Niranjana

anyone??? where are all the tyar par tyar chardi kala singhs???

Truth Singh, I like your analysis! Short, Sharp and Sweet...

Gur Fateh! Hari, jtsingh and Iron Bangle, thanks you all for the kind words and sentiments. I appreciate your encouragement. Unfortunately, this wasn't so well recieved elsewhere where certain folks seem to think I have not 'stuck to facts' and simply played on 'word association'!!! I'm happy to have critical feedback, however it would be nice to have someone actually 'construct' a counter argument and specify the issues they have with your comments as opposed to blanket statements such as these or simply "I disagree, please keep your posts shorter Niranjana"...oh well!

Gur Fateh! Khalsacrazed, please could you provide some references to back up this claim? I appreciate that this is a sensitive issue for some to which I can relate being a strict lacto-vegetarian myself (in fact at times I have also gone through complete vegan phases), however let us not get emotional about this matter. I would refer you to the writings of Dr Andrew Weil and Dr Dharma Singh Khalsa, both of whom are vegetarian (the latter lacto-vegetarian like myself) however even they acknowledge the benefits of fish and fish-oils (please do not confuse the matter with environmental matters, as this also affects vegetables). Dr Andrew Weil although being ovo-lacto-vegetarian, even accept a form of 'bibek' (not sarabloh) but in terms of being conscious of where you eat, what you eat and who prepares the food and how. Khalsacrazed, if your argument agianst the eating of fish is one based upon your preferences regarding essentially a 'spiritual diet' for want of a better term, please state this and we can discuss this matter fully (again, note I am a strict lacto-vegetarian, however also note that I wear leather shoes and belts, play tabla and am considering learning the Taos...so an ethical argument can only go so far, let us be pragmatic). All I ask is that everyone keep their comments objective and factual, if personal issues arise (i.e. I 'feel' this or that) then state them as such, but accept this is your personal feeling on the matter. To argue and accuse each other of being manmat or cult-followers over an issue such as food is exactly the kind of stupidity Guru Nanak Dev Ji speaks out against in Asa di Var. The real 'meat-eating' Gurbani is against is that of abusing another efforts, taking advantage of anothers honest work (see my post above for the full article referenced). Forgive any foolishness on my part, I hope we can have an intelligent discussion on the matter and have all come to a mutual understanding. Gur Fateh! Niranjana

Gur Fateh! Just to spell it out, the Latin term, meaning ‘fonts of honour’ due to the recognised Right and ability to bestow Noble Honours works such that any "fons honorum" may grant a legitimate and authentic Title of Nobility. Bhai Sahib, you asked "Would you kindly explain why in your view a fons honorum is a pre-requisite to being an honourable person with noble "chivalric" qualities?" Again, to expand upon the terms in question, Chivalry has a discipline because ancient soldiers trained themselves daily through learning and practicing the arts of attack and self-defense. These arts gave rise to the idea of control of body, mind, and speech in the Knight. Further, the idea of social interaction developed because the Knight originally followed carefully the orders of his superiors who were interested only in battle with those who were eligible to fight--that is, civilians were not to be engaged in battle. From this idea of engaging only other Knights developed the idea of treating enemies and friends fairly and equally. Now to consider nobility. There are many interpretations of nobility - in the Mundane world it refers to those people who are set above the peasants or indeed certain works of art, and compositions of music that are noble in themselves. True morality, in Nietzsche's naturalism, is nobility; this is where we will find the "free spirits," the philosophers of the future. "Every enhancement of the type "man" has so far been the work of an aristocratic society." But what is nobility and how do we reach it, given the great odds against it in this world? The struggle for nobility is an inner struggle and it is, indeed, both difficult and dangerous. "The dangerous and uncanny point has been reached where the greater, more manifold, more comprehensive life transcends and lives beyond the old morality; the "individual" appears, obliged to give himself laws and to develop his own arts and wiles for self-preservation, self-enhancement, self-redemption." In the words of Yogi Bhajan, "Nobility is when other good takes priority over you". Essentially... The Noble ones are in command of their own time and resources, judge themselves and their actions by their own standards, and do things to do them well. The Servant does things to please another, judges himself and his actions by another person's standards, and does things to get them done. Nobles often also serve. Noble service occurs whenever one volunteers to serve and when one's own standards exceed the expectations of those who one is serving. I hope from the foregoing it is possible to see why I have referenced Nobility in the manner I have and that you find the answers to your questions. Best regards, Niranjana notes:- Noble comes from the French noscere -- to know: To perceive or apprehend clearly and certainly; to understand; to have full information of; as, to know one's duty. To be acquainted with; to be no stranger to; to be more or less familiar with the person, character, etc., of; to possess experience of; as, to know an author; to know the rules of an organization. (Webster)

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa the moderator formerly known as Gurpreet Kaur should be the best to fill us on Osho as I believe she's more familiar with his writings and sayings... ...I have read his book on the Mool Mantr many years ago, most of it from my memory was fine, however the reduction of Vaheguru to being Electricity was a tad too simplistic and misleading...but as I say this was some while ago... ...anyway, Bibi Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa Jeeo, please fill us in... Thanks, Niranjana

Narsingha, Please accept my apologies for 'disturbing' you! But we haven't as begun comparisons in any depth and certainlt your comments on acknowledging cultural conditioning is noted and will be applied. Niranjana

Gur Fateh! I would like to start a topic on the broad subject of the Devi or Goddess in world spiritual and religious traditions. This discussion is intended to expand to cover the role of the Divine Mother, historically in all traditions, an examination of the inter-relationship with femininity, art, culture, politics and such like and finally the impact of this today. Some my ask the relevance of such a discussion on a Sikh Forum, however, if we consider that in the Sri Guru, frequent references are made to Vaheguru as both female and male [Har Ji Pita, Har Ji Mata –Anand Sahib M3] and other times purely as female, and even more so in the Sri Dasam Granth [Kirpa kari hum par Jugg Mata –Kabio Bach Benti Chaupai, Charitropakyan]. The latter works as well as the Sri Sarabloh Prakash also include a series of compositions dealing exclusively with the Devi Chandi in her various forms. These are largely symbolical references, however I feel a thread such as this is imperative today, when increasing talk of these passages are coming in vogue and with them much confusion within the panth as marked by recent turmoil with regard to one notorious author and even in the cyber-forum world with many a witch hunt for supposed RSS sympathisers has been seen to occur. It is best for us as Sikhs to study and share this heritage in order to better understand the backdrop to our own, that way WE take charge of OUR own heritage and don’t leave space for the likes of the RSS to manipulate it otherwise. So with out further ado here we go...please ALL contribute, questions, thoughts, information, analysis....bring it all on!!! GUR BAR AKAAAAL Niranjana. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Introductory thoughts... We can find reference to The goddess, or Great Mother, in all traditions across the world, not just in India where they have survived. Europe in fact was home to the veneration of The goddess prior to the impact of Christianity. Similar traditions can be found in South America, the Far East and in Africa. “it is out of the primordial depths of her womb that the Universe and all life is born†From the European angle, the common belief of those worshipping The goddess is that Old Europe was once ruled by a matriarchal egalitarian religion which worshiped a matrifocal (mother-focused), sedentary, peaceful, art-loving, goddess between 5,000 and 25,000 years before the rise of the first male-oriented religion. This egalitarian culture was then overrun and destroyed by a semi-nomadic, horse-riding, Indo-European group of invaders who were patrifocal (father-focused), mobile, warlike, and indifferent to art following which the culture eventually assimilated into the more dominant patriarchal religion of the invaders. Interestingly one also finds alongside the raping and pillaging, the dominant male invaders killing serpents, which are thought to be a symbol of the goddess worshipers (obvious cross reference: Kundalini and Tantra?). It is thought that as the assimilation of cultures continued, the Great Mother Goddess became fragmented into many lesser goddesses, these were then later reduced to mere icons (as is the case with Britannia) or given more acceptable forms (as some argue with the Virgin Mary). Merlin Stone, [When God Was a Woman] exrpesses the view that disenthronement of the Great Goddess, begun by the Indo- European invaders, was finally accomplished by the Hebrew, Christian, and Moslem religions that arose later.(5) The male deity took the prominent place. The female goddesses faded into the background, and women in society followed suit. This is an interesting point to note, certainly if one looks outside of The goddess for moment and at the campaigns during the late 19th and early 20th centuries by Sikh reformists to have Gurbani translated into English through the likes of the disgraceful Ernst Trumpp and later through Macaufille, the emphasis made on the use of words such as Lord, He, the Master became all so common and certainly today, whether katha or discussion is held even in Punjabi, reference to Akal is almost always in masculine terms. No doubt, lip service is paid to the notions of Akal being without gender, however with concepts such as Pati-Parmeasur (Husband-Lord) being manifested within the Panth, so far as being incorporated into the Rehit Maryadas of the Damdami Taksal and that issued by the Nishkam Sevak Jatha, are indicative of male dominance that has occurred with the impact of the Semitic traditions and also through reformist Vaishnavs and such like in the Indian subcontinent. Jean Shinoda Bolen refers to The goddess as follows:- “The Great Goddess was worshiped as the feminine life force deeply connected to nature and fertility, responsible both for creating life and for destroying life†Which is probably a notion closer to the sentiments of those belonging to Indian Subcontinent vis-a-vis Kundalini and Adi Shakti. She goes on to say, "The Great Goddess was regarded as immortal, changeless, and omnipotent" prior to the coming of Christianity. The Semitic traditions and Christianity in particular saw God as transcendent, apart from nature, and largely as a masculine deity. The goddess worshippers held a pantheistic view of God equating God with nature, hence being is in all things and all things being part of God, albeit they viewed God in actuality as a goddess, the giver of all life and found in all of creation. More to follow....

Dynamic Banda, have a look at this article on some of the charges brought against the Knights Templar...notice anything funny about these! The Knights Templar: Innocent or Guilty? Article © Judith Long Author of The Last Mass of the Knights Templars When one attempts to delve into and/or reconstruct history in order to prove or disprove an occurrence such as discovering whether the Knights Templars were guilty of the accusations that King Philip and the French government brought against them in the year 1307, one should consider all the aspects of world history at the time leading up to and during the actual activity. It is my belief, after such a search thoughtfulness and talking with other historians, that the Knights were innocent of the charges. King Philip intended to devastate the Order by falsely accusing them of a variety of crimes that included the denial of Christ; sacrilegious acts upon the crucifix; obscene affection; disbelief in the sacraments; idolatrous practices; and arrogating unto themselves the power to absolve sin. All of these charges were discovered to be unfounded and disproved in a court of law.Significant factors revolving around the time of the Templar demise and potential results were: King Philip wanted more money and power = dangerous. The Church was in revolution and disorganized = non-supportive. The Templar Knights were both wealthy and powerful = a perceived threat to some rulers. Conflicts between educational standards in Paris and that of the Church = frictions. King Philips desire to engage his country in the Flemish and other wars = greed. Thus, a great wrong was done, the termination of a notable Holy Military Order, the Knights Templars. So we continue to delve into history, searching for reasons, rationale, justifications, and explanations to answer our questions. Hopefully our understanding is elevated as we analyze people of yesterday with the knowledge that we have today, and that we will strive to create a better world for mankind to live in. [Judith Long is the author of "The Last Mass of the Knights Templar."] That said, folks, let us also remember, the Knights Templar whilst have long beards and weapons and a strict moral code, didn't bathe!!! Ooooohhhhhh!!! Phoooowarrrrrrrr!!!

dynamic banda from the USSR...glad you like...check out the site too...it's really interesting...looking ahead, I feel prehaps a look at some of the English Mystical tales (King Arthur say) through Sikh eyes would be an interesting project...just an idea...

Here's some basic info...very simple, I know...but it's a start! Who Were The Knights Templar? (taken from http://www.templarhistory.com/who.html) The Knights Templar were a monastic military order formed at the end of the First Crusade with the mandate of protecting Christian pilgrims on route to the Holy Land. Never before had a group of secular knights banded together and taken the monastic vows. In this sense they were the first of the Warrior Monks. The Templars fought along side King Richard I (Richard The Lion Hearted) and other Crusaders in the battles for the Holy Lands. From humble beginnings of poverty when the order relied on alms from the traveling pilgrims, the Order would go on to have the backing of the Holy See and the collective European monarchies. Within two centuries they had become powerful enough to defy all but the Papal throne. Feared as warriors, respected for their charity and sought out for their wealth, there is no doubt that the Templar knights were the key players of the monastic fighting Orders. Due to their vast wealth and surplus of materials the Templars essentially invented banking, as we know it. The church forbade the lending of money for interest, which they called usury. The Templars, being the clever sort they were, changed the manner in which loans were paid and were able to skirt the issue and finance even kings. They were destroyed, perhaps because of this wealth or fear of their seemingly limitless powers. In either case, the Order met with a rather untimely demise at the hands of the Pope and the King of France in 1307 and by 1314, "The Poor Fellow Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon" ceased to exist, at least officially. Although originally a small group of nine knights, they quickly gained fame largely due to the backing of Bernard of Clairvaux and his "In Praise of the New Knighthood". Bernard at that time was often called the Second Pope and was the chief spokesman of Christendom. He is also the one responsible for helping to draw up the Order's rules of conduct. In European political circles, they became very powerful and influential. This was because they were immune from any authority save that of the Papal Throne. (Pope Innocent II exempted the Templars from all authority except the Pope.) After the crusades were over, the knights returned to their Chapters throughout Europe and became known as moneylenders to the monarchs. In the process many historians believe they invented the Banking System. The secret meetings and rituals of the knights would eventually cause their downfall. The King of France, Philip the Fair used these rituals and meetings to his advantage to destroy the knights. The real reason for his crushing the Templars was that he felt threatened by their power and immunity. In 1307, Philip, who desperately needed funds, to support his war against England's Edward I made his move against the Knights Templar. On October 13th, 1307, King Philip had all the Templars arrested on the grounds of heresy, since this was the only charge that would allow the seizing of their money and assets. The Templars were tortured and as a result, ridiculous confessions were given. These confessions included: Trampling and spitting on the cross Homosexuality and Sodomy Worshipping of the Baphomet Philip was successful in ridding the Templars of their power and wealth and urged all fellow Christian leaders to do the same thing. On March 19th, 1314 the last Grand Master of the Knights Templar, Jacques de Molay was burned at the stake. De Molay is said to have cursed King Philip and Pope Clement, as he burned, asking both men to join him within a year. Whether he actually uttered the curse or if it is simply an apocryphal tale; what remains as fact is that Clement died only one month later and Philip IV seven months after that.

Gur Fateh! Again (continuing from my comments under the notorious sexual assualts in Southall thread), I agree with your outlook here, albeit I have also referred to 5K's and the Kyshatriya Marg followed by Khalsa Singhs as signs of nobility and spiritual valour, however I must admit the term 'Mystical Chivalry' is an apt one! I'd like to reinvoke this thread, prehaps we could begin by discussing in turn the other traditions and how these may help us understand the various angles of our own and also learn from any errors made by these former groups in their history. Given that the Khalsa Roop (5K's Kesri, Blue, Horses, Weapons, Classical Sangeet, Poets, Darbari Rasam et al) are largely adapted from Rajput and Moghul Darbari customs, maybe these would be a good place to start...however...I had a quick peek at some books on the Kinghts Templar today when I waltzed into Folyes in London after work...and what happened here (from the little I did read) I find quite applicable to what has happened to Sikhi since the physical passing of Guru Gobind Singh... ...so if everyone's fine, let's kick off with the Knights Templar??? Bring it on folks...

Gur Fateh! Legendary Sikh Jeeo, please consider the following comments I made elsewhere. For the record, I am a strict lacto-vegetarian, but as I always stress that is my personal choice. Recently I have looked at this another way (if you have access to the article on Meat and Sikhi by Giani Sergill Ji, I recommend having a read for a balanced view on the subject):- Bhagat Kabir says that those who consume bhang (marijuana), fish (machhali is also a name given to a kind of drug), or alcohol, will lose the benefit of practising “Tirath Burt Nem†the holy rituals. However, Gurbani repeatedly says there is no benefit at all of “Tirath Burt Nem†like actions. In this hymn, the words, “Tirath Burt Nem†are used as a phrase (which does not mean these three specific things, that is, just these three rituals, i.e., visiting holy places, daily rituals, and fasting, but refer to all kinds of rituals. The meaning of the hymn, therefore could well be that one does not benefit at all by performing holy rituals or doing religious deeds, if one continues to lead a vicious life (sinful life). The message is that one must give up vices to benefit from religious practices. This hymn, thus, prohibits a vicious life, it does not say anything “for†or “against†eating meat. Now agreed for some, partaking in bhang and mahaprashad may equate to a vicious life, but this is a relative judgement dependent upon your situation. I for one, living and working in London, UK as a professional do not face the same physical challenges a front soldier would and can do without the need for bhang or mahaprashad, that said, should the need arise, then as I have stated elsewhere, I firmly believe that the Khalsa are Khshatyrias (Warriors) who can adapt to any situation and win... ...as Bruce Lee said..."no way is THE way" Forgive any foolishness on my part... GUR BAR AKAAAL!

Vaheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Vaheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! A question was raised on another forum about attending Churches (which I would expand to include all other places of worship) as a Sikh. A common recurring theme was that one can do so, but shouldn’t engage in reading another scriptures or praising their leaders with the use of some Savaiyae, Dohras and Chaupais from the Dasam Granth. Please find my comments below address to the forum members on this topic, I post these here for feedback from members of this forum who may not be part of the other discussion. As always I look forward to receiving your feedback, corrections, improvements or expansion on any of these points. Humbly, Niranjana NOTE REFERRED TO: You mentioned the Savaiya “Pahein gahey jabtay tumray...â€

Khalsa Sahib & N30, Any chance you could forward this info (audio) to me as well or give me the links for it? Would be grateful... Yours, Niranjana

Gur Fateh! Shasterkovich! Sri Bhaugautee Ji Sahai! Thank you for a most engaging and humorous reply! The Sauna is not something I personally use, as for guys in the 20’s in particular it can lead to all sorts of problems from the over heating of...how does one say it, “Thakur Sioâ€...yes that would be it! Back when I used to train at a Gym (I now train at home), I used to make use of the steam room frequently after a heavy workout to make use of the methol inhalation amongst other things...all I remember is my kara would heat up like crazy and scald my wrist! Whilst I don’t use such facilities at present, I know of other Singhs/Singhnees who do and ask the question generically...but I like your idea with the towel wrap for the shaster... As per DOMs, I note your comments on supplements, however I know not everyone here is fine with using supplements in this fashion...I don’t think you need to use painkillers for effective training...however, there must be more natural alternatives to the ‘technology’ you mention...I have tired some in the past, however would be interested in hearing more from the forum...Nihalo mentioned some interesting cocktails/tonics she makes from milk, almonds and oils...anymore on this front??? As per the swimming...LOL!!! You’re too funny!!! I must admit that the idea of keeping Sarabloh down my Kachhera whilst swimming or otherwise, doesn’t appeal!!! Anymore ideas for this...I mean practical ideas, so one can swim in any stroke without having their style/efforts compromised. As per subscribing to some sort of exercise and fitness magazine –I have read many and learnt a lot from them...however, they’re all intended for heavy meat-eating, heavy supplement taking athletes who do not have the pressures of a city working life nor do they have the routine of a warrior (after-all, why would you knacker a muscle group so much that you can’t do anything with it for the next 3-5 days? Fine for fitness models, useless for ‘Tyar-par-tyar’ Yodhas!)...that said, these publications do have their merits and I have used a lot of their ideas adapted for myself...just interested in hearing more from the forum for their experiences. Gur Bar Akaal!

Before presenting this information, I would like to make clear that the questions that follow, whilst I personally feel worth while to answer, are not raised by me and I am not part of the www.sarbloh.com authors/circuit. Whilst the forum may have its reservations about some of the authors, I ask that the forum please consider these questions seriously and provide an answer, as we are not discussing these individuals or the website. I am solely looking for “vivek†as we all ask in our daily Ardasa, these questions, I feel are worth answering. There are more questions on the site, I have for ease of discussion limited these to 4 topics with the questions I feel imperative to be answered given their daily impact in our lives as Sikhs, i.e. Nitnem, Rehit, Gurdwara, Kirtan and our Leadership (and hope that the authors of the website don’t mind this adjustment for presentation on this forum, I have omitted the others for later discussion, as whilst valid, these probably do not presently relate to the daily lives of most Sikhs, i.e. Sukha and Jhatka). I have left the question numbers unaltered for easy reference back to the site. For the record, I am not asking these questions as a supporter of the website nor as a means to discredit it. My interest lies solely in understanding the answers to these valid questions, which as I have indicated do impact our daily lives as Sikhs of whatever description or inclination. I simply request that we do not begin discussing the site (this has been done elsewhere), I make reference to the site only as it is the source of these questions and as such request that moderators please keep close tabs on this thread to ensure that only the questions below are answered and no personal campaigns against individuals, jathas, organisations or sampraydas begin. Finally, please when responding, could you kindly reference the question number to which your answer relates. I sincerely hope we can have a decent discussion here and look to learn from the questions about our past heritage and practice, take what is worthwhile, discard the rest and move on with greater knowledge...looking forward to learning from you all... Vahe-Guroo-Raakhaa... KHALSA REHIT: 1. Why do the ancient Sikh historical texts such as Sarbloh Guru Durbar, Gurprtap Suraj Prakash, Naveen Panth Prakash etc. speak of 'Treh Mudra' (three adornments - kard, kachera and kesh) instead of the '5 Ks'* (* The 5 K - kesh (unshorn hair), kara (steel/iron war bracelet), kirpan/kard (dagger), kanga (wooden comb) and kachera (breeches))? 2. Why do ancient Sikh historical texts speak of discrepancies regards manner of giving, ‘Amrit Sanchar’ (Khalsa initiation)? 3. Why do ancient Sikh historical texts give varied versions of Khalsa/Sikh litergy? (Nitnem Banis) GURU GRANTH 9. If the, ‘Kirtar Puri Bir’, is the original Guru Durbar of the ineffable Akali Guru Arjan Dev, then why are there so many mistakes in it? 10. Why did S.G.P.C. remove Dasam Guru Durbar from Akal Takht in 1941 where it resided since the times of Bhai Mani Singh Shaheed? 13. If the, ‘Treh Chrittar’, found in Dasam Guru Durbar are not Sikh scripture (according to modern mainstream Sikh ideology), then why do modern institutions such as the A.K.J., S.G.P.C., Sant Samaj, etc., who hold this belief read, ‘Kabio Bach Benti Chaupai’, in their daily liturgy and also use this text when initiating new Khalsa? This text is the concluding part of the last Treh Chrittar. 24. Why is the wording of 'Mool Mantra' (Sikh fundamental creed) given in the original source books of Sikh scripture, ‘Mohan Vali Pothi’a’, is different than in present day accepted Sikh 'Mool Mantra'? GURU PANTH 6. What is the Khalsa Panth (Nation)? If Khalsa Panth is but one as modern day Sikhs in general claim. Then why for example, does not the Akhand Kirtani Jatha (A.K.J.) Rehit (Khalsa code of conduct) not tally with that of the Shromani Gurudwara Parbandak Committee (S.G.P.C.) with regards to fundamentals such as the Meat, Keski (small turban), Pakhand Kirtan (kirtan not done to Raags), 'Naam Drirh' and Raagmala? And, why does the S.G.P.C. Rehit Maryada not tally with Dam Dami Taksal etc., and visa versa? 16. If only Khalsa initiated Sikhs can be true Sikhs, as modern Tat Khalsa mentality Sikhs contend, then, how do we account for the innumerable Sahejdhari (non-Khalsa) Brahmgiani (spiritual accomplished) Udasi, Nirmala and Seva Panthi Sikhs such as Bhai Khanaiya, Baba Gurbax Das, Baba Seva Das, Bhai Addan Shah, Bhai Vasti Ram etc in Sikh history? 21. Once the Budha Dal and Akal Takht Jathedar (leader) were but the same person up to 1922. Why was this age-old Guru-ordained institution then displaced by the British created S.G.P.C.? 22. If the Akal Takht Jathedar is the highest individual authority in Sikhism then why is he a paid employ of the S.G.P.C. and under the District Commissioner of Punjab? 23. If Sikhs are such upholders of truth then why do they tolerate such a obviously spiritually inept and corrupt British Raj-created institution as the S.G.P.C. in charge of its shrines where jathedars (leaders) are changed on an almost monthly basis? GURMAT SANGEET 7. If most of the Sikh scriptures are prescribed by the Sikh Guru’s to be sung according to specific Raag (classical Indian music meters) then why are the vast majority of Sikhs ignoring these Raags when singing Sikh scriptures? 8. How come the European harmonium has replaced traditional Sikh classical musical instruments in Sikh temples? All questions taken from www.sarbloh.com

OK, back to the topic, any thoughts on the impact of the DOMs (Delayed On Set Muscle Fatigue) and waking up Amrit Vela and combining with 12 hour working days? Also, what do you folks do with your shasters when running and swimming etc (in former case, I know a Kamkarkaasa usually works well) and if you're that way inclined when in the Sauna and other health treatments of a similar kind?

Again, welcome to Sikhi in the 21st century! Unless you belong to a particular group, jatha or organisation, we're either not going to tell you anything, because only we have the right to know God or we'll sell you the techniques through classes and workshops because we own God...such is the sad state of affairs!!!

Numerology? I’d be interested to hear what the Cyber Sangat has to say on this topic. Clearly an occult tradition, although its significance is still manifest in many paths, even within Sikhi numbers do have a recurring theme, namely 5, 10, 4 and the usual 9, 27 and 108 numbers associated with malas. The 3HO sangat have built upon this extensively with an elaborate analysis of numerological themes and their combination with Gurbani as well as Kundalini Yoga “as taught by Yogi Bhajanâ€. Shiv Charan Singh in the UK has a whole school built up on this subject and uses it frequently in his counselling services. SikhNet even hosted a Tantric Numerological (which I believe is still available) where one would have a basic free analysis done from their name and birth date and the results would provide a set of recommendations for the individual which would include say recite Sukhmani Sahib for 1000 days or Anand Sahib for 1000 days, do a particular set of a certain Kundalini Yoga (“as taught by Yogi Bhajanâ€) workout or to recite a certain mantra (say, Ek Ong Kar Sat Nam Siri Vaheguru) or Pauri from JapJi Sahib (say Akhan Jor...) a particular number of times (usually 11x, 31x or 62x) for a certain period (say 40 days, 90 days or 1000 days) all to work on a particular ‘body’ or attribute. Honestly speaking, this approach, firstly seems too simplistic in my mind to qualify as real Numerology, let alone Tantra and moreover, the recommendation say to recite Chaupai Sahib 11 times a day to help deal with certain ‘mind/spiritual’ which were frequently found under the Sikhnet of old (prior to the new moderators) I have to ask the the forum, is what? A genuine art or a distorted application of some Udasi legacy or are they in fact totally conjured up by Yogi Bhajan and a simple countering to the more complex methodology adopted by numerologists and Tantriks (if they ever did use this occult tool)? What place has numerology for Sikhs? Ask Shiv Charan and this chelea, they’ll tell you “the numbers help get behind all the religions!â€

No, but if you approach the prospersity archives at SikhNet, I'm sure they could be of help!

Nabhi, (punjabi, I believe) is a term often used by Yogi Bhajan and 3HO type Kundalini Practitioners for the 'Navel' centre. Without getting involved with the while 3HO side of things, from my experiences with more far eastern types of meditative activities and martial practices, the 'Dan Tantien' or navel point, for what of a better term, is one used whilst in meditative training under an adept, so what Sant Isher Singh is saying is not surprising. There are 3 such Dan Tantien points, one at around 5 fingers below the navel, another between the heart/solar plexus and the third between the eyes...I'm sure Sant Ji will progress individuals up towards these as they become more adept at the 'nabhi' centre... ...in short though, one can easily feel the nabhi, if my understanding is correct (i.e. nabhi = dan tantien) through even the most elementary of breathing meditiations...

Gur Fateh! Lalleshvari, you points on what you refer to a mystical chivalry are interesting and spot on, whilst not using such terms myself, I have always had issue with the 5K's and Sant-Saphai values being in my opinion "MIS"-translated and "MIS"-explained as being 'identity' issues...I'm sorry, but let's get real, in the Guru's times the Moghuls and in some instances the Rajputs too (although they mainly shaved their beards) looked indentical to Sikhs, hardly surprising when one considers these visual motifs (blue and kesri colours, beards, upturned moustaches, weapons, horses etc etc) to all have be adopted from these two ruling classes. I have always viewed the 5K's and such issues to be a case of 'nobility' in both temporal and spiritual ways....anyhow, I'm firing away from the topic at hand...so back to the issue of self defence and assualts, particularly on Sikh Women and children. Firstly, this is not a new thing, it's always happened...attack those who are the weakest, unfortunately though, as Nihal Kaur points out, these days Sikhs (male and females) are weak! During the Misl period, there are many sakhia of the likes of Jassa Singh Ahluwalia and Jassa Singh Ramgharia traing the women in their misls in the arts of close quarter combat (having recently seen some of these moves demonstrated, I cannot deny the similiarity in approach between these and the system of Wing Chun Gung Fu, which incidently was devised by a Female Warrior-Nun)... As per Sikhs today, this is a good topic that Shasterkovich has raised, with many implications as we see arising from the responses thus far. Reflecting on our history after Guru Gobind Singh's physical passing, certainly the above mentioned Misl period is very useful for gaining counter strategies when Sikh Women was prey to some quite vicious forms of sexual attacks and also that of the Naamdhari Period. Regardless of what present day Naamdharis may believe or practice, their contribution to the panth under the leadership of Baba Ram Singh was noteworthy and inspiring....so the strategies employed by Baba Ram Singh:- -Regular Chandi Path/Havans and Dasam Bani (compare with similar practices within other cultures too, through the use of daily reading and pratice of say Bushido texts et al) in addition to strict discipline of Naam and Nitnem rehit (and also prevervance of Gurmat Kirtan Maryada) -Regular Martial Drilling (kirpans were banned at the time, Baba Ram Singh, countered this through lathi-raksha drilling, i.e. being proactive and working with the situation, not over obsessed with showing 'robe' and flair) -Increased productivity of workforce, promoting enterprise and networking. -Actually Equality of Women by cutting at the root of the illness, through simplified weddings to avoid dowry stigmas et al, equal parchar, respect of feminity and heavy preaching against Kuri Mar. ...there is a lot more to this list, but let's consider these basic elements and see what difference they would make if reinvoked today and if needs be in more appropriate ways. Look forward to hearing from you...

you guys are too funny!!! get out a little more boys...there's a whole world waiting for your talents!

...oh on the Trinity and Triangular symbols, those of you who may be that way inclined, consider this aspect in addition to all else with similar trends pointed out by those who claim to follow the so called 'illuminati'...strange, very off the wall, bu interesting!... [Again, no offence intended to anyone]