Mr Sardar

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Although I still recommend passing a rehat maryada for the noition against namaz as it is not in gurmat however still to be respected.

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Fateh, Has anyone read the book Rajiv A Kapur - Separtism http://www.amazon.com/Sikh-Separatism-Politics-Rajiv-Kapur/dp/0043201792 how did you find the book? What is it about in a nutshell? What do you think about it?

Now that's the best post I have read on this thread so far.

Where can you get the stages of spiritual growth book by hardial singh from?

So please elaborate on the stages of avastha if you can?

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I dismiss Sants when they start asking people for money i.e. buying yourself a place in heaven. Please if you know any real sants do tell me. Is it also in akal purkhs hukam for you not to wake up at amritvela take ishnan and do nitnem, or to do nindya, chuglia and swearing or to stab someone in the back, to lie and cheat to them, to commit adultery, to drink (do nasher), to cut your kesh? Please elaborate on what is past ruihana stage, then why so much corruption at some of the highest levels of the Sikh clergy, gianis and raagis corruption? What is wrong with recognising the whole of humanity as one and the same?

Standard depends where you go 3ho can be standard for many people while akj can be standard there- separtist vs pluraist. Bani also talks about the most religious people being corrupt. Sants are key to definition- they can be all sangat be it Sikh or even everyone- Guru Nanak time sants were pirs and sadhus. Now it is the standard scam artists asking for donation only to pocket it themself. Show me a real sant that is perfect and has no flaw in there character that even in there footstep they kill no insect in there breath they kill no bacteria, that are even beyond again paap. We all have kamai to even be humans, and if someone has avastha why would they become a sanyasi when Guru Nanak went to siddhas to tell them they are doing wrong by staying away from society not to bring there goodness to others. Also I have met Christians and Muslims who have reached ruihana stage- light pouring out of face.

could you post the actual meanings here please. Thanks.

Please could I get sangats view on what Ram and Har means in bani it repeats many times, what is it's significance and relation to Krishan Bhagwan and Ram Chander. What are your views on it?

It is not about disbeliving bani but disbeliving it's interpreations, one tuuk of bani can have different understandings many jathas and scholars do this- Like in this thread bani has been used to say Sikhism is the only right path and others feel Sikhi is one of the many paths, plus additional understandings from different people on this board. The translation and arth of mool mantar is different per jatha- however many tend to follow across similar lines, for people who are closed minded that is difficult to accept then- the arth of naam and guru can be so many things for so many people. So many Sikhs do not even know the difference between man and mat. In 25 years, in 25 miles a language changes so it comes harder to have a singular punjabi amongst all sikhs hence this can change the understanding of bani from its purest form. If someone disbelieves in bani that is up to them not anyone else, God bless that person. Buddha regardless of what anything thinks is a very wise person and his words have more value then more things we can read on the internet as for his authority as a spirtual master. There maybe something in 1430 angs of gurbani but has anyone actually read it all, who has lived up to that bani and placed it into practice, who actually knows banis entire meaning? Who has no ego? Who is dead but alive? Who is the lowest of the lows? Who is truely a brahm giani? Who is the living the truth? Who kisses the feet of those who recognise God? Who truly seeks the dust of the feet of saints? Maybe they can post something along those lines rather then something that raagis repeat again and again.

Why would someone with gian of Sikhi say such a thing about caste- awi morakh banda hai. Awal allah noor upay kudrat ke sabh banday I can't really be bothered to phone this guy, can someone else and tell me what he says on the forum.

I am just wondering as a great teacher of damdami taksal and someone who knew the arth of Guru Granth Sahib, Baba Deep Singh must have had some utterings and teachings of his own mouth perhaps not to be taken to the satkar of bani but still valuable like we find Giani Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale teachings everywherre on the net, Similarly are there any for Bhai Mani Singh, Baba Banda Singh Bahadar or any of the Misls or any other great Gursikh after Guru Gobind Singh maybe shabazedey- such as moral teachings-quotes? I am aware Bhai Nand Lal Goya had writings. Are there any books/teachings written by Guru Hargobind Sahib, Guru Har Rai, Guru Harkrishan?

I agree with you. So here is a question say all of that does happen- Would you see inter-religious marriages taking place? Or one religion being born out of all others or Sikhism taking over the whole world or Bahai's or Sufis or anyother pluarists for that matter. What would that mean to amrit sanchar and existence of Gurdwaras? Something like what Akbar tried or Maharaja Ranjit Singh tried. “Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.” - Buddha

I agree with your solution but it can not happen if Sikhs isolate themselves from interacting with Muslims like alot do- there will be trust issues and it may take many many years before that is gone. A reform is also in need in Sikhs but it does not stop there even Hindus have there issues as well- I guess you may be a great flower in the garden of Hinduism , so you can deal with that reform be it from Sikhs not feeling the respect they deserve to not teaching Sikhism in Schools across India and recognising Sikhism and its huge role in the independence movement of India- giving Sikhs the huge respect it deserves rather then degrading into to a sect of Hinduism who are stupid and backwards even though many people act like that. The issues Islam faces are from within and outside we are apart of the outside and we need to change that, shower love and watch hatred melt. We need to interact with scholars and appeal to there humanity to bring that reform there is great hope.

And what do you propose to do about it (the haddith issue)? What is your solution? Nanak shah fakir, Hindu ka Guru, Musalman ka pir Very famous saying- see- http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Nanak_in_Turkey Guru Nanak is actually considered a Pir by muslims well known- the mughals called Sikh Gurus- Hindu ka Pir They just translate Guru to mean pir- the whole noition of prophet comes from nabi, rasool, pacamber. A prophet is defined as someone who is predicted and reveals a book by many Muslims and according to http://www.earthportals.com/Portal_Messenger/nanak.html he is prophecised to come. I have seen that video it was so hard to watch the first time that I did not even want to play it the second. That act of pedhophila was wrong in all circumstances it also seems like the failure of the legal system when something like that can go by. I have met Sikh guys who sleep around with muslim girls in acts of revenge and I do not think an eye for an eye is the answer. Also such a thing is addressed in sau sakhis and Guru Gobind Singh forbid khalsa going down to such levels. That does not mean all Muslims are like that- there are good people out there if you meet them not everyone has a fanatic radical agenda- I have met Muslims who openly insult scholars, there scholars and just like sikhs who insult gianis and sants, additionally there are Hindus against the brahman class who suppress untouchables and pursue random supersition about marrying a dog and avoiding days of marriage. This is a bigger problem and maybe one which could be dealt with on a legal level- At this point in time Harjas it may be best if you confront scholars on these issues you have my backing. The issue with these community tensions are even to extents that do not make sense even like muslims who sleep around and sikhs who sleep around avoid sleeping around with each other but they still do. There are some muslim girls who feel so in-caged that in an act of rebellion actually seek out Sikh guys to sleep with but on the whole none of that really makes sense, as if you are going to break your religion - do you really even still have a religion?

Oi I resent you calling me a Muslim- I am not a Muslim at all- I am against circumcision the sunnaon the whole-any of the sharia. I am a Sikh if you do not want to call me that because I do not live up to that then that is fine, I am not an amrithdhari however am considering it on the whole. You can label me a Hindu as an insult if you want to but first and foremost I am a human being- there are many things in Hinduism I do not agree with. Nor do I wish enemy-ship with muslim or hindus or anyother religious group for that matter. However first foremost I find respecting all religions is important regardless of any religion someone is in and I find the teaching of Guru Nanak-Guru Gobind Singh-Guru Granth Sahib the fundamentals of my practice hence why producing such a thread was my intention on seeing if there is something that in Sikhi would fundamentally reject the notion of namaz. Another issue is Sikh-Hindu relations such as consition of India sub-categorising Sikhism under hinduism even though Sikhism is separate to clergical operation in terms of 5takhts vs shankarcharyas/brahaman decree. Additionally why do you think I am muslim? I kind of find that offensive. Is it because you think I am one of those guys who twists stuff to convert people. On the whole I personally do not really want people to convert to Islam because it in only grows the problems of potential terrorism in the world- but would be pleased to see reform in every religion for the bigger goal of world peace. But Krishna pushes for arjun to go carry out his action due to his khsyatria dharma the whole noition of caste would still exist in that. Hindu dharam is flawed for the brahmanical system- but I do not mean to disrespect your Gurdev I still respect some hindu spirtual masters who have great spirtual stages and I humbly ask for your blessings and forgiveness in anything I have said to offend you or will say to offend you. Look I understand that those rape cases and these things that happen annoy you, they annoy me as well so I am going to ask you, How do you stop them? Every person in the world has a right to choose a religion or belief it is there human right. Yes Islam does go against that with its appstote killing stuff on the whole it will take time before that is either thrown away ideologically, not every Muslim is evil - if they become the voice of there religion and mainstream they can choose to moderate that out later on- if not then leave it to them to convert to Christianity or Sikhism or Buddhism to find some peace. The people can make a difference- I am all for humanitariansm before anything else and pushing for utopia on the whole. "ਸੂ੍ਵੈਯਾ ॥ सू्वैया ॥ SWAYYA ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਕਰਯੋ ਦੁਹਹੰ ਮਿਲ ਮਾਰ ਡਰੈ ਇਹ ਕੋ ਮਤ ਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਨੰਦਹਿ ਕੇ ਘਰਿ ਆਇ ਹੋ ਡਾਰ ਕੈ ਠਾਟ ਇਹੀ ਮਨ ਮੈ ਤਿਨ ਸਾਜਾ ॥ मंत्र बिचार करयो दुहहं मिल मार डरै इह को मत राजा ॥ नंदहि के घरि आइ हो डार कै ठाट इही मन मै तिन साजा ॥ Both of them thought that the king may not also kill this son, they decided to leave him in the house of Nand; ਕਾਨ ਕਹਯੋ ਮਨ ਮੈ ਨ ਡਰੋ ਤੁਮ ਜਾਹੁ ਨਿਸ਼ੰਕ ਬਜਾਵਤ ਬਾਜਾ ॥ ਮਾਯਾ ਕੀ ਖੈਂਚ ਕਨਾਤ ਲਈ ਧਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਸਊਰਭ ਆਪ ਬਿਰਾਜਾ ॥੬੩॥ कान कहयो मन मै न डरो तुम जाहु निशंक बजावत बाजा ॥ माया की खैंच कनात लई धरि बालक सऊरभ आप बिराजा ॥६३॥ Krishna said, "Do not be fearful and go without any suspicion," saying this Krishna spread his deceptive show (Yoga-maya) in all the four directions and sat himself in the form of a beautiful child.63." Sri Dasam Granth ANG 658 Yes I agree with you there clergy is flawed but they are not the only ones, majority of Hindus clergy is flawed, Sikh clergy is flawed, the chrisitian clergy has been flawed for a long time but has changed alot over the years I would say the same for the Buddhist the dalai lamai is really going for peaceful things even though previous lamas did some nasty things. Which Vaishnav bhagat rejected caste first, I felt this is something that naturally was a direct result of Buddhism first in India. I applaud you on your protest against these rapes (plus forceful conversion, date rape, sexual preying and assault) and any rapes and I want to ask you what do you plan on doing about it? I do suggest you write this stuff to Islamic scholars email them try peace tv zakir naik and those lot - see there reaction let us and me know what happens if they take it on board and are willing to do a talk against it or support it or ignore it maybe then we can do something together as well as the sikhawareness people about it rather then sitting with our heads in the ground. Also these days the media is really on Muslims on the whole these stories sell maybe you can put it out and see what the media gives as feedback. I am not a Muslim so I can not do anything from within that clergy but it seems some the things you have to say about those issues can be used constructively to do something. From within Sikhism perhaps we might able to do something rather then just being racist. Also if you think I might have found a gap in the understanding of such religions before other people it would have only been a matter of time till those ideological gaps would have been found- So something can still be done a hukamanama from akal takht can be issued to forbid namaz to any Sikh. It is likely that some Muslims would probably come across these posts and use it to convert other Sikhs- so it is probably a good idea to if you really want to preserve separtism or maybe persue something within Sikhi gian that would forbid it from scholars maybe from damdami taksal or rarasahib or akj or sikh missionary. The key difference between a Sikh and Sufi muslim in my opinon would be loyalty a Sikh would be loyal to Guru Nanak- Guru Gobind Singh-Sri Guru Granth Sahib where a Sufi Muslim regardless of there sufi master even if they believe in Pir Nanak as there sufi master they would need to be loyal to the Prophet Muhammad. The spirtual character would be alike; such as forgiving, merciful, loving, charitable, etc (we can even find the belief of reincarnation amongst some sufis and ismalis). As discussed earlier there are many issues with that-however there are certain haddiths which are not totally mad- the radicalisation probably came in when certain arab kings felt a decline in Islam so to go against that they probably did what they did- It is ackward to believe that Prophet Muhammad was what he is made out to be-because such a conflict is of ideas is dificult to put into perspective but is possible. This is what makes Guru Nanak unique out of all prophets and avtars he is one of the greatest to walk on this earth- we struggle to find a smudge against his character and to even mention it would make a person look like a fool. The only issue alot of the modern world has with Sikhism is the very thing sikhs stress the most for which is the bana- the 5ks not cutting hair and keeping kirpan to actually put it into good understanding - I believe that the majority of Sikhs need to learn its proper understanding regardless of if they decide to keep bana or not. One figure in Islam who has lost the plot which someone really needs to do something about is Anjaim choudary- that guy is a trouble maker.

If you are aware of sufi traditions and kaalams- yes it can however there would be a difference which is a Sikh must accept Guru Granth Sahib as shabad Guru where for a Sufi it would still be granted huge respect the only thing is most Muslims are not aware of the Sikh tradition and relate it to satanism as majority of us are not on gurmat. And even the descended of Mian mir still respects Guru Granth Sahib he may not be a Sikh but his love for Sikhs is better then hatred and that love can places in the future- he may not do methdheek but he still shows love which is still something. There is a sakhi from sant singh maskeen, maskeen went to iraq met a descendent of pir dastigir when he presented him with a gutka which contained japji sahib, maskeen told this muslim that this was the kaalam of Pir Nanak- he bowed down to this and installed the gutka on a high place in the place where his ancestors had been to witness Guru Nanak;s witness. A real Sufi muslim must respect books, writtings, sayings, utterings by a sufi master such as Rumi's works are considerred as the "Persian Quran" it is given a position next to the quran and rumis work for many Iranian's (some afghans) and Turkish people exist as the sole meaning of Islam which indicate respecting other religions and some even say that even non-muslims can attain heaven hence are open to salvation- Here is a naqhsbandi sufi sheikh perhaps naqhsbandis are not the idea example because even they played a role in Guru Arjan Dev ji's martyrdom but from the consideration they allow for a bigger realm of books and teachings- These sufis teach strongly Guru Nanak was a Muslim because he want to Mecca- however there is a post on this forum which shows how ottomon empire allowed non-muslims to enter at the time.

Guru Nanak is above being a mere human but he was still in human form- When asked are you hindu or muslim? He responds my name is nanak and I am a puppet made of 5 elements. Since you feel the very need to excommunicate me on a forum let me give you the definition of a Sikh and you ask your self if you are one? Remember divinity is within every human being - with that great amount of devotion even you can attain unity with God- hence respect all Humans. If you do not see God in all you do not see god in all- please look at the Bhai Khaniya ji sakhi. Sikhs had a political issue with fascism comming from Aurangzeb-he was hated by Afghan pathans, marathis and pretty much all of his alliances and empire, Guru Nanak also blessed Babbar to have his raj- The mughal empire was also composed of Hindus- and the attack of the mughal empire was also on different sects of Islam especially sufis banning there instruments as it goes against haddiths to have music. Fourth Mehla: One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru, the True Guru, shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name. Upon arising early in the morning, he is to bathe, and cleanse himself in the pool of nectar. Following the Instructions of the Guru, he is to chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. All sins, misdeeds and negativity shall be erased. Then, at the rising of the sun, he is to sing Gurbani; whether sitting down or standing up, he is to meditate on the Lord's Name. One who meditates on my Lord, Har, Har, with every breath and every morsel of food - that GurSikh becomes pleasing to the Guru's Mind. That person, unto whom my Lord and Master is kind and compassionate - upon that GurSikh, the Guru's Teachings are bestowed. Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of that GurSikh, who himself chants the Naam, and inspires others to chant it. ||2|| Sri Guru Granth Sahib Are you a Sikh? Those who ask a sikh's caste, they are not my sikh, they never were, and they never will be) --Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee Maharaj)... Are you a Sikh? ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਿਖੁ ਬਿਕਾਰ ਤੇ ਹਾਟੈ ॥ गुर का सिखु बिकार ते हाटै ॥ Gur kā sikẖ bikār ṯe hātai. The Sikh of the Guru abstains from evil deeds. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ANG 286 Are you a Sikh?

You are aware of 1984? That is thanks to Hinduvta-You can have a look at this too http://www.info-sikh.com/PageRSS1.html Harjas you really like to argue -cool- As for your points about these issues first of all that is not a whole religion to blame but groups and indviduals yes these are the issues coming out of haddiths and mad priests and what do we do in return we preach hatred against it. Hatered against more hatred will create mayhem - It is not like we can just go a drop a nuke on mecca and/or pakistan that will make things worse. First of all we are all humans before we are anything else so romeo juliet stuff can happen, when it comes down to ideological community attacks then first of all we need to see what is happening- There are accounts of girls on the internet who said they find Sikh guys repulsive some are alchoholics, perciveable wife beaters, crazy nutters or plain lost the plot- I have seen keshdhari Sikhs feel negatively about check these out http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=200196139954 There is also another group called something like Sikh guys or Sardars get more love from non-Sikh girls something along the lines like that- there are loads of internet postings on this matter as well. That is one of the fueling factors for this lil-romeo situation there loads of girls who hate there dads, hate sikhism and want to run away sadly one of those cases its a failure internally more then anything. There are alot of girls who do convert that say Sikhism is evil because it promotes drinking and wearing nothing-dancing around - and being promiscuous. Heres a quote from a Sikh girl about how a Sikh guy is; "i befriended a sardar... never again... its possibly been one of thee most unsettling experiences of my life... this guy sent me thee most malicious text i have ever received in my entire life.. the content of the text was targeted at personnel things I had said to him in confidence... the shameless creature continued to try and communicate with me after.. and even had the nerve to see me in person as friends.. like nothing had happened.... thats just not normal.. saying something so personal targeted at seriously hurtful experiences in my life.... yet didn't even have the decency to apologise.. its totally put me off friendships with sardars... maybe this is an isolated incidence.. but i've never had an experience like that with clean shaven guys.. its really sad that he didn't even acknowledge what he'd done and didn't feel an ounce of remorse.. yet he claims he is a nice guy.. " As a guy from just making friends with Sikh girls I have to personally say it was disturbing and Sikh women are the worst friends I have had. Although it does not mean I am going to sterotype all of them to be like that, people can be unique- not everyone is a sheep and follows the crowd. Alot of people relate there experiences they have to previous ones I am guessing people have not had pleasant ones and neither where mine pleasant. With those quran quotes you posted up just like Guru Granth Sahib an ancient language can be translated differently hence why it is forbidden to translate Guru Granth Sahib in the time of the Gurus to later versions of punjabi. With those quotes there are many websites which even deal with them you are looking at a certain interpretation for instance with the first one if you contextualise it- in a time of slavery it says it is lawful to marry your slave who is a women- that considers there was a low population as well as a slave being given a higher status to that of a begum- additionally many women lost there bread winners to why polygamy was allowed- there are even passages which allow alcohol but that was in a certain time. Guru granth sahib can be accepted as well because there are many many many sufis after Prophet muhammad with many books and utterings and followers who have a tradition of singing those works in a darbar and do langar(persian word).

Have you seen this before; http://www.sikhawareness.com/index.php?showtopic=11950 "LORD KRISHNA Lord krishna was very fond of looking at naked young girls. Once upon a time Krishna, in order to get a full view of some bathing virgin girls, went to the extent of hiding their clothes on the tree top just to get a panoramic view. Does he have divine immunity from looking at naked women? The Gita, a Holy book of the Hindus, quotes that when these bathing low caste girls begged for the return of their clothes, Lord Krishna demanded that they come out of the water with their hands raised instead of covering their bodies. Oh my innocent Hindu brethren! Can this action be attributed to god? Is this God capable of indulging in such ungodly acts? Will Hindu mothers tolerate their son imitating god Krishna?? " What makes an avtar is being ruihana i.e. Gurmukh where light comes out of there face such as the same as a prophet- a prophet such as the prophet muhammad is considered an avtar such as amongst Turkey there were even pictures made of him - the value of praising him is almost the same as what a devta would be we are just dealing with different languages. A devta is a being who is enlightned some come from the heavens and some humans reach that stage of bhagati be it what ever system of dharma. The thing is most muslims stress that you can not call a prophet a God it is blasphemy while in India people even turned Gandhi into a prophet and into a God already. Even devtas and devis made faults, they are still great beings but Akal is above all. God is fundamentally nirgun Nirankar aswell as being sargun- but to understand that sargun can be the manifest within rachna (creation) itself- devta/devis/avtars and prophets were of the sargun formation- creation is the praise of kartar and kartar is within all of creation- which hinduism accepts as rom rom and sufism accepts i.e. omnipresence. "Amongst all is the Light-You are that Light. By this Illumination, that Light is radiant within all. Through the Guru's Teachings, the Light shines forth. That which is pleasing to Him is the lamp-lit worship service. ||3|| Guru Granth Sahib (Ang 13)" Dasam granth "ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨ ਅੰਤੁ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਇਓ ॥ ब्रहमा बिसन अंतु नही पाइओ ॥ Brahma and Vishnu Could not know His end. ਨੇਤਿ ਨੇਤਿ ਮੁਖ ਚਾਰ ਬਤਾਇਓ ॥੫॥ नेति नेति मुख चार बताइओ ॥५॥ The four-headed god Brahma described Him ad `Neti Neti` (Not this, Not this).5. ਕੋਟਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਉਪਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ कोटि इंद्र उपइंद्र बनाए ॥ He hath created millions of Indras and Upindras (smaller Indras). ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਉਪਾਇ ਖਪਾਏ ॥ ब्रहमा रुद्र उपाइ खपाए ॥ He hath created and destroyed Brahmas and Rudras (Shivas). ਲੋਕ ਚੱਤ੍ਰ ਦਸ ਖੇਲ ਰਚਾਇਓ ॥ लोक च्त्र दस खेल रचाइओ ॥ He hath created the play of fourteen worlds. ਬਹੁਰ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਬੀਚ ਮਿਲਾਇਓ ॥੬॥ बहुर आप ही बीच मिलाइओ ॥६॥ And then Himself merges it within His Self.6." Sri Dasam Granth ANG 35 "ਰਾਮ ਰਸੂਲ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਦਿਕ ਕਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਵਾਲਹਿ ਕੂਟੇ ॥ ਕੋਟ ਉਪਾਇ ਧਾਇ ਸਭ ਥਾਕੇ ਬਿਨ ਤਿਹ ਭਜਨ ਨ ਛੂਟੇ ॥੫॥੭੯॥ राम रसूल किशन बिशनादिक काल क्रवालहि कूटे ॥ कोट उपाइ धाइ सभ थाके बिन तिह भजन न छूटे ॥५॥७९॥ Ram, Muhammad, Krishna, Vishnu etc., All were destroyed by this sword of KAL; crores of measures, but without the devotion of One Lord, no one achieved redemption.5.79. " Sri Dasam Granth ANG 1289 "ਦਿਸਾ ਬਿਦਿਸਾਯੰ ਜਿਮੀ ਆਸਮਾਣੰ ॥ ਚਤੁਰ ਬੇਦ ਕਥਿਅੰ ਕੁਰਾਣੰ ਪੁਰਾਣੰ ॥੨੪॥ दिसा बिदिसायं जिमी आसमाणं ॥ चतुर बेद कथिअं कुराणं पुराणं ॥२४॥ Thou hast also created the directions, the indivcations, the earth and the sky. Thou hast also related the four Vedas, the Quran and the Puranas.24..... "ਕ੍ਰਿਯਾ ਕਾਲ ਜੂ ਕੀ ਕਿਨੂ ਨ ਪਛਾਨੀ ॥ ਘਨਿਯੋ ਪੈ ਬਿਹੈ ਹੈ ਘਨਿਯੋ ਪੈ ਬਿਹਾਨੀ ॥੨੬॥ क्रिया काल जू की किनू न पछानी ॥ घनियो पै बिहै है घनियो पै बिहानी ॥२६॥ None could comprehend the working of Death (KAL). Many have experienced it and many will experience it.26. ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਕਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਮੇਟਿ ਡਾਰੇ ਉਪਾਏ ॥ किते क्रिसन से कीट कोटै बनाए ॥ किते राम से मेटि डारे उपाए ॥ Somewhere He hath created millions of the servants like Krishna. Somewhere He hath effaced and then created (many) like Rama. ਮਹਾਦੀਨ ਕੇਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥੀ ਮਾਂਝ ਹੂਏ ॥ ਸਮੈ ਆਪਨੀ ਆਪਨੀ ਅੰਤ ਮੂਏ ॥੨੭॥ महादीन केते प्रिथी मांझ हूए ॥ समै आपनी आपनी अंत मूए ॥२७॥ Many Muhammads had been on the earth. They were born and then died in their own times. 27. ਜਿਤੇ ਅਉਲੀਆ ਅੰਬੀਆ ਹੋਇ ਬੀਤੇ ॥ ਤਿਤਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਜੀਤਾ ਨ ਤੇ ਕਾਲ ਜੀਤੇ ॥ जिते अउलीआ अमबीआ होइ बीते ॥ तितिओ काल जीता न ते काल जीते ॥ All the Prophets and saints of the past were conquered by Death (KAL), but none could conquer it (him). ਜਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹੁਇ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਏ ॥ ਤਿਤਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਖਾਪਿਓ ਨ ਤੇ ਕਾਲ ਘਾਏ ॥੨੮॥ जिते राम से क्रिसन हुइ बिसन आए ॥ तितिओ काल खापिओ न ते काल घाए ॥२८॥ All the incarnations of Vishnu like Rama and Krishan were destroyed by KAL, but they could not destroy him. 28. ਜਿਤੇ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਸੇ ਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਸੇ ਹੋਤ ਆਏ ॥ ਤਿਤਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਖਾਪਾ ਨ ਤੇ ਕਾਲਿ ਘਾਏ ॥ जिते इंद्र से चंद्र से होत आए ॥ तितिओ काल खापा न ते कालि घाए ॥ All the indras and Chandras (moons) who came into being were destroyed by KAL, but they could not destroy him. ਜਿਤੇ ਔਲੀਆ ਅੰਬੀਆ ਗੌਸ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਕਾਲ ਕੇ ਅੰਤ ਦਾੜਾ ਤਲੈ ਹੈਂ ॥੨੯॥ जिते औलीआ अमबीआ गौस ह्वै हैं ॥ सभै काल के अंत दाड़ा तलै हैं ॥२९॥ All those Prophets, saints and hermits, who came into being, were all ultimately crushed under the grinder tooth of KAL.29." Sri Dasam Granth ANG 98-99 "ਤੇ ਭੀ ਬਸਿ ਮਮਤਾ ਹੁਇ ਗਏ ॥ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਪਾਹਨ ਠਹਿਰਏ ॥੧੩॥ ते भी बसि ममता हुइ गए ॥ परमेसर पाहन ठहिरए ॥१३॥ They also were overpowered by `mineness` and exhibited the Lord in statues.13. ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਧ ਸਾਧ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਏ ॥ तब हरि सिध साध ठहिराए ॥ तिन भी परम पुरखु नही पाए ॥ Then I created Siddhas and sadhs, who also could not realize the Lord. ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਤ ਭਯੋ ਜਗਿ ਸਿਆਨਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਨ ਅਪਨੋ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਨਾ ॥੧੪॥ जे कोई होत भयो जगि सिआना ॥ तिन तिन अपनो पंथु चलाना ॥१४॥ On whomsoever wisdom dawned, he started his own path. 14. ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਬੈਰ ਬਾਦ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਬਢਾਯੋ ॥ परम पुरख किनहूं नह पायो ॥ बैर बाद अहंकार बढायो ॥ None could realise the Supreme Lord, but instead spread strife, enmity and ego. ਪੇਡ ਪਾਤ ਆਪਨ ਤੇ ਜਲੈ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਪੰਥ ਨ ਕੋਊ ਚਲੈ ॥੧੫॥ पेड पात आपन ते जलै ॥ प्रभ कै पंथ न कोऊ चलै ॥१५॥ The tree and the leaves began to burn, because of the inner fire.None followed the path of the Lord.15. ਜਿਨਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਤਨਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਕੋ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਤਿਨਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਅਪਨਾ ਰਾਹੁ ਚਲਾਯੋ ॥ जिनि जिनि तनिक सिध को पायो ॥ तिनि तिनि अपना राहु चलायो ॥ Whosoever attained a little spiritual power, he started his own ptah. ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਮਮ ਉਚਾਰਿ ਤੇ ਭਯੋ ਦਿਵਾਨਾ ॥੧੬॥ परमेसर न किनहूं पहिचाना ॥ मम उचारि ते भयो दिवाना ॥१६॥ None could comprehend the Lord, but instead became mad with `I-ness`.16. ਪਰਮ ਤੱਤ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਆਪ ਆਪ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਉਰਝਾਨਾ ॥ परम त्त किनहूं न पछाना ॥ आप आप भीतरि उरझाना ॥ Nobody recognized the Supreme Essence, but was entangled within himself. ਤਬ ਜੇ ਜੇ ਰਿਖਿ ਰਾਜ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਆਪਨ ਪੁਨ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਚਲਾਏ ॥੧੭॥ तब जे जे रिखि राज बनाए ॥ तिन आपन पुन सिम्रित चलाए ॥१७॥ All the great rishis (sages), who were then created, produced their own Smritis.17. ਜੇ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਨ ਕੇ ਭਏ ਅਨੁਰਾਗੀ ॥ ਤਿਨਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥ जे सिम्रितन के भए अनुरागी ॥ तिनि तिनि क्रिआ ब्रहम की तिआगी ॥ All those who became followers of these smritis, they abandoned the path of the Lord. ਜਿਨ ਮਨ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥ ਸੋ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਨ ਕੇ ਰਾਹ ਨ ਆਯੋ ॥੧੮॥ जिन मन हरि चरनन ठहिरायो ॥ सो सिम्रितन के राह न आयो ॥१८॥ Those who devoted themselves to the Feet of the Lord, they did not adopt the path of the Smritis.18. ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਚਾਰ ਹੀ ਬੇਦ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਲੋਕ ਤਿਹ ਕਰਮ ਚਲਾਏ ॥ ब्रहमा चार ही बेद बनाए ॥ सरब लोक तिह करम चलाए ॥ Brahma composed all the four Vedas, all the people followed the injunctions contained in them. ਜਿਨ ਕੀ ਲਿਵ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਲਾਗੀ ॥ ਤੇ ਬੇਦਨ ਤੇ ਭਏ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥੧੯॥ जिन की लिव हरि चरनन लागी ॥ ते बेदन ते भए तिआगी ॥१९॥ Those who were devoted to the Feet of the Lord, they abandoned the Vedas.19. ਜਿਨ ਮਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬਨ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੇ ਭਏ ਅਨੁਰਾਗੀ ॥ जिन मति बेद कतेबन तिआगी ॥ पारब्रहम के भए अनुरागी ॥ Those who abandoned the path of the Vedas and Katebs, they became the devotees of the Lord. ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਗੂੜ ਮਤਿ ਜੇ ਚਲਹੀ ॥ ਭਾਤਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਦੁਖਨ ਸੋ ਦਲਹੀ ॥੨੦॥ तिन के गूड़ मति जे चलही ॥ भाति अनेक दुखन सो दलही ॥२०॥ Whosoever follows their path, he crushes various types of sufferings.20. ਜੇ ਜੇ ਸਹਿਤ ਜਾਤਨ ਸੰਦੇਹਿ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਸੰਗਿ ਨ ਛੋਡਤ ਨੇਹ ॥ जे जे सहित जातन संदेहि ॥ प्रभ को संगि न छोडत नेह ॥ Those who consider the castes illusory, they do not abandon the love of the Lord. ਤੇ ਤੇ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰੀ ਕਹ ਜਾਹੀ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਕਛੁ ਨਾਹੀਂ ॥੨੧॥ ते ते परम पुरी कह जाही ॥ तिन हरि सिउ अंतरु कछु नाहीं ॥२१॥ When they leave the world, they go to the abode of the Lord, and there is no difference between them and the Lord.21. ਜੇ ਜੇ ਜੀਯ ਜਾਤਨ ਤੇ ਡਰੈ ॥ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਤਜਿ ਤਿਨ ਮਗਿ ਪਰੈ ॥ जे जे जीय जातन ते डरै ॥ परम पुरख तजि तिन मगि परै ॥ Those who fear the castes and follow their path, abandoning the Supreme Lord. ਤੇ ਤੇ ਨਰਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮੋ ਪਰਹੀ ॥ ਬਾਰ ਬਾਰ ਜਗ ਮੋ ਬਪੁ ਧਰਹੀ ॥੨੨॥ ते ते नरक कुंड मो परही ॥ बार बार जग मो बपु धरही ॥२२॥ They fall into hell and transmigrate again and again.22. ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਬਹੁਰ ਦਤ ਉਪਜਾਇਓ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਅਪਨਾ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਇਓ ॥ तब हरि बहुर दत उपजाइओ ॥ तिन भी अपना पंथु चलाइओ ॥ Then I created Dutt, who also started his own path. ਕਰ ਮੋ ਨਖ ਸਿਰ ਜਟਾਂ ਸਵਾਰੀ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥੨੩॥ कर मो नख सिर जटां सवारी ॥ प्रभ की क्रिआ कछु न बिचारी ॥२३॥ His followed have long nail in their hands and matted hair on their heads . They did not understand the ways of the Lord.23 ਪੁਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਰਖ ਕੌ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਸਿਖ ਕਰੇ ਤਿਨਹੂੰ ਬਡ ਰਾਜਾ ॥ पुनि हरि गोरख कौ उपराजा ॥ सिख करे तिनहूं बड राजा ॥ Then I ccreated Gorakh, who made great kings his disciples. ਸ੍ਰਵਨ ਫਾਰਿ ਮੁਦ੍ਰਾ ਦੁਐ ਡਾਰੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤ ਰੀਤਿ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥੨੪॥ स्रवन फारि मुद्रा दुऐ डारी ॥ हरि की प्रीत रीति न बिचारी ॥२४॥ His disciples wear rings in their ears and do not know the love of the lord.24. ਪੁਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਮਾਨੰਦ ਕੋ ਕਰਾ ॥ ਭੇਸ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਕੋ ਜਿਨਿ ਧਰਾ ॥ पुनि हरि रामानंद को करा ॥ भेस बैरागी को जिनि धरा ॥ Then I created Ramanand, who adopted the path of Bairagi. ਕੰਠੀ ਕੰਠਿ ਕਾਠ ਕੀ ਡਾਰੀ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਨ ਕਛੂ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥੨੫॥ कंठी कंठि काठ की डारी ॥ प्रभ की क्रिआ न कछू बिचारी ॥२५॥ Around his neck he wore necklace of wooden beads and did not comprehend the ways of the Lord.25. ਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਉਪਜਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਨ ਅਪਨੇ ਰਾਹ ਚਲਾਏ ॥ जे प्रभु परम पुरख उपजाए ॥ तिन तिन अपने राह चलाए ॥ All the great Purushas created by me started their own paths. ਮਹਾਦੀਨ ਤਬ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਅਰਬ ਦੇਸ ਕੋ ਕੀਨੋ ਰਾਜਾ ॥੨੬॥ महादीन तब प्रभ उपराजा ॥ अरब देस को कीनो राजा ॥२६॥ Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26. ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਏਕ ਪੰਥ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਲਿੰਗ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੀਨੇ ਸਭ ਰਾਜਾ ॥ तिन भी एक पंथ उपराजा ॥ लिंग बिना कीने सभ राजा ॥ He started a religion and circumcised all the kings. ਸਭ ਤੇ ਅਪਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਯੋ ॥੨੭॥ सभ ते अपना नामु जपायो ॥ सति नामु काहूं न द्रिड़ायो ॥२७॥ He caused all to utter his name and did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone.27. ਸਭ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਉਰਝਾਨਾ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾਹੂ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ सभ अपनी अपनी उरझाना ॥ पारब्रहम काहू न पछाना ॥ Everyone placed his own interest first and foremost and did not comprehend the Supreme Brahman. ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਹਰਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਬੁਲਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਮ ਕਹਿ ਕੈ ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥੨੮॥ तप साधत हरि मोहि बुलायो ॥ इम कहि कै इह लोक पठायो ॥२८॥ When I was busy in the austere devotion, the Lord called me and sent me to this world with the following words.28. Sri Dasam Granth ANG 135-136- Guru Gobind Singh also TO God belongs the East and the West, Wheresoever you look is the face of God. Qur'an 2:115

Well the whole idea of avtars does not make sense in Abrahamic countries as it is an eastern idea best way to translate it is as a prophet and angels- quran says a warner was sent to every nation (to warn about God) also says there have been 125,000 prophets and only mentions a few such as moses(mosa), abraham(ibrihim), jesus(isa), yusuf(joseph), muhmaad- to which we could dare even add Krishna (from Bhagat-gita and Mahabharat) or add avtars from puranic tradition i.e. chandi, durga, kali, shivji, , avtars from vedic tradition such as Indra devta and it's writer Brahma, avtars from Ramyan such as Ram and his chela Hanuman, ranging from Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva of the shakti of akal purkh- And many more as the essence of hinduism is monotheism- however delivered through panatheistic domain and understood by majority as polytheism. We can find even pooja existing amongst the sufi understanding ther are sufis who ask of the virgin marry in pictorial form. Islam would need to consider Prophet Muhammad as the most beloved prophet out of all prophets as he is the seal of the prophets but the bahai understand this as he is the "grace" -i.e. he has humbled himself before all the prophets before him. Guru Nanak's existence is not even known to many muslims if we could prove he turned the kabbah perhaps by identifying cracks in the foundation stone and doing carbon dating it would change alot- but he would be considered a pir and that is a step up from being non-existent. I know Guru Nanak existed there is too much evidence to suggest that he is not just a folk legend- the Sikhs are the legacy of him and it is time to live up to that. Thing about the haddith's issues is that it may be better if Muslims do not know about them because imagine a majority of people acting upon it thinking God wants to do that however the scholars who know this could be debated on the basis it is all unauthentic- now those who sufis/bahais/perhaps ismalis who know this also need the backing of people such as Christians- Jews-Hindus- Sikhs-Agnostics-Atheiest i.e. Non-Mohammadens as those threaten everyone else. If that religion is toned down into ancient Christianity form with the teachings being the gospels of jesus and namaz then hope is there for world peace so perhaps with time, teaching a wishy wash interpreation will actually overtake the mainstream understanding. Also you can message those people who started the Sikh-Muslim friendship page they are actually sufi muslims who take part in interfaith events and talks. I believe they would be glad to start a hindu-muslim page, not every Muslim is a wahabbi nut case there are those who want peace in the world as well.

Also please check out facebook group http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=21937945215&v=wall have a look at the photo section as well