HSD1

But what if they see this coming and decide to back off and just cut us off and see how long they can live without us? Okay, we'll be good for food, but what do we do about airspace and who gets Kashmir and all the other things? To be honest getting Punjab free is just half the battle. What happens after is just as important. What kind of political parties would there be to vote for or would it be the same old same old? What role would religion play, seeing what a mess most of our institutions and general population are in? What would our relationship with the outside world be? Half of the stuff we want to do in Khalistan could be done right now in Punjab, it's just that Sikhs in the diaspora arent keen on changing the status quo and the police/politicians there are too comfortable creaming off a living from those below them. Add to that how most East Punjabis are so desperate to do better for themselves or even survive in some cases that they will do anything to get ahead. Giving thousands of pounds to visa agencies to end up as a builder/prostitute in the West or paying dodgy talent agents to create music albums that no one will buy shows a people not really with it. If they had their own country, they would leave it the next day. Who could blame them? We in the West say a lot, but when it comes down to it it is just triumphalism of those who got here and look down on those still there.

Welcome, it's always great to see people ask questions and want to know more. As well as meditation, there are many English translations of SGGS ji available on the internet that would be useful to read at your own pace and help you build faith. What else is it about the SIkh way of life that interests you and that you wish to incorporate into your life?

So where do we go from here? I guess someone's going to have to contact them and see what's going on. Do you think it's worth contacting UK Sikh bodies as they werent mentioned in the article? A lot of people dont know about this. That article is from 3 years ago, it seems not a lot has been done for restoration. I hope the PGPC arent just after tourist cash.

Oh really, I thought the PGPC were still in charge? So why cant it be reformed if it did so well back then? They could organise this and channel funds, ask for specific help and bring people in from other parts of Pakistan. The old members cant all have died off. Is really just about lack of funds?

I wont take anything personally but I want you to think about what I say. There is no malice, I am trying to cover all the corners here. You mention Gen. Zia but bare in mind he only moved Sikhs to Punjab as he needed Sikhs to control Gurdwaras and take them off SGPC hands. It was all political and with the blessing of the Pak govt. So how are you planning on getting the Pak govt on side? They may want to move but can they really just upsticks and move? How does this work in Pakistan? Will they have to reregister in Punjab? Will they be willing to live in Gurdwaras till accomodation can be found locally? If you know a lot about Pakistan then tell us more. If there is enough public feeling about restoring these places, the Badals and SGPC will come round. PSGPC are as much pets of the Pak govt as the SGPC are of the Badals. That's why they hate them, they feel they were screwed over. Ultimately neither are doing Sikhi or Sikhs any favours. I know that most Gurdwaras are lying in ruins, my family came from West Punjab before 1947. I know that rebuilding them properly is going to be no easy task either. Look at the photos above, some are literally ruins. A slapdash job is just going to reflect the bad way we've looked after Gurdwaras in other places. Read my post on the first page to see what I mean about restoration. I dont think it's worth comparing Hindu mobs to mujahideen or other muslims. Completely different. Security has to be taken seriously. We cant just say it'll be alright if we do this. Do you think it's worth writing to the Pak embassy or local MPs to twist the arms of the Pak govt to provide proper security to these places? Otherwise it will be like Afghanistan all over again. Dont forget that NATO will leave in a few months time and fighting will probably spread over to Pakistan.

1. We cant let personal prejudices to come into this. If they dont want to give help, that's their choice but we cant shut them out. 2. But what about people who already live in the area they move to? Too many will cause friction. Paying people just to look after a Gurdwara wont work either in the long term as we pay not always be able to get funds to them. Could they live there sustainably? 3. I hope so. 4. They will probably want to stick together so consultation is needed. Where would they like to go? 5. Again, dont cut them out. If someone could contact some about this and see, at least we could tick it off and move on. 6. They will if the East Punjab/West Punjab government and the Sikh diaspora offer some money towards new facilities elsewhere. 7. Yeah but the Pak police and army had no presence or jurisdiction in those areas. If we dont want the same to happen elsewhere we need local support from authorities. 8. Every incident of the last 70 years says the opposite. I'm not talking about communities but small teams at the smaller Gurdwaras. How many of these Gurdwaras actually still contain SGGS ji? Renovating them would be a start. If you want a list of Gurdwaras ask people on Facebook and Twitter to post their knowledge on one page/group. Ask people to ask their elders to get place names and locations and speak/put up posters in Gurdwaras. Collate the info and put it on a map and database. Asking for photos would be great too. Some of you have ideas and I am glad you guys are coming round to my points. But bare in mind the political climate and what the situation in Pakistan will be like in the short term with the Nato pull out of Afghanistan. We have to go into this with our eyes open.

I'm not saying ignore the religous dimension but be wary of how we project what is going on. If we start talking about converts and the rest of it, they wont help us at all. We need some support from the Pak government and need to take into account the current political climate. We have to show that this is about heritage, something they can understand. If they think it's political or religous dont be surprised if they start getting funny about it. Sikh voters need to get a bit more mature too. Protecting these sites shouldnt be about votes, it should be done because it is the right thing that Punjabis should be doing regardless of what side of the border they are on. To avoid it becoming a political issue it should be made clear that as the Akalis are in power, that's why they are asking. It's even more reason to get non-political organisations like Universities involved.

I doubt the Pak government would want direct Indian control of these places either. The more we make this a religous or political issue, the less likely we are to get the Pak government's help or backing. That's why I asked about Universities or Musuems in East Punjab. If there are departments or individuals who could organise this we could show that it is a heritage issue. If Badal offered concessions for mosques in East Punjab in return for the same across the border, it could be a win-win situation. Badal and the SGPC are going to have their hands full with drug/water/refugee issues in the next few years anyway. They should be intelligent to know we dont want their micromanaging. Give us support to get it done. Screw the Indian govt, the Akalis are a SIkh party and they should be fighting our corner. Their allies should support them too. In reality I know the Indians would love nothing more than for SIkh heritage in West Punjab to disappear down a dark hole, but we can still twist their arms.

We have to remember that not many people know the history of West Punjab or are too bothered by it. Sikhs who are ancestrally from there are scattered all over India and the West. They have plenty on their plate as it is. Creating more awareness is one thing but the East Punjab Government and the institutions there really have to step up their game. We havent even talked about other sites of historical importance or places from the 18th century. Maharajah Nau Nihal's palace is now a run down girl's school. Some of the above photos are from Sindh. It is a good idea for them to look after Gurdwaras in their state. The question is whether they live near them or whether they can move near them. If we are trying to twist the arm of the Pakistani goverment to let us in and renovate these places it will be even harder to get permission and assistance if we start to run around and convert people as well. Badal and the SGPC tell Sants and Babas off for not doing enough in East Punjab. If they cant do it where they live we cant expect them to do it in another place that is now a foreign country. That is unless someone is willing to contact Sants and Babas and see who will commit. Who's got those kinds of links? It would be worth having a ring around. The people who looked after these places have died after they left or during Partition. All the survivors are old or dead and were only children back then. We dont know the full history of every Gurdwara as not every family passes down what happened. If we are going to be taken seriously by later generations who ask what happened to these places we need to plan for eventually sorting them all out. I know some have become colleges/schools/whatever but it is not as if the Pakistani government couldnt relocate them to new buildings and the East Punjab Goverment/diaspora meet some of the costs involved for guarantees that the Sikhs will get full control of these places back. We hear nothing in the West. This is precisely why East Punjab's government and institutions need to get involved and bring it to the wider world's attention. If Pakistan knows the eyes of the world are on it they are less likely to act stupid. We had numbers in 1947 and it did nothing especially without backup from East Punjab. This is why groups of Nihangs and well educated and motivated people would be better off. They would know what they are getting themselves into and know what to do if things went wrong without having to worry about women and children/old people. I doubt the locals would appreciate large numbers of Sikhs suddenly appearing out of nowhere. The last thing we need is for them to think we are taking over or make ourselves a soft target. Look at Afghanistan and the NWFP. There were hundreds of thousands of Sikhs there when the trouble started. What did we in the diaspora or in East Punjab do to stop it? Nothing. Do you think it would be any different if it happened in West Punjab? We need people to go and find out what is wrong and report back from West Punjab about what is going on. With more information we could come up with better plans to help them. Converting people is going to go down like a burnt Koran, just look at the current climate there. Moving people around just to look after places we want them to look after isnt bright idea, they may be safer in places they are established. I dont know, no one does, until they go and assess the situation. We cant trick them, we need to talk to them and see what they want. Getting random converts to 'repair' Gurdwaras is a bad idea too. These places were built with such intelligence, love and devotion that even after all the desctruction and decay they look better than the prefab type Gurdwaras built elsewhere. Slapping plaster and whitewashing everything like they do in East Punjab will just anger subsequent generations who try and piece together the past and compare the photos above to what we are likely to do to them. Read my post on the first page about the various things that can be done to rebuild the worst affected Gurdwaras in a reasonable way. The East Punjab government really has to pressure the Pakistan government to start allowing access. As more Gurdwaras are made available we should move on and sort them out.

You cleaning out your inbox would be a start lol. All I will say on a public forum is that people will get away with bad behaviour as long as they are allowed to. Threatening to leave Gurudwaras and build your own works. A lot of young people were I live dont even give money to the Gurdwara because of how the older generation treats them - this hasnt been lost on the older generation. Being stupid or lazy just because it feels 'normal' just wrecks our chances of doing anything and the committees know this. Add to that all the unemployed people with degrees and work experience sitting around doing nothing and depressing everyone. Gurdwaras could tap into that by using those with accounting/business/law experience and degrees to sort out their accounts and be more accountable by allowing those who ask to see the economic state. Or use these people to do sewa by providing services like legal advice etc. Hell, we could get some history and italian graduates and pay them to go and give Mr Kasoor a hand. The possibilities are endless for what Gurdwaras can do, there is a lot we can do that doesnt involve buying houses or giving it away to money hungry ubercharities. Things are getting bad in Europe and it requires a bit of foresight and unity from our elders to make sure we dont get screwed over. If Gurudwaras pooled their resources and used them we wouldnt have so many disenchanted kids, forget converting others when we cant even keep the people born into it. I wont go on about East Punjab too much, but wider publicity of what goes on there and naming and shaming culprits of bad behaviour would bring a lot of pressure and chance of repurcussions from Sikhs in the West. Dont be apathetic about your problems in South Asia. Yes, it is very complicated. a. I dont think we lose generations from not allowing mixed religious marriages. In a lot of these marriages they just end up in divorce. The kids get torn between homes and the Sikh wider family have to step in to make sure the kids dont get abused. My friend's brother married a gori and when he died she went off the rails. Her family didnt care and were a bit racist so the kid's grandparents had to step in and make sure their grandaughter didnt end up in care. Now she's doing great with my mate's family and it cant be said that there is a 'lost generation'. As for moneh I always thought the dividing line was whether the couple considered themselves Sikh. The gianis and babas should ask them whether they are Sikh. If they say yes, it doesnt matter if they are white/black or born in Siberia. But if they say no I'm Christian/Muslim/whatever or they are having a ceremony in a church or something to get the legal side done but want a bit of 'Bollywood' for the wedding photos, then the Gurdwara should say no. b. We could do that. But that might just split Sikhs even more or introduce distinctions and other dividing lines. Or not, you're right someone needs to think this all through. But getting committees, babas, sant, gyanis and wider community together to discuss this with logic and informative ideas isnt going to happen. There is no platform for such a discussion. Taken from the article: 'scientists from New Zealand and Canada decided to conduct their own research.//Women from both countries rated the clean-shaven look as significantly more attractive, the journal Behavioral Ecology reports.' So all that means is dont go for women from New Zealand or Canada as you have a lower chance. It doesnt say it's impossible. It's all rather mathematical. To be honest a lot of western 'scientists' spend a lot of time doing this kind of pointless research to be published by junk papers in the West. The saying 'dont believe everything you read' is apt in this case. I've seen a lot of bearded Sikh heroes in Punjabi films. Diljit Dosanjh is a trim Singh, but there are other guys in the Gippy Grewal films who dont look any worse or have less 'screen presence' than clean shaven men. I know, this monochrome globalised world with no real diversity or difference is disgusting. But there is a thing called evolution. Sometimes you got to keep one foot in one world and another in the other. Be big enough to be both. You never know what could happen in the future so you keep your options open. If that's the case it sounds like you need to cast your net a bit wider. I dont think there are any statistics for the amritdhari/keshdari/mona ratio in the UK. If your community is really small then you will be assimilated by the bigger community. It's happened to Sikh communities in East Asia and South America that didnt get new blood from back home. Exactly, where there is a will there is a way. That goes for women and men. Plenty of women out there looking for husbands too. Then some Sikh men will have to find wives where they can find them and raise their kids appropriately if they cant find Sikh women to marry them.

1. Bro, I doubt it was scientific. More like an opinion poll. Plenty of societies have had bearded men in large numbers and they never died out due to lack of children. The real problem here is how common beards and turbans are. The more women see them and the more comfortable they are with men who have them, the more likely they are to go out with them. Singhs in the UK get attention from Sikh girls and non-Sikh girls, even though some opinion poll may say otherwise, there are still women who are into beards. Ultimately all that stuff is skin deep, there are other things that women care about. Dont get down in the dumps or miserable about it, that will only cause more problems. In India with Singhs cutting their hair and the media portraying Sikhs badly, this may be why people are reluctant to date a Singh. The way around it is not watch those stupid shows or let kids watch them, and show that Singhs can be normal guys too. 2. I think you are overthinking it or trying to see patterns that are anecdotal. So what if so and so on TV has such and such girlfriend? There is a famous Sikh actor in the west called Waris Ahluwalia, he doesnt have any problems and he has a big beard. Sometimes you can see things that get in the way when it may not actually be true. 3. In the UK the keshdharis are in the same boat as the monas and they marry monis. Some monis arent into non-Sikh men and have married Singhs. Most of my family are not that religous now, but my cousin married a Singh she knew and they are happy together. It was his personality and 'normalness' that made him better than other guys. Decent guys, regardless of how they look, will never have a problem in the long run as long as they dont expect good fortune to dump a girl in their lap. Why cant it be like that in East Punjab? 4. I know not everyone can be like Diljit Dosanjh or whatever role model Singhs have for fashion style, but charisma/personality are something that can be worked on. Strength or confidence always attract women. Look, I live in the UK and I see english people who you would think that no one would ever have kids with. But they have a whole pile of kids. There really is someone for everyone out there, being negative wont do it. 5. Marrying a non-sikh moni who wants to be with you is probably better than marrying a sikh girl who has personal hang ups about her own people. It's up to the individual at the end of the day, dont care what others say, they're usually hypocrites. Feeling bad or self defeatist will only make things worse though, figure out a way to win. Sikhs married muslim women back in Maharaja Ranjit Singh's time and they managed to produce kids who saw themselves as Sikh. OK, I know it's not ideal marrying Non-Sikhs, but if you have to marry....

1. Ok , so it was discovered by accident but was it incorporated as evidence or was it extrapolated out to spin a story? 2. I dont know. Kasoor say there is a monument but he didnt take pictures of any inscriptions. So it's a bit like Schrodinger's cat, we dont know either way. But we also have to make sure beyond doubt that it is one and the same as was discovered before. Cairo is a big place and Kasoor has made mistakes in Rome that dont exactly fill me with confidence about this one. My point about the Punjab regiment is that with tangible evidence of where they were in Cairo we could pinpoint where they found it. 3. True, but a lot of people have similar names that can be misinterpreted. Khanak/Nanacus arent Guru Nanak. 4. It's a shame they didnt leave definitive co-ordinates for it. Chances are it is the one that Kasoor found, but we have to be sure.

Not really. There are plenty of Singhs in the UK who have no problems getting women. Talking to freshies from India who cut their hair for girls, being mona hasnt improved their success rate with Sikh women. Why we as a society think it all comes down to 'hair' I dont know. A lot of it is intelligence, personality, hobbies, fitness (muscles, healthy look), money etc. Ok some girls think a turban equals a highly religous guy, but that's because they have had bad experiences with turbanned men who act ultra religous and expect their woman to care for them like their mother did. Women dont want to look after a manchild for the rest of their lives, they want to be looked after themselves. It's a partnership. Look at it another way, no man attracts every member of the other sex. Women put off by a turban is their choice. Other women arent. Lol, is this eugenics Dal-style? Inbred apnay in the UK look like that due to economic, diet and lifestyle choices their parents made growing up. If anything they look no different to the goreh/sulleh/mixed race people from the same background. I dont think the two are linked. Mixed marriages are becoming a bigger thing but so are divorces. If they want to marry, they dont need to do it in a Gurudwara. Not everyone wants to be Sikh, a lot of people marrying Sikhs have a misguided view of Sikhs due to their spouses. They think they can turn up at an event and be the centre of attention, because of all the fawning over them from their brown doll/lover boy. When they realise Sikhs have white friends and arent bothered by the novelty of a white person at a brown event they get stroppy. Others have no intention with getting involved in the Sikh side of the family and expect their wife/husband to go through the hoops of acceptance for their own family/community. That's just the goreh. We dont need to talk about what happens when marrying into muslim families or the 'love jihad' that young musi boys and girls wage. Accepting outsiders is another thing entirely. It varies depending on a hell of a lot of things. Some in the older generation get quite happy when their kids marry goreh as they feel 'they have made it'. They are now inseperable from British society and all that blah blah. Funnily enough these same people get upset when they see a fauji with a chavni. How do you explain that? The British arent accepting either. They expect people to give up a lot and jump through so many hoops for acceptance. Even then it's not true acceptance. They still push back to try and make you want it more. Unfortunately so many of our lot fall for it all the time. Muslims just want more numbers to support their aims and sense of security with 'safety in numbers'. In reality and history, it just means that when the shooting starts we have more chance of getting them than they have of getting us. Overcoming our own internal differences is a far higher priority before we go fishing in other ponds.

http://youtu.be/keJ9s41v5tU