Why Wernt 60 Million Dalits Allowed To Enter Sikhi?

[Harsimranjit Singh]

Well? These sikhs would have been devoute GURSIKHs and nothing would have been better to increase an argument for a Sikh country. 60 MILLION Gursikhs; we barely have 750,000 Gursikhs on this planet! They were refused to enter due to the fact of their caste and stupid Sikh Leaders. It would have been brilliant; as these Dalits would have CLUNG on to Sikhi due to the fact that Sikhi would allow their previous caste to have been forgotten. Maan, this fills me up wid sooo much krodh! Sikhs could have had a country!

But then; the counter argument i presume is that these Dalits may have diluted Sikhi; and kept to some Hindu rituals which would have bad-faced sikhi.

I want ur opinion on this matter an d wud u allow these people to enter sikhi

[Guest]

What??? When?? Where?? When they denied?? Do u have source of this news??? who have denied them??? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[Harsimranjit Singh]

PLEASE READDDDDD; at least the first half! andd be ashamed!

Around 1935-36, Dr. Ambedkar, the unchallenged leader of the 60 million untouchables in India, openly expressed the desire that all untouchables of India join Sikhism to rid themselves of the thousand of years of serfdom imposed by the caste-system. Hindu leaders like Dr. Munje, President of Hindu Mahasabha, and Pandit Malviya, the eminent Sanatanist Hindu leader were totally agreeable to this plan. Copies of Dr. Ambedkar?s correspondence with these Hindu leaders were regularly brought to the notice of Gandhi. When Gandhi realised that the matter was close to finality, he released the whole correspondence in his newspaper ?Young India? without the permission of any one of them against all norms of civilized behaviour, warning the untouchables that, ?Joining Sikhism like this would permanently condemn them to apostasy from Hinduism.?

?After this, Dr. Ambedkar opened a direct dialogue with Sikh leaders to achieve his purpose, and this news spread throughout the country that the untouchables were on the verge of joining Sikhism. This is the time when foundation of Khalsa College, Bombay was laid so that it could function as the centre for the education of the untouchables of Southern India. At the time, even Maharaja of Patiala Bhupinder Singh offered to marry his sister in the family of Dr. Ambedkar to lend sense of pride to the untouchables joining Sikhism. But soon thereafter, such acute differences cropped up between Dr. Ambedkar and Akali leaders that Dr. Ambedkar and his followers became disenchanted with Sikhism and later joined Buddhism.

?Once in September, 1964, the author of these lines was sitting in the Bar Room of Chandigarh High Court, when Sardar Inder Singh Karwal, Advocate, High Court, narrated this story before a large number of people: When Dr. Ambedkar had openly given up the idea of joining of untouchables in Sikhism due to his differences with Akali leaders, he had sought to know the real reasons for this mishap from his neighbour in Lahore, Sardar Harbans Singh Jhalla, MA, LLB, Advocate (High Court Judge), who was then an eminent Akali leader; he in turn said he was told by Sardar Harnam Singh ji, ?You don?t understand these things. Should we had handed over Darbar Sahib to Chuhras by accepting 60 million untouchables into Sikhism?? Thus 69 million ?Ranghretas, Guru ka Betas? coming to the door of Sikhism were pushed away unceremoniously the way Guru Tegh Bahadur was not allowed to enter the Harimandir Sahib.

?But the facts are even more condemnable and ugly than what S. Harnam Singh had told Inder Singh Karwal, which the author of these lines has found out after enquiries from reliable sources. When in 1925, at the time of creation of Gurdwara Act, two groups came into being lead by Sardar Bahadur Mehtab Singh and Master Tara Singh respectively, Giani Kartar Singh, Master Tara Singh, Ishar Singh Majhail etc., the leaders of ?Akali Party?, found out that the ?educated? amongst the Sikhs, the product of the British education were tied to ?Gentleman?s Conduct? of behaviour and were averse and afraid of physical violence, abusive altercations and snatching or loosing of turbans. The best way to get such people out of the way for good from Sikh congregations, societies, meetings and Panthic service sphere was to expose them to the ?Singh culture? of abusive language and physical violence, which would force these ?educated? spineless persons to immediately wash their hands from the Panth and ?Akali Party?.

?This strategy forced Sardar Bahadur Mehtab Singh to give up ?Akali Party? and retire to his home, forced Baba Kharak Singh away from Panthic affairs, defeated and humiliated S. Amar Singh of ?Shere Punjab? and ultimately forced the Sikh intellectuals and the new educated progressive Sikh youth into the lap of Communism.

?This very strategy was used by the ?Akali? brains to force Dr. Ambedkar and his 60 million followers to become disenchanted with Sikhism.

?Dr. Ambedkar was himself a great strategist. He had understood that in the mid twentieth century, after the British left India, the principles and historical development of Sikhism alone could liberate the untouchables from their downtrodden condition, but could also bring around the predominance of the untouchables all over India for centuries to come. But for this it was necessary that Sikhism was in farsighted and wise hands. Thus he had started dreaming of becoming the unchallenged leader of the Sikh Panth. Had 60 million untouchables joined Sikhism as Dr. Ambedkar professed openly, then in 1947, Dr. Ambedkar would have been nominated to the Viceroy?s Council as Sikh representative, and only through him would have been decided what benefits were to be demanded for the Sikhs in free India, as Sikhs had already been accepted as the third successors to political paramountcy in India, and Dr. Ambedkar was not any lesser strategist than Mr. Jinnah and Mahatma Gandhi.

?But by 60 million untouchables joining Sikhism, ?Akali Party? would have lost its dominance and monopoly over the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee, and Sardar Baldev Singh would have lost his Sikh representation in the Central Government.

?When the ?Akali Party? realised this problem then after deep consultation they unanimously decided to permanently block the entry of Dr. Ambedkar and his 60 million untouchable fellows.

?At this moment, the ?Brain of the Panth?, Giani Kartar Singh suggested that, ?It was not difficult to deal with these educated people. They are not capable of withstanding even the first blow.

?With this background, Master Sujan Singh Sarhali was sent to Bombay to meet Dr. Ambedkar, and he in turn told Dr. Ambedkar plainly that he was a ?Chuhra?, and told him what the Akali Party thought of the moral conduct of his mother, and served him with the ultimatum that either he should join Sikhism within 24 hours or else the Panth would deal sternly with him.

?Hearing this pure ?Akali Language?, Dr. Ambedkar made the same decision any other educated person would have made.

?He assured the ?Akali Party? through Master Tara Singh that neither he nor any of his followers had any mind to even come near the Sikhs or Sikhi.

?Thus was saved the ?Panthic Leadership?, as well as the hegemony of Sardar Baldev Singh.

?Sardar Narain Singh, Secretary, Guru Nanak Mission, Patiala, and former Manager, Gurdwara Nankana Sahib has written as follows in his serialized essay ?Khalsa College Bombay, Why and How? in the weekly ?Punjabi Samachar?, Bombay dated 13th August, 1976, page 17-18:

?(Dr. Ambedkar) was actually inspired by his personal politics that Sikhs being a small community could not assimilate his in itself, rather he would assimilate it in his politics and become its unquestionable leader?. Everybody loved power more than religion, and it was all a game for enhancement of power.?

?S. Jangbahadur Singh editor of the eminent Sikh weekly, ?Shere Punjab? which was published by the renowned Sikh intellectual and politician S. Amar Singh from Lahore for 20-25 years, and which after him has been regularly publishing from Delhi by his son Jangbahadur Singh, writes on page 99 of the ?Diamond Jubilee Number? (1911-1971) about the reasons of Dr. Ambedkar?s frustration from Sikh circles based on the personal knowledge and evidence of his father:

?On Baisakhi Day of 1939, Dr. Ambedkar participated in the all India Sikh Mission Conference in Amritsar along with his supporters wearing a turban, and to demonstrate his decision to join 70 million untouchables into Sikhism, he made his nephew partake amrit to become a Khalsa Sikh. The delight S. Amar Singh felt at the prospects of increasing the numbers of Sikhs by 70 million within his lifetime can be seen from his writings. But soon Master Tara Singh adopted such policy that Dr. Ambedkar and his untouchable followers would not come near the Sikhs or Sikhism. ? Unfortunately for the Panth, Master Tara Singh developed the apprehension that if Dr. Ambedkar and his untouchable followers became Sikhs, then Dr. Ambedkar would become the sole leader of Panth and Master Tara Singh would loose his glory. At that time S. Amar Singh wrote in the ?Shere Punjab?, that, ?For the advancement of the Panth of Guru Gobind Singh, who had sacrificed whole of his family over the Khalsa, we should be prepared to sacrifice our

whole families to say nothing of political power or riches.?

?In 1936, elections to the Bombay Legislative Assembly were to be held. Considering the Sikhs as his brotherhood, Dr. Ambedkar sent message to Master Tara Singh that he had the chances of becoming the Chief Minister of Bombay State by leading his Party to victory, and asked the Panth in Punjab to extend financial help of twenty five thousand to him. Master Tara Singh found this as a golden opportunity to turn Dr. Ambedkar away from Sikhism and Panth. He came to S. Amar Singh in the Lahore office of ?Shere Punjab? and said, ?Look at this Ambedkar, he is asking money from the Sikhs.? Amar Singh ji replied, ?What are you talking about Master ji? If Dr. Ambedkar were merely looking for money, he could raise crores from Muslims or Christians, why should he turn to Sikhism? He is just asking for a small amount as a gesture of brotherhood. It doesn?t behove of us to suspect his intentions.? Master ji immediately changed his tone, ?I was just afraid that you would oppose me in the All India Sikh Mission if I gave thi

s amount. But now that you have also approved of it, I will send this amount to Dr. Ambedkar tomorrow itself.? S. Amar Singh told him with folded hands, ?Look, don?t procrastinate, in fact send him Rs. 50,000 instead of 25,000.?

?Anyway, Master ji drew the money from the account of All India Sikh Mission, but instead of sending a draft or cheque, gave the whole money to his protégé Master Sujan Singh Sarhali, and sent a message to S. Amar Singh that the money had been sent to Dr. Ambedkar. It came out after the elections that the money was lost in the way and not a penny was let reach Dr. Ambedkar. Instead, to further antagonize Dr. Ambedkar against Sikhism, taunts were thrown his way that he had tried to fleece money from Sikhs.

-- (From the Original in Urdu)?

?This money was neither re-deposited in the account of All India Sikh Mission, nor did it reach Dr. Ambedkar. It came to the uses of Master Sujan Singh and Master Tara Singh (Master Sujan Singh ate Master Tara Singh ji de hathin Guru laikhai lag gaye). K.S.?

[Guest]

There is more to this story and this whole article doesn't give the right picture. I will post more of this story later this week.

[HeyDudesWassup]

Why enter Sikhi just to get rid of the caste label? only should enter Sikhi for the love of Sikhi. what if all the newbies totally changed the course of sikhi to whatever they wanted to, ever thought of that? Ho wmuch confusion it would have lead to...

[Jassa]

exactly...i think wat ppl dont realise here is that he was using this conversion as a political tool.if they wanted 2 convert to sikhi they would regardless of what any so called sikh leaders tried...they would convert for the love...veerji is rite...just converting for the lack of castism in sikhi is wrong..

[Guest Javanmard]

Reql question is: Why do people still think that one should convert the Dalits first?

Buddhism became practically the majority religion in classical India because it converted the upper classes first and the rest of society followed. Islam could never have become that successfull because it was concentrating on low classes first. If Sikhi wants to spread in South Asia I am afraid we will have to convert the Brahmins and Kshatriyas first! The rest of society will automatically follow like a domino!!! Pragmatic logic!

[Mr §ingh]

lallesh I acctually think this is the First thing we agree upon

[Ideal Singh]

Lalleshwari Penji I agree with you...

I think Brahmins and Rajputs Kashtriyas desprately wanted to be associated with Sikhism since its inception but they have a serious attitude and ego problem with Sikhism. They know that Hindu Vedas are all but obsolete and thus they want SGGS to be proclaimed as their fifth Hindu Veda. But the main problem is that they did not want to relinquish the Manu Smriti either coz that has given them unrevered power to rule the masses in India for centuries.

The ego of power hungry upper castes Hindus is not allowing them to emrace Sikhism "as it is" becasue Sikhism eliminated casteism in its totality. I think it would not be a long hop by me, if I say that if Sikhs had sometime in their history agreed that yeah! they are part of Hinduism then they would readily become Sikhs so that they could also take pride in the glorious exploits of Sikhism.... I gather.

Attitude Problem U C,

Chardi Kala

[Guest Javanmard]

Manu smriti never was such an important text before the arrival of the British who made it a compulsory reading for colonial officers and students of "Hindu Law".

Fact is that since Guru Hargobind a great number of Brahmins served at the Guru's darbar up to Guru Gobind Singh. I personally know Brahmin keshdhari families whose lineage goes back to these Brahmins who served in Maharaj's court and honestly I don't think they have much of an ego problem. What's wrong with people being proud of their origins.

Why on earth do you think Maharaj used a lot of Rajput terminology regarding the Khalsa?!?!?!??!

That is why Udasis and Nirmale were used to convert the upper classes!!! Andf they were successful. If you look in Pakistan the only people who are still Hindus are the low castes like Chamars etc... whereas the Sindhis are Nanakpanthis and some of them even take khande di pahul.

NIrmale have very smart conversion tactics: If a Hindu says: YOu SIkhs are HIndus! The Nirmala says: In fact we SIkhs are the only real HIndus whereas you people are just lost. You cut your hair knowing that Krishna and the rishis did not cut their kesh. SOme of you pretend to be kshatriyas but never have shastar etc...

That's how Nirmale were able to convert people to SIkhi! AT the end of the 19th century were feared because they used to defeat Brahmins at the Kumbha Mela during theological debates!!!

Be smart and don't be stiff!!!

[Ideal Singh]

Manu smriti never was such an important text...

Did not get you ? If things were like this then what was castesim like during the time of sikh Gurus when they condemned it and if the poeple who propogated Manu Smriti (MS) were British... then did British land in India before Gurus ? :roll:

The fact of the matter is that Brahmins and Rajputs ruled the Hindu masses for 3000 years based on the writing in MS. Even today 75-80% of Hindu Population is designated as lower caste Dalits and other Backword Classes. So, I do not agree with you on your Brithish theory.

What do you mean when you say that there is no harm in people be proud of their origin ? Even MS, originally, does not make anybody Brahmin just by their birth in upper caste, only a persons according to his deeds would have made him a Brahmin or Shudra... What do you mean when you shower support for proud on your origin ? seems quite strange to me... Do you believe in RACISM :?:

Yes, Maharaj used a lot of Rajput terminology regarding the Khalsa? Then so what ? SGGS uses words taken from the terminology used by Kashtriyas as well as Brahmins as well as Vaishya as well as Shudra. So What ? Kashtriya terminology was used because there was no time to derive new terminology during the war times. Was there any other "Varna" from where terminology realting to wartime could be derived? So what if Rajput terminolody was used?

Penji, What smartness you are talking about... I am no smart but stiff :wink: ... please loosen me by enlightening me...

Chardi Kala

[Guest Javanmard]

1. Rajput dynasties were predominant in Western India only. I never heard of Rajput rulers in Tamil Nad :roll:

2. Caste did exist that is for sure but it is the British who reinforced it by imposing Manu Smriti as a compulsory reading whereas it was just a descriptive manual for Brahmins and by organising census and thus fixing the catse hierarchy whereas before caste was more flexible in nature: a jati (caste) could change its varna (class) if the whole jati changed its habits and occupations! That stopped with the British!

3. Caste is a social reality. It's in one's name. Even in Europe the family name designated the guild someone belonged to in the Middle Ages. Caste is a social reality BUT CASTE HIERARCHY IS UNACCEPTABLE!!! But when one does prachar one has to take into account the realities of the land and culture. The first Christian missionaries in early Europe always converted the kings and ruling class first. Why? Because everyone else will follow afterwards. Had they converted the low classes first Christianity would never have spread!