Morpheous

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? N30 you said Yes but, when some hindus are praying to their statutes, some of them are doing it with full prem and charda! is it right though? Also, the time they take to make that food the could acutally use that time to do more effective things, like feed a poor person who actually needs the food? Mr Singh, i think you are right for questioning, without questioning practices sikhs would be more messed up than they are now. Guru Nanak questioned the Hindus when they practiced rituals, it should be in our nature too to question practices. So again N30 you gotta see where Mr Singh coming from, hunna ? Question: is bring the Guru Granth Sahib ji food to eat practical and within the teachings of Guru Sahib ?

I think to some extent we have to make an effort to respect the safety rules and regulations in the work place, for some places the Bana would not pass health and safety regulations(HSE) - ie Nuclear Power Plant, Steel Factory, the ARMy etc what do you think Singh ?

Commander its not FEAR the issue i was trying to get across, i was merely expressing how ignorant some people are of us. I think the BBC has something about Sikhs of their site; http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/f...s/sikhism.shtml It would be good if they could do something for April 2004 !

Lets write a petition to the BBC!

Rupz I had a similar experience today, i walked onto the tube, and everyone kept staring at me and trying to get away from me- infact this woman pushed me - she was old so i couldnt exactly start doing martial arts maneuvers on her in the middle of the train! maybe i had bad BO :roll: ? or they thought i had C4 packed into my pug Then i thought not everyone knows about sikhs! even in England WE MUST ACT, IDEAS FORUM PLEASE.

Nirgun, i totally respect your view and apologise if i came across as a ankary sarcastic prat. But sometimes be careful what you read, just because its about a 'Sant' does not mean its true, yes there are interesting books out there which are indeed insipirational - sometimes times it helps to relate everything you read back to the mool mantra - if it does not fit, really scrutinise it! Sorry if humour in the previous post offended you Harpreet

Sorry i forgot; Sources: Guru Granth Sahib Ji p1024, The Matrix, Self- Relisation Volume 1 by MS Cheema, , The True Name Vol 1 by Osho Rajneesh

Afternoon Infernal Monk I still struggle to see why your post has been locked, All Infernal Monk has stated that the Guru's were human. We all agree with that don't we ? Infernal Monk - i think if you watch Matrix 1, at the end when Neo's comes back to life - he see's everything for what it is - i e 0's and 1's manifesting different forms Similary Guru Ji says 'Ik hai fir anek hai' - Jaap Sahib There is unity in diversity and diversity unity We understand this concept - but we have not REALIZED it, you see the difference ? The Gurus had realised it - so they had blended back into the ocean of nirankar - hence they REALISED that everything they did was under the 'hukum' of 'har' the existance. The cloud of ego disppeared - they became 1 For example X to the power of 0 = 1 The Power - which represents ego became 0, hence they became one with the existance - (sort of similar to Neo in Matrix 1) So we can say that the Guru were God like on the basis that The Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our Guru - bringing us from spiritual darkness to light (if applied in correct manner) - Many accept that it is written by Humans who had X to the Power of 0 = 1 They were God like in the most purest way Humanly possible - right? They had become one with the ocean - they were ever growing To say they were God is right and wrong at the same time, it depends on how you look at it On a personal note i dont bother trying to understand Har(too big for my mind), it, i dont want to put the whole ocean into a cup its impossible. But if i was to take a pure cupful out of the ocean, then analyse its properties - they will reflect the properties of the ocean - they wont be the whole ocean itself in that cup but the properties will be present there? Can you see how the Guru's and Har are related? Okie.... now, we now have to get our cup of water back into the ocean - the sad thing about the situation is that we dont REALISE that we are part of the ocean ALREADY, a cloud of EGO prevents us from doing so( one could compare this to Matrix 1, the people are part of the matrix which ifundementally constitutes of 0's and 1's, but just dont simply realise it!) Guru Ji gives us formulas to REALISE this by uncovering to us 1000's of meditations in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Don't you feel bless already? The properties of the ocean are available to you in form of Guru Granth Sahib ji, in fact it even offers us formulas to REALISE har! A paradox then shoots to mind, we are so rich( in the context of the scriptures(guru) available to us) but at the same time so poor. Why are we so poor? I'll be blunt, we are TOO THICK to realise what sitting there just under our nose. We take it for granted. The people that made this forum obviously felt that there was a need for the sikhs to know about this. I thank them greatly for creating such a forum. I hope we as a young Sangat keep the primary goal in mind of X to the Power of 0 = 1. Gurfateh Harpreet

Gurfateh Sangat First does Sant = Saint ? Nirgun's conduct implies he believes Sant = Saint So japuji Sahib, Pauri 24 Vadia sahib Ucha Thao Ouchae upar ucha thou Evad oocha hovae koe Tis ochae ko janae koe So you go on to say Therefore basically to call someone a Bhram Giani, you have be 1 yourself, because you must be as high if not higher than them to understand and measure thier spiritual earnings. Nirgun, do you know the consequences of your statement? nirgun i would like to do your darshan since 1) You have the ability to label a Bhram Giani 2) More impressively, without even meeting him. Please PM me so we can meet up. Thank You Harpreet PS Moderator, Im Serious.

Seriously ?

Gurfateh I was reading the complaints section - where there was an arguement between SPBOSS and Lallesh I URGE YOU TO TAKE THE FOLLOWING VERY SERIOUSLY: If universities find out about the polictical nature of SPBOSS they will have the right ban funding all sikh socities(who affiliate with BOSS) leading to a possible collapse University Sikh Societies all over the UK. why? because its ultra vires, against all Student Union Constitutional policy and against the law. The current stand on charities in English Law is that charites cannot be of political motive; 'the notion of charity has been taken by English Law to exclude any attempt to promote policitical purposes, even where the end-goal of such a policitical policy is aimed at the benefit of the public community. Where the goal is avowedly political, the courts will not uphold it as a valid charitable purpose(National Anti-Vivisection Society v IRC(1940)AC31) ' Hudson, Equity and Trusts, page 821 The political motives of the 'new boss' organisation could lead it too losing that title! if they were to be investigated. The aim of this post is to make you guyz AWARE OF THE SITUATION at hand. Please speak carefully when respresenting an organisation, If not for yourself, for the SIKH YOUTH. To Boss; You may speak with Heart and passion - but what about understanding the importance of complying with University Constitutional Regulations and English law ? Harpreet

Gurfateh people I stumbled across this on the net - sent to me by a friend - for no appararent reason; http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/a...di/vpopia1.html Thoughts please Harpreet

Mr Sher Singh In response to drinking - no Contrdiction - maybe i must be wrong. But i can still see it, they are implying on one hand to reach god there are many paths - they are all equal At the same time they are saying Sikhism is the only path to god realisation Therefore the are confusing thier message. They are implied contravening statements. 'Engrossed in hate', thats a bit strong ! but your entitled to your own opinon and i respect that totally. I just wanted to ask the question of the balancing act between Awareness v Misinformation Instead of answering that question you have started a personal attack. From which i withdraw any participation. Mr Sher Singh i apologise for my comments. Maff Karo Gurfateh

Okie, i have re- read Mr Singh's Comments - i think this site could be of value if it was re -written One of the main themes in the site seems to be awareness to the Sikh Youth about conversions - this i agree must be addressed. If they simply re - thought their approach to the situation - maybe they could get the same message across without so many mistakes ? Yes it is important for us to make the Sikh Youth Aware about conversions but should this be at the price of misinforming the teachings of the Guru? Many of our fellow readers would say no this, and in my opinion, quite rightly. The crux matter is Awareness vs misinformation Should we even have to participate in a balancing act between the two?

Mr Singh In response to the contradiction On one hand they are saying that all religions led to the same path - God Simulataneously they are saying God realisation is only obtained on the sikh path. This is a paradox - Is that clear ? Some mistakes Mr Singh?!!!! there are fundemental flaws in the site! ie, as discussed in previous posts. The translation of the same page of quran doneby a wahabis and non-wahabis differ. Wahabis take things literally, and thier translations are different to that of non-wahabis. So yes in that sense its very important. Harpreet

Pheena that was cool definition - Just one quick comment - if the goal is to have no identity, then was is the purpose of becoming a Nihung, Sevapanthi, Udhasis etc ? Can you please distinguish between metal identity and physical identity and how to keep them separate?

Gurfateh Seems like people are still feeling the aftershocks of the Keski thread. Going back to the issues raised in www.whyichosesikhism.com i have found the following lines which seem a bit iffy. 1. The second line on the homepage reads Sikhism is the only faith which shows the path to realisation of Akaal (timeless god) Then if you click on http://www.whyichosesikhism.com/?p=answers&ans=4 You will find Q: If the Gurus said that all religions lead to the same path, you'll be ok whichever religion you're in. A: It is a TOTALLY FALSE argument that Sikhism believes all paths lead to the same goal and thus all religions are equal: Is that a straight forward contradiction or what?! 2. On the same page it goes further to say that Without naam, no one can find God. GurbaaNee is clear about this fact – True say but then they say; - So, unless someone receives Gurmat Naam from Guru Nanak, there is no liberation. Does this not contradict the answer to the question on the same page? 3. This website is dedicated to the prevention of the systematic coercion, manipulation and abuse that has been targeted towards our sisters in the Sikh community in recent years. Did they not just manipulate and abuse information and give it to our sisters – evidence of this is above(point 1) 4. We only use direct quotes from the koran and koranic scholars – these scholar are most likely to be wahabis – not all Muslims wahabis, they should have pointed this out. 5. The questions are answered in full and leave no doubt regarding the perfection of Sikhism - This line wraps the notion of contradictions and paradoxes present within the site

Gurfateh people The Definition of Sikh : Article I Any human being who faithfully believes in i. One Immortal Being - Definition ; noun, 1 existence (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/being?view=uk) Im just wondering about 'does not owe any allegiance to any other religion' is a sikh ? What about bhagats that were muslim sufis? They are muslims but can they be sikhs at the same time ? This may sounds silly but what if your a muslim who lives like a sufi and reads gurbani, and believes the ten gurus? Where would you fall then ? The Oxford English Dictionary definition of allegiance is as follows 'noun loyalty of a subordinate to a superior or of an individual to a group or cause' Im just enquiring as to the fairness to this statement... I have no views yet do to lack of knowledge and information. Anyone ?

thanx for the correction niranjana !

Miss Kaur Khalsa, Personally, i think that the Amrit ceremony was not the CREATION of the Khalsa. Anything created can be destroyed. If that is the beginning of a creation then it must have an end. The Amrit ceremony(1699) is viewed by some, such as myself as REALIZATION of the khalsa. The truth has been there for eternity, and the khalsa were supposed to be a realisation of this concept. Additonally, i do not believe once you have taken physical amrit - as people do at smagams, that you have become a Khalsa automatically. Khalsa - can be interpreted to mean pure - through purity of thought and purity if action then you are going towards being a khalsa. Even then if you call yourself a khalsa - would you not be admitting to yourself and others that you have become pure - can you sense the slight egoism in that? Sikhism - again i would have to agree with MandipUK that it has always existed, the search for the truth has always been there. 'It was not known before' - are you talking about Amrit or the rehats ? In relation to the rehats - you look at them carefully and you will find that the concepts within them ARE KNOWN TO MAN BEFORE. Amrit - timelessness - realization of 'ad sach jugaad sach habee such naanak hosee bee sach, a step in the path to relisation of the Existance. Once again surrender of will(illusion) and relization are also present in buddhism(pre guru times) and Islam(Surrender yourself to the will of Allah) - it was known before The problem is that generally people love to think in boxes - i am a sikh - i should do this - i shouldnt do this - bad sikhs do this - good sikhs do this- one could even call it 'a unitary approach' based on lack of knowledge and insecurity. A further example; my religion says this, your religion says this, your religion is wrong therefore my religion is the best. Evidence on this mentality is readily available on www.whyichoosesikhism.com Ms Khalsa ?

Ill have to agree with you on those points MandipUK, an old man once told me that if you are ever encounter issues in your life concerning your sikhi, refer back to the Mool Mantra and first sloak. MandipUK seems to have done this successfully. Any views on the contrary?

Read my post carefully Bhai Sahib ji you have taken my point out of context - especially the last one you have mentioned above. My intention was not to debate with you, but to share views so that we could work our way to the right answer. Since you have already cemented your views and approached my comments as if your were in a debate. I withdraw from your 'debate' on the basis that i dont think im qualified enough to argue on your level Humble apologies Harpreet

What does guru ji need from you - he already has everything.. you existing before was an illusion. mr Bai Sahib, please PM me where we can discuss this further. Also will you reply in relation to the site(whyichoosesikhism) the other points put forward, it seems you have selectively economised your reply. Before this becomes a battle of 'who knows more' instead of 'how can we work together to get to the right answer?' . please reply to my PM Gurfateh

First 'Bhai Sahib' i disagree with your mentality towards 'giving your head' When 'you' give 'your' head do 'you' make the active choice. Well, it is in this writers contention that the answer is a blunt....no. Y? Because if 'you' exist and 'you' make the choices, what have 'you' given ? Your version of giving your head is based on 'choice' - which is dillusional - because ifyou still exist how can he -its underlined by ankhar because 'you still exist'. In my opinion its a game of love, when you are in love with someone - ie your wife when she comes into the room all your attention is on her, your mind is full of her thought - you are 'mindful' of your wife - you do not need to remind yourself of remembering her, y? because you have developed a thirst for her - using this concept - some people are 'mindful' of har- the existance - this is the meaning of true simran - mindfullness. So what does this have to do with Amrit - well in order for you to take TRUE Amrit 'you, i, me, my' must not exist - it clearly does in Bhai Sahibs View. people with this approach towards Guru usually end up saying to mentally to other Singhs - 'ive given my head to sikh, what have you given'. ask yourself truly IS THAT HEAD YOURS TO GIVE? Point 2. 'As we have already discussed it is ONLY in Guru Nanaks house that you can obtain naam. As we all know it is only with naam that you can gain salvation therefore this should answer your question' Naam can only be recieved in Guru Nanaks house ?? So they put the name inside you in guru nanaks house?! Once again i would disagree, nam and amrit are running inside you all the time, your atma is always doing simran of har, but our paaps are covering this upfor us, for example A stream of purity flows within the Self. One who drinks from it, finds peace. Guru Ram Das. Bhai sahib how can we possibly promote this site? it is fundementality flawed. Just look at the homepage. The picture of the two bibis Then look at the captions. Once again lets be 'sach', is that a truthful representation of a muslim woman and a Sikh woman? 'Harpreet Singh and my other brothers and sisters i urge you all to understand our Guru ' - yes 100% with you. 'As ever all i ask is you do your own research rather than relying upon others and listening to heresay' - slight contradiction since you have urged us to read tranlsations - 'If nothing else i urge you all to read a translation of Asa Di Vaar ' - the translation itself someelses research - you have just told us to not rely on others heresay - then what is reading a translation of Asa Di Var ? Ok - Bhai Sahib - my ankhar is spirialing out of control - so i'll stop there. Apologies to the moderator for the use of 'caps', i need to learn how to control my emotions and ill try my best. Gurfateh

First 'Bhai Sahib' i disagree with your mentality towards 'giving your head' When 'you' give 'your' head do 'you' make the active choice. Well, it is in this writers contention that the answer is a blunt....no. Y? Because if 'you' exist and 'you' make the choices, what have 'you' given ? Your version of giving your head is based on 'choice' - which is dillusional - because ifyou still exist how can he -its underlined by ankhar because 'you still exist'. In my opinion its a game of love, when you are in love with someone - ie your wife when she comes into the room all your attention is on her, your mind is full of her thought - you are 'mindful' of your wife - you do not need to remind yourself of remembering her, y? because you have developed a thirst for her - using this concept - some people are 'mindful' of har- the existance - this is the meaning of true simran - mindfullness. So what does this have to do with Amrit - well in order for you to take TRUE Amrit 'you, i, me, my' must not exist - it clearly does in Bhai Sahibs View. people with this approach towards Guru usually end up saying to mentally to other Singhs - 'ive given my head to sikh, what have you given'. ask yourself truly IS THAT HEAD YOURS TO GIVE? Point 2. 'As we have already discussed it is ONLY in Guru Nanaks house that you can obtain naam. As we all know it is only with naam that you can gain salvation therefore this should answer your question' Naam can only be recieved in Guru Nanaks house ?? So they put