singh2

His question is do you know from where this fateh comes?

A sikh for life says that vidya sagar granth is same as Dasam granth. It is not . http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/scriptures/bavanja-kavi.html According to Bhai Santokh Singh, Sn Gur Pratap Suraj Granth, the entire work was collected into a single anthology called Vidya Sar or Vidya Sagar, lit. ocean of knowledge. ocean of knowledge. The poet even mentions the weight of the whole mass of manuscripts nine maunds or approximately 350 kilograms. Whatever the quantity of the material, the entire treasure was lost consequent upon the evacuation of Anandpur in December 1705, most of it in the flooded Sarsa stream. Only small fragments and copies of some of the manuscripts already prepared and carried out of Anandpur by the authors themselves or by others survived.

Waheguruseeker I know your intentions. These are to derail this discussion as you do on SPN. In Punjabi there is a saying that apni galli which hee kutta sher hunda hai.You are not in your galli. Your tactics of stalling the debate are not going to work here,. Take deep breath and relax.

Is calling someone lecherous is respectful? So that is the standrd of your gursikhi. All you have done so far is indulge in polemics over personal issues. It seems you have nothing else except using derogatory langugae for others.

To sum up discussion with a sikh for life, all he has done is indulging in meaningless rhetorics so far . He writes one or two liners. He calls Dasam granth a Samund sagar and vidya sagar Granth. That is far from Correct. He seems not to be aware of Dasam granth history and internal evidence. Repeated requests for refrences have fallen on deaf ears. The fact is that Dasam Granth is already accepted scripture of sikhs. It ws given acceptance because it was from the pen of tenth master. The sikh history testifies to that. Below is a report of Charles malcolm of parkash of Dasam granth alongside SGGS ji during gurmattas. Those who are not able to digest that are not sikhs and are like sindhi Hindus who do not follow khalsa rehat. Note: The following is an excerpt from a book, Sketch of the Sikhs, a singular nation in the province of Penjab,written by Sir John Malcolm* in 1812. John Malcolm’s work is one of the rarest firsthand information recorded by a western historian on the lifestyle, belief systems and traditions of the Sikhs in Punjab during the 18th century . Guru-mata When Gurmata or great national council, is called, (as it always is, or ought to be, when any imminent danger threatens the country, or any large expedition is to be undertaken) all the Sikh chiefs assemble at Amritsar. The assembly, which is called the Guru-mata, is convened by the Acalis; and when the chiefs meet upon this solemn occasion, it is concluded that all private animosities cease, and that every main sacrifices his personal feelings at the shrine of the general good; and, actuated by principles of pure patriotism, thinks of nothing but the interests of the religion, and commonwealth, to which he belongs. When the chiefs and principal leaders are seated, the Adi-Granth and Dasama Padshah ka Granth are placed before them. They all bend their heads before these scriptures, and exclaim, Wa! Guruji ka Khalsa! Wa! Guruji ki Fateh! A great quantity of cakes, made of wheat, butter, and sugar, are then placed before the volumes of their sacred writings, and covered with a cloth. These holy cakes, which are in commemoration of the injunction of Nanac, to eat and to give to others to eat, next receive the salutation of the assembly, who then rise, and the Acalis pray aloud, while the musicians play. The Acalis, then the prayers are finished, desire the council to be seated. They sit down, and the cakes being uncovered, are eaten of by all classes of Sikhs: those distinctions of original tribes, which are, on occasions, kept up, being on this occasion laid aside, in token of their general and complete union in one cause. The Acalis then exclaim: "Sirdars! (Chiefs) this is Guru-mata!" on which prayers are again said aloud. The chiefs, after this sit closer, and say to each other: "The sacred Granth is betwixt us, let us swear by our scripture to forget all internal disputes, and to be united." This moment of religious fervor and ardent patriotism, is taken to reconcile all animosities. They then proceed to consider the danger with whcih they are threatened, to settle the best plans for averting it, and to choose the generals who are to lead their armies against the common enemy. The first Guru-mata was assembled by Guru Govinid; and the latest was called in 1805, when the British army pursued Holkar into the Penjab. (pages. 120-123) ________________________ *Sir John Malcolm (May 2, 1769 ‑ 1833) was a Scottish soldier, statesman, and historian. He held various distinguished posts, being Ambassador to Persia, Resident of Gwalior (1803-1804) and Governor of Bombay 1827-1830. He was the author of several valuable works regarded as authorities, viz., Sketch of the Sikhs, a singular nation in the province of Penjab (1812), A History of Persia (1815), Memoir of Central India(1823), Political History of India from 1784 to 1823 (1826), and Life of Lord Clive (1836)

waheguruseeker What sort of a sikh you claim to be who does no know how to behave on a public domain. You are liar and that too habitual and shoudl be awarded degree for lying.

waheguruseeker ji Have you shown me where is khande bate da amrit written in SGGS ji? Stop blame game as usual. Start a separate thread and i will show you.

You have been told previously that vidysagar granth and samund sagar granth are different. You are writing that again deliberately to confuse the issue. You have also not provided any reference for your assertion.i asked for that. Stop indulging in propagnda, If you think that these granth are same provide reference otherwise you are a liar. Here is a reference from my side. http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/52_cour...ru_Gobind_Singh According to Bhai Santokh Singh, author Sri Gur Pratap Suraj Granth, the entire work was collected into a single anthology called Vidya Sar or Vidya Sagar, meaning ocean of knowledge. The poet even mentions the weight of the whole mass of manuscripts nine maunds or approximately 350 kilograms. Whatever the quantity of the material, the entire treasure was lost consequent upon the evacuation of Anandpur in December 1705, most of it in the flooded Sirsa stream. Only small fragments and copies of some of the manuscripts already prepared and carried out of Anandpur by the authors themselves or by others survived. Unquote Instead of talking stupidly by giving one liner or two liner can we come to the facts as availability of manuscripts and internal evidence.That is the issue you should be debating instead of harping on fictional conspiracy.Also see what is the purpose of myth. If there is a myth there is moral lesson also. The fact is that dasam granth was in parkash in gurmattas alongside SGGS ji. That means it was accepted by Guru panth who have higher spiritual life than a few heretics of kala fghana and singh sabha canada cult. Have you anything to rebut that. if so give reference here instead of one and two liners.

It makes perfect sense if you do not take one line and quote that out of context.

Glimpse of the oldest available beerh of Sri Dasam Granth from 1698 AD E-mail Print PDF Glimpse of the Oldest Available Beerh of Sri Dasam GranthContents from the rare handwritten beerh of Sri Dasam Granth compiled in 1755 Bikrami (1698 A.D.), one year before the formation of Khalsa. The date when this historic beerh was compiled is given in the introductory paragraph. This beerh is preserved at Takhat Sri Patna Sahib. It is noteworthy that Guru Gobind Singh Sahib’s bani "Zafarnamah" which was written in 1704 A.D., six years after this beerh was compiled, does not feature in this beerh. Also noteworthy is the name of the granth that appears on the top, “Patshah Dasven Ju Ka Granth” (The Granth of the Tenth Master). The year mentioned on this handwritten beerh is also significant because Bhai Kesar Singh Chibber too in Bansavalinama records that Guru Gobind Singh Sahib had himself compiled the Granth in 1755 Bikrami (1698 A.D.), and this Chhota Granth[1] was very dear to him. Evidently this is one of the oldest beerhs which Guru Sahib himself compiled before the formation of the Khalsa. Later compilations of the complete banees of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib is attributed to Bhai Mani Singh. ਛੋਟਾ ਗਰੰਥ ਜੀ ਜਨਮੇ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਕੇ ਧਾਮ। ਸੰਮਤ ਸਤਾਰਾਂ ਸੈ ਪਚਵੰਜਾ, ਬਹੁਤ ਖਿਡਾਵੇ ਲਿਖਾਰੇ ਨਾਮ। ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਸੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਹਥੀਂ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਖਿਡਾਇਆ। ਸਿਖਾਂ ਕੀਤੀ ਅਰਦਾਸ, 'ਜੀ ਅਗਲੇ (ਭਾਵ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ) ਨਾਲਿ ਚਾਹੀਏ ਰਲਾਇਆ'। ਬਚਨ ਕੀਤਾ, 'ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੈ ਉਹ, ਏਹ ਅਸਾਡੀ ਖੇਡ ਹੈ।' ਨਾਲਿ ਨ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਆਹਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ, ਕਉਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਦ। ਸੋ ਦੋਨੋ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰ ਜਾਨੋ। ਵਡਾ ਹੈ ਟਿਕਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਟਕੇ ਪੋਥੀਆਂ ਪੁਤਰ ਪੋਤਰੇ ਕਿਰ ਪਛਾਨੋ (ਬੰਸਾਵਲੀਨਾਮਾ, ਭਾਈ ਕੇਸਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਛਿੱਬਰ) [1] Kesar Singh Chibber calls the granth as Chotta Granth (small granth) in relation to the status of Sri Guru Granth Sahib patna-sahib-beerh The first paragraph is transcribed below: ੴਸ੍ਰੀਵਾਹਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ ਸ੍ਰੀਭਗਉਤੀਜੂਸਹਾਇ ਤਤਕਰਾ ਸੁਚੇਪੱਤ੍ਰਸ੍ਰੀਗ੍ਰਿੰਥਜੂਕਾ Glimpse of the oldest available beerh of Sri Dasam Granth from 1698 AD E-mail Print PDF Glimpse of the Oldest Available Beerh of Sri Dasam GranthContents from the rare handwritten beerh of Sri Dasam Granth compiled in 1755 Bikrami (1698 A.D.), one year before the formation of Khalsa. The date when this historic beerh was compiled is given in the introductory paragraph. This beerh is preserved at Takhat Sri Patna Sahib. It is noteworthy that Guru Gobind Singh Sahib’s bani "Zafarnamah" which was written in 1704 A.D., six years after this beerh was compiled, does not feature in this beerh. Also noteworthy is the name of the granth that appears on the top, “Patshah Dasven Ju Ka Granth” (The Granth of the Tenth Master). The year mentioned on this handwritten beerh is also significant because Bhai Kesar Singh Chibber too in Bansavalinama records that Guru Gobind Singh Sahib had himself compiled the Granth in 1755 Bikrami (1698 A.D.), and this Chhota Granth[1] was very dear to him. Evidently this is one of the oldest beerhs which Guru Sahib himself compiled before the formation of the Khalsa. Later compilations of the complete banees of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib is attributed to Bhai Mani Singh. ਛੋਟਾ ਗਰੰਥ ਜੀ ਜਨਮੇ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਕੇ ਧਾਮ। ਸੰਮਤ ਸਤਾਰਾਂ ਸੈ ਪਚਵੰਜਾ, ਬਹੁਤ ਖਿਡਾਵੇ ਲਿਖਾਰੇ ਨਾਮ। ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਸੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਹਥੀਂ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਖਿਡਾਇਆ। ਸਿਖਾਂ ਕੀਤੀ ਅਰਦਾਸ, 'ਜੀ ਅਗਲੇ (ਭਾਵ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ) ਨਾਲਿ ਚਾਹੀਏ ਰਲਾਇਆ'। ਬਚਨ ਕੀਤਾ, 'ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੈ ਉਹ, ਏਹ ਅਸਾਡੀ ਖੇਡ ਹੈ।' ਨਾਲਿ ਨ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਆਹਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ, ਕਉਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਦ। ਸੋ ਦੋਨੋ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰ ਜਾਨੋ। ਵਡਾ ਹੈ ਟਿਕਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਟਕੇ ਪੋਥੀਆਂ ਪੁਤਰ ਪੋਤਰੇ ਕਿਰ ਪਛਾਨੋ (ਬੰਸਾਵਲੀਨਾਮਾ, ਭਾਈ ਕੇਸਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਛਿੱਬਰ) [1] Kesar Singh Chibber calls the granth as Chotta Granth (small granth) in relation to the status of Sri Guru Granth Sahib patna-sahib-beerh The first paragraph is transcribed below: ੴਸ੍ਰੀਵਾਹਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ ਸ੍ਰੀਭਗਉਤੀਜੂਸਹਾਇ ਤਤਕਰਾ ਸੁਚੇਪੱਤ੍ਰਸ੍ਰੀਗ੍ਰਿੰਥਜੂਕਾ

I did not say that. I said that guru gobind singh ji was preparing sikhs for a major battle. There is no difference between our Gurus. So stop pitting one guru sahib against the other. In other words sikhism evolved and Guru sahib did what was right for sikhism by writing Dsam granth sahib. Why do not you talk about history of Dasam granth. There are manuscripts of Dasam granth sahib of 1696 and 1698 with signature of guru sahib and handwritten pages by him. One is on the internet now. That trashes your theory that dasam granth may not be written by Guru sahib. Still you call his writings as promoting sex. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Stories are told to impart lesson and SGGS has also fictional stories throughout. Do you reject some parts pf SGGS and follow others? Have you seen the quotes above . In what way these are stories? Stories do not form a major part as you say. Show us by giving refrences. You have not replied to me regarding your theory of haddith? you are also to show us also various other refrences like showing khande bate di pahul in SGGS ji.

Let us agree for the time being what you say. Wherein it is written to take khande di pahul in SGGS ji?

There are certain banis in Dasam granth that are Yudh mai. Guru sahib took those banis from Puranas and completely altered those texts to bring those in line with sikh philosophy. In other words Guru sahib Changed dimensions of those deities and put those under the command of akal purakh. Thus he lowered their status from absolute God as Hindus considered them and made them mortals. He also added his own compositions to these compositions that were not there in original puranas. Example is Yudh parbandh of krishna avtar that forms a major part of Krishna avtar. In that Krishna is shown being defeated by kharag singh even though krishna takes support of moghals. Exactly that happened when Hindu Rajas took help of Moghals in future. Some vested interests whose job is to do porpaganda say that Guru ji is shown to worship devis etc. That is a complete lie. When asked for to give refrence they have none. That is what A_sikh_ for_ life is doing. Below is a verse from CHandi Charitra showing Chandi as a creation of akal purakh. ਮੁਖ ਭਾਗ 4 मुख भाग 4 CHAPTER 4 ਚੰਡੀ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ (ੳਕਤਿ ਬਿਲਾਸ) चंडी चरित्र (उकति बिलास) NAME OF THE BANI. ੴ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹਿ ॥ ੴ वाहिगुरू जी की फतहि ॥ The Lord is one and the Victory is of the Lord. ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਜੀ ਸਹਾਇ ॥ स्री भगउती जी सहाइ ॥ xxxx ਅਥ ਚੰਡੀ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਉਕਤਿ ਬਿਲਾਸ ਲਿਖਯਤੇ ॥ अथ चंडी चरित्र उकति बिलास लिखयते ॥ Now begin the extraordinary feats from the Life of Chandi: ਪਾਤਸਾਹੀ ੧੦ पातसाही १० From the Holy Mouth of the Tenth King (Guru) ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ स्वैया SWAYYA ਆਦਿ ਅਪਾਰ ਅਲੇਖ ਅਨੰਤ ਅਕਾਲ ਅਭੇਖ ਅਲਖ ਅਨਾਸਾ ॥ आदि अपार अलेख अनंत अकाल अभेख अलख अनासा ॥ The Lord is Primal, Infinite, Account less, Boundless, Deathless, Garbless, Incomprehensible and Eternal. ਕੈ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤ ਦਏ ਸ੍ਰੁਤਿ ਚਾਰ ਰਜੋ ਤਮ ਸਤ ਤਿਹੂੰ ਪੁਰ ਬਾਸਾ ॥ कै सिव सकत दए स्रुति चार रजो तम सत तिहूं पुर बासा ॥ He created Shiva-Shakti, forur Vedas and three modes of maya and Pervades in three worlds. ਦਿਉਸ ਨਿਸਾ ਸਸਿ ਸੂਰ ਕੈ ਦੀਪਕ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਰਚੀ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸਾ ॥ दिउस निसा ससि सूर कै दीपक स्रिसटि रची पंच तत प्रकासा ॥ He created day and night, the lamps of sun and moon and the whole world with five elements. ਬੈਰ ਬਢਾਇ ਲਰਾਇ ਸੁਰਾਸੁਰ ਆਪਹਿ ਦੇਖਤ ਬੈਠ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥੧॥ बैर बढाइ लराइ सुरासुर आपहि देखत बैठ तमासा ॥१॥ He extended enmity and fight between the gods and demons and Himself seated (on His Throne) scans it.1. Chandi Charitra ukti bilas, Dasam Granth

These are ploys of such people and are deception tools to get foothold. he was heretic before that and is heretic now.

Waheguruseeker ji i was participating in that discussion. You are lying here. There was no apology asked for nor.tendered. To divert attention from the topic you paly such tricks very often. Can you post that here?

Guru Hargbindsahib fought battles and won. But it was Guru gobind singh who carried that task forward on a bigger scale. There is no difference between two guru sahibs. This question of yours tell us that neither you have read dasam Granth nor you know anything about this. All you know write are heresays from vested interests. You are repeating those heresays in one or two liners. I have to open your closed eyes by quoting from Dasam granth sahib that you say are objectionable.That will bare your propaganda. Tell us in what way it is anti gurmat.

Certainly i am reading your replies. Only issue i did not touch upon was your mention of Haddith/hadees among muslims. What is khande bate di pahul in sikhism? If you do not believe in Dasam granth, it is certainly a verbal command of Guru sahib that we follow. Your mention of Dasam granth as sexual stories is nothing but deliberate attempt to discredit Bani of Guru sahib. you may remember there is a word for those who do not recognise their father. How do you like bani of Dasam Garnth sahib given below. A noted historian wrote these lines are the best among any religious scripture of the world. ਖਗ ਖੰਡ ਬਿਹੰਡੰ ਖਲ ਦਲ ਖੰਡੰ ਅਤਿ ਰਣ ਮੰਡੰ ਬਰ ਬੰਡੰ ॥ खग खंड बिहंडं खल दल खंडं अति रण मंडं बर बंडं ॥ The sword chops well, chops the forces of scoundrels and this mighty one bedecks and glorifies the battlefield. ਭੁਜ ਦੰਡ ਅਖੰਡੰ ਤੇਜ ਪ੍ਰਚੰਡੰ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਮੰਡੰ ਭਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੰ ॥ भुज दंड अखंडं तेज प्रचंडं जोति अमंडं भान प्रभं ॥ It is the unbreakable staff of the arm, it has the powerful luster and its light even bedims the radiance of the sum. ਸੁਖ ਸੰਤਾ ਕਰਣੰ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਦਰਣੰ ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਹਰਣੰ ਅਸਿ ਸਰਣੰ ॥ सुख संता करणं दुरमति दरणं किलबिख हरणं असि सरणं ॥ It brings happiness to the saints, mashing the vicious ones, it is the destroyer of sins and I and under its refuge. ਜੈ ਜੈ ਜਗ ਕਾਰਣ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਬਾਰਣ ਮਮ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਰਣ ਜੈ ਤੇਗੰ ॥੨॥ जै जै जग कारण स्रिसटि उबारण मम प्रतिपारण जै तेगं ॥२॥ Hail, hail to the cause of the world, saviour of the universe, it is my preserver, I hail its victory. 2. Bachitra natak, dasam granth Do not write two liners and then run away. Give us references from sikh history to prove your point.

Waheguruseeker Since when you have started thinking that you have become master of otehrs fate. Who are you to take anybody to task? Your look out regarding teachings of SGGS are perverted. You have no knowledge of SGGS also. Start a new thread on that and let us see and we will prove how skewed is you interpretation of SGGS also. By the way what banis you read in nitnem?

waheguruseeker writes in this thread It is well known tha whaeguruseeker is a resident of USA .How come he states that he is from UK. Moderators need to look if one person is operating simulataneously under two different names.

How above is related to dasam granth sahib. Good to note that you have bibek budhi. Why do not you apply that in understanding Dasam bani awhso. Those who have bibek budhi do not name call any scripture. Site you are quoting is having many many quotes of Dasam granth also.

They have no shame in doing that. They are programmed to carry out propaganda thus reduce the respect for dasam bani in sikhs minds. They know nothing about Dasam granth sahib. All he writes is one liner for Dasam granth.

For moderators I think it is proper if discussion regarding Charitropakhayan is held in relevant thread. the tendency here seems to be run from one topic to another so that no useful purpose is served. I will also request you to start a new thread where wahegruseeker can have discussion on SGGS and we will show how his views are anti Gurmat. He calls karma. reincarnation, nam jap etc as Hindu concepts. let him not spoil Dasam granth threads.

Waheguruseeker You name yourself waheguruseeker and yet say that waheguru is not Gurmantra of sikhs. For persons like you Guru sahib has written ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੀਣਸ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੰਤ ਜਨਮ ਭ੍ਰਸਟਣਹ ॥ ਕੂਕਰਹ ਸੂਕਰਹ ਗਰਧਭਹ ਕਾਕਹ ਸਰਪਨਹ ਤੁਲਿ ਖਲਹ ॥੩੩॥: Gur mantra heenasah jo praanee dhrigant janam bhrasatanah: Kookarah sookarah garadhbhah kaakah sarapanah tuli khalah ||33||: Those persons who lacks the Gurumantra are cursed contaminated is his life. That blockhead is just a dog, a pig, a jackass, a crow, a snake ||33|| sggs 1357. You do not know anything of SGGS ji also. all you know is Ninda and name calling .

You need to to know that Samundar sagar granth and vidyasagar Granth are different. Show us where it is written they are same. Here is what Dasam granth says on khalsa rehat Tenth master on sikh rehat Nishane sikhi ein panj kaaf Hargiz na bashid ein panj muaf Signs of sikhi are fives kakkas None is permitted to ignore these Kara Kardo kachh kangha bidan Bila kes hech ast jumlah nishan Know this that without kara,kirpan ,kacch,kangha and Hair all other symbols are of no value Haraf hai kaat ast ein panj kaaf bi danand bavar na goyam khilaf The five symbols i have described Are very important Hukka hazamat halalo haram bachise hina kardaroo saihah faam Hukkah ,shaving, halal and haram are not permissible in sikhism To dye one's hair is like blackening one's face asfotak kabit Dasam granth sahib Instaed of changing the subject repeatedly focus on thread on hand. That is Charitras 21, 22 and 23 that you quote frequently to attach with guru ji's life. I have posted many details of that charitra tarshing your view. may i get reply for that.