SikhKhoj

Dally, even though you are pro DG, answer my one question:
Do you honestly believe that there is historical evidence between 1700-1800 to show Guru Ji wrote Charitars or used Shyam as pen name (and Shyam was not a court poet)? Internal evidence says Kab Shyam is the author, so it is important to know who that is. Anyone can easily claim 'oh thats a pen name of Guru Ji' without giving any references
What will happen if I can show more than one source that says Shyam was a court poet? These adamant pro DGs will still not budge one bit because they don't want to question themselves ever.

Thanks for confirming DG as Guru Krit is just a theory. I thought it was unquestionable for you Dasam Granthis but its just a theory.

The link contains almost all stanzas of the sakhi and it includes the portions I am talking about, so there is no doubt about the source. If he wants the source then answer my questions, as simple as that. Or go buy the book.
The link already mentions court poets wrote Charitars. So no question arises on my source.

I will post it, if you answer the following questions:
1) Do you have any source from the 1700 - 1800 period that says Guru Gobind Singh wrote Charitropakhyan or Chaubis Avtar? I am not talking about Vidya Sagar, this that Granth. I want the specific names Charitars or Avtars or Bachitar Natak.

2) Do you have any historical proof that Shyam was Guru's pen name and not a court poet?

http://punjabipedia.org/topic.aspx?txt=ਬਵੰਜਾ/ਬਾਵਨ ਕਵੀ
All references you need are there. Stanza 6 mentions poet names and stanza 8 says they wrote Charitropakhyan.

Thanks brother.

Admin cut. So many books say 'Patshahi 10' you believe in all of them?
Stop posting in this topic, you're not even trying to prove the historicity because you know you can't. Amardeep atleast tries to discuss from a historical perspective even though he is still held back by preconceived notions.

Court poets did it according to Mehma Parkash (1776). Internal proof regarding Kab Shyam is also very solid because Kab Shyam was a court poet according to Mehma Parkash as well. I got one more proof regarding Kab Shyam being a court poet and not a pen name but I'll wait for all you Dasam Granthis to post some sources.

Neo, I am seeing that you're changing your liberal colors once we start talking about Dasam Granth?
The topic title says HISTORICAL perspective. Why are you guys running left right? The topic is about the Charitars and other material being written by court poets or the Guru, not whether the Guru made it compulsory in Nitnem or whatever.

Stick to the topic, this rule also applies to you admin.

I humbly ask every single Dasam Granthi on this forum to provide proof for:
1) Guru Gobind Singh writing Charitropakhyan. Preferably from 1700-1800.
2) Guru Gobind Singh using Shyam as a pen name.
Neo, Dally, Amardeepu, Singh123, Chatangeh, etc
 
Chatanga, you got the Guru Prem Pad Parkash right? I will be using it for one of my next posts with some evidence so better keep it at hand if you got it.

Look you need to change this attitude where you first ask for proof, then for scans, then for a translation. Whats next? Asking to send you the book by post or what?
I gave book name, author and page number, I even typed out the Sakhi heading for you, what else do you need?

I have just started? I am not done yet brother. And even in the extreme case that I had only 1 perspective, you don't even have one puratan proof that Guru Gobind Singh wrote Charitars himself?

So you admit Guru Gobind Singh did not write Charitars but court poets did?

I have never voiced my concerns about Dasam Granth in regards to its 'obscene language' or Charitropakhyans 'dirty stories' or whatever. I am not a feminist either. I am just saying that Charitropakhyan is not Guru Krit, nor are the Chaubis Avtar etc from a historical perspective.

Khushwaqt Rai estimated that there were about 2 lakh Khalsa Sikhs in the early 19th century. But I do not think it included the Sahajdharis?
    

Singh1234..., what is the identity of the King in Charitars 21-23? Is it Guru Gobind Singh as claimed by Padam and the likes or not?

Thanks for confirming DG as Guru Krit is just a theory. I thought it was unquestionable for you Dasam Granthis but its just a theory.

Sikhkhoj, you're weird mate.
You got a REALLY strange way of debating. 
The way you make points and then start 'hiding' your apparent sources makes you look like you are either talking shite or are weird. 
If you don't want to share sources for discussion, fine; but I'm telling you independently and without animosity - it makes you look weird as hell. 
A suggestion: if you don't want to share a particular source - don't bang on about points derived from it. 

Request to cyber sangat - Let's keep this topic too, primarily based on historical sources. 
Sikhkhoj - If you want, you can add the term "historical" to the topic title.
Thanks
Bhul chuk maaf

Request to cyber sangat - Let's keep this topic, primarily based on historical sources.
Thanks
Bhul chuk maaf

Neo, I am seeing that you're changing your liberal colors once we start talking about Dasam Granth?
The topic title says HISTORICAL perspective. Why are you guys running left right? The topic is about the Charitars and other material being written by court poets or the Guru, not whether the Guru made it compulsory in Nitnem or whatever.

Stick to the topic, this rule also applies to you admin.

It seems incredible to me SikhKhoj Paji that these people keep a straight face claiming to be Sikhs whilst asserting that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj was the King of Anandpur mentioned in those charitars 21,22 and 23. I would like to see even a single person on this site defend Padam's point but I am pretty confident nobody will have the himmat to denigrate Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj openly. 

I am beginning my rebuttal to the Charitropakhyan being authored by Guru Gobind Singh from a historical perspective. Anyone with historical proofs (1695-1825 AD) saying (1) Guru Gobind Singh wrote Charitropakhyan (2) used the pen names Kab Shyam and Kab Raam is invited to the topic.

Now that everyone is talking about Charitars can you guys give your opinions about Charitars 21, 22 and 23. Pyara Padam says its about Guru Gobind Singh (the King) while others disagree. Pro Dasam Granthis are so divided on basic issues. Is the King in the tale Guru Gobind Singh or not? Give proofs.

People who believe in Dasam Granth invent all kind of fairy tales to justify Dasam Granth;
1) Oh but this Granth is for the Khalsa while GGS is for humanity
If DG is intended for the Khalsa, why doesn't it mention the word Khalsa even once?
2) Oh the internal evidence says someone called Shyam wrote a huge part... That means Guru Ji used that as pen name
If that is true then why do historical sources say that Shyam was a court poet and not a pen name?
3) Charitars were written to control Kaam
So Sikhs fell prey to kaam from 1469 to 1696? GGS was not enough to give them guidance?