Morghe Sahar

There is a humour section. Maybe Shaheediyan could have posted it there. When Baba Harnaam Singh gave naam to Hazrat Jesus (as) I suppose that was a joke as well then...

Unbreakable wrote: "I am God reborn as a human." Your own mulmantar says that God is ajuni, wombless not born. You are not the Creator nor are you all knowing, nor all powerful yet you state that you are God. Did you create yourself? No Do you pray to yourself? No How arrogant. Your Bhai Gurdas dian Varan even criticize Vyasa for meditating on So'ham (I am He) and the Adi Granth clearly says: Let that mouth burn that says that the Lord takes birth. He is not born nor does he die. He does not come come and go (i.e. is not reborn). You will never stop amazing me with the sheer amount of blasphemy and shirk that comes out of your mouth. Unfortunately you have just commited the ultimate sin: spiritual arrogance. Such a waste of life... I may have my differences with what most of you call Sikhism, especially the Khalsa tradition, but fact remains that my respect and love for Hazrat Baba Nanak Shah (ra) is undiminished and it pains me to see people who claim to be his disciples distort his teachings to claim that they are God reborn as human which is by the standards of Gurbani itself the highest ever possible sin. Sad indeed...

Unbreakable wrote: "I am God reborn as a human." Your own mulmantar says that God is ajuni, wombless not born. You are not the Creator nor are you all knowing, nor all powerful yet you state that you are God. Your Bhai Gurdas dian Varan even criticize Vyasa for meditating on So'ham (I am He). You will never stop amazing me with the sheer amount of blasphemy and shirk that comes out of your mouth. Unfortunately you have just commited the ultimate sin: spiritual arrogance. Such a waste of life...

And this is supposed to be a true story?

I heard that repeating "ki husan jamal hai" from Jaap Sahib with a 108 mala 5 times a day for 40 days can achieve that. Just something I heard.

Or maybe the girls are the previous invaders reborn to suffer... or maybe the parents are reincarnated SS officers...or maybe the victims are the reincarnated German soldiers of the two world wars With reincarnation all guesses are allowed even the wildest ones...

Wow that's far more than what the Mughals, Afghans and Persians ever achieved in terms of body count during the Indian campaigns. Something to think about...

ava = from above downwards tara = from the root TR tarati , to cross (if horizontal) the prefix ava indicates a descending motion hence why avatara means only one thing: descent Whatever conotations are attached to the word later on are semantic changes that are contextual. As for classical Panjabi literature I am not aware of the use of avatar in the sense Mithar describes in the woks of Bulleh Shah, Shah Hussain, Waris Shah, Baba Farid who are the classic of Panjabi literature. As for the passage Mithar has used to illustrate his point it shows the extension of the meaning of avatar normally restricted to divine manifestation to cover all souls. That's all it is. Descent is the literal and correct translation of avatara, though most specialists of Indian religions leave the term untranslated given its popular use in the English language as a borrowed term like shampoo and bungalow.

Mithar I was referring to avatar as divine manifestation. In the line you referred to it is referring to normal mortals which is an unusual use of the word avatara. Don't take an exception to mean the general meaning of a word.

Mithar wrote: "I think the reason why this guy would insist on using the term "menifesting" instead of incarnation is because he wanted to reconcile Sikhi and Hinduism to Shia Islam which does not believe in incarnation, that is why he would insist on using menifestation." Actually avatar does not mean incarnation. Incarnation means becoming flesh (carnis=flesh) whereas avatara means "descent" for which the closest equivalent is theophany. There is a thing called language which has precise codes of meaning and means of getting that meaning to be known. Avatara has a precise meaning which is not the equivalent of incarnation. Hindus themselves agree that it is not incarnation: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=23023 http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/ani...r-religions.htm Does it ever occur to you that you and your mates sound pathetic when you use words like avatar whose meaning you don't even know and re-invent after each degh session you had.

Jsingh96 wrote; "its funny how when this guy was a singh he would write extensive posts (which i still have) on how one shouldn't use the word incarnating and instead used the word manifesting." When writing incarnation I was writing about the way most of you perceive the concept of avataravada which of course is a theophany not an incarnation. Most Indians, be they Sikh or Hindus, unfortunately behave regarding the avataras as if they were incarnations which of course makes them de facto mushriks.

Chatanga1 wrote: "so i guess we can put this to rest now?" As long as people don't claim things that aren't true fine.

Chatanga1 wrote: "And why cant they be thiers AND ours?" No problem with sharing as long as the borrower states where he borrowed the tradition from. Maha Kharag Singh wrote: "ish kanjar di bass di gall nahi, first a catholic then a Hindu then a Sikh then Muslim and now going back to Catholicism. He is just jealous because his cult of Islam's tradition is "dying" and wants a tantrum because Sikhi is known for Guru Da Langar. Oh and please don't put Roman Catholicism on par with Gursikhi as its foundation is on the worlds biggest fairy tale the Bible." Me a Hindu? That's new...and no I am not going back to Catholicism. Stating certain facts about Catholicism doesn't make one a Catholic. As for jealousy...how can I be jealous of something that was born dead? As for fairy tales I guess for you tales of God incarnating as half lion, a turtle fish and wildboar are more credible... Gotta go now, my unicorns and dragons need to be fed...

Malve da Sher wrote: "Ohhhh. Hope you dont loose any sleep over your issue. Did anyone ever tell you theres more to the world than sikhawareness.com?" A guy posts two little posts and you get all upset...ay baba

Chatanga1 wrote: "Good God Bahadur, so duz the muslims and cristians as well. But if we wre to look at percentages and compare between Sikhs and MUslims/christians , then we wud see a different story." What percentage? Any reasonable chart you can indicate measuring intent behind charity? "i dont know why you keep banging on about things in Sikhi that have been pre-ordained in other religions. No-one says that Sikhi is 100 % new. Next you will say that cos we belive in 1 God, that we have borrowed that from another religion as well. Cos there are many religions before Sikhi that worshipped only 1 God." What I have an issue about is people claiming certain institutions and traditions to be theirs when in fact they have been borrowed from somewhere else.

Mithar wrote: "Bahadur says that Langar is copied from Shais or Sufis, but i know of many if any Shia or Sufi mosques that has a 24hr langar like Sikh Gurdwaras, in the west or in India. This is just one of his many bogus theories Bahadur comes up with." The Persian Shia origin of the langar is well documented in serious historiographic and anthropological works on Iran and Sufism.Fact is that the langar as an institution existed in Persia already. As for you not finding any langar in Shia mosques or Sufi shrines please let me laugh, that's assuming you ever entered any of these. Many such institutions have langar in India probably not most.But then again what I discussed was the Persian origin of the langar not if IndoPak Muslims practise it. Then again not all gurdware have langar either and many gurdware don't serve langar when they are closed...so the 24 hour thing is a bit of a myth. As for your ignorant statement about Catholicism...go and ask the Muslim kids of Cairo if Sister Emmanuelle forced them to become Christians... It so happens that my own brother works on Catholic charities and it is very clear that many of them do not force their beliefs upon those they serve. Catholic charity workers are meant to see Christ's suffering face in the needy they help and serve as an act of love to Christ. There is a clear distinction in Catholic canon law between missioning orders and charity orders and most of the time the two are separate. Some orders like the Jesuits did indeed provide charity as well as insentives to conversion but has now become a rare thing.The age of forced conversions by Catholics is definetly over. As for Sikhs helping others without ulterior motive...I would take that with a few pinches of salt. Sikhism has had and still has missionary orders such as the ancient masands before they went corrupt and the four sampradayas and it is needless to say that the help provided to poor people will be very much an insentive for them to adopt Sikhism.If Sikhism were not a missionising religious movement it would never have left Panjab to start with, which thinking of it now...

unbreakable wrote: "Which other Faiths apart from Sikhism that hold a 24hr langar (depends on how much help they have at hand, i.e. man power), that have a langar type "department" part of the faith, where the founder or one of the prophets have made it part of the faith and the duty of the followers to carry it on?" Langar is a Persian Shi'a institution that was widespread under the Safavids with its roots in the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (as). Langar houses or langar khaneh were a popular feature in Safavid and Qajar Iran and that's where Indian Sufis and Sikhs took the idea from. The economic and sociological situation in Iran having changed the langar as a regular institution is found mostly in Sufi khaneghahs and major shrines such as Imam Reza's shrine in Mashhad for example that has a 24 hour kitchen. Masjids and Hosseiniehs and organisations such as the charity sections of the Basijis and the Revolutionary guards very often tour poorer areas providing people with free food, clothing and medicine. In Sufi khaneghahs the langar is served exactly like in gurdware except that self service is not allowed so that those dervishes in the khaneghah have the maximum opportunity to serve the guests. Also on major religious holidays, marriages and funerals free food is distributed in the street to everyone not just inside the masjids or hosseiniehs. Giving out free food and being hospitable is an act that is beautiful in the eyes of Allah (swt).

jsingh96 wrote: "catholics did not invent the idea of nishkaam seva." Given the fact that Catholicism predates Sikhism by several centuries and that other religions predating Sikhism have also different forms of selfless service charities it goes without saying that Sikhism did not invent the concept of selfless service. As to the form that seva takes it has no original forms in Sikhism either. The langar is an institution borrowed from the Safavi Persia and the idea of serving food for the homeless in the street as has been mentionned earlier by a poster is borrowed from Christian charities. In fact when reading the writings of several Indian reformists, be it Singh Sabha, Neo Hindus or Aligarh Muslims, it is very clear that they admit to draw inspiration from Catholic and specifically Jesuit institutions for the creation of orphanages and free schools. This is not to say that charities did not exist in India before. In fact we have clear evidence of free hospital having been created all over Ashoka's empire due to the influence of Mahayana Buddhism that holds karuna (compassion) as one of its core teachings. But the way these charities are being managed now in India by the movements I just mentioned is in its entirely Catholic in inspiration. In any case I am sure the poor people who get help from institutions like Pingalwara are not interested about who invented this or the other concept but there is always necessity to correct those who falsely claim for themselves things they never invented... As for the space programm and billions being used for that space programm, the idea of spending all that money on the poor is sheer idiotic populism. The economic problems of India are structural and injecting billions into a sick structure is totally counter productive. Rather economic growth and well distributed wealth are likely to solve the poverty problems that many Indians still face. Economic growth implies an endeavour to give one's country the skills and means to achieve this. The space programm is an excellent path in that direction showing the whole world India's maturity in the world of technology, a maturity that will help India progress economically.

Matheen wrote: "You didn't look hard enough - there is a group of Singhs who distribute hot food and drink every week to London's homeless people." Good to see Sikhs imitating Catholic charities. Chatanga wrote: "you say very rightly, that there are charities who will help without looking to convert, and in the same breath say any starnger entering a langar will be given a lecture on sikh generosity. Just as some haev generalised good charites into having ulterior motives, you have generalised about sikhs and langar. at my local gurdwara , We have non-sikhs who come very regualalry to eat langar. They dont ever come into darbar or anything, or know what langar -/sikhi is about. I have never seenheard of anyone approach them to "save them". " These are things I have seen with my own eyes in many many gurdware. I am happy you frequent a gurdwara that upholds some manners but that is not the case of many other gurdware. "Anyways, i dont know you was morghe sahar, so a belated Eid Mubarak, to yourslef and the Ummah." wa alaik

Unbreakable wrote: "NOTHING in return. So why become a preacher when you should be a sevadhar. They themselves will know that it was a Sikh who helped me and the rest God will take care of. Our Duty is to do seva where it is required and nothing more." Yes nothing in return. If you actually took time to inform yourself about non Sikh charities that don't "preach" to the people they help you'd realize how foolish these statements are. So far I haven't seen Sikhs distributing food to homeless people in the streets of the major capitals of Europe but I have seen MANY Catholic, Jewish, Muslim and even Vaishnava charities doing that without asking the people whom they help to listen to some sermon. In fact in one of his latest writing H.H. Pope Benedict XVIth has urged Catholic to serve without second thoughts of trying to convert the helped. Jewish organisations don't convert and Vaishnavas are just satisfied with people eating Hari's prasad and as for Muslim charities such as the Secours Islamique de France I have never seen them distribute anything but couscous and mint tea. Then again any stranger entering a Sikh langar hall will be given a lecture on Sikh generosity and how it's unique to Sikhs....forgetting to mention of course that langar was a Persian Islamic institution to start with but that is another discussion... You see people who receive help from Catholic, Jewish or Islamic charities rarely get to have to listen to sermons about how charitable religion xyz is whereas the visitor of a Sikh langar hall is bound a lecture in bad english about how great Sikhs are. So much for "nothing in return"

Mithar wrote: "How is that a Christian approach? A Christian approach is that they will ONLY help if they have a chance of converting you to Christianity.But a Sikh would help anyone regardless of faith, caste or race, and I don't see anything wrong in also introducing them to Gurmat." That is a pathetic lie. There are many Catholic and Orthodox institutions that have provided and still provide education and social care to people who are not themselves Christians. The same counts for many Jewish Tsedkia organisations and Islamic charities.