Gupt Singh

the maryada does have holes in it, but i wouldnt say its a total mess. id like to see you do any better

there are a few points of contention but other than that, considering how long the maryada is, i would say they didnt do too bad a job. before the 1900s everything was a mess so it did a job in unifying the panth to an extent.

hari

i did say that kavi santokh singh said dodgy stuff, but i also said his views prove the ragmalla argument wasnt an invention of the british but has gone on for a while.

lalleshvari

do u question the rattan mala if old bir contain it? dont quote me but i think that the kartarpuri bir MAY contain rattan mala.

if it wasnt for the "evil british" singh sabhaists, its likely that rattan mala, falsely attributed to guru nanak, may still be in the granth today......do u believe in that?

some keski wearing girls also convert to islam. it starts when they get muslim boyfriends (wtfs a amritdhari doing with a boyfriend, never mind a sullah) ..... if u learn a lil bit about pisslam then you will know how to refute it when the time comes....

no, you are confused.

i havent stated that i dont believe in triyah chariter. a while ago i was arguing for it.

i used it for the sake of argument.

and no the brits did not start the debate over the ragmalla. some of your favourite historical texts, i think kavi santokh singhs one, might be filled with alot of dodgy stuff, but it also says ragmalla is fake. regardless of the dodginess of the author and book, it shows the debate has gone on for a while.

plus the fact that many birs dont have ragmalla in it, and many that do have kacchi bani like rattan malla......lallehsvari do u believe in rattan malla? if not, why not? why dont u believe other kacchi bani at the end of the old birs?

the kartarpuri bir has signatures of the same person done in different styles...........hahaha.......so how r we meant to do that jsb?

there will always be loads of controversy.....its unavoidable.....triyah charitrer has gurus signatures but it is doubted.....hakayat has no signatures but it is in an old bir......so what do we do?

just read what i wrote above that and u will see why it is debateable whether we are cuttin an ang out or not.

im repeating again...there are LOADS of old birs with extra material....are we cutting out stuff if we dont read them? just as there are old birs with ragmalla.....

for me its sum1 like baba deep singh......but since there is alot more info on bhai randhir singh so personally 4 me it goes to him......he was a wiked scholar, gurmukh, keertanee and a soldier aswell (revolutionary against the govt).....plus he went thru huge tortures in jail and his sikhi was still strong......went on a 40 day fast becuz he wasnt allowed to keep bibek.....

u cant blame the jatha for not believing ragmalla

since

old birs have huge amounts of added stuff, do we believe that too?

is it the bir banno bir (sp?) that has all the mahallas changed etc?

there are even differences between the kartarpuri bir and the damdama bir on stuff that hasnt changed?

some old birs dont contain ragmalla?

the argument either way is so evenly matched that the akal takht have said do whatever u like?

it would be a different matter if the issue of ragmalla was like japji sahib and it was obvious it was part of the guru granth. the fact that many birs have extra shabads and we dont read them....does that mean we have lost faith in guruji?

no one has actually touched these questions yet....the fact is that there is plenty of stuff that has been interpolated into sikh history.....nothing is black and white.....you cant just say "if you read ragmalla you are good if you dont you are bad"......

when people say "hes dressing like a black man" they mean hes wearing rudeboy clothes when he really isnt a badman - for example, a bahman wearing an avirex jacket, johnny blaze shirt, wu wear jeans and 5 gold chains. it just doesnt look right.

i appreciate your views but it was not babu teja singh who started the ragmalla thing. the entire issue has gone on for many many years before nad is not related. also remember that babu teja singh is not an olden day kala afgana - panch khand was original a respectable institution, he just lost it totally a bit later!

a lil off topic, bt apparently ppl wipe their bum with their left hand cuz they dont want their right hand to get dirty for eating etc.......bt when i wipe me bum i dnt get crud on my hand i use a tissue :roll: so wats up wiv that?????? (sorry if ive offended those who are frightened of poo)

jassa

yeh i agree man u no wot im sayin ...... bt nihung whatever ur name is, what i meant was, if we discount all those who have slightly different beliefs as us, then we also discount most of the founders of the singh sabha movement.....now considering that some of us are related to them possibly (we are probably all related to someone who didnt believe in ragmalla or whatever) does that mean that we are all kicked out the panth? or that all the singh sabha people were not sikhs?

there are also loads of birs with extra bani in it as is mentioned on the other thread......should we blindly put our faith in that or should we analyse it carefully? to say "the soul knows the truth" is just silly.......personally i have gone from believing in dasam granth.....to not believing.......to believing in some......to believing in all......then finally to believing in all but hakayat........my "soul" must hav bin kinda confused :?

coffees nasty anyway, and i keep my tea consumption to a minimum......its not like a major thing but u do get to stage where people say "i cant start my day without my cup of tea"

yes there will always be ****heads like kala afgana who twist gurbani because they are malicious, but the fact is i have never really seen any TRULY clear cut evidence either to prove it is, or isnt gurbani. the strongest thing one side can come up with is that it is in the kartarpuri bir (yet it can be argued the other way that the kartarpuri bir has scribblings, gaps, and incorrect authorings of mahallas which are corrected in the damdama bir) and the other side can say that the ragmalla doesnt really have any significance with regards to relating to every single raag (yet that can be countered by saying they all add up to 84 which is a special number in sikhi).........so its not as clear cut as it was in gurus times.....

i really havent heard anyone ever say "TAKSAL ARE THE BEST" or "AKJ RULE". people just argue over parts of the rehat. and i think thats good.....we arent blindly accepting what the SGPC have formulated, we are ensuring that what we have is exactly what we had in gurus times.....and in a way thats good i guess

most hte founders of the singh sabha movement didnt believe ragmalla or dasam granth......so its all well and good to say bani is most important (which it is) and those who corrupt it are evil manmukhs.....but without the singh sabha movement where wud we be now? in a mandir ?

yeh its all rubbish anyway

i usually wipe my bum with my right hand

and dont wash your hair on fridays ive heard......apart from the fact u have to do kesh ishnaan every day :roll:

ram rai purposefully twisted gurbani selfishly for his own personal gain.

those who do not believe in rag malla, dasam granth or sarbloh granth do it because they honestly believe it is not gurbani, for whatever reason, they do not do it to gain power, or openly proclaim it is not gurbani when internally they know it is.

in the early 1900s a huge amount of the panth rejected even ragmalla and dasam granth, does that mean we reject them and all their kiddies as outcasts from the panth? its likely that down the line one of your relatives had a scriptural belief that didnt match yours.

even now there is alot of controversy over some areas of the dasam granth. whilst most people agree nearly all is gurbani, why does hakayaat in the original 1696 bir not have any signatures of the guru on it? why is zafarnama often attributed to bhai nand lal?

im not saying i agree with either of the above, but such issues are not as clear cut as they seem. alot of sau sakhi has DEFINATELY been changed over the years, are we blasphemious if we do not wholeheartedly believe every line of it (and if you read the sau sakhi you will realise many of hte predictions havent actually come true when they should of)?

the real meaning of not associating with descendants of ram rai is to not associate with people who twist gurbani to suit their own selfish motives.

any job that is not

newsagent selling alcohol or tobacco

model walking up and down a catwalk

prostitute

pop singer

butcher

brewer

in the indian army

im not saying its forbidden, its just a fruitcake job.......i mean when u say "male model" what do u think of........other than the fact that it involves alot of ego and vanity.....

jjj

im sorry 2 say it, bt that kirpan looks shabby.

32 dollars for that?????? u must be kidding!

i doubt its real sarbloh since the handle n case are stainless steel....and its got a lil girly chain on it :roll:

i guess its better than my cheapo "taksali" one, but i wouldnt rinse 25 quid on it...........

surely, somewhere there must be a shop in uk, or a place to order kirpan to uk, where u can get a decent sarbloh blade!

oh and gurdwara dont have them. ive been to all the southall ones, none have a 12 inch one, they have these itty bitty 3 inch stainless steel ones.......

if there was a singh from gurus times who saw some of the stuff that gets passed off for a kirpan today......he wud most definately laugh. a lot.

well if u want to u can, but i wouldnt be proud of being a model or having sikh models. modelling is a really dodgy job.......alot of people walk on the wrong side of the road.....if u know what i mean

jjj

can i have a link to the gangstah 12 inch sarbloh kirpan on sikhlink?

are u sure its sarbloh.....like some say sarbloh but have a chrome plated end....man that really stresses me out.....

also quality wise how is it....like is it ur average cheapo blade....or is it quite good?

yeh i heard that story. its jus a case of getting into a routine/rhythmn...

when u do all ur paath tho......like the full 2hrs (japji jap swaiyyas chopai full anand).....do u get propa spiritual feeling all the way thru?

jjj

u have obviously got a much stronger rehat than me....

i struggle to do amritvela at all on a regular basis.......for u its orite....but for me i cant really say "ill just naamjaap all day" cuz in reality i barely do enuf naamjaap anyway......im gnna take it step at a time........i dont even do my full nitnem anymore .....first i will do all my nitnem daily....then ill start doing amritvela again (i go thru periods where i follow rehat propa and then lapse again)....then ill start sleeping less......n hopefully by then ill b ready 4 amrit........

i didnt go to be one night and i was knackered for the entire next day.

another time i stayed up till 4 and only got a few hours sleep and i had to snooze the next day

maybe it takes a while for ur body clock to cope, but when i do "normal" amritvela its not so bad

aight aight aight

its bin corrected...havin red it ova again i rekon i did emphasise the guru aspect

as for the science bits....well to be honest alot of the ones MI posted were good but the backing behind it was a bit shakey.....like the rocks and stones one is translated differently by other authors.....and the moon and sun bit should actually be translated as "out of fear of god hte sun and moon exist"......etc.....i may use sum tho......but it would be embarrassing to have a quote refuted by sum1

altho its likely it will stay as an ebook......is it true some gurdwaras offer free printing of sikhi related books????

thnx 4 ur input.......

considering that so far theres 40 pages n im doing them pretty quickly, plus the fact i dont get virtually any time to do it during hte week, i do have the odd mistakes in there...........ill rephrase it......it dnt mean its got christian influence......bt eitha way guru granth sahib is still the holy book of the sikhs :roll: