Sarbat Khalsa In Pakistan

[chatanga1]

http://www.sikh24.com/2014/06/platform-begins-to-prepare-in-pakistan-to-pave-the-way-for-sarbat-khalsa/#.U7LeaEDZ408

Recently in the news there has been talk of a Sarbat Khalsa to be held in Pakistan on Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Gurpurb.

What are your views of the "Sarbat Khalsa"?

DO you feel that it should only be held at Sri Akal Takht Sahib?

Why do its protagonists wish for it to be held in Pakistan?

What repercussions will it have on the Panth?

Do you feel only the SGPC should control this Sarbat Khalsa, as they like to think so.?

[dalsingh101]

Do you feel only the SGPC should control this Sarbat Khalsa, as they like to think so.?

SGPC is a completely corrupt institute - nothing less than modern day masands exactly the same as the type dasmesh pita excommunicated from the panth. Sikh institutes today are more of a political body for a certain caste and their money grabbing.

If they truly represented Sarbat Khalsa I'd convert to another religion...

Edited July 1, 2014 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

SGPC is a completely corrupt institute

I know (as do all) that the SGPC doesn't inspire any Sikh these days, let alone inspire any confidence in itself as an organisation, but it's unfair to label it completely corrupt. My reason for this is that I know a handful of its members, who are very good Sikhs, and do a fair bit in their constituencies.

But they are in a bare minority. We will only see change once like-minded people become the majority in SGPC, or hold more influential/state wide decision making positions.

The lack of attention towards Pakistan Gurdwaras saw the creation of the Pakistan SGPC. One would have expected the SGPC to have learned it's lesson from this, but it seems otherwise.

[aksantali]

SGPC is a completely corrupt institute - nothing less than modern day masands exactly the same as the type dasmesh pita excommunicated from the panth. Sikh institutes today are more of a political body for a certain caste and their money grabbing.

If they truly represented Sarbat Khalsa I'd convert to another religion...

agree!

[dalsingh101]

Thing is, one of the many beautiful things about Sikhi is the fact that I don't have to pay ANY allegiance to corrupt institutes as a part of my faith. One of the central planks of our Khalsa heritage is the direct relationship we have with our Gurus and Waheguru.

It is sad that organisations formed from the Gurdwara reform movement days have petered out into the monstrosity that passes for 'Sikh polity' today. I'll give all that shite the barge pole treatment...

It'll be better for my soul.

[dalsingh101]

But they are in a bare minority. We will only see change once like-minded people become the majority in SGPC, or hold more influential/state wide decision making positions.

That's like black people talking about joining the KKK and forming a majority to influence it in a better direction...

high hopes indeeed

[chatanga1]

What a phuddu! (only joking dal, I know how you like these openers)

I can't see how you would compare the SGPC to the KKK.

Why would a black person want to join a group that preaches white supremacy?

Why wouldn't a Sikh want to join the SGPC, which has the duty of management of Gurdwaras and preaching of Sikhi?

[dalsingh101]

What a phuddu! (only joking dal, I know how you like these openers)

I can't see how you would compare the SGPC to the KKK.

Why would a black person want to join a group that preaches white supremacy?

Why wouldn't a Sikh want to join the SGPC, which has the duty of management of Gurdwaras and preaching of Sikhi?

For your own sake, I hope your dress sense isn't as crusty, outdated and conservative as your political views....

Edited July 9, 2014 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

so you can't see the difference between someone joining an organisation to subvert it's aims and ideology, and someone joining a organisation to uphold it's ideology?

I hope you are not attempting to become the sarah palin of this forum.

[dalsingh101]

so you can't see the difference between someone joining an organisation to subvert it's aims and ideology, and someone joining a organisation to uphold it's ideology?

I hope you are not attempting to become the sarah palin of this forum.

The thing is corrupt, way past its sell by date. When a thing gets rotten to that extent, its better to start afresh, learning lessons, rather than continue with the infested, diseased beast.

You have to go outside of the rot because sooner or later the rot starts to infect those it comes in contact with, whatever their good intentions.

Are you really that simple? Did you not ponder how much undermining, surreptitious, underhand manoeuvres those already entrenched within will employ when some idealistic phudhu tries to get in and completely change the nature of the beast? We are talking about deeply entrenched vested interests here.

Anyone trying that will simply be overwhelmed by the petty politics to the point of being able to do little or nothing.

Anyway you carry on. I'll bet you'll find very few sane, clued up people sharing your optimism for the SGPC in this day and age.

Edited July 9, 2014 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

The thing is corrupt, way past its sell by date. When a thing gets rotten to that extent, its better to start afresh, learning lessons, rather than continue with the infested, diseased beast.

You have to go outside of the rot because sooner or later the rot starts to infect those it comes in contact with, whatever their good intentions.

Are you really that simple? Did you not ponder how much undermining, surreptitious, underhand manoeuvres those already entrenched within will employ when some idealistic phudhu tries to get in and completely change the nature of the beast? We are talking about deeply entrenched vested interests here.

Anyone trying that will simply be overwhelmed by the petty politics to the point of being able to do little or nothing.

Anyway you carry on. I'll bet you'll find very few sane, clued up people sharing your optimism for the SGPC in this day and age.

so rather than cure the infection, you would seek to finish it off? And then what? have another board in it's place which would be susceptible to the same rot? Your thinking is that of a unpragmatic phudhu. The SGPC has been on the slide for a few years now, but that is only a short part of its young life.

Only a fool would allow himself to become affected by the rot.

[dalsingh101]

so rather than cure the infection, you would seek to finish it off? And then what? have another board in it's place which would be susceptible to the same rot? Your thinking is that of a unpragmatic phudhu. The SGPC has been on the slide for a few years now, but that is only a short part of its young life.

Even talking from a historic perspective. Since when have Sikhs tied themselves to ANY organisational structure like you are suggesting. The historic precedent has been dynamic. From Abandoning masands, shaking off Gurudoms by descendants of Gurus, going from jathas, to misls to Buddha Dal/Taruna Dal to a monarchy!. Chief Khalsa Diwan, to Gurdwara Reform Movement. to Akali Dal/SGPC.

We are obviously on the cusp of our next restructuring. Only a brain dead phudhu wouldn't be able to see that..... lol

The next shift is going to be important. It'll be what aligns and positions us (globally) for the 21st century. SGPC/Akali Dal and other corrupt organisations don't cut it (nor do any other organisations right now for that matter). The ground is fertile for the emergence (or should I say blossoming) of something fresh. Something outside of the rot.

Only a fool would allow himself to become affected by the rot.

Only a fool would fail to realise that the vast majority of humans would succumb to the social pressures of the majority culture around them in any organisation.

I mean look at how much effort and focus has been made to straighten out the London MET (for example) and it is still a shifty, institutionally racist organisation.

[chatanga1]

We are obviously on the cusp of our next restructuring. Only a brain dead phudhu wouldn't be able to see that..... lol

We are on the cusp of nothing. There is nothing that is going to kill the SGPC off in the near future. Only a unpragmatic phudhu with his head in the clouds would see some like that.

The historic precedent has been dynamic.From Abandoning masands, shaking off Gurudoms by descendants of Gurus, going from jathas, to misls to Buddha Dal/Taruna Dal to a monarchy!. Chief Khalsa Diwan, to Gurdwara Reform Movement. to Akali Dal/SGPC.

It wasn't a reactive dynamic all the time though was it? Where there was a possibility, the chance for reform was offered, and exercised.

Only a fool would fail to realise that the vast majority of humans would succumb to the social pressures of the majority culture around them in any organisation.

I mean look at how much effort and focus has been made to straighten out the London MET (for example) and it is still a shifty, institutionally racist organisation.

Don't know about the MET to comment, but the point would be to avoid the vast majority of humans, who would succumb being selected or elected in the first place. It's called MERIT, in case you weren't aware.

[dalsingh101]

We are on the cusp of nothing. There is nothing that is going to kill the SGPC off in the near future. Only a unpragmatic phudhu with his head in the clouds would see some like that.

A hell of a lot of every day Sikhs at ground level in the diaspora (maybe the majority?) are totally disconnected and unconcerned with the SGPC and their doings in their lives. Only excessively politicised, generally insular, backward, pendu, northern monkey type phudhus, who mix mostly with other phudhus of a similar ilk wouldn't be aware of this.

No one is saying the SGPC is going anywhere anytime soon. What I am saying is that more and more people are likely to start refusing to defer to the organisation and its cronies in a natural process.

If this continues and the general mass of people lose faith in the integrity of the SGPC, alternative leadership (if even at local regional levels) is likely to emerge. In essence the SGPC becomes more and more irrelevant to their lives till they become totally disconnected to it.

What might emerge soon is something a bit more modern especially in terms of communication. We live in new world in terms of being connected electronically. I believe this will have a profound effect on the structuring of our global society in a few generations. The SGPC isn't doing well as a centralised, unifying, rallying point for the global Sikh community. Something might emerge to fill that void. It might be a very different beast to the SGPC? A lot of us (like me) want more educated and less conservative pendu jathedar types to have more input.

It wasn't a reactive dynamic all the time though was it? Where there was a possibility, the chance for reform was offered, and exercised.

That's a matter of opinion. In my reading of Sikh history, it seems bloody dynamic to me. Notice how all change is preceded by a general malaise towards existing structures/hierarchies. Change starts with a small groups questioning the validity and actions of existing structures which grows. What the general mood towards existing structures is right now is debatable. You and me probably represent two sides in the debate: You appear to think things are generally okay, I think they are quite abysmal. There will be many people like you, and many like me.

The other possibility is that apnay become so apathetic, that they groan BUT tolerate. Like the English generally do with their governments.

Don't know about the MET to comment, but the point would be to avoid the vast majority of humans, who would succumb being selected or elected in the first place. It's called MERIT, in case you weren't aware.

I think you underplay or fail to grasp the potent impact of 'organisational culture' on individuals in an organisation. By its very nature, politics attracts certain personality types and encourages certain behaviour - it rarely tolerates too much deviation from the general rules at play.

You can look at Obama as a perfect example of just how much entrenched conservatives can derail and undermine a person - even if they get the top seat.

Edited July 11, 2014 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

A hell of a lot of every day Sikhs at ground level in the diaspora (maybe the majority?) are totally disconnected and unconcerned with the SGPC and their doings in their lives. Only excessively politicised, generally insular, backward, pendu, northern monkey type phudhus, who mix mostly with other phudhus of a similar ilk wouldn't be aware of this.

No one is saying the SGPC is going anywhere anytime soon. What I am saying is that more and more people are likely to start refusing to defer to the organisation and its cronies in a natural process.

If this continues and the general mass of people lose faith in the integrity of the SGPC, alternative leadership (if even at local regional levels) is likely to emerge. In essence the SGPC becomes more and more irrelevant to their lives till they become totally disconnected to it.

What might emerge soon is something a bit more modern especially in terms of communication. We live in new world in terms of being connected electronically. I believe this will have a profound effect on the structuring of our global society in a few generations. The SGPC isn't doing well as a centralised, unifying, rallying point for the global Sikh community. Something might emerge to fill that void. It might be a very different beast to the SGPC? A lot of us (like me) want more educated and less conservative pendu jathedar types to have more input.

A hell of a lot of everyday Sikhs at ground level in the diaspora are totally disconnected with the gurdwara fullstop. those that are interested, especially of my generation, are very disconnected and disappointed with the normal gurdwara committees in majority of gurdwaras. But that doesn't mean we, or I, wish to see an end to the gurdwara committees, of course we want them to exist but to actually be effective.

The absence of genuine talented Sikhs mean that, as in the SGPC's case, inferior people get in and run things down. They are the ones to change, no the actual committee. Only knee-jerk southern fairy nancy phudhus with their bullshit slang and street knowledge wouldn't be aware of this yes?

Look in your own backyard at the upcoming elections in singh sabha southall. there is a 3rd group of young sikhs who are contesting the elections. dont know about their chances of winning, but at least they are giving it a go. but who's talking of writing of the gurdwara committee? no-one except phudhus.

It will be the same with the SGPC, the more and more people that are disillusioned with their performance will vote to bring in better people, once better people come forward to take responsibility.

You and me probably represent two sides in the debate: You appear to think things are generally okay, I think they are quite abysmal. There will be many people like you, and many like me.

no. i don't appear to think that things are ok, and i have never said that. where we differ is in our approach to deal with the problem. You have your head in the clouds with the notion of some impending revolution, whereas i can see the there is a more practical path to follow.

[dalsingh101]

no. i don't appear to think that things are ok, and i have never said that. where we differ is in our approach to deal with the problem. You have your head in the clouds with the notion of some impending revolution, whereas i can see the there is a more practical path to follow.

Nope you're too dumb to realise that you're only coming with the same old crap.

I'm not talking about any revolution; I'm talking about natural progression.

As you've alluded to in your post: whether we like it or not hordes of apnay (maybe the majority?) are disconnected from the Gurdwara. REALITY CHECK; if any thread is going to come along and weave itself between us, it isn't likely to come from there then is it. Too many boring crusty people (maybe like yourself?) put the average Joe off. (But let's not avoid self reflection here: hell even I'm aware of the fact that my own personal interests in Sikh historiography is one that is shared with only a relatively small group!)

I'm just hazarding an educated guess and suggesting that the source of unification for future generations may well be ICT based? People will find something to fill the gap, it's just hard to tell what it will be? The SGPC can't cut it globally - they are too backwards and the cycle of rural Panjabi politics is something most civilised people would turn away from in disgust or indifference.

There will be no revolution, just a shedding and gradual disconnect with an inadequate system with something that meets current needs. Plus you put so much primacy on the SGPC without realising how unimportant it is to the majority of diasporan Sikhs. Trying to equate a corrupt, insidious organisation like the SGPC with a Gurdwara at local level is plain stupid btw. We need Gurdwaras to lay off the dubious politics for a bit and concentrate on developing the spiritual and economic aspects of Sikh society in a fair way for EVERY Sikh, not the caste ridden shit that is normal today.

Edited July 16, 2014 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

Nope you're too dumb to realise that you're only coming with the same old crap

maybe. maybe you're so full of it that you think only your opinion matters.

As you've alluded to in your post: whether we like it or not hordes of apnay (maybe the majority?) are disconnected from the Gurdwara. REALITY CHECK; if any thread is going to come along and weave itself between us, it isn't likely to come from there then is it. Too many boring crusty people (maybe like yourself?) put the average Joe off.

well what stopping exciting modern people like yourself from doing something? Take the lead, let's see how it works out.

Plus you put so much primacy on the SGPC without realising how unimportant it is to the majority of diasporan Sikhs. Trying to equate a corrupt, insidious organisation like the SGPC with a Gurdwara at local level is plain stupid btw. We need Gurdwaras to lay off the dubious politics for a bit and concentrate on developing the spiritual and economic aspects of Sikh society in a fair way for EVERY Sikh, not the caste ridden shit that is normal today.

the SGPC hold more clout than you think. All hukumnamas that affect the Sikhs worldwide come from the same SGPC. the only difference that the SGPC is a macro entity whereas individual gurdwaras are micro entitiies. (i'm sure you know this.)

[dalsingh101]

maybe. maybe you're so full of it that you think only your opinion matters.

Or maybe I've heard all your shit before a thousand times.

well what stopping exciting modern people like yourself from doing something? Take the lead, let's see how it works out.

Been trying to do my bit for a while now. A few 'exciting modern people' have been. Why don't you join them instead of regressing into pendu politics?

the SGPC hold more clout than you think. All hukumnamas that affect the Sikhs worldwide come from the same SGPC. the only difference that the SGPC is a macro entity whereas individual gurdwaras are micro entitiies. (i'm sure you know this.)

If you think all Gurdwaras are simply satellites of the SGPC you're more stupid than I thought.

Most apnay know that the SGPC is a corrupt, casteist organisation in the hands of the Badal family; when will you smell the coffee? Or maybe your chacha back home is one of their pardaans or something? lol

[chatanga1]

Or maybe I've heard all your shit before a thousand times.

Surprised that one who loves his own voice hears anything else...

Been trying to do my bit for a while now. A few 'exciting modern people' have been. Why don't you join them instead of regressing into pendu politics?

but glad to hear it, and let's see if it bears fruition. I am always on the side of progress, and I avoid as much as possible pendu poliitics.

If you think all Gurdwaras are simply satellites of the SGPC you're more stupid than I thought.

I'm not talking about satellites. I'm talking of the same bodies controlled by similiar minded people, one which works locally, and one which works nationally/internationally. If you didn't know this, I'm scared, if you knew it but chose to igore it, then that's normal.

Most apnay know that the SGPC is a corrupt, casteist organisation in the hands of the Badal family; when will you smell the coffee? Or maybe your chacha back home is one of their pardaans or something? lol

I would be amazed if any knowledgable Sikh claimed that the SGPC isn't corrupt.

On the other hand, two Sikhs who I know of, are SGPC members and they both are working very hard to do combat the rot that is rampant in the SGPC. They know there is no overnight fix.

[dalsingh101]

Surprised that one who loves his own voice hears anything else...

I'm surprised that one who has so little to say, says so much...

but glad to hear it, and let's see if it bears fruition. I am always on the side of progress, and I avoid as much as possible pendu poliitics.

Keep deluding yourself: You ARE the modern incarnation of pendu politics.

I'm not talking about satellites. I'm talking of the same bodies controlled by similiar minded people, one which works locally, and one which works nationally/internationally. If you didn't know this, I'm scared, if you knew it but chose to igore it, then that's normal.

Ignore it like you turn your blind eye to the rampant, insidious caste shit stemming from your peeps.

I would be amazed if any knowledgable Sikh claimed that the SGPC isn't corrupt.

On the other hand, two Sikhs who I know of, are SGPC members and they both are working very hard to do combat the rot that is rampant in the SGPC. They know there is no overnight fix.

You carry on living in ladida land mate. Who are these members you talk of? Your chacha and taiya probably?!? lo

Not every last masand was corrupt, but enough were to warrant a shut down of that structure. Look at the politics of the people behind the SGPC. Giving out alcohol for votes. High level Akali Dal people involved in the drugs trade and whatnot.

You've got seriously low standards of what we can expect from Sikh organisations...

[chatanga1]

I'm surprised that one who has so little to say, says so much...

I'm surprised that one who has so much to say, says so little...

Ignore it like you turn your blind eye to the rampant, insidious caste shit stemming from your peeps.

I haven't ignored anything. stop being so arrogant, ignorant, and a downright phuddu to think that your peeps aren't an active and practising part of this insidious caste shit. At least I can acknowledge "my" peeps are/have been wrong, you are so up yourself, you can't even see it in your own peeps.

You carry on living in ladida land mate. Who are these members you talk of? Your chacha and taiya probably?!? lo

No, one is the nephew of Sant Jarnail Singh, and the other is Bhai Gurpreet Singh Randhawa, if you really need to know. No relation to me, but very active good Sikhs with working hard to make a change in the SGPC, and the areas in Panjab in which they work.

Edited July 22, 2014 by chatanga1

[dalsingh101]

At least I can acknowledge "my" peeps are/have been wrong, you are so up yourself, you can't even see it in your own peeps.

You can't even get your peanut brain around the idea of a person dis-identifying with one micro-identity for a grander one. Whatever you might think 'my peeps' are, I put primacy on a grander vision beyond that narrow shackle.

More importantly, don't even try and play down how jats have totally infused Sikh institutes with their phudhu mentality and nepotism leading to the decay we see around us. Most other smaller groups phudhu casteism is a reactionary movement to jat phudhuism. So even other jaats stupidity stems from jat idiocy. Your people are the causal factor.

No, one is the nephew of Sant Jarnail Singh, and the other is Bhai Gurpreet Singh Randhawa, if you really need to know. No relation to me, but very active good Sikhs with working hard to make a change in the SGPC, and the areas in Panjab in which they work.

That doesn't detract from the fact that the SGPC is a corrupt, insidious, caste ridden organisation. Going back to the OP - it would lunacy to promote the spreading of this disease in Pakistan. The people at the helm of the SGPC are obviously unconcerned about Sikhs or promoting Sikhi - so forgive the aam bundha for being a tad bit skeptical about their motives for getting control of Pakistan based Gurdwaras. It's probably just another money making scheme.

[chatanga1]

You can't even get your peanut brain around the idea of a person dis-identifying with one micro-identity for a grander one. Whatever you might think 'my peeps' are, I put primacy on a grander vision beyond that narrow shackle.

OK let's agree to disagree. The grander vision you talk about, I feel , is some dream. Maybe it's the same kind of dream I have, where there is a dynamic Sikh organisation that inspires other Sikhs to inspire in turn, but I seriously cannot see it happening anytime soon. It's better to have goals that are realistic, and achievable.

More importantly, don't even try and play down how jats have totally infused Sikh institutes with their phudhu mentality and nepotism leading to the decay we see around us. Most other smaller groups phudhu casteism is a reactionary movement to jat phudhuism. So even other jaats stupidity stems from jat idiocy. Your people are the causal factor.

You may be right, but that doesn't detract from the fact the other caste groups became part of the monster they despised.

That doesn't detract from the fact that the SGPC is a corrupt, insidious, caste ridden organisation.

No it doesn't but as I said earlier, there are ways of resurrecting the SGPC.

Going back to the OP - it would lunacy to promote the spreading of this disease in Pakistan. The people at the helm of the SGPC are obviously unconcerned about Sikhs or promoting Sikhi - so forgive the aam bundha for being a tad bit skeptical about their motives for getting control of Pakistan based Gurdwaras. It's probably just another money making scheme.

Finally, we can back to the topic. This is not about control of Pakistan based Gurdwaras, but about the Sarbat Khalsa that will be held in Pakistan.

[dalsingh101]

Finally, we can back to the topic. This is not about control of Pakistan based Gurdwaras, but about the Sarbat Khalsa that will be held in Pakistan.

I tell you what.

When I look at the global scene; especially Israel and Iraq right now.

Minority Sikhs are like sitting ducks all over the place.

I like to think that there is a smattering of Sikhs in the UK, to combat any 'funniness' that might go on. But that being said, in London the influx of whites from Europe is having a big effect on minorities.

Canada looks strong but then the grass always looks greener....etc.

America.......maybe less said the better?

Pakistan. It seems to be a hair breadth away from a next 'Islamic revolution'. What do you see as any sort of positive from a 'Sarbat Khalsa' there? Other than some phudhu politico-religio grandstanding?

If anything I think it should be a 'Sarbat Sikhi' anyway, given that most people connected to the faith appear to be non-Khalsa, Nanak Panthi types like the Sindhis.

OK let's agree to disagree. The grander vision you talk about, I feel , is some dream. Maybe it's the same kind of dream I have, where there is a dynamic Sikh organisation that inspires other Sikhs to inspire in turn, but I seriously cannot see it happening anytime soon. It's better to have goals that are realistic, and achievable.

Maybe you need to open up your mind a bit more then?

Edited August 8, 2014 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

Pakistan. It seems to be a hair breadth away from a next 'Islamic revolution'. What do you see as any sort of positive from a 'Sarbat Khalsa' there?

Thats what we are here to discuss. What is the difference in holding it at Sri Akal Takht Sahib, and Sri Nankana Sahib?

If anything I think it should be a 'Sarbat Sikhi' anyway, given that most people connected to the faith appear to be non-Khalsa, Nanak Panthi types like the Sindhis.

In the historical Sarbat Khalsas, the Khalsa Sikhs may have taken centre stage, but the panth from represented from all quarters, so the samprdayes and NanakPanthis would have had some input.

The term "Khalsa" in those days didn't apply on to Amritdhari Sikhs.

Maybe you need to open up your mind a bit more then?

No, I'll just see what you can come up with instead.