Punjabi Written In Gurmukhi And Shahmukhi And?

[johnyork]

When some people from Punjab, India say they write in Punjabi and I ask them if they write in Gurmukhi and they say, "no, I write in Punjabi". What exactly are they saying? I ask them if it was the same as Gurmukhi and they said no. They said the spelling is different. When I have seen the writing, it looks like Gurmukhi, but with (Hindi script/Devanagari) characteristics. However, it was definitely not Devanagari. It look like some kind of "Punjabi shorthand" if you will. So if it is not Gurmukhi script, then what do you call it?

I think Gurmukhi is for writing formal Punjabi (what I learned) and the Gurmukhi like script they use is for writing Punjabi shorthand.

[dalsingh101]

Interesting?

Never heard that before.

Maybe you could post some examples of this 'Panjabi' script.

BTW, some of us feel that the Gurmukhi script should have been called 'Panjabi' to try and avoid the sectarianism that became manifest over scripts in Panjab.

[johnyork]

Dal Singh Ji, I will use the word ਟਿਊਸ਼ਨ as an example to better explain.

ਟਿਊਸ਼ਨ <= Gurmukhi script
टिਊਸ਼ਨ <= "Punjabi" script?

As you can see from this example, the ਸਿਹਾਰੀ and the ਟੈਂਕਾ in the Gurmukhi script are the Guru Angad Dev Ji standardized Gurmukhi characters we expect to see. The script being referred to as "Punjabi" has what I would consider "Devanagari" characters as part of the word.

[dalsingh101]

Okay.

Very interesting. Not come across that before. It's like a hybrid script.

It would be handy for Gurmukhi versed Sikhs as a starting point to learning the Devanagri script I imagine.

Thanks for the info.

I imagine the use of this script may fall into some sectarian dimension - us Panjabis have become terrible like that since the British annexation of our land and subsequently after.

[johnyork]

Impressed you could see the difference in the 2 example words. I have shown this to other Sikhs and they couldn't see the difference. I am guessing you can read both Gurmukhi (Sikh script) and Devanagari (Hindi script).

[Raaj.Karega.Khalsa]

I think it's the way the Hindi font has been made. When you read through someone's handwritten Hindi and Punjabi script, you'll hardly notice any difference between the 'sihari' and 'the other one' ( )

Edited February 11, 2013 by Raaj.Karega.Khalsa

[dalsingh101]

Impressed you could see the difference in the 2 example words. I have shown this to other Sikhs and they couldn't see the difference. I am guessing you can read both Gurmukhi (Sikh script) and Devanagari (Hindi script).

I can only read Gurmukhi and English (Roman script).

The example you gave probably wasn't a good one because of the stark similarity between ਟਿ and टि

You should have used an example where the difference was more visually pronounced.

BTW, I don't see this as any 'new' or alternate script - rather it is simply swapping and changing between Devanagri and Gurmukhi, probably motivated by some Panjabi religio-ethnic identity politics rubbish. lol

[johnyork]

Dal Singh Ji, very good reply. The reason I chose the words ਟਿਊਸ਼ਨ and टिਊਸ਼ਨ is because that is where some (not many) people (regardless of ethnicity or nationality) who write in Gurmukhi will write some characters from Devanagari because that is what they perceive to be Gurmukhi. The "ਸਿਹਾਰੀ" or "ਿ" which represents the short "i" sound is one of the characters I have noticed written incorrectly. It is because of the similarity, in my opinion, it is written incorrectly to begin with. They (who write with this Gurmukhi/Devanagari mix) acknowledge the difference by calling the script "Punjabi", instead of "Gurmukhi". I only expressed interest in it so as to investigate the truth. People can write in whatever script they choose. I just feel the whole blanket statement of Punjabi language is written in Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi is not factually true. This Devanagari/Gurmukhi mixed script that these locals in Punjab, India call "Punjabi" is not the Guru Angad Dev Ji standardized version of Gurmukhi that is the true Sikh script.

I am simply passing on this observatiion as I thought maybe others in this forum might find it interesting, thats all.

Edited February 12, 2013 by johnyork

[johnyork]

Dal Singh Ji, I did want to mention that I agree with you that it is not new. Localized scripts existed long before Guru Angad Dev Ji standardized Gurmukhi. I also don't consider this a variant of Gurmukhi. It is a Devanagari/Gurmukhi mix, which was referred to as "Punjabi" script by those who write Punjabi language using that scipt.

[Raaj.Karega.Khalsa]

Dear Johnyork,

I learnt to read and write Hindi at school, in India. We weren't ever taught about such difference or even to elongate that particular vowel. I did a search for Hindi text on google images and every single image supports your observation.

Interestingly, if you search for 'Hindi handwriting', you'll notice the difference and how it's not really elongated much.

There is another interesting image I found regarding Hindi fonts.

Look at the third line. The 'chotee ee' in 'nirmaan' isn't the same as others. I do think that it's only a digital font thing.

Also, look at the 'Sa'. The 'sa' in lines 1 and 3 differ from the ones in lines 2 and 4.

Edited February 13, 2013 by Raaj.Karega.Khalsa

[johnyork]

Raaj Ji, I hear what your saying Ji. Fonts will vary from one font to the next. I mean, that is the purpose of a font, to give the writer a choice of different typefaces. My central point in my discussion of this matter is "script", not "font". Think of it like this, you as a writer, have a choice about the "font" (or typeface or style or your own indicidual handwriting). The font is "choosable". The "script" on the other hand is set. Set in this context means "standardized". When Guru Angad Dev Ji standardized Gurmukhi, he did't say here are your multiple choices of script (characters making up the Gurmukhi alphabet). "Gurmukhi" and "Sikh Lipi" are synonymous. Gurmukhi is Sikh script and Sikh script is Gurmukhi.

Let's look at the word Guru. First written in "Gurmukhi" and then in this "Devanagari/Gurmukhi mix" or "Gurmukhi with Devanagari influence".

ਗੁਰੂ <= "Gurmukhi"

गੁਰੂ <= "Devanagari/Gurmukhi mix"

It is quite obvious in the above example, that the word "Guru" in the ""Devanagari/Gurmukhi mix" begins with a Devanagari consonant (ग).

ग <= this is not the Gurmukhi consonant we all know as (ਗ) (ਗੱਗਾ). That is a Devanagari consonant.

I want to point out that I am not chastising anyone for writing this way. I just wondered why some people kept calling this "Punjabi" script. I initially learned that Punjabi language was written in Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi. I can write in both scripts. After hearing about this other script or "Punjabi" script, I wanted to investigate and get to the bottom of this. I just wanted to be enlightened about this topic so I could speak intelligently about it in the future. So, unless I find information to the contrary, I will refer to this script of theirs as "Punjabi" script because that is what they call it and I don't want to deny anyone their culturistic identity.

[Raaj.Karega.Khalsa]

Dear Johnyork,

I completely agree that Punjabi is a language and not a script. This is exactly what we were taught at school too. Just exactly how Hindi and Sanskrit are written in Devnagri script, Punjabi is written in Gurmukhi script.

'Lipi' is indeed a Punjabi word for script.

I'm glad you started this topic. It's the first time I've actually note the huge difference between handwritten Hindi and the standardised fonts.

[BhagatSingh]

Johnyyork ji,

I think those differences insignificant and are just based on personal preference. ਟਿਊਸ਼ਨ टिਊਸ਼ਨ and ਗੁਰੂ गੁਰੂ are all in Gurmukhi, they are all equally correct. These letters are shared between Gurmukhi and Devnagri. There is no Punjabi script, if there is it is simply referring to the Gurmukhi script. Most people don't call Punjabi as Gurmukhi, they just call it Punjabi.

Look at old hand-written birs in Gurmukhi.

- ट in the fifth line from bottom, ग in the eighth line from top, and appears many times, the first line has ਗ

- ग in the bottom line, pay attention to how the siharis are elongated

Edited March 6, 2013 by BhagatSingh

[johnyork]

Good observation Bhagat Singh Ji,

I am noticing this more also, especially with handwriting. This is just one of those characteristics about the Punjabi language that you learn from real exposure. It just caught my eye, because it was not the text book Gurmukhi script I learned from my self-study. I understand some Punjabis will mix the scripts for a few consonants, vowels, etc.. I had to ask to find out though; so I can speak knowledgably about this topic in the future.

[dalsingh101]

Hey Bhagat!

Any new artwork in the pipeline?

[BhagatSingh]

Yo! I'm working on at least four actually, one of which is Guru Arjan Dev ji's shaheedi.

[dalsingh101]

Cool. When you've done these I want to see some Anglo-Sikh wars ones!!

PS - - I loved the Akali one with the forts in the turban......

I see you worked on the 'BAT Man' theme we once spoke of ('Big Arse T**ban Man)....hee hee

[BhagatSingh]

Lol BAT man has a utility turban, like how batman has a utility belt. I actually have one I was working on where utilities are being um...utilized, and a couple other concepts showing different types of turbans I but never got through them.

I don't really know much about the Anglo-sikh wars; gona have to research them first.

I saw a few nice paintings by Jason Askew on anglo-sikh wars. Check him out

http://www.jasonaskewgallery.com/#!gallery/photostackergallery7=0
http://www.yessy.com/jasonaskew/sikh.html

Edited March 8, 2013 by BhagatSingh

[dalsingh101]

Liking those Askew paintings.

When the time comes I can point you too some sources for the WASP wars.

Get what your doing done first.

[huma1985]

i agree with you