dalsingh101

Even if our generations does make a difference of destroying jatt-patt through massive parchar of tat sidhant of gurmat. The differences jatha's and samparada's will be always there in terms of my jatha is better than yours or my baba is better than yours or my samparda is better than yours.

Q: How do you eat an elephant?

A: One bite at a time.

Lets do some house cleaning, ask your conscience first- would you really let your sons or daughter marry someone from soo called lower caste, if not then no point of giving high morality speeches, if yes then one should make a difference through parchar and education.

Personally I would look at character first. For a boy ot would be straight forwardness, bravery, intelligence and loyalty. How they carry themselves.

The main arena here is the family arena in my opinion. That is where the stupidity stems from in the first place and that is where it will ultimately be changed.

Thanks for this Dalsingh Ji.

I guess our tribalist brothers will call this a 'piece of propoganda'.

Well I can tell you first hand that its not. I have seen this crap with my own eyes.

I've seen jerks in my own family do it!!

If there ever was a time to face this crap and battle it, it is now.

How does this make you feel?

That's cool brother. I was just a bit concerned because in the past, some misguided Sikhs people have jumped into bed with anti-Muslim KKK type organisations in the UK as a knee jerk reaction to Sikh girls being targetted.

We have to sort our own problems out.

MANGAFIED AKJ!

They are a bit skinny?

Or as my mate used to say...kabooter!

Seriously dude. If we have problems with any other quom. Lets deal with it bravely ourselves and not jump on some extreme right wing bewakoofs bandwagon.

Malwe versus Bhagat!

Round 3!

Ding Ding!!!

Come on guys, be nice!

Maybe some good will come out of this. Maybe more people will reflect on and reject caste.

I hope so.

The Bhai Sukha Singh and Mehtab Singh story book sounds like a really good idea. I would advise browsing through history books before doing so. Dont forget to include the pit stop they made in order to make Shaheedi Degh - theres a Gurdwara in Rajastan marking the spot they did this.

I was looking for details on this Gurdwara but couldn't find it. Can you help Malwe da sher?

Duplicate.

Tony ji

FYI the chamars in Punjab be they Hindu or Sikh have jobs reserved for them in government service as well as in schools. They have places reserved for them in colleges and universities. If a daughter is born to a chamar the government gives them 5100 rupees. Chamars get their fees paid in school. Now this might have been a good way in which the differences in economic conditions between so-called higher and lower castes could have been bridged after 1947 but to have such a system still in existence even after the chamars have had over 50 years of positive discrimination is outrageous.

I am all up for positve discrimination to uplift the oppressed so I don't see anything wrong with what you have described myself. But if you think that this has somehow levelled the field, you are living in la la land. The mental hatred perpetuated by Jat culture towards other 'castes' (esp. Churah and chumar) is unreal and something I dojn't undertsand fully. If you are 'dil da sacha', take off your blinkers and just look and ask. I am not saying all Jatts are doing this because some have imbibed the more enlightened message of Sikhi or more positive western liberal values that are in contradiction to this type of supremacist thinking. Besides, don't talk like Jats never got support throughout the green revolution Tony.

You might live under the impression that all Jats are millionaires and all Chamars are living in hovels but this is not the case. The Jats are having a hard time eeking a living from the land

I don't live under this impression!! I know full well that many Jatts in relative's pinds are dirt poor and barely surviving. Suicides are endemic apparently as is drug taking amongst the youth. But doesn't this even further highlight the ridiculous nature of 'modern day Jatt culture' which has Jats prancing around under the impression that they are the 'dogs gonads' whilst these things are going on in their own and the wider Panjabi community. Seriously, the majority of Jatts have issues acceping any responsibility for the state of Panjab despite their undeniable dominance there. If your styling yourselves as leaders and things are going down the potty, then who is to blame? In the west we would sa that we have ineffectve or corrupt leadership under such circs. Anyway, despite whatever you may say, there is clear exclusion at power levels and an attempt at hegemony in Panjab brother.

You can say all you can against Jats but one thing that Jats have not tried to do but which other castes have done is to set up Gurdwaras that will only allow their own caste to hold the committee posts.

Man, if you are saying certain Gurdwaras (mainly Singh Sabhas) have not been dominated by Jatt committees, then you must either be asleep or consciously hiding the truth. Just because they may not have JAT clearly stuck on a sign outside of the Gurdwara doesn't mean that they are not doing the caste thing, albeit more surreptitiously.

Given that Jats are accused of being so proud of their caste, is it not surprising that Jats do not as a rule become involved in sects outside the Sikh mainstream?

Do you actually believe this? Plenty of dera babas are Jatts and have been accused of all manner of things. Lets not rake up gundh though. That will make both of us feel sick.

It is also not well known that even in the so-called 'Jat' Gurdwaras in the villages, the majority of the Granthis tend to be non-Jats.

It is very well known .

Another example of where Jats differ from other castes is that we never associate those Sikhs who did so much for Sikhi by referring to their caste.

Go to the morons at jattworld.com and see just this.

It's all very easy to accept the lazy excuse that Jat arrogance is the reason for non-Jats to gravitate towards sects on the fringes of Sikhism but the reason lies elsewhere.

Jats have very good and bad characteristics. Bravery being a example of the former and excessive insularity the latter. This insularity is playing havoc in Sikhi today which was built on the premise of inclusion and is a straight meritocracy.

The saddest thing of all, is that the Sikh community as a whole has SO MUCH potential and we often fritter this away on a feudal based hierarchy we have imposed on ourselves. The real roots of this today is plain ego. All SIkhs, Jat or otherwise should be reflecting own what is going on in the world around us and flexibly adjust to uplift our own community instead of indulging in plain ego fuelled stratefication.

It is cool anyway, I know that any oppression will only last for a while anyway before God himself wil cause it to destroy itself. But that being said, I think Sikhs are at a crossroads. We all have deep questions to ask ourselves regarding which direction we should go in in future.

If any (sub)community has positive cultural contributions to make, share them and make this thing grow stronger. Consider giving up any perceived advantage and hegemony for something greater. That is the stuff nations are made of. I'm not sure if I expressed my point clearly here BTW.

Whoever did this, did not do the Khalistani cause or wider panth any favours. If anything it will push the message that Sikhs are indeed a savage bunch of animals that need supressing.

Given that we are days away from the 25th anniversary of 1984, I couldn't think of a dumber thing to do by a Sikh. You could understand if say KPS Gill or Brar was targetted. But this............

You couldn't have given the enemies of the Sikhs a better scoop. Like the media doesn't get enough of portraying turbanned and bearded men as fundamentalists anyway.

Drawof,

I agree that self definition is important. I have no problem with people defining themselves in this way. My issue is with the fostered hatred that is ingrained within certain strains of the Sikh community. I don't really care if someone calls themselves Jatt myself, but I do feel ashamed when I see Sikhs hating and oppressing one another. Do you undrestand this?

There is a larger economic environment that should be intelligently reviewed and the notion of caste within that should be rechecked.

I disagree strongly, I don't think this issue boils down primarily to economics, although I can see why this conclusion would be easy to draw if we just look at India/Panjab. You can see this when you meet people in the diaspora from say a Jat background, who encounters a so called low caste who is infinitely more successful than them. It is a cultural mindset, that has been drummed into them that makes them hatefilled. This is plain old supremacist thinking. Exactly like what was [is?] common in the Southern states of America by some whites towards blacks. Even a poor trailer trash white person feels they are inherently superior to say a middle class black family because of what has been pumped into their head.

The issue is with how many Jatts raise their children, this is what needs to be addressed. Not any socio-economic factors. The only economic aspect of this I can see, is the use of this engineered antipathy to ensure that so called "low castes" do not get access to land, facilities etc. to keep the Jatts "on top." Excessively materialism being at the core of modern day Jatt culture may be a contributing factor but only a small one. I think set, ancient attitudes are being play out here.

This type of unbringing has the ultimate effect of dehumanising the other and projecting and perpetuating hostilities on social interaction that needn't be so. The use of labels you described for Jats is not really comparable to the systematic hatred and oppresion towards chuhray/chumars practiced by many (not all) Jatts.

The oppression that the 'low' castes feel is being heard because they now have a voice through policies in punjab that have given them special benefits

If things are being done to level the field, than this is for the better. I also understand not that peopel from "higher" castes will resent this. Personally I feel the uplifting of people regardless of background was a core feature of our Sikh culture. So this should be happening in Panjab more than anywhere else in India! To me the alternative boils down to being part of an unfair, oppressive, backward and savage people. That isn't what Sikhi is about. You said:

The translation of that acceptance in a wider society is the issue

And that is simply down to inbred, fostered hatred which results in exclusion. It is the culture that dehumanises with notions of inherant superiority. Some of us in the diaspora have some experience with seeing this in practice with other extreme communities (such as the NF).

Jatts need to do some soul searching, and realise that many of the cultural norms in their society starkly reject and contest the egalitarian notions within Sikhi. As an individual you have to ask, which way do I want to go?

The messed up thing is, the way non-caste obsessed Sikhs have to tip toe around the issue. Sad fact is, many "higher castes" (mainly but not exclusively Jatts) behave very similar to the way white Southern trash did towards blacks in America not long ago.

Anyone who is familiar with this should know that this is an actively fostered mentallity within certain strains of "Sikhs". Teh plain fact is, if we go down this route, we may as well kiss goodbye to any attempt to portray the Sikh faith/people as progressive, tolerant and positive.

Drawof, I agree that people will find other ways to try and exclude and oppress, but that does not mean that we do not fight the current method. Maybe it is better we attack this injustice in all its forms, however it tries to manifest itself. AN ongoing battle for justice.

Barring that, I am fast losing any faith I had in Jatt Sikhs. They seem to be tearing up Panjab and the panth more than any chuhray/chumaars right now.

This is exactly why backward casteism needs to be destroyed!

Funny, I've heard comments that Sikhism is some peasant based cult by ignorant people. Weedol, insulting a culture, that hasn't even done anything to your own people is just plain rubbish. Don't do it!

Guys,

I fully understand the fear of someone exploiting the faith for money. But Bhagat is young and just experimenting. Get over it.

Trust me, you'll like some of his work, just give him time. Bhagat stay off these sites if you don't like criticism or get used to it.

if someone's even talks about petrol bomb let alone searching online to make it, you get choppers and swat team at your door ready to take you out...

If someone has to look up how to make a petrol bomb on the Internet, he must be thick.

She looks like an idiot.

Bhagat Singh!

I am up for doing Sikh history projects. Like I've mentioned, I have Bhai Sukha and Mehta's graphic novel planned.

Oye mundeya! Don't let the billi out of the thala! sssshhhhh..........

lol

Isn't it interesting how pop culture in various countries is eventually transformed into a 'religion' borrowing heavily from antecedents while maligning the very sources it plagiarises and representing itself as the original gospel truth and not some new pop invention?

Do you mind elaborating on that, because you lost me there brother.

Flippin hell Ishraqi. Have you got a good word for anyone?

dalsingh101 wrote:

Even if they were introduced to the ideas of Marcus Garvey, rap culture killed the Afro-American movement transfroming a community that could wake up into a living joke. And no, Obama doesn't count as a victory of the Afro-American movement.

How are they a joke say compared to the Latino community? I'm just trying to understand your train of thought. Granted, rap is not what it used to be. I think younger people just take free-er mediums such as Internet for granted and not realise that the not so long ago, the only thing you would really hear is the biased voice of goray pretending to know everything and be right about everything.

Rap killed the afro-american movement that Malcolm X started.

That's a bold statement brother. A lot of people (granted older ones) will say that rap introduced them to their history with references to Marcus Garvey for example.

To further compare an art which positvely enlivened a nation to one that has become the scurge of mankind and cause of animalistic behaviour, well...

Well, you know many Pakistanis feel that Bhangra and Panjabi culture in general does just that, bring out animalistic base instincts.

Ishraqi I agree with much of your post (very well written BTW!), but there are some elements I question.

People like that exist in all second generation communities that have adopted this global trend of immitating the Afro-American Lumpenproletariat and its sub-culture. It's not just a Sikh problem. You'll find them among Hindus and Muslims too. The problem is complex: it's the decay of the education systems in the West, the low social and educational level of the migrant communities and the massive influence of Anglo-Saxon global media with the trash culture it vehiculates and that includes this Afro-American rap "culture". It affects all minority communites and even mainstream youth now.

I know rap today can be foolish, but originally it provided a voice for people culturally marginalised by the mainstream Anglo-Saxon/Jewish dominated media. There was much conscious rap produced not so long ago that had a very positively empowering effect on some the people who were most vulnerable in a very biased America. A part of hip hop (at least the original type) is simply Afro-American folk culture or expression. It was not all about biatches, hos and bling. In the late 80s/early 90s it was also a vehicle for a strong black consciousness movement (see Jungle Bros, Public Enemy etc.). Me personally, I enjoy Bhangra, as part of my cultural heritage and outsiders could equally attack it for being "low brow" and "vulgar". The truth is that people like Kuldeep Manak were producing the equivalent of "gansgta rap" a long time before blacks, albeit with some variation.

What reinforces it is that apology of stupidity provided by religious groups that disencourage intellectual activity. The argument that education was not important for a person like Bhagat Dhanna makes actually no sense. First of all in the society of his time he was not expected to be educated. His task was ascribed to him by the fact that he was born in a caste.

This agree with. I also note that the discouragers of intellectual activity really like to bandy about the famous versus by Guru Nanak, about having mounds of books but no spiritual knowledge as some sort of justification for being semi/uneducated. They use it like a defensive shield.

The question you should ask yourselves is not wether this is a appropriate language to talk about a Sikh martyr. It clearly isn't appropriate. The question is: what are the reasons behind it and how do you fight it.

Nicely put, but until it is rectified, we shouldn't be blind to the fact that people may genuinely have a relatively (and I use the word relatively very specifically here), positive attitude to that which they are discussing with their common vulgar vernacular. The writing under discussion is a case in point in my mind.