G.Kaur

I never said pinds are composed of only one caste, but the fact is that most pinds in Punjab have inhabitants (the majority) of one caste and then there are a few families who don't belong to the majority. I am against using family names as your lastname because your family name reveals your caste/or the caste you use to belong to. There's a reason why Guru Gobind Singh Jee told men to have Singh as their lastname and women Kaur. By using Singh and Kaur you're "anonymous", no one knows about your background. We all know that we're going to discriminate people based upon their family name. Like I said before, if I told you my family name or the name of my dadke or nanke pind you would know about my background.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, what I meant was that there are jatt pinds where the majority of the inhabitants are jatts and then a few other non-jatt families, there are tarkhan, julaha, chamar, khatri pinds etc. The names of the pinds are not based on castes, but most people know that x pind is a jatt pind, y pind is a tarkhan pind etc. To give you an example: Near my nanke pind there's a pind called Skoper, and everyone know that it's a jatt pind. So if someone had Skoper as their lastname everyone would know he/she is a jatt. I hope it makes sense.

The problem is that pinds are based on castes, we have jatt pinds, tarkhan pinds etc. and in the pinds there are few other families who don't belong to the same caste as the majority. If I used my nanke or dadke pind as my lastname people would still know what background I used to have.

http://www.sgpc.net/sikhism/sikhism2-cont.asp Caste and Sikhism: Sikhism does not inculcate belief in caste. No man is born great or low. Guru Amardas says, "All colours and forms are thine." Guru Arjan Sahib gives the simile of the potter. The clay has been moulded in different forms. All men are the vessels of God. People may follow different faiths or divide themselves under different labels, but essentially man is one and indivisible. Whoever meditates on God becomes as great as He. Look at Ravidas the cobbler, Sadhna the butcher, Saina the barber. They were raised to the pedestal of saintliness and honoured by all. Just as the philosopher's stone transmutes iron ore into gold, in the same way God's name changes a low-born person into a Bhagat. God's name cleanses and purifies. It burns away all impurity. A person of high caste is worse than one of the lowest caste if he does not meditate on the Name. Moreover, caste is of no consequ-ence in the next world. In God's Court, men shall be judged by their thoughts and deeds, and not by their family or pedigree. The Guru brought the four castes under one banner. And yet he taught us to be humble and poor in spirit, because with-out it, we cannot sublimate egoism(humai).

Care to explain?

There's no such thing as casteism in Sikhism, you just gotta accept that. Are you Amritdhari? If yes, do you remember what the Panj Pyare told you about caste? If you aren't, then you need to read Rehat, the teachings given by Panj Pyare regarding caste and Gurbani. There are many Shabads mentioning you shouldn't be proud of your caste. Perhaps you could answer my questions earlier in this topic; what exactly are you proud of? Are you a farmer or some spoiled kid living in London who got nothing to do with agriculture and still proud of call yourself "jatt"? I'm not worrying about you, I'm just tired of people who are proud of their caste and talk baqwaas on forums. Run back to SS site? Why? Is this yours or your dad's forum? Is this forum run by jatt's? I don't know what world you're living in, have you ever heard of azhara people and the way they get treated in Afghanistan? Have you ever heard of the caste-system in Afghanistan? I don't have a problem with different cultures, but I do have a problem with who are obsessed with their caste and think they're superior to everyone else. Men aren't meant to be modest? So men can walk around half-naked, that's okay according to "Indian culture"?

A question for all those who are proud of their caste: What exactly are you proud of? I can understand that people back then divided themselves into groups based on their professions; i.e. farmers were jatts, carpenters were ramgarhia/tarkhan, low caste people (chure, chamar, chir) used to clean people's houses and the naalis at the streets, but nowadays we see people saying "I'm so proud of my caste blah blah blah", but how can you be proud of a profession/something you aren't? If a farmer is proud of his work, if a carpenter is proud of his work etc. I'd say okay, but if you are some spoiled kid living in UK, US, Europe or India for that sake saying I'm proud of my jatt tribe/background, singing baqwaas jatt songs, jatts are so cool, we are the best etc. you're just messed up! The jatt thing is just an example, it could be any caste. It's like saying "for generations my family have been doctors, I'm a shopkeeper but I'm so proud of my doctor ancestors". This is one of the reasons why our community is messed up! People in Punjab and Punjabis in general look down on chamars, chure and chir because their caste used to clean toilets and now we see apne standing in lines waiting for some gora to give them a job as a toilet cleaner at Heathrow airport or anywhere else. Where's their pride/dignity when they come to Europe, or do you "forget" everything once you've left Punjab and when you come back to Punjab on vacation you act like you are some king who's too superior to everyone else. Okay I know this is off-topic, I'm just so fed up with our people and their double standards. The toilet cleaning is just an example. There's nothing wrong with cleaning toilets. It's a job like any other jobs. But what makes me angry is the double standards our people have. Look down on people who do it in Punjab and then you go abroad and do it yourself for a living.

Do I really have to answer your question, SikhKhoj?

Do you consider yourself a Sikh or a jatt? Remember you can't be both at the same time Do you understand why Singh's can wear shorts/pants and a t-shirt (which don't cover their legs or arms) and women can't? Why the double standards?

I think you "forgot" these topics: "help me get rid of kaam", "I get kaami thoughts when I see a girl, what shall I do", "I'm having wet dreams at night, help me", "I've been watching adult movies, do I have to go pesh".

A Punjabi/Indian thing? What world are you living in?! How many non-religious Indian/Punjabi women have you met who keep their hair? It's a fact that majority of women cut their hair. Regarding women and hirsutism I don't really think it's a big problem in the Panth. Everyone have a few hair here and there, but very few women have a real beard. And you don't need to worry about Amritdhari women who keep their hair uncut. Just don't marry one, if you don't like the fact that they don't cut their hair. Regarding cinemas, no need to insult anyone. We all know who go to cinemas and who don't!

Okay.

Dal, don't be such a wet blanket - Why aren't topic's like "I'm Amritdhari and in a relationship with a non-Amritdhari, hun main ki kara?", "I like this girl, how should I ask her to marry me and what is she doesn't like me the same way I like her?", "I'm Sikh in love with a Muslim, what should I do?", "my boyfriend asks me to sleep with him, should I do it or not?" allowed on this forum? Before you start yelling at me, notice the sarcasm in my post. Or maybe I'm just too old for these kinds of topics.

I don't think it will work either, and when there are so many who come to Europe and become rich and then go back to Punjab and buy expensive cars and build big kothi's, I don't think the desire of going abroad will change. What reactions did you get when you talked about these things that happen in the west with your family members/friends in Punjab?

Xylitol, yes it's very sad. Have you seen a movie called "a nation without women"? It's a very interesting movie about what could happen in India if people keep continuing killing their baby girls. You can read about the movie on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrubhoomi Dal, I also think many women in Punjab are under the pressure of plucking their eyebrows, wearing expensive jewellery, clothes, giving dowry to your in-laws etc. so that people won't talk about them. My cousin did not pluck her eyebrows till she got married, and when I asked her why she started doing it, she said "my mother-in-law told me "soni banke reheya kar". If you don't pluck your eyebrows people think you are unfashionable, LOL.

Thanks for the clarification, Suryadev. Dal, even Panj Pyare tell the abhilakhees at an Amrit Sanchar that those who are un-parh do not need to do nitnem (it's best if they learn to read Gurmukhi but if they can't learn it, it's okay) and they can do Vaheguroo Simran instead. I don't think you will be punished for a few minor mispronunciations, but that's not an excuse for not learning the right pronunciation.

Keeping hair is not a jathebandi thing. It's rehat given by Panj Piare who are Guru Roop. I don't mind people who don't believe in women keeping hair, but don't come up with all kinds of excuses for women not to keep their hair. Each to their own. Oh dear you are so naive. Boys and men watch Bollywood movies too. Have you never seen men trying to act like they're the next John Abraham with their spiky hair haha Go to any cinema in London when there's a Bollywood movie on and you will realise that 50% of the audience are men.

British definition of a family member (from UK visa application) A “member of the applicant’s family” is any of the following persons (a) the applicant’s spouse, father, mother, son, daughter, grandfather, grandmother, grandson, granddaughter, brother, sister, uncle, aunt, nephew, niece or first cousin; (NB: “first cousin” means, in relation to a person, the son or daughter of his uncle or aunt); ( B ) the father, mother, brother or sister of the applicant’s spouse; © the spouse of the applicant’s son or daughter; (d) the applicant’s stepfather, stepmother, stepson, stepdaughter, stepbrother or stepsister; or (e) a person with whom the applicant has lived as a member of an unmarried couple for at least two of the three years before the day on which his application for entry clearance was made. The Punjabi definition would be: All the above + everyone from your mom's and dad's nanke and dadke, everyone in your pind, your mami's sister's husband's brother's wife's sister's son, your cousin's cousin's husband's cousin's niece's husband's mami, your puffar's sister's husband's sister's daughter-in-law's cousin, your mom's cousin's wife's nephew's wife's massi's daughter.

I must admit I don't know much about English newspapers and magazines. I was quite shocked when I was in Tesco and there were more than 100 different gossip magazines! OMG who publish all these magazines, do Brits really buy and read them? Don't people get tired of reading all these magazines? Anyways back to topic, 5-6 years there was a documentary on TV about teenage mother's (most of them if not all weren't educated) in the UK. One of the girls was 12-13 years old when she had her first child. Her mother was 16-18 when she became a mother, and at that time she was in her mid 30's and a nanni! This girl didn't even know she was pregnant. One day she had stomach ache, she thought it was diarrhoea and went to the bathroom and suddenly she was giving birth. I mean how stupid can you be?! How can a girl/woman not know she's pregnant? Unless you're on drugs 24/7 you probably wouldn't notice you don't get your period for 9 months, you get bigger month by month, you can feel your child kicking in the stomach etc. but those who aren't on drugs, how can they not notice all these things that come with pregnancy? My country has the highest rate of teen drinking in Europe. What's the worst, teenage pregnancies or teenage sharabi's?

Haha no they're not, unless they are from the same (caste) background as you. Otherwise they're low caste people. (Punjabi mentality, not my personal opinion) In my nanke pind all the chamars live outside the pind near the bus-stand, the few chir and bahman families live in the pind with all the rest. The pind next to my pind is a pind with people from chamar background. The 2 pinds used to be one pind many years ago, but then people split because they didn't want to live with the chamars. Idiots!

I Accuse, A Passage From Book by Jarnail Singh Jarnail Singh, the journalist who hurled a shoe at India's Home Minister P Chidambaram in April and forced the Indian Government to respond to the victims of 1984, has written a book on the 1984 anti-Sikh pogroms - I Accuse: The Anti-Sikh Violence of 1984. Shanti Kaur was filled with foreboding. Her 22-year-old son Sohan Singh had not come home. There were just 23 days left for his wedding on April 30, 2009. Did he not like his prospective bride in Rajasthan? He had looked happy about it but he hadn't called and none of his friends knew where he was. After two days of worry, she went to the police. They washed their hands off the problem, saying, 'Must be somewhere with his friends.' Shanti Kaur had seen her father Kirpal Singh and brother Modu Singh being burnt alive at the hands of a mob in 1984. Later, her husband died of throat cancer. She had no father, brother or husband. Would she lose her son as well? She wondered if she should tell the girl's side, but decided it would be too insulting. She decided to wait for a few days. She had pulled her son Sohan Singh out of the quagmire of drugs after a lot of effort. But the drug traders had killed him for refusing to buy any more. His body was hidden in his house, beneath the bedding. The murderer, Kamal, was so arrogant, that he did not even try to get rid of the body, confident no one would go to the police. People say Kamal had murdered his brother too. When the body started to smell, the housemaid noticed. The news spread, but the body couldn't be identified as its face had been mutilated. Hearing the news, Shanti Kaur went to the house. She recognised his clothes and his chappals. The long shadows of 1984 had destroyed everything she had. The police were not ready to register a case of murder. But when the people from the colony surrounded the police station, they rounded up the killers. Shanti Kaur took a loan for the funeral and said prayers for her son and grieved not just for the boy whose future had once momentarily seemed brighter, but for all the others she had lost as well. She was living in Block 32 of Trilokpuri with her father Kirpal Singh and brother Modu Singh when the mob burnt 500 men alive as the police stood by. At the time Shanti Kaur was 17 but she could not understand why the mob was bent on killing them. In front of her eyes her father Kirpal Singh and brother Modu Singh were tied to a charpoy. First their long hair was cut off and then they were set alight as casually as the burning of Ravana's effigy on Dussehra day. Even today Shanti Kaur hears the cries of her burning father and brother. She had just turned 18 when relatives married her off to Puran Singh. Puran Singh's father had been hacked to death by the mob in Sultanpuri. Even Puran Singh had been slashed with swords and knives and left for dead. He used to earn a living by selling vegetables, but it seemed then that her life was coming together again. During this period they had three children -- Sohan Singh, Rajni and Gurbachan Singh. However Puran Singh's health was deteriorating. He was becoming weaker day by day and he talked of pain in the neck where he had been slashed by a knife. They did not have enough money for treatment at a good hospital though Shanti Kaur suggested a number of times that he should see a doctor at a good hospital. At this he would say, 'When we have a bit more money then we shall see.' But that day never came. When he was diagnosed with throat cancer they found that the treatment would cost hundreds of thousands. Where could they have got so much money from? Shanti Kaur was helpless. He passed away within a month in front of their eyes. Shanti Kaur did not give up and started working in homes to bring up her children. Since she was not educated her options were very limited. When she started going to work, people engaged in the drug trade pushed Sohan Singh towards the drug habit. He would remain sad and tired all the time. When Shanti Kaur would ask, 'Son, what has happened?' he wouldn't reply. When she probed his friends, their reply shocked her. Sohan was addicted to smack. When he couldn't get it he would become frantic, thrashing about as if he was going to die. His breathing would slow down, his throat would dry up and his legs would hurt so much that he could not stand. Shanti did not know what to do. The 15-year-old son would understand his mother's pain and ask her to poison and kill him. But how could she do that? Then he would cry for her to save him. She took him to the gurdwara many times and made him swear that he would not take drugs but when he would have the craving, he would forget everything else. Neighbours suggested that she should send him to a de-addiction centre where he could be treated: He went repeatedly to centres at Aman Vihar, Rohini, Paharganj, and Govindpuri. She tried everything to get her son treated. For some time he would lose the habit but later he would again fall in with the same company and the addiction would start again. In the end he was admitted to the Nihal Vihar Centre. He was kept there for nearly one and a half years and she paid for the expenses by working in homes. Shanti Kaur's smile began to return when her son left drugs completely. After he returned home he stayed away from drugs and the company of the drug addicts. When he started working she was relieved. She felt as if her sacrifices were bringing results. When I was listening to her tell her story, I could not imagine a sadness greater than this. Shanti Kaur's daughter Rajni is 16 years old now. When she started going to houses to work, the people around started saying all sorts of things. The younger son has left his studies and works in a clothing shop but she is worried about her daughter's marriage. She asks, 'When will peace be found in my life?' This is not an uncommon story. Far too many of the children of the victims of 1984 are addicted to drugs. After the death of their fathers, their mothers were compelled to go out to work and there was no one to take care of the kids. Gopi Kaur said bitterly in an interview with this author that the accused in the cases of violence deliberately got the children of the widows' colony addicted to drugs so that their whole generation would be destroyed and there would be no one left to raise a voice about 1984. This is the position held by Jagdish Singh, president of the Sikh Riot Victims' Action Committee, and all the widows are of the same view. * * * * * But the despair of the widows is understandable. After losing seven people including her husband in the massacre, Gopi Kaur's hopes were centred on her son, Gurmeet Singh. But when he was 22 years old, Gurmeet fell into the drug habit, became addicted to smack, and died of his addiction. Her younger brother-in-law, Chandu Singh, is so emotionally scarred from his experiences in 1984, he can't go out of the house. He is so scared of the sight of a khaki uniform that he starts running when he sees a police officer. He just sits, staring blankly in front of him all day. Gopi is one of the 70 unfortunate women who received compensation as victims of 1984, but unscrupulous people robbed her of even that. A bogus company called the Oriental Housing Society came into being and lured the uneducated, vulnerable widows into depositing their money into this scheme, promising higher returns. In six months this organisation vanished. The widows curse them till today and a case of fraud is being fought in the courts. However, there is little hope of getting the money back. Two of Barfi Kaur's nephews lost their lives in the prime of their youth by taking drugs. The terrible events of 1984 cast their long shadow, blighting even the lives of young people, who grew up in an atmosphere of the despair and bitterness of their families who had lost everything. Many of the widows feel the people responsible for their husband's deaths are also to blame for all that has befallen them since. The same people have blocked the course of justice and continue to protect the perpetrators. Barfi Kaur and the other widows who got together in Jagdish Singh's house to talk to me said that in the Widow Colony, more than 200 young men have lost their lives to drugs. She recalls that when she and the other widows of the colony used to go out for work, which they were compelled to do as their husbands, the family wage earners, had been killed, kids in the age group of ten to 15 years were targeted and lured into the drug habit by unscrupulous pushers who preyed on unsupervised young boys. There are few households in the colony where the scourge of these intoxicants is not felt. The desperation among the addicts is such that they will even take drugs meant for animals to satisfy their cravings. Young children sniff whitener after pouring it on a handkerchief. Sniffing petrol and other substances it quite common. They can finish a whole strip of Proxyvon-1 tablets in a day. There are frequent thefts to pay for the habit. They sell anything, from the neighbour's motor pumps to household clothes and utensils. If families refuse them money, the atmosphere in the house degenerates into abuses and fights. The widows' hopes were centred on their children. They hoped their sons would do well, but for many households in the widows' colony, this hope too has dwindled. A tearful Gopi says, 'I lost seven men from my house in the riots but now I cannot tolerate the pain of losing my young son.' Jagdish Singh alleges that there is a well-thought-out conspiracy behind the spread of drug addiction in the widows' colony perpetrated by those powers that are against the riot victims. He says, 'If this was not true then a least the police would have been with us. We have requested help from various police sources, but not one is prepared to listen.' The drugs are being sold openly in the form of medicines and injections but there is no one to stop them. They are tired of complaining but the police does not take any action. Proxyvon and other drugs are freely available at chemist shops but there is no stopping them. Why is it so?' The situation is such that the day Jagdish Singh complained about the drug business to the police, his house was burgled the same night. Perhaps it was a warning. Jagdish Singh says that ever since the pogrom-hit families have recovered a bit and started asking for justice, the drug dealers have one by one started giving away the drugs free of cost. Whether this is a conspiracy or not is difficult to say, but as the people in the area ask constantly, why aren't the police taking any action? With the colony in the throes of the drug habit, the women are forced to consider all possible ways of earning a living. With fathers dead in the pogroms, brothers lost to the drug habit and helpless mothers, some girls have been forced to take to prostitution. These innocent girls are being taken advantage of. Jagdish Singh admits that he knows that five to ten girls from their colony are fully into this trade and there are probably at least 50 to 60 more. These consequences of the massacre are heart-rending. Jagdish Singh says, 'If we have something in hand only then can we advise them. If somebody gives them a job or if we can offer a means of earning, only then can we counsel them.' The fallout of the violence of 1984 is still destroying the families of the victims.

My intention wasn't to be judgemental, but it is very important to pronounce Gurbani correct. Another example is that many people say "anand sunoh vadhbhageehoo sagal manorath pooray" but that's wrong. It's "anad sunoh.." not anand. ਅਨਦੁ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਵਡਭਾਗੀਹੋ ਸਗਲ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰੇ ॥

That is exactly my point. One of the few things I like in Punjabi culture is that everyone in your dadke and nanke are your family or door rishtedar.

I Accuse…: The Anti-Sikh Violence of 1984 The unanswered questions, the justice delayed, the unbearable memories—the three days of 1984 when over 3000 Sikhs were slaughtered, have indelibly marked the lives of thousands more who continue to exist in a twilight of bitterness and despair. It was outrage at this state of affairs that led Jarnail Singh, an unassuming, law- abiding journalist, to throw his shoe at home minister P Chidambaram during a press conference in New Delhi. He readily acknowledges that this was not an appropriate means of protest, but asks why, twenty-five years after the massacres, so little has been done to address the issues that are still unresolved and unanswered and a source of anguish to the whole community. Who initiated the pogrom and why? Why did the state apparatus allow it to happen? Why, despite the many commissions and committees set up to investigate the events, have the perpetrators not been brought to book? I Accuse is a powerful and passionate indictment of the state’s response to the killings of 1984. It explores the chain of events, the survivors’ stories and the continuing shadow it casts over their lives. Because, finally, 1984 was not an attack on the Sikh community alone; it was an attack on the idea at the very core of democracy—that every citizen, irrespective of faith and community, has a right to life, liberty and security. Book Reviews ‘I Accuse… opens wounds which have not yet healed. It is a must read for all those who wish that such horrendous crimes do not take place again.’ —Khushwant Singh http://www.jsks.co.in/sh_i_accuse.htm

It's not about people don't register, it's about people being in total denial on what's going on in western countries. And when they come here, a lot of them with no money, they have to sleep on the streets, they get no jobs or jobs where they get 40 uk pounds a day then they realise that they were wrong and that those who told them what's really going on outside India were right. Dal, if you got too much time on your hands these days perhaps you could make a documentary or two about the situation in the UK and it could be sent to colleges, pinds, elementary schools etc. in Punjab.