Fighting back this disbeleif in saints....

[Guest]

Lately, i been really thinkin about how sikhi is soo much blessed with puran mahapurkh's/sants/bhramgyanis/tatvedaie's.

I mean seriously, if you want to learn pyaar, nirmata in sikhi..go to sants to get updesh who are roohani jot of guroo nanak sahib nirankar. But unfortunately, not many people understand this or value saints in sikhism....People didnt even forgive guroo maharaj.. talk bad about guroo maharaj ji back in guroo's time.....same kinda people still exists in panth...they try do twist gurbani for their own gratification and try to spread up the message that sikhs dont beleive in saints.

Other day, i was talkin to mukh-sevadar of takshal (mehta) toronto. We share common points about how we need to preserve and maintain the respect for sants/mahapursh and inspire our generation youths (especially western youths) by motivating them to read lives of sants/mahapursh and fight back this propaganda certain groups propagates (infuse this anti-saints beleifs in hearts of innocent sikh youths].

Lets remember all the sant/mahapursh we have in the panth..who have pass every kind of test like a "murda" their murshad/gurdev has put infront of them and they have set up examples by followin guro maharaj's updesh 100%. If we cant learn from them than shame on us being sikhs.

As Gurbani mentions:

salok ||

kabeer kasouttee raam kee jhoot(h)aa ttikai n koe ||

raam kasouttee so sehai jo marajeevaa hoe ||1||

Shalok:

Kabeer, such is the touchstone of the Lord; the false cannot even touch it.

He alone passes this test of the Lord, who remains dead while yet alive. ||1||

They have scarificed their whole life to spread up guroo nanak sahib nirankar words:

[Naam, Dhaan, Ishnan]

Lets remember their bachans/updesh, learn from them and sort out our lifes with gareebi, nirmata, pyaar, saabar, shaakur, daya.

[Guest Javanmard]

I could not agree more with you N3O but my experience with sants is this: real sants don't advertise or go around 'organising' tours et. wearing extra special fantasy banas.

Sant Baba Ishar Singh is the example of someone I deeply respect precisely because he did not advertise himself as a 'professional' sant.

I am always very suspicious of professional sants who have internet sites and photo galleries where you can see them do tapasya when it is supposed to be a gupt thing.

My rule with sants is: be critical, play the devil's advocate (does that person have real nimrata etc...) only then listen to them.

[Mr §ingh]

I really agree with Lallesh in this matter

Bhull chukk maaf

[Hari]

My rule with sants is: be critical, play the devil's advocate (does that person have real nimrata etc...) only then listen to them.

Same here.I've always been very wary of these so called Sants/Brahmgyani's you get nowadays.Sants/Brahmgyani's are awfully common these days.I thought they were supposed to be as rare as precious jewels. :roll:

[khalsa warrior]

I could not agree more with you N3O but my experience with sants is this: real sants don't advertise or go around 'organising' tours et. wearing extra special fantasy banas.

Sant Baba Ishar Singh is the example of someone I deeply respect precisely because he did not advertise himself as a 'professional' sant.

I am always very suspicious of professional sants who have internet sites and photo galleries where you can see them do tapasya when it is supposed to be a gupt thing.

My rule with sants is: be critical, play the devil's advocate (does that person have real nimrata etc...) only then listen to them.

Sants do what GOD wants them to do. And you can also find pictures of Sant Isher Singh and even Baba Nand Singh sitting in tapasya.

what is a extra special fantasy bana? Guru Gobind Singh used to wear a kalgi that would in todays currency be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Do you think they would want their children to walk around wearing ripped clothing? There was one time when someone had doubts about Sant Isher Singh about all the clothes and perfumes.

You know that you are doing something right when you have nindaks.

There is not point in speculating until you have actually met the person yourself.

I agree with N3O Singh, people need to follow mahapurkhs. Without doing sangat of blessed ones, people are filled with ego, hate, jealousy.

Sants are joined with naam and have the guuns that are obtained from naam. If people listened to sants, it would be satjug.

[khalsa warrior]

What about the argument that some people (Anti Sant Jathas) come up with regarding the Mahapursh's, Sants or their followers during the 1980's/1990's. I have heard the question 'Why was only Sant Jarnail Singh Ji the only active Sant in Punjab at the time?' a few times.

These people always argue that Sants were too busy visiting Sangat abroad.

Please refer to my previous post: "Sants do what GOD wants them to do"

They do their duty that is given to them by GOD.

[Guest -akalsharan-]

All the irrelevant posts are deleted now. Stick to the topic!!!

Any kind of slandering to shaheeds or saints will be deleted without notice.

[Guest]

Anyways back to the topic:

Source: http://www.sikhpoint.com/religion/ind_nindiya.asp

NINDYA A DEEP MENTAL SICKNESS - MANSIK ROG

Nindya means negative criticism of somebody - to deliberate on somebody else's actions, character, integrity, lifestyle, behavior or other attributes in the negative sense, to discuss the presumably bad qualities and doings of another person, it can be in his absence or in his presence. This is a common fashion in today's society to either praise or criticize somebody else's character, actions, doings or behavior, or for that matter anything connected to the person being criticized. This criticism is normally created to let down the person being criticized in the society and in certain cases will go to extent of eliminating the person from the day today dealings and disrespect him in the society. However, this criticism can also be positive in some cases, where the group exclaims over the good qualities of a person beyond the reality, again it can be in his absence or presence - such actions are to praise somebody for his good qualities beyond the reality- this is known as Ustat in the divine language. The interesting thing is that Nindya is very enjoyable by the common people, in all practical situations you will note that people give a lot of attention to the negative criticism of somebody else, rather than gaining from that person's good qualities. In all such discussions propagating Ustat and Nindya, you will observe that for such a criticism the participants won't mind spending a lot of their time. There will be a very few people whom you will find avoiding such negative criticism, and concentrate and learn from the good qualities of another person. The Ustat and Nindya have been a part of the human character from times immemorial.

Let us evaluate and look at these qualities from the spirituality and Gurbani point of view. According to Gurbani there is no place for Nindya and Ustat in a Gursikh's life. Nindya - negative criticism of somebody else is a very serious mental sickness - Mansik Rog and so is the Ustat.

"USTAT NINDA DOU TYAGE KHOJE PAD NIRBANA

JAN NANAK EH KHEL KATHIN HAI KINHU GURMUKH JANA"

Though both Nindya and Ustat are prohibited in Gurmat, however, Nindya is a more dangerous and serious mental sickness - Mansik Rog. We should therefore not restore to Nindya of anybody, weather he or she is a common person being controlled by the Panj Doot (Kaam, Krodh, Lobh, Moh & Ahankaar) or a Sant, Sadh or a Braham Gyani, the consequences of Nindya are very serious and are sure to cause an irreparable damage to your spirituality as well as to your physical being. A Nindak - the person who is doing Nindya is a Manmukh and Maha Moorakh. Such a person might be reading a lot of Gurbani but never understand the Gurbani. Such a person have a black face - Kala Mooh in the Dargah and will be very heavily punished in the Dargah of Paar Braham Parmeshwar, he will be living in hell - Narak for a long time.

"NINDA BHALI KAHU KI NAHI MANMUKH MUGADH KARAN

MOOH KALE TINA NINDKA NARKE GHORE PACHAAN"

Whereas the Nindak will undergo such punishment as described above, the person who is being criticized will at the same time be heavily benefited from his Nindya. According to Gurbani for the person being criticized, the Nindak is better than the mother and father of the person being criticized. Mother washes the dirt of the clothes of her child, whereas the Nindak by doing Nindya will clean the dirt of the previous lives of a person - Janam Janam Ki Mun Ki Maile, with his tongue. Nindak destroys his current life and as well his coming many lives, before he can recover from the punishment given by Dargah and he lives in hell until then.

"JANAM JANAM KI MAL DHOWE PRAI APNA KITA PAWE

EHAN SUKH NAHIN DARGEH DHOYEE JAMPUR JAYE PACHAWE

NINDA JAN KO KHARI PYARI, NINDA BAAP NINDA MEHTARI"

SANT KI NINDA - is a very serious mental sickness as described earlier. Sant Ka Nindak is thrown into the cycle of 84 Lakh Juni, he is surrounded by very serious mental and physical sicknesses such as Aadhyan, Byaadhyaan and Upaadhyaan. He continues in the cycle of life and death for a very long time and goes through all the punishments defined in Ashtpadi 13 of Sukhmani Sahib.

"SANT KI NINDA JONI BHAVNA, SANT KI NINDA CHOGI KARNA

SANT KI NINDA DOOKH SAHAAN, DAAN DEV NINDAK KO JAAM"

Sant Ka Nindak will never be able to achieve Jivan Mukti, no matter whatever religious acts he performs - Dharam Karams, as the Nindak continues the Nindya the Sant will enjoy more and more Amrit and will be more and more elevated in spirituality. All the spiritual earnings of the Nindak are transferred to the Sant by the Dargah, and the Nindak totally looses his spirituality.

"NINDAK KI GAT KATHOON NAHI KHASME EWE BHANA

JO JO NINDA KARE SANTAN KI TIU SANTAN SUKH MAANA"

Bhagat Shromani Sant Kabir's neighbor died, at his death Sant Kabir cried a lot, he didn't cry when his parents died, even at the death of his wife Loyee He didn't cry, but people living around were surprised when Sant Kabir cried over the death of this neighbor. This neighbor of Sant Kabir was a very severe Nindak of Sant Kabir, not only himself but a lot of other people were prompted by this person in the entire Kashi who became Nindaks of Sant Kabir like his neighbor. So other people living around Sant Kabir asked Him why is he crying over His neighbor's death who was a very severe Nindak of Him, and you know what Sant Kabir replied - this neighbor had made His bhagti very easy, he was very helpful in His (Sant Kabir) bhagti, and not only that all the other Nindaks in the entire Kashi those who were prompted by him, were helping His bhagti due to his neighbor, so the death of this neighbor caused a big loss to Him (Sant Kabir), and that is why he is crying.

"NINDA HOYE TAA BEKUNTH JAIYE, NAAM PDARATH MANHE BSAAIYE

NINDA KARE SU HAMRA MEET, NINDAK MAHI HAMARA CHEET

NINDA HAMRI PREM PYAAR, NINDA HAMRA KARE UDHAAR

JAN KABIR KO NINDA SAAR, NINDAK DOOBA HUM UTREY PAAR"

Pancham Patshah has described in detail the effects of Sant Ki Nindya in Ashtpadi 13 of Sukhmani.

"SANT SARAN JO JAN PARE SO JAN UDHERAN HAAR

SANT KI NINDA NANKA BAHUR BAHUR AWTAAR"

Sant Ka Nindak's heart is full of dirty thoughts, his actions, words, and reactions are all controlled by Panj Doots. His mental condition is very week and he is carried away by bad thoughts very easily and quickly. The bad thoughts and words go inside him very quickly. He is always restless and longs for finding opportunities where he can do some Nindya. He is mentally very sick person. He never gets out of Jamam Maran Ke Bandhan. He stays in the cycle of 84 lakh Juni for a long time. He can't be saved anybody except the Sant whose Nindya was done by him, no other Guru or Sant or Akal Purakh can save this person from the punishments allotted to him by the Dargah. He can only be saved from such punishments if he goes back to the Sant he has criticized (done Nindya) and asks for His forgiveness, and if that Sant forgives him for his Nindya. Sant Ka Nindak will fell into the lives of snake, and other animals. He commands no respect at all. There are so many such punishments he has to go through and all such punishments are defined in 13th Ashtpadi of Sukhmani.

(The 13th Ashtpadi of Sukhmani is repeated here for the Sangat. Since it is very difficult to write exact words in roman English, we will very humbly request the Sangat to pardon our ignorance and mistakes.)

"SANT KE DUKHAN AARJAA GHATE

SANT KE DUKHAN JAM TE NAHI CHUTE

SANT KE DUKHAN SUKH SABH JAYE

SANT KE DUKHAN NARAK MEH PAAEE

SANT KE DUKHAN MAT HOYE MALEEN

SANT KE DUKHAN SOBHA TE HEEN

SANT KE HATE KO RAKHE NAA KOI

SANT KE DUKHAN THAAN BHRISHT HOYE

SANT KIRPAAL KIRPA JE KARE

NANAK SANT SANG NINDAK BHI TARE"

"SANT KE DUKHAN TE MUKH BHAVE

SANT KE DUKHAN KAAG JIU LAWE

SANT KE DUKHAN SARAP JONE PAYE

SANT KE DUKHAN TRIGAD JONE KIRMAYE

SANT KE DUKHAN TRISHNA MEH JALE

SANT KE DUKHAN SABH KO CHALE

SANT KE DUKHAN TEJ SABH JAYE

SANT KE DUKHAN NEECH NEECHAYE

SANT DOKHI KAA THAU KO NAHI

NANAK SANT BHAVE TAA OH BHI GAT PAHI

SANT KAA NINDAK MAHA AT TAAYEE

SANT KAA NINDAK KHIN TIKAN NAA PAAYEE

SANT KAA NINDAK MAHA HATHYAARA

SANT KAA NINDAK PARMESHUR MAARAA

SANT KAA NINDAK RAAJ TE HEEN

SANT KAA NINDAK DUKHIAA AUR DEEN

SANT KE NINDAK KO SARAB ROG

SANT KE NINDAK KO SADA BIYOG

SANT KI NINDA DOKH MEH DOKH

NANAK SANT BHAVE TAA USKAA BHI HOWE MOKH"

"SANT KAA DOKHI SADA APVITT

SANT KAA DOKHI KISE KAA NAHI MITT

SANT KE DOKHI KO DAAN LAGE

SANT KE DOKHI KO SABH TYAGE

SANT KAA DOKHI MAHA AHANKAARI

SANT KA DOKHI SADA BIKAARI

SANT KAA DOKHI JANME MARE

SANT KI DOOKHNAA SUKH TE TARE

SANT KE DOKHI KO NAAHI THAO

NANAK SANT BHAVE TAA LAYE MILAYE"

"SANT KAA DOKHI AADH BEECH TE TOOTE

SANT KAA DOKHI KITEH KAAJ NAA PAHUCHE

SANT KE DOKHI KO UDYAAN BHARMAAIYE

SANT KAA DOKHI UJHAD PAIYE

SANT KAA DOKHI ANTER TE THOTHA

JIU SAAS BINA MIRTAK KI LOTHA

SANT KE DOKHI KI JAD KICHU NAAHI

AAPAN BEEJ APE HEE KHAAYE

SANT KE DOKHI KO AWAR NAA RAKHAN HAAR

NANAK SANT BHAVE TAA LAYE UBAAR"

"SANT KAA DOKHI EEU BIL LAYE

JIU JAL BIHOON MACHLEE TADFADAYE

SANT KAA DOKHI BHUKHAA NAHI RAAJE

JIU EENDHAN PAWAK NAHI DHRAPE

SANT KAA DOKHI CHUTE AKELA

JIU BUAAD TIL KHET MAHI DUHELA

SANT KAA DOKHI DHARAM TE REHAT

SANT KAA DOKHI SAD MITHYAA KEHAT

KIRAT NINDAK KAA DHUR HEE PAIA

NANAK JO TIS BHAVE SO HI THIAA"

"SANT KAA NINDAK BIGUD ROOP HOY JAAYE

SANT KE NINDAK KO DARGEH MILE SAJAYE

SANT KAA DOKHI SADA SEHKAAYIE

SANT KAA DOKHI NAA MARE NAA JIWAAIYE

SANT KE DOKHI KEE PUJE NAA AASAA

SANT KAA DOKHI UTH CHALE NIRASAA

SANT KE DOKHI NAA TRISHTE KOI

JESAA PAAWE TESA KOI HOYEE

PAAIAA KIRT NAA METE KOI

NANAK JANE SAACHA SOI"

Bhagat Kabir have very strongly warned the Sangat to restrain from Sant Ki Ninda in His following Shalok, because there is no difference between Sant and the Almighty - the Creator, the Akal Purakh resides in the Hirda of a Sant:

SANT KO MAT KOI NINDO SANT RAM HAIN EKO

RAM KABIRA EK BHAYE HAIN KOI NAA SAKE PACHAANI

We will very sincerely hope that the Shree Sangat will listen to the above Gyaan of Gurbani and will very sincerely follow the divine advice which have been brought to us through Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Gyaan Saroop of Shree Akal Purakh Jee - the Shabad Guru.

[JOYce]

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