Jagroop Singh

Gurfateh same story here...nice to see someone else went through the same thing Gurfateh

Gurfateh writings such as this are very interesting but they don't hold water - read Gurbani and you will find the truth to lay this matter to rest. many such as the Ahmadiyah Sect have tried to prove that Sikhs are Muslims. i.e. the prophet Muhammad is central to the Islamic concept e.g. Messenger of God, Slave of God so hence follow his example and the words transmitted through him to attain a heavenly abode. so the question is, why is he mentioned so little within the Guru Granth Sahib? surely if pur Gurus were saying they were muslim they would not then say: "Neither do i follow the muslim ways nor the hindu ways..." also, the Quran is accepted as the untainted word of God and is the central pillar of all Muslims regardless of interfactional differences. yet, here is what Guru says - bear in mind he is not saying that the teaqchings are false; he is saying that he has come to God's door and no-one elses. 10th Nanak says in Rahirass Sahib: "...QURAN talk of much but i do not acknowledge them [it]...this narration is not through my mouth but has been spoken through your blessing" in Dohra, 10th Nanak then pretty much gives us the reasons for these very direct words: thats the Guru's word. "after leaving ALL OTHER DOORS (modes of salvation/living), i have come to yours, please protect my honour because Gobind is your slave" if someone wishes to be a Sikh heres the equation: Guru + SandhSangat + Sikh = Gursikh Relationship Gurusikh relationship = the basis by which one may realise and become part of The One. without elaborating upon Islam, its safe to say that this concept is very different to the Muslim concept of salvation. Gurfateh

Gurfateh its all good... the lovely classical strings... and the rainsabai 'it'll keep you awake and buzzing for over 10 hours' style... Gurfateh

Gurfateh here's another singh's argument which has been taken from: <http://www.surbut-khalsa.com/11.columns/The%20man%20in%20blue/65-03.htm> Gurfateh ---------------------------- The Sikh Identity (1) From the Sikh Reht Maryada : Section One, Chapter 1 The definition of Sikh, Article I Any human being who faithfully believes in One Immortal Being, Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Dev to Guru Gobind Singh, The Guru Granth Sahib, The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh According to the Reht Maryada a Sikh is someone who beliefs in the teachings of Guru, and applies these in her / his life. There are no cultural or geographical references, no reference to being a Sikh because you are a Panjabi, or because your parents were Sikhs. There is an ongoing discussion in the UK about the Sikh Identity. We are campaigning to get Sikhs monitored as a separate ethnic category. The Sikh ethnic category in the UK is based on the ruling of the Law Lords in the Mandla case. And I am in favour of this ethnic monitoring. In ethnic monitoring the questions asked is : how do you perceive yourself ? There are people who see themselves as Sikhs, but who are not Sikhs according to the Reht. Other people who are Sikhs according to the Reht, do not feel comfortable with the idea of a Sikh ethnic group, and will not record themselves as such. The ruling in the Mandla Case sees Sikhs as an ethnic group, not on racial grounds, but from the cultural point of view. The Law Lords start with two criteria which are necessary to be regarded as a 'cultural' ethnic group : (1) a long shared history, of which the group is conscious as distinguishing it from other groups, and the memory of which it keeps alive; (2) a cultural tradition of its own, including family and social customs and manners, often but not necessarily associated with religious observance. The shared history, which is mentioned, is our rich Sikh history since 1469, not just in Panjab but also in North America, Europe, Middle East, South East Asia and East Africa. Sikh history is being made all over the world right now. The Sikh cultural tradition is a more difficult subject. If we just look at culture as things that 'Sikhs' do, you might end up including honour killings as part of 'Sikh' culture, as there are 'Sikhs', who think their honour is more important than Guru's teachings. We will continue this discussion next week.

Gurfateh many sikhs/sikh groups in the uk have been campaigning for seperate ethnic monitoring. the reasons as well as support for this are clearly laid out in the following info i've pasted from: <http://www.british-sikh-fed.org.uk/EthnicGroup.html> some of the the benefits are: - levels of discrimination becoming detectable. - resources will be more accurately allocated considering the size and nature of the sikh community. - perhaps the sikh people will have a louder voice when it comes to human rights abuses and other political issues which affect them. Gurfateh ------------------------------------- British Sikh Federation British Sikhs should be classified as a separate Ethnic Group The BSF is urging Prime Minister Tony Blair to implement his commitment by providing equality of opportunity in the following areas: - Include a separate ethnic group monitoring category of Sikh in the 2001 Census; Include British Asian languages, in addition to just Gaelic languages, in the 2001 Census. The Prime Minister has been asked to avoid the bureaucratic conservatism of the past, and to provide equality of opportunity. He should honour the commitment that was given on 28 September 1999 at the Bournemouth Labour Party Conference with action on the above 2 items, and not to let it just be political rhetoric. After all, British Asians have grown up in this country, been to the same schools, colleges, and universities as the Prime Minister, and deserve to be given equality of opportunity as well. Other political parties recognise and accept that British Sikhs should be given equality of opportunity, and have a separate ethnic group monitoring category. Many Labour MPs and MEPs have written to the relevant Minister in support, e.g. Alan Donnelly MEP (Labour MEPs Leader), Dennis Turner MP, Bruce George MP, etc. All the other leading political parties have given their support, e.g. Richard Allan (Liberal Democrat Party), William Hague (Conservative Party), Edward McMillan-Scott (Conservative MEPs Chairman), Winfred Ewing (Scottish National Party), Dayfdd Wigley (Plaid Cymru) The following are just a few of the supporting letters :- David Martin MEP, Labour, Vice President of the European Parliament, letter to Minister: " I respectfully urge you to consider the case for making Sikhs a separate ethnic group category. Such a move would be in line with recent House of Lords court decisions. I believe the Sikh community in Britain have a strong case for such monitoring and I am sure revised categories can be put in place for the next Census in this regard." Alan Donnelly MEP, Leader of Labour MEPs "I do fully understand your concerns and hope that my action can help in some way towards the British Sikh Community having a separate ethnic monitoring category." William Hague MP, Leader of the Conservative Party : "We consider Sikhs to be a separate ethnic group and would support a revision of categories used for the next Census to reflect this." Edward McMillan-Scott MEP, Chairman of Conservative MEPs "I am happy to confirm my support for Britain’s Sikh Community to be separately identified in ethnic monitoring." John Stevens MEP, Conservative Party : "I thoroughly agree with the comments you make and with the House of Lords court decision that Sikhs are an ethnic group which should have a monitoring category of its own." Richard Allan MP, Liberal Democrat Spokesperson on Community Relations : "… which I believe justifies the inclusion of Sikhs as a separate ethnic group, a view upheld by The House of Lords. The British Sikh Community is a population of about 600,000 and merit recognition of their ethnic status." Robin Teverson MEP, Liberal Democrat, letter to Minister : "I am persuaded that they have a strong case, the details of which I am sure you are already aware, for the creation of such a category, and that, given this background, their numbers alone warrant their recognition as a separate ethnic minority." DrWinifred Ewing MEP, President Scottish Nationalist Party (SNP) : "I have supported your cause consistently" Dafydd Wigley MP, President of Plaid Cymru (Welsh Nationalists Party) : "I personally believe that the most appropriate way of pressing the issue is to persuade the Government Minister to include the changes in the next Census. That would then lead to local authorities and other bodies taking note of the matter." The highest court in the country, House of Lords, has accepted that Sikhs are an ethnic group, on the basis of ethnic origins based on a common geographical origin or descent, a common language, a common literature, a long shared history, a separate identity distinguished from other groups, a separate alphabet, historical political sovereignty, etc. The House of Lords clearly rejected that Sikhs were just a religious group, but held that Sikhs were also an ethnic group. Some 1.5 million Sikh officers and soldiers served to defend Great Britain during both World Wars, and helped to liberate European, African, and Asian countries; some 83,005 Sikhs gave up their lives, whilst 109,045 were wounded. Many Sikhs were awarded Victoria Crosses for their bravery during both World Wars. We made the highest contribution of all the ethnic minority groups now settled in the UK. The 600,000 British Sikh Community is larger than many of the other monitored groups and deserves to be fairly treated, e.g. the 1991 Census figures give Black-African (212,000), Other Black (178,000), Pakistani (477,000), Bangladeshi (163,000), Chinese (157,000). This helps them to get jobs, promotions, and service delivery since they are monitored as separate ethnic groups. The British Sikh Community also needs to be monitored as a separate ethnic group, since this effects our jobs, promotions, and service delivery by Government departments and employers. The British Sikh Community can be easily monitored as an ethnic group, and responsible organisations have done so, e.g. Hertfordshire County Council, West Midlands Police, South Bucks (near Slough) Council, British Energy, and Birmingham City Council for delivery of services We need to have a separate ethnic group category since it is used by employers for monitoring and job setting targets; employers do not use religious categories for such purposes. The British Sikh Community cannot accept that we should have to write out our ethnic identity under the "other" box, whilst other smaller ethnic groups have their own unique boxes. More than half of the British Sikh Community have been born or have grown up in the UK, and approx. 80% of Sikhs settled in the UK have British nationality instead of Indian nationality, and this proportion is increasing all the time. A language is the soul of the community, and British Asian languages should not be wiped out through assimilation; we do not want to experience having our languages wiped out, as happened with the Welsh, Gaelic, and Celtic languages previously. Special efforts are now being made for Welsh, Gaelic, and Celtic languages (see BBC 1 Ceefax, 8 June 99), and the same should be done for British Asian languages. One of the first steps is to include our Asian languages in the 2001 Census. With regard to Gaelic languages. ex-BBC Director Alasdair Milne is to head a task force to look at the feasibility of a Gaelic TV channel. The new Scottish Parliament’s deputy Minister for the Highlands and Islands and Gaelic, Alasdair Morrison, said broadcasting was "vitally important"; he confirmed that the new Parliament would ensure a secure status for Gaelic. He went on to stress that the future of Gaelic lay in the hands of the family, and announced plans for a Gaelic school. The Punjabi language should be included in the list, since it is used by 70% of all Indians and Pakistanis resident in the UK; if others wish to, then Urdu, Gujarati, and Hindi could be added as well, although they are used by very much fewer persons as shown by previous surveys published by the Government Office for National Statistics. Official Figures Government Office for National Statistics for people living in Britain : Pakistani – main language spoken – Punjabi: 48%, Urdu: 24%, English: 22% Indian – religion – Sikh: 51%, Hindu: 33%, Muslim: 6%, Christian: 5% Hindi is spoken by 2% of Indians Government Dept for Education and Employment letter dated 5 Nov 99 : GSE examinations in 1998 - Panjabi : 1,686 Hindi : 0 Gujarati : 1,147 A Level examinations in 1998 – Panjabi : 262 Hindi : 22 Gujarati : 0 Commission for Racial Discrimination The latest 1999 data from the Commission for Racial equality states that Punjabi is the most commonly spoken language among British Asians, which includes 95% of all Sikhs and 74% of all Pakistanis. Punjabi is the 2nd language in England, and is used by some 1.3 million people by Indians, Pakistanis and Sikhs living in the UK.

Gurfateh apparently, they are actually given five words which are kept highly secret (however i've been told that a disgruntled ex-disciple actually published these words on the internet). apparently, their 'guru' says that each word corresponds to a different spiritual plane. a radhasoami who lives nearby me told me that she received initiation not from her 'guru' but from one of his followers - so many followers do not even get to see him, let alone actually talk to him etc. quite a strange relationship really. ps. aside from this, they are absolutely obsessed with the twisting, garbling and misinterpretation of Guru's Dhurki Bani. these efforts are solely conceived to justify their personality-cult led system. Gurfateh

Gurfateh vaahiguroo...vaahiguroo...vaahiguroo...vaahiguroo...vaahiguroo Gurfateh

:? Gurfateh thats a bit unfair hey...asking for someone's credentials because they look at something differently from you. in fact, its this approach that kept Brahmins in power for centuries over the 'dumb beast' that were the people; "we can read Sanskrit and you can't so there!". i agree with your other point though; there is a place in india which calls itself a 'Gurdwara' and people come along and offer sharab/alcohol at the golak...so, sadly there are many anti-Gurmat pratices happening in this Kalyug we live under; many so-called 'Gurdwarae' are perfect examples. we can only talk from experience i guess... when i used to go to punjabi after-wedding parties in halls etc. (you know - when the groom has shaved his stubble and taken his dastaar off) i was exposed to Bhangra and also jumped up and down feeling a temporary high (further promoted with the intake of shots and spliffs). all i ever saw was alcohol, booze, girls/boys, men/women eyeing each other up and lust was rampant everywhere...i used to be part of that; i was a dumb beast and enjoyed the whole thing. no matter what anyone says, dancing has erotic connotations and has traditionally been something that mostly women have been expected to do while 'men' look on (think of Darbar Sahib when ahmed shah abdali decided to setup a 'dancing venue'...that was before Vaahiguru ordained a decapitation for him ) i'm not saying don't dance...but i am most definitely never going to say 'go out and dance...its harmless'. Guru doesn't blatantly 'get all thaliban' and say 'thou shalt incur hell by dancing - full stop'. but what Guru does do is enjoin us to practice the positive and resist the negative with nothing but pure piyaar; because he wants us to meet our True Husband. ask yourself this; someone who loves Guru, does paath, simran etc. and is dying to meet Vaahiguru - will they feel the need to jump up and down with an audience watching; is this their idea of enjoyment? remember all insipid tastes evaporate when we are given a taste of Naam...the Inner Dance of Naam Simran, where the Soul Bride offers the Movements of Love to her True Husband, is the greatest dance of all... lets all dance the dance of Eternal Love...and keep Sikhi alive for future generations. Gurfateh

Gurfateh thats an interesting way of looking at it guv...never quite thought of that. i would say this though; taking your thought into account, i still do believe it actually happened. if you ever get a chance to read Rangle Sajjan (The English Translation is called The Imbued Ones), you'll find things in there that will amaze you. the book is about the sangat bhai sahib was part of and was published after all those people mentioned within it had passed away. the reasons for this posthumous publishing become evident as one reads on - the book talks about the spiritual attainment of these individuals. we hear of people who float and hit ceilings, who float over sangat and prostrate in front of Maharaj, who see future events, who have Darshan of Guru Sahibaan in human form etc. in comparison to copper transmutating into gold, these could be labelled even more unbelievable. remember, many metals when placed together through chemical reactions lead to new metals just as 2 atoms of hydrogen and 1 of oxygen leads to water, so certain metals can collectively produce new metals - just because it hasn't been 'officially' done with copper and gold doesn't mean a process doesn't exist...science is limited like most things - it can be summed up as 'truth until further notice'. bhai randheer singh's approach to Gurmat in his books is amazingly simple - his constant reliance upon quotes from Gurbani as opposed to injecting his own interpretation is highly commendable. for him to use parables without declaring them as such would be massively out of character when one considers his general writing style, evident through many of his other works. it becomes obvious that if he were ever to use a parable, it would not escape our notice that it is intended as a parable. in this case as in other cases, he is talking of an actual happening. that is my sincere belief. Gurfateh

Gurfateh Sikh Missionary Society sell it (Featherstone Road, Southall). also, if you attend any rainsbhais in the UK, ( details can be found at: <http://www.akj.org.uk/programmes/default.asp> ) there are usually copies at the book-selling table - i'm sure if you ask nicely they'll give it u for free. ps really recommend it; gave me a life-changing experience just when i needed it. if all else fails, 'pm' me. Gurfateh

Vaahiguru...Vaahiguru...Vaahiguru...Vaahiguru...Vaahiguru

Vaahiguru...Vaahiguru...Vaahiguru...Vaahiguru...Vaahiguru

Gurfateh hope all are well. i would like to point the moderators of this forum to 'dynamic banda' and his comments. a moderator recently pointed towards 'bhai sahib's' comments and stated that: “If we keep our attitude towards resolving the issues then there won't be any issue but when we keep the attitude of being offensive and don't want to spread the knowledge we have gained through our reading and study then this kind of questions you will see everywhere not just on sikhawareness without any anwser and turning youth more into confusionâ€. yet i find the lack of reaction to this and other previous comments from ‘dynamic banda’ a sign of extreme uneven-handedness - a very insulting and hurtful mail by anyone’s standards. the terms: ‘randhirpanthis’, ‘headbanging’, ‘highpitched orgasms’ and now 'jai satguru randhir singh and his panth' have been used - again no comment from 'TruthSingh', a moderator who had previously responded to ‘bhai sahib’s’ mail which in comparison was extremely mild to say the least…there's not much else to say. i will not make this into an extremely long rebuking mail because this would only satisfy the negative elements who continue to vulgarise this debate. if mails like this are left on the thread without any interception by the moderators then i think that i have recently joined a forum which is actually not very productive but infact destructive... i know rome wasn’t built in a day but if people went about destroying and burning every building before and while it was being erected, then it would never have got built at all… i think that sums up what has happened to this particular thread – hopefully it won’t spread to the rest of the forum. Gurfateh

Gurfateh veer N30 Singh ji i agree with your points...thanks for sharing them :-) however i would like to approach one subtle issue that is: :: Regardless of the Guru's definition of sant, should we call spiritually-advanced humans sant or not? shaheed bhai taru singh was not called sant, shaheed bhai mani singh was not called sant, shaheed baba deep singh was not called sant, baba buddha was not called sant, shaheed baba banda singh bahadur was not called sant, bhai gurdas was not called sant, bhai nand lal goya was not called sant, bhai kannaiya was not called sant, bibi bhago kaur was not called sant...and so the list goes on and on, as a veritable who's who in our Great Sikh History. there's an important inference here; throughout Sikh history, it seems that no member of the Guru's Sangat was singled out and adorned with the sant title, regardless of their level of sacrifice and pyar for the Guru...why is this? also, why is there a serious deficit between the no. of male and female sants today...why is this? come the very late 19th>20th century, santdom springs-up everywhere with many male self-proclaimers. the question is, were there 'elements' who wanted to create an abundance of sants to decisively split-up the panth and to induce a human-human relationship? and would these elements benefit from this. did governments such as the indira gandhi administration support the likes of the nirankaris and their human 'guru'? why does it seem like the radhasoamis (whose 'guru' keeps kesh and kara but tells his followers they don't have to) are helped in many ways by the indian govt. of today with various concessions etc.? i don't know the answer to all these questions, but i think these questions raise some very pertinent points which should perhaps lead to some serious introspection... you're absolutely right; i'm 100% sure that shining Gurmukhs like baba nand singh, baba attar singh and bhai randheer singh did not hanker after the title (in fact from what i know, they proactively rejected it and pointed towards Guru Ji as the True Sant). the sad thing is that sects such as naamdharis, nanaksaaris spring up regardless of the fact that their so called 'Leaders' were such great souls, who predicted what would happen and did all they could whilst in their human form to ensure that this redirection away from the Guru would not take place. i read somewhere that one of the members of Guru's Sangat asked baba nand singh: 'who will sit upon your gaddi when you leave us'. i feel that his reply was the reply of a noble and dedicated GurSikh: "I received no gaddi and so will not pass it on; the gaddi belongs to Guru Granth Sahib Ji" (that gives me a lump in my throat just thinking about it) if we feel like praising or dispraising someone, let it slowly diminish and soak-away within our heart...hold your poison or your blessing - do not fame or defame / praise or dispraise. only Guru and Vaahiguru deserve our praise... we are all the dogs of the slaves of the slaves of their slaves. lets hope that by truly manifesting this attitude, we can help through Guru's Kirpa to indirectly cultivate it within others. lets's pray that the Nimarata we beg for continuously will be graced upon us and them. may i humbly say that if a member of the Guru's Sangat is spiritually advanced, we should try to learn from them but in no way should we jeapordise the Kirpa bestowed upon them and us by Guru Ji, and haplessly expose them to honorific titles, praise etc...especially so when they are alive. let's remember the true democratic nature of The Sangat concept our Guru's blessed upon us... can i leave you with something shaheed bhai fauja singh once wrote. it is in response to one of the many 3HO sikhs who visited during the 70's and with whom he maintained correspondence. he wrote them the sweetest and most insightful letters. it seems that in one particular letter he received from them, s/he (american sikh) asked paaji if the people around him were suffciently 'organised': "May I humbly inform you that God is very much fed-up with the Gurudom personality-cult systems. He requires direct, continuous and affectionate prayers..." this is an interesting response, no matter how we interpret it. i'd like to make this my last response on this issue (lest my ego decides it wants to start trying to prove anyone wrong), and would like to say to all those who replied, thank you for being a really insightful Sangat. Gurfateh One Guru Granth / One Guru Panth

Gurfateh thanks for the insight veer ji - very helpful. Gurfateh

"Days and nights are decreasing, Oh my mind! Meet The True Guru, Who will set your affairs in order." Siree Guru Granth Sahib Ji Suhaagan His friend forever calls him amidst the crowded place She whispers left unheard melts amongst the mundane To the poisoned lover he clings while she beckons undisturbed How devoted the Beloved's bride remaining faithful to the other Every day she weeps for him her tears are GurPrasaad He should change his cheating ways let her find Eternal Love The locks upon the tower yield to no-one but himself If only he could listen to her quiet plea for Love He would close the mansion's doors and break the chains of bondage The Love that keeps her yearning would free her from the tower The Husband awaits her arrival he sends the coach of Naam As helpless grains of sand Tumble down his hour glass

“Life is but a dream and death is coming soon to disturb this illusion. Until and unless we come to such a state of mind, and realise death before leaving this body, we will not reach our goal and purpose in this lifetime.†Shaheed Bhai Fauja Singh (1936 - 1978) how? our mouths do love to talk of shaheed. can the imprisoned SPEAK of the freed? our ears do cherish the grace of their words. was it us WHO LISTENED and heard? our eyes do cry for the dust off their feet… walk to DEATH or retreat? our hearts will run after a glimpse of their face… will the loveless reach Their Place?

Gurfateh dear veer sukha singh, if someone insinuates you are a manmukh in such a situation, then thats obviously out of order - is that what that person said or is it an assumption upon your part, that that was their view? if they did say that, shame on them...manmukhs like that are in all guises. Guruji says, "wherever there are saintly ones, there are also sinners". also to be honest, i am not entirely sure either why their technique/practice of Naam Abyas is restricted and made exclusive - its something i still need to look into. aside from that, can i say that when i do simran, the picture of the Khalsa as a unified entity and the concept of Guru physically exsiting through all those Singhs and Singhnian is amazing - just the thought of it... pure love is Gurmat...beyond all jathebandis and personal opinions, there is only: One Guru Granth/One Guru Panth Gurfateh

Gurfateh thanks for your points dear veer ji; i take your point of view onboard. Gurfateh

Gurfateh a very well put reply. all these reasons make it obvious that Guru Ji would rather we did Gatka if we wanted to 'jump around'. Guru Ji's message isn't puritannical...its practical. ps personally, i think that bhangra and bhangra videos are literally a 'waste of time' for the above reasons. Gurfateh

Gurfateh i feel that my reply has opened a can of worms.. the reason i responded to bhen ji gurdeep kaur the way i did is because thats what i did when i was in her position; i heard lots of people's opinions about this jathebandi and how they are right or wrong, and how this other jathebandi is better or worse - blah, blah, blah. i too have also discussed issues that i once felt were controversial with many of the Sangat. i have not yet been given Naam from the Guru (through the panj piyare) and so am in no reasonable position to offer bhen ji an insightful reply concerning something i have not experienced...to do so would perhaps be foolish of me - hence, i attempted to redirect her with nothing but good intentions. my thought was: "it would be good for her to get some info 'straight from the horse's mouth". i would humbly like to say that i feel this is the most positive way to progress in Sikhi. my dear brother Kaal mentioned that the akj have copied this particular interpretation and practise of Naam from the naamdharis (who have a human 'guru')...is it not wise for bhen ji to place her own interpretation before such answers so that she can come to her own conclusion? i say this regardless of whether i give her an answer or someone else does... its always best to go to the source..in this case it concerns the views of the akj...so, hear their side of the story. please forgive me if i have caused any offence. One Guru Granth / One Guru Panth Gurfateh

Gurfateh The Sadh-Sangat, where people truly concentrate upon Vaahiguru, sing The Praises and ponder their Guru's teachings is full of 'Sants' if we must use the word. When we pick individuals out and address them as Sant Ji or Maha Purakh etc. we are not focusing enough upon Guru who leads to Vaahiguru. The likes of great individuals such as Baba Nand Singh, Bhai Randheer Singh, Baba Attar Singh etc. would never hanker after such titles - so lets not go against their wishes. The Radha Soamis, Nirankaris et al have all capitalised upon this fixation that many 'sikhs' have with worshipping/following spiritually advanced people...not to mention that theres always the chance of imposters. The dust Guru Nanak Sahib Ji wishes for is not from a self-proclaimed Sant but from someone who is truly a member of The Sangat...Sadh Sangat...The Gathering of Saints. Notice something - its a collective. Hence 10th Nanak created: Guru Granth - Spiritual Guru Panth - Physical Imagine what it does to a spiritually-advanced soul when someone calls her/him a Sant...the guilt they'd feel is unimaginable... Now, what if that person is an imposter or someone who starts believing everything they hear...what happens to them then? Forgive this fool if he has caused offence. Gurfateh

Gurfateh Bhen ji, its best to post this kind of question on an akj message board. If there isn't one attached to the canada/america akj site, visit: <http://akj.org.uk> you'll have Gursikhs there who have gone through the experience and and they will be in a good podition to give you info. Gurfateh