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paapiman

Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee Series - Charitar #21

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Also interesting to read the next to charitars - they are quite short and they show how the Raja despite difficult circumstances manages to subvert the situation so he is once again in power.

Charitar 21 - meeting of the two - exchange of ideas in terms of dharam, social reality, culture etc

Charitar 22 - Woman in power as the raja goes to jail

Charitar 23 - the Raja subverts the situation and takes the upper hand.

Edited by amardeep

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2 hours ago, amardeep said:

Also I think the line of crawling through her legs is some sort of Indian metaphor. The translation seems wrong and out of place.

Very much possible. Like for example, 

Quote

Naak Katna.

To cut Nose

Meaning:  To disrespect to to shame someone.

Unquote [1]

[1] - http://indian-idioms.blogspot.ca/2012/10/naak-katna.html

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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5 hours ago, amardeep said:

Also I think the line of crawling through her legs is some sort of Indian metaphor. The translation seems wrong and out of place.

Paapiman can  you put up the gurmukhi text please for this line?

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11 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

Paapiman can  you put up the gurmukhi text please for this line?

ਆਜੁ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਸਾਥ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਰੁਚਿ ਸੌ ਰਤਿ ਕਰਿਯੈ ॥

ਹੋ ਨਾਤਰ ਛਾਡੌ ਟਾਂਗ ਤਰੇ ਅਬਿ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਕਰਿਯੈ ॥੨੮॥

ਟਾਂਗ ਤਰੇ ਸੋ ਜਾਇ ਕੇਲ ਕੈ ਜਾਹਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥

ਬੈਠਿ ਨਿਫੂੰਸਕ ਰਹੈ ਰੈਨਿ ਸਿਗਰੀ ਨ ਬਜਾਵੈ ॥

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To me the above lines are this:

 

(woman saying):

today with me, create friendship and make romance

otherwise you can leave by passing under my legs 28

(Raja saying in response)

Those who pass under the legs are unable to perform intercourse

They pass all night as a eunuch unable to perform.

 

Passing under the legs of someone is equivalent to being their slave, or being worthless , having no status at all. Seeing as this is a Raja, obviously he will be very reluctant to do this, and it seems to me that he is trying to avoid doing this so threatens that anybody who does this loses the power to perform intercourse. This is turn frightens the woman as she will not want to turn the raja into a eunuch for the night as she needs him to perform intercourse.

 

That make any sense?

 

 

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The next line makes no sense from the english translation either.

 

"with my hands i will tear you off"...

 

I think it should translated as

 

"I will hold you here (as a aprisoner) all day and night.

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57 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

The next line makes no sense from the english translation either.

 

"with my hands i will tear you off"...

 

I think it should translated as

 

"I will hold you here (as a aprisoner) all day and night.

Good catch bro.

ਗਹਿ ਆਪਨ ਕਰ ਆਜੁ ਸਗਰ ਤੋ ਕੋ ਨਿਸ ਭੋਰੋ ॥

I will hold you by my hand today for the whole day and night

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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Hmm ok so she basicAlly says do what i require (intercourse) or submit/lower yourself to me and i will leave you alone. In rajniti warfare it was often seen that one powerful emperor would assemble his army at the border of his enemy and threathen  with war to have them give up Their throne, land, wealth etc. If the enemy refused to hand over land, the emperor would often say fine then at least pay annual tribute to me and i will leave again not invading  or taking over your land. The mughals did This with the rajputs, maharaja ranjit singh did it with his raakhi subordinates etc.

I see the same pattern here in her speech

Edited by amardeep

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On 21/08/2017 at 3:05 PM, amardeep said:

Also interesting to read the next to charitars - they are quite short and they show how the Raja despite difficult circumstances manages to subvert the situation so he is once again in power.

 

OK, can we have the next ones @paapiman?

 

On 22/08/2017 at 8:31 PM, amardeep said:

she basicAlly says do what i require (intercourse) or submit/lower yourself to me and i will leave you alone.

 

I think here the move is towards humiliation as wel. He is a King, and to be humiliated like that is a big issue. He is caught between a rock and hard place. He is given the option of losing his dharma or subjecting himself to ridicule.

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(taken from another topic):

On 15/08/2017 at 11:12 PM, amardeep said:

A way to widen the discussion is also to see whether the early Sikh historians considered the Anoop Kaur charitar as factual history or not..

Look at the years involved. In Guru Sahibs time, Anandpur Sahib was an existing town. The text was completed in 1696. The historic vaisakhi was of 1699. Thats a three year difference.

 

In this story there is the mention of a mantar which seems to be telling us it was to invoke the Devi. So it must have been written at least 3 years assuming that the whole text may have taken upto a month to listen to,  re-worded and scribed.  So was it known for at least 3 years prior to Vasiakhi that Guru Sahib was looking for a mantar to invoke the Devi (personally I don't beleive he was himself, but was doing it at the behest of the Brahmans who felt they could do it).

 

Some scholars are of the view that such an incident did take place between Guru Sahib and Anoop Kanwar, and at the moment I am so inclined as well, but not to the extent or detail contained in the charitar, If Guru Nanak could see through the charitar of the Raja of Sri lanka, Guru Sahib would easily have seen through Anoop Kanwar, but maybe felt this was worthy of being the incident to as the basis of a literature masterpeice, designed to to teach and warn Sikhs of interpersonal skills and razorsharp thinking. 

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On 9/10/2017 at 2:49 PM, chatanga1 said:

  So was it known for at least 3 years prior to Vasiakhi that Guru Sahib was looking for a mantar to invoke the Devi (personally I don't beleive he was himself, but was doing it at the behest of the Brahmans who felt they could do it).

Sri Satguru jee (Tenth Master) did invoke Chandi jee, the power of Almighty Waheguru jee, not Mata Durga/Chandi (the female deities), who are millions in numbers. 

It's like saying that Sri Satguru jee worshiped Ram. Ram will refer to the Almighty Waheguru jee here, not Sri Ram Chander jee (the king of Ayodhya).

It is so simple to understand, but some people do not seem to get it.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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