a requested clarification about Gurmat

[amardeep]

I agree with you matheen but when it comes to philosophy we have tons of similarities with the "hindues" and when i read the Bhagavad Gita or upanishads, i do not see it as reading books of other religions.. i see it as reading the philosophy of the Gurus, as they preached the same things.

[Guest]

here is an reply to kulbir singh post on tapoban under this topic:

//

Bhai Sahib Kulbir singh,

sorry for the delay in replying to your post, been really busy with gristh jevaan. I hope this post will bring tat khalsa parchar as khalsa spirit like to call it

I find it hard to believe that a Brahmgyani who has realized the ultimate will do such antreev arths of Gurbani that would contradict viyakaran of Gurbani. You say that when a normal person interprets Gurbani he or she uses Viyakaran but a Brahmgyani would not use viyakaran rules. Why is it so? If anything, a Brahmgyani would use superior knowledge of Gurbani Viyakaran to understand Gurbani. Just as Gurbani arths would come naturally to a Brahmgyani same way Gurbani viyakaran would come natural to him or her. Their surtee and Budhi would be tuned it to that of Guru Sahib and thus they would realize not only true meanings but also true Gurbani Viyakaran because when Guru Sahib wrote Gurbani they themselves created the unique Gurbani viyakaran so that Gurbani does not get misinterpreted. I give few examples to bring forth my point:

Veer kulbir singh, i never mentioned words like "contradict vikayaran of gurbani" "against vikayaran" . I beleive they are very strong words which does not do justice to describe my stance. There are three reasons i said Anubhavi arths are not bound by viakyaran (refering to teekakars who have done arths using vikayaran kausuti)

1) Gurbani vikayaran is a tool which is used to simplify dhur ki bani into bhav arths, Gurbani vikayaran is sampooran in itself but there are differences of opnions of scholars who claim authority over gurbani vikayaran, people who have used certain standarized vikayaran rules in gurbani yet couldn't fully standardized gurbani vikayaran sidhant, there are still loads of work needs to be done as article suggests above because there are vikayaran niyam(rules) made by scholars where scholars like prof sahib singh and others tried to apply it consistently in gurbani and failed. During this failure, sampardai arths/uthanka comes into play are equally valid because its coming from seena-basina tradition going all the way to bhai mani singh taksal.

For eg-

In academic missionary circle- prof sahib singh's teeka - Gurbani Darpan is considered somewhat authority to translate/interpret gurbani. Prof sahib singh teeka its far from perfect, has lot of mistakes in them( thats fine because he mentioned in his preface that my work is just tip of the iceberg). Please read Prof sher singh who is language vigyani in punjab university found his translations somewhat shallow and also check Dr Harkarit Singh view on vikayaran niyam..book is called- gurbani basha and vikayaran he bought some interesting analysis on vikaayaran rules translations of sri guru granth sahib ji and found one vikayaran sidhant/niyam(rules) cannot be applied consistently, here are couple of examples of many, in his analysis on vikayaran he writes.

- vikaayaran niyam explained by prof sahib singh does not apply to some parts in bhagat bani because some parts in bhagata bani rachna is written in marathi basha in sri guru granth sahib ji, because each language has their own grammar, also sidhant of vikayaran prof sahib used in japj sahib, same sidhant of vikayaran couldn't apply in rehras sahib consistently. There are even diversity within vikayaran interpertation of gurbani as article suggests.

- On different ocassion, sant gurbachan singh ji mentioned how yet again vikayaran niyam which was applied in certain shabad cannot be applied consistently in other shabads. Here is the audio recording of sri guru granth sahib ji katha by sant gurbachan singh ji: please fwd it to 17:00 minutes.

[www.gurmatveechar.org]

Quote:

If you guys are so against viyakaran and believe that deeper meanings are free from viyakaran rules then give some examples and post the meanings. I have read some deeper meanings by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji but they do not go against viyakaran. Instead, they are best explained using viyakaran. Only after studying it one understand its true essence.

Sant gurbachan singh ji did antriv arths via samparda seena-basina tradition done by mahapursh in taksal who were anubhavi coming striaght from bhai mani singh ji. He is not against vikayaran totally but he did found as stated above in audio katha of sri guru granth sahib done by him that he finds certain vikayaran niyam(rules) not consistent or accurate thats where sampardai arths and uthanka arths comes in handy.

Now question as of why i said anubhav arths of gurbani are not bound by vikayaran rules...not just antriv arths but uthanka of certain shabad is not bound by vikayaran either. I will give you three examples-

- Sikhi sidhant was challenged by RSS type people who were challenging Vahiguroo cannot be Gurmantar. At that point nirmale baba isher singh kalyug wale bought fwd 500 antriv arths of Vahiguroo mantar. Now tell me which vikayaran sidhant/rules he used when he bought fwd 500 arths of vahiguroo mantar? Sant jagjit singh said, arths are fully antriv in nature and if you were to do arths of vahiguroo in vikayaran you can go far 10 at the max.

- If we go by gurbani vikayaran we will not be able to do uthanka of certain shabad since certain shabads are directly linked with events involving our Guru Sahiban and bhagats..as some people who are premis of vikayaran of gurbani beleive that there can be one interpertation of gurbani.

- This is very important point, please try to understand this.

When this jev gets bhramgyan, their surti merges into nirankar, same nirankar dhur ki bani comes from. When bhramgyani does interpertation of gurbani via their anubhav bhramgyan they don't need to follow 1st step use vikayaran to get arths of certain tuk or shabad because they already realize the tat nichor(essence) of that certain shabad, tuk. They give out tat nichor of shabad or tuk which naturally will not contradict Gurbani vikayaran sidhant set by Guru Sahib himself not dunavi punjabi vikayaran. Gurbani vikayaran is still yet to be fully discovered. As vikayaran niyam(rules) set by scholars of the panth still not sampooran itself or accurate as the article pointed out along with sant gurbachan singh ji pointed out.

It is such an absurd thing I have heard that the jeev is made of 5 elements. Who says so? Please ponder upon the following pankiti:

har jeo gofa andar rakh kai, vaja pavan vajaya ||

(Hari placed the Jeeo inside the body and started the process of breathing).

This pankiti clearly distinguishes between the jeeo and the body. The jeeo is not made of 5 elements but the body is. So what did Vaheguru do? Place jeev made of 5 elements in the body made of 5 elements? No. The jeev is Abinaashi.

I admit i choose poor choice of words here, i meant to say body is made out of five elements but jev is in the body. Jiv atma is abnashi in essence but since antish karan doesn't recnognize its true self, until then this consciouness doesn't merge with super conscouness and become abhinashi.

And yes Atma is roop of Paarbraham Vaheguru but not Vaheguru. Please ponder upon the following pankiti:

Acharcj Katha Maha Anoop

Paratma parbhram ka roop

It clearly states the the praatma i.e. the Aatma is the roop of Paarbraham Vaheguru. This means it is the roop of it and not Paarbraham itself as Advaita Vedanta states. The very fact that Paraatma and Parbraham are mentioned separately proves that they are separate, though totally united.

Here we go again, all this already been addressed by J Singh in the following link from old tapoban forum : http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Text..._the_darbar.htm

After reading the debate one can easily fetch your views were same 3 years ago, same now, same will be after you realize your body as this is directly related to your surti based on your own understanding of gurbani. I have read discussion between jsingh and yourself three times.. its my all time favorite, that discussion touches finest of finest sidhant in gurmat. Everyone who is reading this discussion should definitely read that discussion before as well.

The above pankiti still does not fullfill your main cause..because that panktii is meant for certain state or surti as i mentioned earlier gurbani are meant different state of minds.. you cannot make a rule if gurbani is giving updesh to paapi, jaiagaso, same updesh is also given to bhramgyani.

Here is shabad where gurbani giving explaining avastha of gurmukh/bhramgyani. In this shabad two separate entities- joti(atma), surti(individual consciousness) merges into jot and surat:

Joti jot millaie surati surat sanjog ||

Clear distincation is made how joti(atma) and individual surti after getting bhramgyan merges with Param Jot and Param Surat no other than vahiguroo himself. What happened to the individual surti in this shabad? It merged into super consciouness nirgun roop which is sat chit anandsvaroop.

Here is another one

Pavanaie Mein Pavan Samaaiya Joti Mein Jot Ral Jaiya ||

Here is another one:

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਦੀਸੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਏਕੁ ਏਕੁ ਵਖਾਣੀਐ ॥

breham dheesai breham suneeai eaek eaek vakhaaneeai ||

ਆਤਮ ਪਸਾਰਾ ਕਰਣਹਾਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੀਐ ॥

aatham pasaaraa karanehaaraa prabh binaa nehee jaaneeai ||

You write that you gave many pankitis that state that the aatma loses existence in ekta with Vaheguru and I responded back giving example of Siri Dasmesh jee that ekta does not mean losing existence. Siri Dasmesh jee was very much existent even after being one with Vaheguru and this is evident from the following pankitis...Siri Guru jee is clearly stating that he became one from two. This means total unity took place. Now inspite of this union, Siri Guru jee's existence continued on. This is something you don't accept. Siri Guru jee in his own Gurbani (quoted earlier in this post) makes it clear that Vaheguru jee sent Guru Sahib and before coming a long dialogue took place between the two. So your concept of Vaheguru coming as Avatar does not stand in front of Guru Sahib's own testimony of how they came to Earth. Was Vaheguru talking to himself or was he talking to his Bhagat Siri Dasmesh jee, who was totally united in him, but keeping his identity?

Eh Badh Karat Tapasya Bhaiye || Dvaie Taie Ek Roop ho gaye

Chit na bhaie hamraie aavan keh

Chobi rahi surat prabh charnan meh

Joi taoi prab ham kai smjhaie

Em kahi kaae eh lok pataye ||

This is exactly what Siri Bhagat Kabir jee has written:

Kabir swarag narak taie me rahio satgur kaie gurparsa

Charan kamal ki mauj mein raho ant aur aad.

I am just suprised it didnt even occur to you even for one second that is quite possible that this deliverance might have taken place in sri guru gobind singh ji previous earthly life as dushat daman avtar at hemkunt.

Even If we go with your opnion on this that guru ji was given deliverance in spiritual world which you should said it implies guru ji had seperate vajood, conscinouness then how do you explain narsingh avtar(half lion and half man) who came to kill harnakash and save parlhad. Was narsingh avtar before arrival was chilling in sachkhand as well holding onto his vajood and surti. Was he also doing naam simran same where in the sachkhand?

Now it has been established beyond doubt that being one means to be absorbed in the Charan Kamal of Vaheguru forever and ever. It definitely does not mean annihilation of the jeev because as Siri Dasmesh jee has pointed out that the surthee (one of the components of Antishkaran) stay on even after merger. Mann too stays on because in Gurbani it is written that even Vaheguru has a mann. All this talk about antashkaran being of 5 elements is Advaita trash. According to Gurmat, in the 3rd Khand - Sharam Khand, the antishkaran of the jeev is reequipped or tuned for Sach Khand. Please ponder upon the following Pankiti for this:

Tithaie Gharaie Surat Mat Man Budh

Tithaie Gharaie Sora Sidha Ki Sudh ||

There in Sharam Khand the antashkaran (surat, mann, budh etc) get re-carved or tuned for Sachkhand.

Nothing is been established here mate, thats your surti based on your own understanding of gurbani. As guru sahib mentioned in chaupi sahib, jinni buddhi vahiguroo valu milli hai, uhni buddhi dwara bandai di sochni aa or here is an classic tuk which explains whichever surat: jehri surat tahi rahe jai ||

Calling antish karan as advaita trash just shows how frustrated you are with theory of atma totally residing in gurmat. That you went to call advaita(oneness with bhram/vahiguroo) as trash in intoxication of your hindu phobia, you just fell in a same dandal which kala afghana has fell on this matter

This is what I am saying too. They believe that after the antashkaran is destroyed, there is only Brahm but Gurbani does not support this. First of all, the mann and Surtee etc. don't die as I stated before. Secondly after falling of Aham (false ego, KuRai paal) the jeev and Vaheguru become one. Becoming one does not mean annihilation of the jeev as you state. Advaita really states that jeev realizes that he is the Brahm. This is why they call out Aham Brahmasiya. This is totally against Gurmat. Gurmat does not support this in any way.

As sant jagjit singh ji says prem bhagti marg and gyan of your self marg totally parvan in sikhi..as far as gurbani sidhant is concerned because gurbani there are many quotes of prem/variaag and many quotes of ekta wale shabad. As jaigaso we should do vairaag, prema bhagti but for bhramgyanis there is no paun there is no paap, as bhagat kabir ji after attaining bhramgyan he said:

sohang so jaa ko hai jaap ||

jaa ko lipath n hoe pu(n)n ar paap ||6||

ang- 1162

None of the pankitis you have quoted fulfill your cause. All the pankitis you quoted call for ekta of jeev and Parmatma but none says that the jeev is annihilated. The example of Siri Dasmesh jee clearly proves that being one means to get one's surtee absorbed in the Charan Kamal of Vaheguru.

I really don't think i have energy like J singh who had veechar on this topic with you for 20 straight days tried from all different angles to show you thats your preception of sachkhand, will remain your preception based on your surti. But thats not rule for everyone. You have proven nothing before nothing now that there is one premanent divine law that each jiv who have got bhramgyan holds on to its vajood.

If maharaj does equal kirpa on both of us when we leave our body, you will be there with your vajood(surti, consciouness) along with countless others who have same belief as yourself in sachkhand (place as you call it) because thats what your surti is attuned towards. But i will not be there mate so you won't be able to tease me ..hehe. I will be merged with that parmanand roop nirgun sarabvypak vahiguroo because thats what i wish for, call it annihilation, sucide, nothingness whatever you wish based on your own understanding.

If you call loosing one vajood and merging completly with vahiguroo is an sucide, annahliation, merging into nothiness what you will do when Vahiguroo decides to merge all his parpanch akar/sargun parsara into itself?

what would you call when vahiguroo decides to merge all his parpanch ? sucide..?

You will also have to merge in to same energy and loose your vajood, consicouness, indentity which you call annihilation where would your vajood be then?

Here are few shabads to ponder upon on the topic of destruction and creation of all pasara including physical and spiritual realms how one day all the pasara akara, asthohol, sukhsham, traie gun will all perish. This shabad talks both about spiritual and physical realms:

ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਪੁਰੀ ਮਹਿ ਸਰਪਰ ਮਰਣਾ ॥

eindhr puree mehi sarapar maranaa ||

In the Realm of Indra, death is sure and certain.

8 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪੁਰੀ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਰਹਣਾ ॥

breham puree nihachal nehee rehanaa ||

The Realm of Brahma shall not remain permanent.

8 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev

ਸਿਵ ਪੁਰੀ ਕਾ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਕਾਲਾ ॥

siv puree kaa hoeigaa kaalaa ||

The Realm of Shiva shall also perish.

9 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਬਿਤਾਲਾ ॥੨॥

thrai gun maaeiaa binas bithaalaa ||2||

The three dispositions, Maya and the demons shall vanish. ||2||

9 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev

ਗਿਰਿ ਤਰ ਧਰਣਿ ਗਗਨ ਅਰੁ ਤਾਰੇ ॥

gir thar dhharan gagan ar thaarae ||

The mountains, the trees, the earth, the sky and the stars;

9 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev

ਰਵਿ ਸਸਿ ਪਵਣੁ ਪਾਵਕੁ ਨੀਰਾਰੇ ॥

rav sas pavan paavak neeraarae ||

the sun, the moon, the wind, water and fire;

10 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev

ਦਿਨਸੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਬਰਤ ਅਰੁ ਭੇਦਾ ॥

dhinas rain barath ar bhaedhaa ||

day and night, fasting days and their determination;

10 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev

ਸਾਸਤ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬਿਨਸਹਿਗੇ ਬੇਦਾ ॥੩॥

saasath sinmrith binasehigae baedhaa ||3||

the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas shall pass away. ||3||

10 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev

ਤੀਰਥ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਪੋਥੀ ॥

theerathh dhaev dhaehuraa pothhee ||

The sacred shrines of pilgrimage, gods, temples and holy books;

11 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev

ਮਾਲਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਸੋਚ ਪਾਕ ਹੋਤੀ ॥

maalaa thilak soch paak hothee ||

rosaries, ceremonial tilak marks on the forehead, meditative people, the pure, and the performers of burnt offerings;

11 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev

ਧੋਤੀ ਡੰਡਉਤਿ ਪਰਸਾਦਨ ਭੋਗਾ ॥

dhhothee ddanddouth parasaadhan bhogaa ||

wearing loin cloths, bowing in reverence and the enjoyment of sacred foods

11 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev

ਗਵਨੁ ਕਰੈਗੋ ਸਗਲੋ ਲੋਗਾ ॥੪॥

gavan karaigo sagalo logaa ||4||

- all these, and all people, shall pass away. ||4||

12 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev

ਜਾਤਿ ਵਰਨ ਤੁਰਕ ਅਰੁ ਹਿੰਦੂ ॥

jaath varan thurak ar hindhoo ||

Social classes, races, Muslims and Hindus;

12 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev

ਪਸੁ ਪੰਖੀ ਅਨਿਕ ਜੋਨਿ ਜਿੰਦੂ ॥

pas pankhee anik jon jindhoo ||

beasts, birds and the many varieties of beings and creatures;

12 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev

ਸਗਲ ਪਾਸਾਰੁ ਦੀਸੈ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥

sagal paasaar dheesai paasaaraa ||

the entire world and the visible universe

12 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev

ਬਿਨਸਿ ਜਾਇਗੋ ਸਗਲ ਆਕਾਰਾ ॥੫॥

binas jaaeigo sagal aakaaraa ||5||

- all forms of existence shall pass away. ||5||

Here is 2nd shabad on this topic:

ਸਾਗਰ ਮਹਿ ਬੂੰਦ ਬੂੰਦ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਬੁਝੈ ਬਿਧਿ ਜਾਣੈ ॥

saagar mehi boondh boondh mehi saagar kavan bujhai bidhh jaanai ||

The drop is in the ocean, and the ocean is in the drop. Who understands, and knows this?

18 Raamkalee Guru Nanak Dev

ਉਤਭੁਜ ਚਲਤ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਿ ਚੀਨੈ ਆਪੇ ਤਤੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥੧॥

outhabhuj chalath aap kar cheenai aapae thath pashhaanai ||1||

He Himself creates the wondrous play of the world. He Himself contemplates it, and understands its true essence. ||1||

Here is another one:

ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥

jis thae oupajiaa this maahi samaanaa ||

Here is the last one, this one is very important to read and its quite poetic, guru maharaj ji talks about parsara of this akaar:

Bazigar Jasie Baazi Paie

Nana Roop Bhek Dekhlaie

Sang Utar Thaimo Pasara

Tab Ikaie Ikankara ||

Kavan Roop Dristio Binasio

Kaithe Gayoo Oh Kath Dhayo ||

Jal Tai Utaie Anakh Taranga

Kanakh bhookaie Bahu ranga

Bij Bij Dekho Bahu Parkara

Phul Pakaie Taie Ikankara ||

Sahet Gatava Mein Ek Akash

Ghat Footaie Ohi Pargas ||

I think you know what I am trying to say. Advaita does not believe in a Vaheguru who feels for bhagats and loves them, cares for them etc. According to Advaita he is Sat chit Anand in the sense that he is carefree of the world. Correct me on this. It also states that the world has been created out of ignorance but according to Gurbani, the world including the maya has been created by Vaheguru consciously and not as a result of some illusion or ignorance as Advaita states. This is why Vaheguru cares for this world. About his creation - he is - Vekhai Vigsai kar Vichaar|| Is this how the Brahm of Advaita too does i.e. look at his creation and be satisfied? No. The Brahm of Advaita did not even create this world. The world according to that Brahm of Advaita Vedanta is a result of illusion and not his conscious creation.

Tell me with honesty, does the Brahm of Advaita have the following attributes:

Santan Dukh paaye te dukhi|| Dukh paaye Saadhan ke sukhi||

Never. Impossible. That Brahm is Sada Chit Anand in his own saroop and feels not for his Bhagats. Look at the Brahm of Gurmat who feels dukh when his Bhagats feel Dukh and feels sukh when Saadhu Jan feel sukh. Is the Advaita Vedanta Brahm like this? No!

Advaita is theory of atma ekta with paratama. Therefore, they have only mentioned attributes of vahiguroo which relates to this atma being sat chit anand saroop. I agree advaita does not mention attributes to do with emotions as it gyan marg. But because of that, you cannot say advaita theory is not parvan in Gurmat.

Sant jagjit singh ji as sun singh quote again beleives in the Gurmat - sikhi prema marg and gyan marg both are parvan, for starters is prema bhagti but for bhramgyani according to their surtee/perception they could carry with this same prem bhavna or they could say, sing out all aloud from gurbani- sohang so jai jaap , ja ko paun, there is no paap or paun for them, they are above karams and reason its not recommended for jaigaso because they can become more ahankari with jap. This gurmat sidhant - prema bhagti/gyan marg is beleived by all samparda- nirmale, sevapanthis, taksal.

This theory has its roots in Vedas. Vedas have been rejected by Guru Sahib. The what is the standing of Vedas produced Advaita or the Vedas concept of Karma and reincarnation. Gurmat Karam Philosphy is different from that of Buddhist Karma and Vedas Karma. I don't know why you are under the impression that Gurmat has adopted the Karma philosophy of Hindus or Buddhists. I think you should read Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee's monumental book on Gurmat Karam Philosophy. The Napunsak (impotent) Karam philosophy of Buddhism and Vedas has been rejected by Gurmat. I don't want open a new front on Karam philosophy here, so I will stick to the topic on hand.

I never said theory of karma has orgins of hinduism. i said theory of karam is shared by eastern religions with few differences within them. I also don't want to open a new front on karam philosphy here as well, if you wish to discuss further kindly open up another topic as well.

What Anadi Anubhavi Mahapurash are you referring to? No one has been Anadi Anubhavi Mahapurash without the kirpa of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee. Those Anaadi Mahapurash who are considered to be Pitamahs of Vedant are slaves of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee. Please refer to the following pankitis for proof on this:

Who's greater in Hindus than Brahma the doer of Vedas? Who's greater sage in Hindu Dharam than Ved Vyaas who did the viyakaran of Vedas and divided them into 4 parts? Who is greater than Mahadev Shiv jee, who knows ultimate dhyaan and is the master of Yoga? Well, as per the above quote from Savaiyye Mahalle Pehle ke, they all are singing praises of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee. Looks like in due time they realized the true Guru - Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee.

Why don't you ask sant jagjit singh ji harkhowale when he comes to toronto next time on which anubhavi mahapursh he is referring to??

You are more than welcome to discuss this with sant jagjit singh ji. I have already discuss it with your student- bijla singh in quite detail on sikhsangat forum. I have no desire to beat the dead horse.

I have explained earlier that Karma, Vedant etc as explained in Hindu or Buddhist way has no place in Gurmat. According to the propenents of Advaita what did Gurmat bring to this world? It borrowed Vedant from Hindus and Karma from them as well. What is Gurmat offering to the world then? You guys are making Gurmat part of the Sanatan Dharma, for heaven's sake. While I don't have a phobia about Hindu religion like the extemists like Kala Afghana do, and I have respect and regard for these philosophies but at the same time, and I think of them as most exalted thoughts after Gurmat but I do believe that Gurmat is unique and not part of any old tradition. Gurmat of Guru Nanak Dev jee introduced to this world the true Nirgun-ism and it is the preacher of Gurmat Naam, without which no one can reach Vaheguru. Gurmat has not borrowed any concept from anyone. Gurmat is the source not borrower of knowledge. Gurmat is Vaheguru's own Dharma as per Bachiter Natak of Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee.

You see all your questions were already asked by myself and other singhs, sant ji answered them quite clearly. During the interview i even played devil's advocate and asked him all these questions, if you are not satisifed with the answers..no worries..when he comes next time you can meet him and request him to go deep.

I acknowledge these concepts but not through the lens of Advaita Vedanta. ... have already explained above that the jeev gets new or refined antashkaran in the Sharam Khand. I don't know all this talk about Kaaran Sareer or whatever. This all is not written in Gurbani. I have read about it in Hindu books and it seems like Sikhs have just copied it from there. Gurbani makes it clear that Mann is jyot saroop. Please look at the following pankiti:

First of, please tell me how and why the impersonal, carefree Brahm of Advaita Vedanta would be with the mann of the jeev, as stated in Gurbani pankiti above? Secondly, mann has been called jyot saroop. Then how can this mann not be with the jeev and Aatma when it's one with Vaheguru. Please ponder upon the following pankiti that clearly proves that Vaheguru too has Mann:

It's clear from the above stated pankitis that Vaheguru too has mann but Advaita Vedanta states to the contrary and you too mentioned that jeev too is of 5 elements. Mann is part of the jeev and is jyot saroop as stated above. As you can see, Gurmat philosophy of being is quite contrary to the one being preached by Sants through the lens of Advaita Vedanta.

You may not know all this talk about karan sareer as you said but karan sareer is third layer of the body. Gurbani talks about first, two layer

It's absurd to reject three layer of the body but acknowledge first two. In fact gurbani may not mention karan sirar directly but it mentions jagrath, saupan, sukhopat, these three avasthas are directly linked with three layers of body, panj kosh.

Now going to gurbani quote you provided, its excellent quote, explains it all by shabads like jot saroop, mool painchan.

Man tu jot saroop hai apna mool paichain ||

Advaita beleives avidya has diseased mind(mann) which in its orginal form was unman, guru maharaj giving updesh to mind with avidya - o ignorant mind, you are infact jot saroop...because of avidya you don't realize it but in fact you are jot saroop, recnognize yourself.

To back it up all claim above on man which has antish karan and made out of five elements cannot be jot saroop and how vahiguroo cannot have mann but unman(atam chaitanta) here are tuks, once antish karan is gone and man becomes unman then only they can taste their own atma/paratma.

As gurbani mentions describing state of bhramgyanis:

Man asaadh sadhai jan koe

Man maraie bin bhagat na hoi ||

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਜੀਉ ॥

eihu man panch tat ko jeeo ||

This mind is the life of the five elements.

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਲੇ ਜਉ ਉਨਮਨਿ ਰਹੈ ॥

eihu man lae jo ounaman rehai ||

When this mind is channeled, and guided to enlightenment,

ਉਨਮਨਿ ਮਨੂਆ ਸੁੰਨਿ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਭਾਗੀ ॥

ounaman manooaa sunn samaanaa dhubidhhaa dhuramath bhaagee ||

The disturbed mind has been absorbed in the Lord; duality and evil-mindedness have run away.

2 Gaurhee Saint Kabir

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਅਨਭਉ ਇਕੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ॥੪॥੨॥੪੬॥

kahu kabeer anabho eik dhaekhiaa raam naam liv laagee ||4||2||46||

ਜਗੁ ਜੀਤਉ ਗੁਰ ਦੁਆਰਿ ਖੇਲਹਿ ਸਮਤ ਸਾਰਿ ਰਥੁ ਉਨਮਨਿ ਲਿਵ ਰਾਖਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ॥

ag jeetho gur dhuaar khaelehi samath saar rathh ounaman liv raakh nirankaar ||

I think what you mean above was Eh Parpanch (not Sargun) Parbrahm kee Leela||

I am sorry about the quote above, i wasnt sure if gurbani calls it parpanch or sargun saroop. After little bit of research i couldnt find it so it was best not to write gurbani mentions this - sargun parbhram kee laal since i wasnt sure, i just wrote the line hoping someone would correct me and you did..thanks much.!

To all the readers who are reading this vichar, here are some final thoughts on this topic:

- I admit my knowledge in vikayaran is not very great but i m learning. I acknowledge its importantance. However, i also acknowledge based on reading book by looking at agam agadh bodh of gurbani, vikayaran(rules) niyam are made for gurbani are not accurate thats where sampardai's paramparik arths comes in gives valid interpertation of gurbani.

- As you can see from previous discussion especially the one i posted from tapoban forum titled - Condition of bhagats in Vahiguroo darbar, some of the points were bought up again which were adressed by jsingh already. However, i m glad that kulbir singh bought fwd up those points in this discussion because that lead me to do more khoj on this, during this khoj i came across with some stunning gurbani quotes above which totally debunks the "one rule theory that all bhramgyanis have their own vajood(indentity), individualstic conscinesss when they leave their body". It is even clearer after reading beautiful gurbani quotes that gurbani supports meta reality, based on your surti.

- From previous debates, few stuff were not answered by jsingh as why there is need for second merge when they already attained bhramgyan in this earth. After some khoj, this is where i disagree a bit with jsingh. There are quotes likes zeeman zaaman kai bhikaie samast ek jot hai na ghat na bhat hai na ghat bat hot hai || and other quotes above which proves that gurmukh bhramgyanis are fully merged with nirankar, all bhramgyani does tyaag their chola(body) this upadi, thats it, there is no second merge they are already merged with vahiguroo while living in this body, after bhramgyan there man has became unman, antish karans (karama di bhand) is destroyed, they are above karam (paap na paun) as explained in gurbani quote above by bhagat kabir ji.

- I too have provided have gurbani quotes to back up most of veechar i shared in this discussion. At the end of day, I m in no way to convince kulbir singh and other preconceived loyality to their group mindset. I have no intentions making people beleif on total merge theory where vajood being lost with gurbani quotes explaining destruction. Kulbir singh beleifs/stance same 3 years ago, same now, same will even after giving up his body because thats his surti there is no problem there as gurbani mentions it clear. However,when one tries to imply that all the bhramgyanis have their vajood(indentity), conscicouness when they leave this body thats where one's view contradicts in gurbani as gurbani supports meta reality and have given updesh to based on person's surti.

its a long post, i didn't proof read it properly. Bhul Chuk Maaphi for any mistakes in gurbani or if i said any koraie bachans.

VahiguroojikakhalsaVahiguroojikifateh!

[unbreakable]

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[amardeep]

Unbreakable ji, please explain the concept of reincarnation and nirgun/sargun using Gurbani alone.

[unbreakable]

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[unbreakable]

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[amardeep]

Tsingh:

You are awesome. Please come back to sa and share your knowledge