SikhKhoj

I don't think there is doubt about that, there are various Dasam Granth birs from 1720s-1740s. We could get carbon dating done... Is it accurate/precise (I don't mean exact date but can the decade be known?) I heard there is some guy Jeevan Deol who checks and dates manuscripts too.

Padam gives Gur Sobhas date as 1741 while Amardeep says that the western scholars give it 1711.

now the discussion is wheter this book was written in 1701, 1711 or 1741.

ਅਨਖਿੜੇ - unblossomed in your context, 'immature' minds.

Marrying around fire is still there, Amardeep. Matheen, Vivah is more used by Hindi speakers (altough I heard it on Punjabi TV, punjabis hardly use that word). I assume Guru Nanak Sahib started keeping pothi lateron. Guru Ji married between the age of 15 and 18 and had hardly uttered any Bani (Aad Bani, against Janeu etc but not that much). Doesn't make sense of turning around Adi Granth if there were only a handful birs. How did Sangat of places other than Amritsar marry? Yes much Hindu influence to Hindu Sikh intermarriages and many Hindu families raising first born as a Sikh (nowadays I see some mona Sikh couples keeping same trend - which is not bad) Anand Sahib is for Anand, but it doesn't change the fact that its recited on every happy occasion in ones life. Actually I was thinking and Guru Angad Sahib and Guru Amar Das married according to Hindu rites. Guru Angad married at age 16 and Guru Amar Das met Guru Nanak when he was more than 60. Guru Nanak Sahib weren't Hindu any time in their life so I guess they did pherey around mool mantar or so. And from fourth Guru onward, laavans existed. In between I think there was no real ceremony, just going to Dharamsala and doing ardaas? We need to research more on early history (between Guru Nanak Sahib and Guru Arjan Sahib). Has anyone read the pothi written by Guru Har Rais (adopted?) daugter (Rup Kaur?)

I don't know if thats true though, because I saw rehatnamas saying Viah too. Prem Sumarg seems to be an early manuscript but there are some Brahmanic influences, right? have you read whole of the prem sumarg?

One shouldn't be proud about anything, except having been blessed enough to been given a beautiful path like Sikhi. You still did not answer, how will you handle identity related mistakes + unkowingly marrying in extended family? Why does Gurbani use family names to identify people if its so bad? You can identify names with castes, but only a few (the famous ones), such as Mann, Dhillon, Sandhu. That is because there are so many Sikhs from the Jatt tribe. I am quite sure you don't know much other family names (except of your own, if you are a non-Jatt). So it is not really an excuse not to use family names. Besides people who are from non Jatt tribes who farm start to get called 'jimmidaar'. Most Jatts are descendants of Rajputs who lost their kingdoms, started farming and came to be known as Jatts. Such as Khosa, which is from khos gea - to lose (kingdom). Your mama isn't called jimmidaar either?

LondonDaJatt brother, do you feel prouder to be a Sikh or a Jatt?

Are you even understanding what I am saying Dal? Cut down on the sukhaa brother haa Besides some of you have to understand that Jatt is not only a caste but also a profession jimmidaar/jatt.

Baniya is not only a caste but also means trader, same was as Jatt also means farmer. Baniya has Aroras and so do Khatris, they somewhat overlap each other. So basically Khatris come from Kshatriyas and are not same. Just like Ahirs come from Yadavas. What if one can identify your 'background', the main thing is not discriminating based on that. Keeping a family name for identification purposes is not anti Gurmat. Gurbani identifies people with that aswell, so I see nothing wrong. "We all know that we're going to discriminate people based upon their family name." - We should only speak for ourselves. In 50 years people will be intermarrying people from same (extended) family which is a shame. It has already happened with people who had stopped using family names. Do you only have problems with family names because they suggest what 'caste' you belong to? Like would you have a problem with a Gora Singh keeping McLeod as family name?

A village mostly has several castes/tribes living in it. Especially the former Muslim villages have a diversity. Anyways, Page 1393, Line 12 ਭਲਉ ਪ੍ਰਸਿਧੁ ਤੇਜੋ ਤਨੌ ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਜੋੜਿ ਕਰ ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਇਅਓ ॥ भलउ प्रसिधु तेजो तनौ कल्य जोड़ि कर ध्याइअओ ॥ Bẖala▫o parsiḏẖ ṯejo ṯanou kal▫y joṛ kar ḏẖeā▫i▫o. The son of Tayj Bhaan of the Bhalla dynasty is noble and famous; with his palms pressed together, KALL meditates on Him. Bard Kal-sahar - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Page 1396, Line 5 ਭਲਉ ਭੂਹਾਲੁ ਤੇਜੋ ਤਨਾ ਨ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਨਾਥੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਰਿ ॥ भलउ भूहालु तेजो तना न्रिपति नाथु नानक बरि ॥ Bẖala▫o bẖūhāl ṯejo ṯanā nripṯ nāth Nānak bar. Guru Amar Daas, the son of Tayj Bhaan, of the noble Bhalla dynasty, blessed by Guru Nanak, is the Master of kings. Bard Sala-y - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Page 1401, Line 13 ਅਮਰਦਾਸ ਭਲੇ ਕਉ ਦੀਆ ॥ अमरदास भले कउ दीआ ॥ Amarḏās bẖale ka▫o ḏī▫ā. which He passed on to Guru Amar Daas, of the Bhalla dynasty. Bard Ga-yand - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Gurfateh

Fine post from a hate filled thread in Jattworld. http://www.jattworld.com/portal/modules/newbb_plus/print.php?forum=1&topic_id=5722

DalSingh, Afghan and some Pak Sikhs marry their cousins. So do some Khatri Sikhs in India. There are two explanations for Afghan and Pak Sikhs doing this; most of them are Khatri traders and they are forced to do so too due to the very small community in those countries (unwillingness of Indian parents to marry their children - especially girls - in Pak and Afghan, quite understandable haha) Surya, Khatris are traders while Kshatriyas are warriors. They are not the same but I think I have seen that Guru Sahib used the word Khatri for Kshatriya in their Bani (Sehaskriti Saloks). For all casteists: ਹਮਰੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਪਾਤਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਹਮ ਵੇਚਿਓ ਸਿਰੁ ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ॥ Sadly even 100 years ago some sects refused to give Amrit to lower castes. I have heard that Bhai Randhir Singh took Amrit with either a lower caste or an ex Muslim which caused quite some uproar amongst the "Sikhs". What is wrong in retaining a family name? Gurbani identifies people with so called caste names too, so whats wrong?

LoL Khatris usually are firmer in their beliefs in Sikhi than Jatts. Jatts dominate pinds where 80% Sikhs are monas, yet you will see all Khatris in cities with Sikhi saroop. But indeed, JattWorld would be a good place for you.

Yes londonjatt, most Afghani Sikhs are Khatris, who do intermarry, but that is not right biologically.

Using a family name is not wrong, nor is saying that I come from a Jatt background. The problem is when you start saying I am a Jatt, you are Chamar, so I am better than you; you don't have same rights as me. See all the problems caused by letting family name fall away, you will get thousands of Gurpreet Singhs. This has been a problem in Canada, where if I'm not mistaken, they have banned the use of Singh or Kaur only as surname. It will be difficult to ascertaint wheter you are marrying someone from your own 'blood' or not if nobody uses family names. Pind names can be used but it is not an indicator for blood relations though. Baaki soch apo apni.

Why can't you be a Sikh Jatt? Being proud on caste and discriminating on caste is prohibited in Sikhi not saying I am a Sikh belonging to Jatt tribe? Shall we change Gurbani because it calls Guru Amar Dass a 'Bhalla' and Bhagat Ravidas a 'Chamar'?

ASD, some women in Punjab can be worse and just marry you to come here. But try to find a good family, via yours maybe? I agree with all those idiotic Punjabis trying to act all western with spiky hair (boys) and wearing jeans (girls). Our Punjab has been ruined, boys on drugs, girls have become shameless, multiple relationships, rising aids, etc. btw, Chatanga, Maharaja Ranjit Sion da record tor de, he had 18 haha

Tell us your opinion when you're finished reading Dal.

Sanjog is a nice word, but there is nothing wrong in calling the actual ceremony 'viah'/marriage. The quote I posted might be bit different, I just posted from my memory, but it is along those lines. I agree that it could be more metaphorical. But since Anand Sahib was and is recited on each occassion of 'happiness' such as birth, why not marriage too? Just wondering.

Yes Raag Suhi M4 is read, no Bani named Lavaan exists. But I think Anand Sahib was read too, hence Anand Viah but thats just my opinion. If I am not mistaken I once read in a Puratan work 'anand bina viah nahi karauna' so that made me think if it was referring to the Bani or not.

Good to know. Awaiting the table of contents.

Ohi main kehnda, people from same 'caste'. Yes, chamaarli is usually seperate from other castes. Just sad, seperate gurdwaras and shamshaans too.

Not only that, all surrounding villages are door rishtedaars too haha

Valid points KDSingh. Especially about Singhs and their guerilla warfare. Amardeep, shouldn't we strive to maintain proper Gur Maryada? I think Anand Sahib was read, hence 'Anand Viah' or 'Anand Karaj'. First marriage recorded in modern times using Guru Granth Sahib was done without the pherey. Only after that did they introduce the pherey, maybe to gain more acceptance from people as they were usually against it. (adding pherey made the ceremony more similar to fire one and made it easier to accept it?)