SikhKhoj

Paapi, I hope the astrologer says you're in sadesati and theres no way around it. Dafa ho.

This is my last post on this thread. First line says "ਸਾਹਾ ਗਣਹਿ ਨ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥". Guru Nanak starts of by saying: O Pandit, you make calculations (ਗਣਹਿ) to obtain an auspicious date for the wedding (ਸਾਹਾ), but you do not contemplate. Contemplate what? The answer is: ਸਾਹੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ - that God is above these auspicious days.The one who meets the Guru - ਜਿਸੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ, realizes the (real) way (to ascertain auspicious days) - ਸੋਈ ਬਿਧਿ ਜਾਣੈ. How? By following Gurmat, one realizes Gods Will. ਝੂਠੁ ਨ ਬੋਲਿ ਪਾਡੇ ਸਚੁ ਕਹੀਐ ॥ - Pandit do not lie, speak the truth. Now it is clear from the context that the lie is about the calculations and auspicious dates. When egotism is removed with Shabd, then one finds his Home. (ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਇ ਸਬਦਿ ਘਰੁ ਲਹੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥) Calculating and counting, the astrologer draws the horoscope. (ਗਣਿ ਗਣਿ ਜੋਤਕੁ ਕਾਂਡੀ ਕੀਨੀ ॥) He studies it and announces it, but he does not understand reality. ( ਪੜੈ ਸੁਣਾਵੈ ਤਤੁ ਨ ਚੀਨੀ ॥ ) The Word of the Guru's Shabad is above all. Do not speak of anything else (i.e. astrology); it is all just ashes. (ਸਭਸੈ ਊਪਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਹੋਰ ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਉ ਨ ਸਗਲੀ ਛਾਰੁ ॥੨॥) And so on, till we arrive at the tuk I quoted: ਗਣਤ ਗਣੀਐ ਸਹਸਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਜੀਐ ॥ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਵੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਥੀਐ Astrological calculations about one's future create suspense or sorrow in one's heart; But by seeking the Guru's refuge, one always remains in peace and comfort. It is crystal clear from the opening line that the Guru addresses a Pandit regarding the calculations he makes to draw a birth chart to eventually fix an auspicious date for the marriage. Guru Sahib tells him that he does not realize that Parmatma is above these; as all days are created by God. The Guru encourages to speak about nothing else than GurShabad (in this context the Guru is referring to the kundlis). And the Guru continues till he says that instead of creating suspense or sorrow in your heart by supposed revelations of your future; instead embrace the Guru and remain in peace and comfort (by living in his Will and accepting Hukam).

Because Paapiman and Bhagat seem to be in denial here is the whole shabad: ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਸਾਹਾ ਗਣਹਿ ਨ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਸਾਹੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ ਜਿਸੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੋਈ ਬਿਧਿ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥੧॥ ਝੂਠੁ ਨ ਬੋਲਿ ਪਾਡੇ ਸਚੁ ਕਹੀਐ ॥ ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਇ ਸਬਦਿ ਘਰੁ ਲਹੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਗਣਿ ਗਣਿ ਜੋਤਕੁ ਕਾਂਡੀ ਕੀਨੀ ॥ ਪੜੈ ਸੁਣਾਵੈ ਤਤੁ ਨ ਚੀਨੀ ॥ ਸਭਸੈ ਊਪਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਹੋਰ ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਉ ਨ ਸਗਲੀ ਛਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ ਨਾਵਹਿ ਧੋਵਹਿ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਸੈਲਾ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਤੇ ਮੈਲੋ ਮੈਲਾ ॥ ਗਰਬੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਾਰਥਿ ॥ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥਿ ॥੩॥ ਵਾਚੈ ਵਾਦੁ ਨ ਬੇਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ ॥ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੈ ਕਿਉ ਪਿਤਰਾ ਤਾਰੈ ॥ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਚੀਨੈ ਜਨੁ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਇ ॥੪॥ ਗਣਤ ਗਣੀਐ ਸਹਸਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਜੀਐ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਵੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਥੀਐ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਅਪਰਾਧ ਸਰਣਿ ਹਮ ਆਇਆ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਭੇਟੇ ਪੁਰਬਿ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥੫॥ The so called 'calculations' (gannt) is to make a birth chart, not the normal everyday maths.

BhagatSingh; Go to panna 904 and read the whole Shabad Guru Nanak Maharaj addresses to a Pandit as is evident from ਝੂਠੁ ਨ ਬੋਲਿ ਪਾਡੇ ਸਚੁ ਕਹੀਐ ॥ (panday = pandit). One of the tuks clearly mentions the word "jotak": ਗਣਿ ਗਣਿ ਜੋਤਕੁ ਕਾਂਡੀ ਕੀਨੀ ॥ Therefore it is clear that Guru Nanak is talking about the futility of drawing birth charts and calculating auspicious days. I would just request you to next time read a whole Shabad before creating an issue, thanks.

Try to grasp the message instead of being an admin cut, BhagatSingh.

Guru Nanak Patshah says in Bani: ਗਣਤ ਗਣੀਐ ਸਹਸਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਜੀਐ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਵੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਥੀਐ Astrological calculations about one's future create suspense or sorrow in one's heart; But by seeking the Guru's refuge, one always remains in peace and comfort.

BTW Singh123..., over the years I have found enough evidence in Guru Nanaks Bani for the political teachings, some historical facts about Guru Angad out of which mal akharas is an important one. Guru Arjan has lots of miri aspects too, only stuck on Guru Amar Das and Guru Ram Das.

Why no missionaries? ^ ;)

Yes, saw that but; A manuscript without background information is not that suitable for research, especially for beginners like us. If a Path had been created we could look in a particular direction and then it is easier to form opinions.

I am more interested in the 40 Vaars to be honest.

Singh123..., care to reply on the Mal Akhara thread? You might have some info because we share the same views regarding the earlier Gurus also having socio-political teachings.

I often quote from the Vaaran myself, but talking about the manuscripts is no paap. I am researching. You will not see a single distasteful post from me against the Dasam Granth, I try to remain objective in my study and keep the past baggage, assumptions, blind faith aside.

Yes.

And to bring another perspective: years back, while reading Gurdas Dian Vaaran I came across the reference to Nitnem during Guru Nanaks time. He referred to Japuji as 'Jaap', I didn't think much of it back then but perhaps we need another perspective for Jap Jaap too. Think about it: sodru AwrqI gwvIAY AMimRq vyly jwpu aucwrw] Sodar and Arati were sung and in the ambrosial hours Japu was recited.

A topic that is not often brought up but is still an interesting one; how many manuscripts of the Vaaran are available? When was it first published and on what manuscript is it available? Are there variations? I am talking only about the 40 Vaars and not the late 18th century '41st vaar' (which is not by Bhai Gurdas II by the way) which was appended later on to the text by fools. Years ago I read a discussion on the authenticity of the Vaaran in a book but I don't remember any details.

Since amardeepu likes such news, I have a collection on my USB: Over 200 Dalits Convert to Sikhism in MP NDTV correspondent reported last May from Guna, Madhya Pradesh In Madhya Pradesh’s Guna and Vidishia district more than two hundred Dalits have converted to Sikhism in order to free themselves of discrimination by the upper castes - a tradition that has been prevalent for years. Though this has not yet led to a change of mindset, more Dalits look all set to convert to Sikhism. 80 year old Dangal Rai is now Dangal Singh. All his life, he says, he has suffered discrimination from upper castes Hindus and has now decided to convert to Sikhism. We were not allowed to enter the temples and were shunned by everybody, said Dangal Singh. The village of Deomari is VIP constituency in every sense of the word. It is part of Jyotiraditya Scindia’s parliamentary constituency and also part of the Raghogarh assembly constituency represented by Chief minister Digvijay Singh. But here, too, Dalits have been traditionally discriminated against and four families in this alone have converted to Sikhism. Many of the villagers say their first introduction to the religion came when migrant labour from the village went to Punjab.Conversions have since been reported from 11 villages in Guna district and four villages in Vidisha district. In January 2002 alone 42 people converted. In March at least 200 people converted, said Giani Bhajan Singh, Guru Singh Sabha, Guna. (MP) Dalits here are still learning to tie the turban and the basics of their new religion but the outward changes have yet to bring a change of the mindset through which others see them. Even today, after conversions, we still have problems. We are still shunned and humiliated. said Nishan Singh. Pracharaks have yet to instil the heroic spirit of Sikhism. [Courtesy Sarbhpreet Singh] The Dalit tag still sticks despite converting to Sikhism By Imran Khan, Patna, June 9 : It is a centuries-old ignominy they wanted to escape by converting to Sikhism in Punjab and found new respect there. But back home in Bihar, the tag of Dalit refused to leave them. Many Dalit labourers who migrated to Punjab for work years ago and converted toduring their stay there are upset that they are still being categorised as Scheduled Caste in government records after they returned to their native villages in Bihar. Sanjay Singh, who converted to Sikhism during his years-long stay in Punjab and sports a colourful turban and a long beard, says local and district administration officials in Bihar are not ready to accept him as a Sikh. Guru the founder of Sikhism, preached against discrimination and prejudices on the basis of caste, class and status. Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/25333-dalit-tag-still-sticks-despite-converting.html "The government officials are still treating us as Rishideo of the Musahar caste (the poorest Dalit community known as rat eaters), not as Sikhs, despite our efforts to convince them," Singh told IANS, adding that he was yet to be termed a Sikh in the government records despite repeated requests. Singh said that about two decades ago his close relative Naren Rishideo left for Punjab to earn a livelihood and converted to the Sikh religion, becoming Naren Singh. His example was followed by most of those of his caste men working there. "We tasted dignity, respect and equality after we converted. Before that, we were treated as low caste, sometimes even inferior to animals, by the upper caste and backward caste people in the village," Sanjay Singh said. He said most of the women members of their families have now started using the Kaur surname. Rup Singh and Manish Singh, who also converted to Sikhism, are no longer keen to be known as Rishideos and want that they should be treated as Sikhs in government records. "We changed our religion to get rid of the stigma of untouchablity and to live a life with pride. We were happy to return to our village. Local people, barring a few, accepted us as Sikh, but in the government records and caste certificates we have the same old Dalit tag," Rup Singh told IANS. Soon after they returned to their village Halhalia in Araria district, nearly 400 km from Patna, they were shocked to learn that despite the change of religion they would have to fight another battle to upgrade their social status in official records. "All the Dalits who converted to the Sikh religion are still Dalits in the caste certificate and we are being denied the status of the Sikhs," Rup Singh said. Manish Singh, another convert, says that they are no longer Dalits after embracing the Sikh religion and they should instead be treated as minorities as Sikhs are a minority community in the country. A large number of migrant labourers from Bihar who converted to Sikhism in Punjab and stayed back there hardly face any identity problem, but the converts who returned to their native villages in Bihar are facing a different discrimination, Manish Singh said. Araria district magistrate Anjani Kumar Verma, when asked about the problem, told IANS over telephone that he was not aware of the matter. "So far no such complaint has come to my notice. If there is anything like it, the district administration will do justice with them," Verma said. Over 200 Dalit villagers of half a dozen villages including Kamta Balia, Gurumuhi, and Parmanpur under the Khwaspur panchayat (village council) have already converted to Sikhism. They have set up a gurdwara with support of the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC), while some Sikhs from New Delhi are helping them to maintain it. Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25333 --- IANS A VILLAGE OF AMRITDHARIS (this time Punjab) PANTHIC.ORG | Published on December 12, 2007 Amritdhari Residents of the Chabrewal Village Rupnagar, Nurpur Bedi (KP) - Recently, a local Punjabi newspaper published an inspiring article about a particular Punjab village in the foothills of the Shivaliks that has rapidly accepting the Sikhi way of live, en masse - a trend that is opposite of what is happening in rest of Punjab. Perhaps this unique village can inspire others accross Punjab to return to their Sikhi roots. Village Chabrewal is a small village in Nurper Bedi situated in the hills of Shivalik. Because of its small size, this village goes unnoticed by the rest of the world and it enjoys a simple lifestyle--remaining aloof from worldly facilities and luxuries. During one time, this village, which is mostly populated with the people of the Gujjar clan, was known for its people’s smoking and drinking habits--but now, it has been completely transformed by conversions of people who have chosen to adopt the Sikh faith. Amritdhari men and women can be spotted easily upon entering the village. The population of this village remains scarce, at about 250, but Mela Ram has now become Mela Singh, Jog Raj has now become Jog Raj Singh and Dolat Ram has now become Dolat Singh. At least one member of every family has taken up the Sikh way of life by adopting the path shown by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. According to Jog Raj Singh, the Chief of this Village, Sikh influence was brought here by a person named Mela Ram. Mela Ram, Son of Babu Ram, was the first person to be baptized into the Khalsa Panth. Afterwards, he inspired many others as well. Not only have the ordinary villagers taken up the Sikh way of life, many of the village’s amritdharis are eminent public figures. Prof. Jaswinder Singh who teaches religious studies at the Kalgidhar Kanea School Kahnpur Khuhi said that Baba Dalip Singh Samirowal and Baba Gurcharan Singh, who performed seva of a historical shrine relating to the life of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, played a big role in nurturing Sikhi in this village. In addition, Sikh Missionary College (Anandpur Sahib), Baba Channan Singh Suara and Principal Prem Singh Heerpur have continued to hold Gurmat related classes for the people which have helped many people. Jaswinder Singh said that 1999 was a crucial year for the village as during this year, a large number of people became attached to bani and bana. This area of the Shivalik Hills has been blessed with ‘charan-choh’ (presence and touch of the Holy Lotus feet) of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. At Gurdwara Kataar Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh Ji blessed the father of Baba Sangat Singh Ji with a kataar. Seva of this Gurdwara Sahib was organized by Baba Labh Singh Ji who handed the control of this shrine to the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee. Sikh Sangat visits this historical shrine in big numbers during the annual nangar kirtan and on special monthly programs. (Original story appeared in the Punjabi version of Ajit) RECENT NEWS of Madhya Pradesh:

Old news, there are loads of converts in Madhya Pradesh and Bihar, UP. To the extent that BJP once demanded a ban on dalits converting to other religions citing conversion to Sikhi. Same thing happened in Pakistan where Hindu fundamentalist have created a divide between Sikhs and Hindus because of the latter embracing Sikhi en masse (by taking amrit, not sehajdhari form anymore)

Gurdas is source is good

^^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_thinking

Ofcourse these words are mentioned in Gurbani. But how do we link those pronunciations to the 'symbol' ੴ ? Only if ਓ is even o(a)nkar to begin with ;) Just joking. No comment on that though

Any additional information or Sakhis on the Mal Akharas - wrestling arenas - built by Guru Angad Dev Ji? Were they maintained by the subsequent Gurus? What do our historical sources tell about them?

Don't read it. But I 'liked' the fact that he questioned the terminology, what are our earliest sources saying ik oankar? Some early teekas? The author famously supports consuming halal meat!

Ok found it. Its in: Sources for the Study of Guru Gobind Singh's Life and Times by Mann Sadly he covers it very briefly and fails to elaborate on the "5th Patshahs small army" claim with any historical sources (others than the Dabistan which I did not find anywhere on pg 68 of Sikh history from Persian Sources nor the whole Dabistan). I've found a book that makes a similar claim but again provides no historical references (Ranghretia da Ithaas by Niranjan Arfi)

Actually re-reading the article it posts some interesting excerpts about ik oankar from different historians and scholars, both recent and somewhat puratan. Only the conclusion of referring to ੴ as 'ik oh beant' is not convincing at all. http://www.iuscanada.com/journal/articles/omkar.pdf

How do we know ੴ is actually ik oankar? Read an absurd article by some professor where he discusses ੴ and says it is not ik oankar but something else. It is available on IUS Canada.