SikhKhoj

Gyani Gyan Singh, Sri Guru Panth Parkash, 1880, Lahore. (One of first books saying Mian Mir laid the stone - first one was Buthay Shah book)

In my opinion he didn't lay the foundation of Harmandar Sahib. The first book stating so was not written until 1800 something.

It means top / best / highest. Literally it means 'high peak'. We often say ਉਚ ਕੋਟੀ ਦਾ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ as in a very learned, proficient scientist.

Its not Bhai Gurdas II. Someone wrote it much later and put it into the vaars of Bhai Gurdas. Then without thinking we assumed that it is by Gurdas the second, without any proof. This was probably written post 1740. Some historians say the author is Kuer Singh, which might be possible, but I have not seen any proof proving it so far. Internal proof: ਯਹ ਬਾਰਹ ਸਦੀ ਨਿਬੇੜ ਕਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਫੜੇ ਬੁਲਾਏ ਬਾਰਹ ਸਦੀ ਨਿਬੇੜ - 12th century Hijri had passed. Quick look at wikipedia shows that 1194 Hijri corresponds to 1780 AD (meaning that the creation of this vaar is even later). If we believe this internal evidence, then we can not believe that the author was Kuer Singh since he died in 1765 AD.

Will try to Dal. Amardeep, is that link the whole Vaisakhi prasang in Gur Sobha (i.e. 'Bachan Pragas')? I don't think it is.

Which one you doing before this? (the one by Prof. Sahib Singh?) I shall try to start soon. Yes, three worlds = universe. Is there any account on the net that is already tanslated? (except the quite dodgy account by 'Mughal spy' 'Abdul Turrani')?

Translation of the available section. [Khalsa Di Saajna] With endeavour of (starting) a Panth, (the Guru) called five Sikhs. The Guru gave them Pahul, made them keep hair on their heads. 213. The Guru said: ‘Do not meet five kinds of people’. Stop doing bad actions, do good ones. 214. Who are these five kinds? Minas (descendants of Prithi Chand) and... Also translate the previous one (Panth Rachan Layi Praan)?

Another word used for three worlds in Gurbani is ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣਿ - Traibhavan. Three worlds is probably a metaphor for the whole universe, everything in this universe.

Will try Dal. Inform me when you got the copy. Amardeep, you are right. I also found that strange when translating. But Kankan probably meant all other Gurus as in teachers, not Sikh Gurus. Its not three people but three worlds, a phrase which is often used in Puratan literature. It is even found in Guru Granth Sahib: ਗੁਰੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਹਿਵੈ ਘਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਦੀਪਕੁ ਤਿਹ ਲੋਇ ॥ The Guru is the Giver; the Guru is the House of ice. The Guru is the Light of the three worlds.

Yes important for merging 4 Varnas, but there are so many rehats out there saying this. Mukatnama says 'charo varan mile gur bhai'. So, I prefer discussing material directly related to the 1699 event. Kankan is 'said to be'. Possible. I saw the Granth a while ago and the last pages are missing (just where the Amrit Sanchaar section starts). If anybody could lay his hands on it, would be nice. Besides we are not out to translate whole Granths, just the sections we need.

But I don't know if this text has something to do with 1699 at all? Yes there is the 4 Varans mention, but no Amrit nothing. Or is this off-topic?

Yes thats right, we are the only community that can NEVER stick togheter. I tried Dal, ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਸੁਤ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਸਭ ਗੁਰੂਅਨ ਸਿਰਮੌਰ। Their son, Gobind Singh, was the supreme of all Gurus, ਜੈਸੇ ਅਵਿਤਾਰਨ ਬਿਖੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਸਮਾਨ ਨ ਔਰ।। Like Krishna from the incarnations, he was unmatchable. ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ - ਪੀਰਨ ਤੇ ਜਿਨ ਪੀਰੀ ਹਰੀ ਲੀਨੀ ਗੁਰਾਈ। ਸ਼ਾਹਨਿ ਸੋਂ ਪਤਿਸਾਹੀ ਹਰੀ ਅਰੁ ਮੀਰਨ ਕੀ ਜਿਨ ਮੀਰੀ ਗਵਾਈ। Swaiyya – Like Piri is taken from Pirs, (he took) Guruship from the Lord. The same Lord who made Kings lose Kingdoms and chieftainship of chiefs I made many mistakes for sure, so feel free to correct them. Then I am kind off struck, 'all four varans were merged togheter' but don't see the ਬਿਸਨਾਈ in the context. Could you try translating that?

SikhSangat is a site for beginners (and moorakhs). They got some strange rules. They go like we support Dasam Granth because Akal Takth says so but then they are anti-meat, while Akal Takht Rehat allows us to consume Jhatka. I have read that post you mention. Was quite sick to write something like that. I don't like this gender equality getting into everything. I agree but I feel that AKJ/Taksal stance is taking over Sikhi overall in west. And when they don't agree with others they threaten them.

That is interesting to know. However dastar for women in no way is bad, but I am not sure it being a religious compulsion for women.

I see. You may be right actually. But what makes you say that?

Yes thats true. I want that accounts about Amrit Sanchaar, Kurehits and any information regarding to Kakkaars from these books be posted in this thread (if they contain). Feel free to add names of books (between 1699 and 1900) to the list or add the content under the title. If the book doesn't have ANY information regarding the above then just write 'No information'. Please note that you have to add the exact text from the book. I surely doubt some of the below books having any mention about the things we are going to research, but I tried adding all books post 1699 on Sikhi. Thanks. * Amarnama (Dhadi Nathmal, 1708) * Parchian Seva Das (Seva Das, 1708) * Gurbilas Patshahi 6 (1718) * Sau Sakhi (Sahib Singh, 1734) * Sikhan Di Bhagat Mala (1740s) * Gyan Ratnavli (1740s) * Sri Gur Sobha (Kavi Sainapat, 1741) * Gurbilas Patshahi 10 (Kuer Singh, 1751) * Bansawlinama Dasan Patshahia Ka (Kesar Singh Chibber, 1769) * Mehima Parkash Vaartak (Bawa Sumer Singh, 1776) * Mehima Parkash Kavita (Sarup Das Bhalla, 1776) * Gurbilas Patshahi 10 (Sukha Singh, 1797) * Prem Sumarag Granth (1800) * Prachin Panth Parkash (Rattan Singh Bhangu, 1841) * Sri Gurpartap Suraj Granth (Kavi Santokh Singh, 1843) * Naveen Panth Parkash (Gyani Gian Singh, 1880) * Pothi Gurbilas Ki (Bawa Sumer Singh, 1882)

I will request that members from now on post Amrit ceremony quotations from any puratan Granth/Rehat they possess.

I am not pro Keski for women nor anti (as of yet), but the paintings you showed were only of Nihangs Singhnia. And we do not argue that Nihangs Singhnia didn't wear dumallaey or keskian. The thing is that there is no proof whatsoever of 'normal' Bibian wearing Keskis or even the long cholay for that matter. I think Mata Sundris Lenghay are still preserved. I also don't like how some people have started saying that Guru Arjan Dev tied a keski on Mata Ganga's head after reciting Bawan Akhri and provide no proof. My great-grandmother was Amritdhari and didn't wear a Keski, nor did the other Bibian. I feel that Western Sikh youth who got into Sikhi, mostly got into it due to Khalistan issue (I myself did too, so no harm in that), but because of this feel more affinity to the Akhand Kirtani and Taksal Rehat, the former being avid Keski (for bibian) promoters. Dhanvaad jio, very interesting articles. Exactly, my great grandmother was born in 1902-1905 and women in her times didn't wear Keskis either. Besides Nihangnis who fought in the battlefield also wore the same uniform as the Nihangs. Hence the Singhnis description in Naveen Panth Parkash: What about the word ''Bana'' though? I feel that we are wrongly referring to the chola as bana while most Nihang Singhs did not wear it during the older days. One Taksali Kathavachak told me that only the Kakkaars are bana. What are your opinions? Did Guru Sahib order to wear us a chola? (I don't think so).

Also answer the others questions so that we can start discussing. DalSingh, no replies?

Agreed. That is why I said 'some'. Not all Nihangs say it, but most of the people who believe in the Trai Mudra are Nihangs (I could be wrong, but that is the impression I have been getting).

I request anyone replying to this thread to reply to the following questions, citing proofs if necessary. 1. Was the Khande Di Pahul ceremony held on Vaisakh 1699 (30th of March 1699) or an earlier date? Pyara Singh Padam says that Puratan granths give several dates, some even giving 1695 as a possible date. 2. Was there any tent where the Guru bhought the Panj Pyare too? 3. The 5 persons who took Amrit after the 5 Pyare are really the 5 Mukteh or is this just made up? 4. How many people were given Pahul? (sources estimate from 20,000 to 80,000) 5. Were the Kakkaars given as we know them today? Or Trai Mudra as some Nihangs say (Kes Kach Kirpan). Or were Sikhs just ordered not to remove hair and keep weapons to defend the poor? 6. Did women get pahul? If so, were they ordered to keep the name Kaur? Did they wear Keskis / Dumalleh? 7. Did all Sikhs take pahul? I will add more questions lateron. I asked these questions so that we can have a more accurate views with some discussion with historical sources as base. DalSingh, I was talking about this kind of 'research'.

Amardeep send it on SikhKhoj@hotmail.com A Gora said this in 1783: Do you think the word 'military' meant to imply something?

Haha, jokes aside we should try that out. As in we take a few topics and research them with the use of Puratan Granths/accounts etc.

makes complete sense Is that article by Pashaura Singh on the net?