Lord, it should be thrown away or chopped off ( Dar means throw away or 'useless stuff to be thrown away'). Another thing is SGGS is stating it in love of Lord. On the other hand, suras are showing hatred for non-believers. regarding the verses of Holy Quran that you posted, they all come from Surat al Tauba which is the 9. chapter of the Quran. If you see the beginning of this chapter you will see the context, as it is talking about the pagans that broke a peace agreement with Prophet Muhammad when they killed his men during peaceful times. The verse makes it clear that a war had broken out, and it is an act of self defence. If you say Quran is final and timeless message from God, why talking about contexts. I am not saying Quran is all bad There are lot of good things. Particularly during initial years of its writing. If these suras are being taken out of context, how do you know in rest of the Quran, what is in context and what is out of context? there is nothing wrong with defending yourself. If a military commander in iraq during an operation said "kill the iraqis" then it would sound normal as it is understood that the iraqis mentioned are the enemies, and not civilians. but of Tony Blair said this infront of a congretion of students in Uk, it would suddenly become a general statement concerning the killing of all iraqis, - babies, women, chldren etc.. But as per you Mohamad is a last prophet from God, not some US military commander. I am talking about Almighty God, who is sole creator of worlds, living being, plantations, you, me and everything. Who is timeless? And he sends his last message through an Arab fighting tribal wars? I don't think these instructions to kill enemy would be message from Almighty. Even if we take these suras in context, why God was taking sides in Arabic tribal wars? Charaterwise I don't think God has any reason to favour Mohamad. As per Hukam, not even an atom can move without Him, then why he has to instruct Mohamad to kill his enemies or tell a lie in case he felt threatened? I am aware people born in muslim families or who are listening to too much islamic propaganda, are convinced with their eyes closed that quran is word of God. They present all the arguments, use all their brainpower to invent new theories to prove it, but assuming right from the start that Quran is word from God. But a fellow sikh on sikhforum defending islam and mohamad with his eyes closed, it hurts. taqiya means to lie in order to save ones life. muslims are allowed to hide their religion if it can save their lives. It is also a free license from Allah to lie, deceive, manipulate for getting new converts.

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Remember Baba farid lived long before sikhism started. How can you expect him to pray in Sikh temple and recite gurbani? baba farid was born in muslim family and mosque is the only place at that time he will go for praying and namaz was the only prayer he was taught. I still believe lot of muslims can reach God by praying to him 5 times ,remembering Him all the time and staying in His raza. But I doubt taking Mohamad as last prophet and living a life like him will take them anywhere. Also since when waking, cleansing and praying to Almighty is against gurmat, but believing Mohamad as last prophet and saviour sure is against sikhi. And taking Mohamad as a role model is catastrophe. Praying is not patented by muslims. If you want you can pray to HIM 5 times. Here are verses you are looking for 1.Forced conversion Sura (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem ; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..." Sura (9:12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion" Brethern in religion here means fellow muslims. Sura (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." 2.Al taqiya (lying or conealing from unbelievers) "Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah." (Surah 3:2 Now please don't try to twist the words like lot of muslim apologists are doing. It means what it looks.

amardeep, I am here just replying to the fact that why Baba farid's bani is included in SGGS, even thoug he was a muslim? Do you want refrences from quran about forced conversion, manipulation and more? I am not sure if moderators here will allow it. If you are more educated about Islam, let me know how I am wrong? Problems is moderators will let anybody say anything about sikhi here, but saying anything about other religions is not permitted (even if it's true).

I was going through posts. I know it is an old post, but if anybody says baba farid was muslim, tell him to read his writings in SGGS. Baba farid did not show any hope for judgement day. He did not mention Mohammad. Here is one of the writings. ਫਰੀਦਾ ਇਟ ਸਿਰਾਣੇ ਭੁਇ ਸਵਣੁ ਕੀੜਾ ਲੜਿਓ ਮਾਸਿ ॥ Fareed, a stone will be your pillow, and the earth will be your bed. The worms shall eat into your flesh. ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਜੁਗ ਵਾਪਰੇ ਇਕਤੁ ਪਇਆ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੬੭॥ Countless ages will pass, and you will still be lying on one side. ||67|| Whole bani by Baba Farid is written in affection of God. Everything he said was as per Gurmat. Islam on the other hand is based on forced conversions, manipulation, blackmail (hell, heaven) and I will stop right here (Just read life history of their prophet) .