chatanga1 Posted April 4, 2018 Report Share Posted April 4, 2018 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted April 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2018 Dohra Then the King again said to the Minister : Tell me another story of a clever character (1) Chaupai There was a wife of a trader She was wealthy with a big house She fell in love with a man And invited him to her house with the intention of enjoying him (2) Dohra Maan Manjiri was the wife of the trader and she had a very beautiful body She fell greatly in love with a learned (Pandit) man (3) Chaupai When the woman spoke these words "Come into my arms my beloved" He refused her advances He took the name of "Ram" and began to leave that place (4) Dohra Taking the name of God he got up and was going to leave Getting up in anger the woman cried "thief!! (5) Hearng the cries of thief, people came running And he was sent to prison (6) The woman had him beaten despite his cries With wealth and power the holy man was sent to the abode of death (7) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted April 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2018 Summary: A woman sees a handsome man and wishes him to embrace her. He is a holy man and refuses. She then claims he is a thief and has him thrown into jail. Because of her standing in society and wealth, everyone is on her side. Again an innocent man is killed. Even though the victim is God-fearing he has no protection against the social standing of the woman. This is bang on what happens with the original story. This was the theme with the last charitar also. Charitar 30 was how easy it was for a woman to decieve her husband no matter the setting. Charitar 31 showed how cheap life was in the story Charitar 32 shows the same as 31. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 9, 2018 Report Share Posted April 9, 2018 On 4/4/2018 at 1:27 PM, chatanga1 said: Dohra Then the King again said to the Minister : Tell me another story of a clever character (1) Chaupai There was a wife of a trader She was wealthy with a big house She fell in love with a man And invited him to her house with the intention of enjoying him (2) Dohra Maan Manjiri was the wife of the trader and she had a very beautiful body She fell greatly in love with a learned (Pandit) man (3) Chaupai When the woman spoke these words "Come into my arms my beloved" He refused her advances He took the name of "Ram" and began to leave that place (4) Dohra Taking the name of God he got up and was going to leave Getting up in anger the woman cried "thief!! (5) Hearng the cries of thief, people came running And he was sent to prison (6) The woman had him beaten despite his cries With wealth and power the holy man was sent to the abode of death (7) Bro, why are you spending time on translating the Charitars? Don't you think we should spend more time on analyzing them? Translations are already available. We can look into specific verses, where any doubt arises on the accuracy of the translation. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted April 9, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2018 36 minutes ago, paapiman said: Bro, why are you spending time on translating the Charitars? I didn't have any intentions to, but because these are very small ones, with only about 15 verses in, I thought I would give it a go. Plus it really helps with language skills when you have to look up certain words and decipher the context in which they are bing used. 36 minutes ago, paapiman said: Don't you think we should spend more time on analyzing them? Definitely but i felt that our definitions were too largely based on poor translations. I don't want to fall into the same trap that our ex-resident feminist fell into. 36 minutes ago, paapiman said: Translations are already available Bro, you know that the only english translation that we have by bindra is weak. Share more of Niddar Singhs with us. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 24, 2018 Report Share Posted April 24, 2018 On 4/4/2018 at 1:27 PM, chatanga1 said: Chaupai There was a wife of a trader She was wealthy with a big house She fell in love with a man And invited him to her house with the intention of enjoying him (2) Warning: Sexually explicit material below. Daas will kindly request sangat, below the age of 25 or people who are greatly affected by Lust, to stay away from this discussion. Niddar has translated the last line as: To have sex with him, she had him abducted and brought to her home. The verse is below: ਭੋਗ ਕਾਜ ਗਹਿ ਗ੍ਰੇਹ ਮੰਗਾਯੋ ॥੨॥ Niddar might be right as the word ਗਹਿ is a noun which means ਗਰਿਫ਼ਤ (according to Mahan Kosh). ਗਰਿਫ਼ਤਾਰ means to arrest. Therefore, this Charitar might be a case of abduction of an innocent person. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 24, 2018 Report Share Posted April 24, 2018 On 4/4/2018 at 1:27 PM, chatanga1 said: Dohra Maan Manjiri was the wife of the trader and she had a very beautiful body She fell greatly in love with a learned (Pandit) man (3) ਮਾਨ ਮੰਜਰੀ means a "proud pearl". Also, let's focus on the the second verse in the Dohra above. ਬਿਦ੍ਯਾਨਿਧਿ ਇਕ ਬਾਲ ਸੌ ਅਧਿਕ ਬਢਾਯੋ ਨੇਹ ॥੩॥ The word used is ਬਾਲ, which has many meanings. Some are mentioned below: Girl Boy Woman Agyani Childish person Is there anything in the Charitar, which can clarify the contextual meaning of the word ਬਾਲ? @amardeep Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 24, 2018 Report Share Posted April 24, 2018 On 4/4/2018 at 1:27 PM, chatanga1 said: Chaupai When the woman spoke these words "Come into my arms my beloved" He refused her advances He took the name of "Ram" and began to leave that place (4) Warning: Sexually explicit material below. Daas will kindly request sangat, below the age of 25 or people who are greatly affected by Lust, to stay away from this discussion. According to Bindra, this person had sex with the woman. He indulged in sex with the woman but, then, recollected the Godly Name.(4) According to Niddar and Gyani Ishar Singh jee, he refused. Multiple interpretations are possible because of the two Paaths of the verse below: ਤਿਨ ਵਾ ਤ੍ਰਿਯ ਸੌ ਭੋਗ ਨ ਕਰਿਯੋ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਵਾ ਤ੍ਰਿਯ ਸੌ ਭੋਗਨ ਕਰਿਯੋ ॥ So, it is possible that he had sex with her and then realized his folly. After that, he tried to sneak away, but the lady taught him a good lesson. What do you say? @amardeep - Any insights? Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 24, 2018 Report Share Posted April 24, 2018 26 minutes ago, paapiman said: ਮਾਨ ਮੰਜਰੀ means a "proud pearl". Also, let's focus on the the second verse in the Dohra above. ਬਿਦ੍ਯਾਨਿਧਿ ਇਕ ਬਾਲ ਸੌ ਅਧਿਕ ਬਢਾਯੋ ਨੇਹ ॥੩॥ The word used in ਬਾਲ, which has many meanings. Some are mentioned below: Girl Boy Woman Agyani Childish person Is there anything in the Charitar which can clarify the contextual meaning of the word ਬਾਲ? @amardeep Bhul chuk maaf Warning: Sexually explicit material below. Daas will kindly request sangat, below the age of 25 or people who are greatly affected by Lust, to stay away from this discussion. @chatanga1 @amardeep Later in the Charitar, it mentions the following verse: ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਲੈ ਉਠਿ ਚਲਾ ਜਾਤ ਨਿਹਾਰਾ ਨਾਰਿ ॥ So the person was a male. But, he could have been a teenage boy. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted April 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 On 4/24/2018 at 11:32 AM, paapiman said: Niddar might be right as the word ਗਹਿ is a noun which means ਗਰਿਫ਼ਤ (according to Mahan Kosh). ਗਰਿਫ਼ਤਾਰ means to arrest. ਗਹਿ also means to take hold of someone, or control someone. I think the end word doesn't mean he was forced though. " ਮੰਗਾਯੋ " means to be called for. The whole sentence could also mean : ਭੋਗ ਕਾਜ ਗਹਿ ਗ੍ਰੇਹ ਮੰਗਾਯੋ ॥੨॥ For the purpose of merryment, he was invited to her home. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted April 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 On 4/24/2018 at 12:06 PM, paapiman said: According to Bhindra, this person had sex with the woman. He indulged in sex with the woman but, then, recollected the Godly Name.(4) According to Niddar and Gyani Ishar Singh jee, he refused. Multiple interpretations are possible because of the two Paaths of the verse below: I can't see that the holy man did here. there is nothing in the text to infer that he did. Also who is Gyani Ishar Singh? Nara? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 8 minutes ago, chatanga1 said: I can't see that the holy man did here. there is nothing in the text to infer that he did. Also who is Gyani Ishar Singh? Nara? The one who wrote a teeka of Sri Dasam Granth sahib jee. The link was posted by you. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted April 29, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2018 On 4/24/2018 at 11:32 AM, paapiman said: Niddar has translated the last line as: To have sex with him, she had him abducted and brought to her home. The verse is below: ਭੋਗ ਕਾਜ ਗਹਿ ਗ੍ਰੇਹ ਮੰਗਾਯੋ ॥੨॥ Niddar might be right as the word ਗਹਿ is a noun which means ਗਰਿਫ਼ਤ (according to Mahan Kosh). ਗਰਿਫ਼ਤਾਰ means to arrest. Therefore, this Charitar might be a case of abduction of an innocent person. If we look at an example of in Sri Ramavatar we have this line: ਪਾਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋਊ ਆਾਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀ ਆਨਯੋ ॥ Since I held your feet, I do not bring anyone else under my sight . ਗਹੇ can mean held, gripped, caught etc. So this line the "hold" is by kaam of the woman. ਭੋਗ ਕਾਜ ਗਹਿ ਗ੍ਰੇਹ ਮੰਗਾਯੋ ॥੨॥ This to me means, Gripped by the act of bhog, he was invited to her home. Niddar Singhs translation here doesn't fit for me. On 4/25/2018 at 5:38 PM, paapiman said: The one who wrote a teeka of Sri Dasam Granth sahib jee. The link was posted by you. Oh yes. Silly me. This is what Gyani Ishar Singh has translated it as: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted April 29, 2018 Report Share Posted April 29, 2018 1 hour ago, chatanga1 said: ਗਹੇ can mean held, gripped, caught etc. ਭੋਗ ਕਾਜ ਗਹਿ ਗ੍ਰੇਹ ਮੰਗਾਯੋ ॥੨॥ What is the difference between ਗਹੇ and ਗਹਿ from the perspective of grammar? @BhagatSingh - Can you please help? Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted April 30, 2018 Report Share Posted April 30, 2018 12 hours ago, paapiman said: What is the difference between ਗਹੇ and ਗਹਿ from the perspective of grammar? @BhagatSingh - Can you please help? It's the same word (spelled in different ways but pronounced the same way). Like ਘਰਿ, ਘਰੇ - in/of the house. ਗਹੇ , ਗਹਿ - mean hold. I haven't followed the discussion so I am not sure if the context changes the meaning in any way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 1, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2018 On 4/29/2018 at 1:26 PM, paapiman said: What is the difference between ਗਹੇ and ਗਹਿ from the perspective of grammar? Don't know about grammar but Mahan Kosh gives both of them as the same meaning. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 2, 2018 Report Share Posted May 2, 2018 On 4/29/2018 at 6:47 AM, chatanga1 said: Niddar Singhs translation here doesn't fit for me. If Bidhyanidh was a teenage boy (as the word used in the Charitar is ਬਾਲ), then kidnapping makes sense. Also, a Agyani (Simpleton) as a translation for ਬਾਲ makes more sense. It would be relatively easy to kidnap a Simpleton and then later have him killed. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2018 On 5/2/2018 at 10:19 PM, paapiman said: If Bidhyanidh was a teenage boy (as the word used in the Charitar is ਬਾਲ), then kidnapping makes sense. Bidhiyanidh is not his name. Bidhia - knowledge Nidh - treasure 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 5, 2018 Report Share Posted May 5, 2018 3 hours ago, chatanga1 said: Bidhiyanidh is not his name. Bidhia - knowledge Nidh - treasure Names have meanings. Like Amardeep means "Everlasting Lamp". Bidhyanidh can refer to a learned man (Pandit), but the below translation seems to be fine too. ਬਿਦ੍ਯਾਨਿਧਿ ਇਕ ਬਾਲ ਸੌ ਅਧਿਕ ਬਢਾਯੋ ਨੇਹ ॥੩॥ There was a boy, named Bidyanidh, with whom she increased her love. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2018 On 5/5/2018 at 8:18 PM, paapiman said: Names have meanings. Like Amardeep means "Everlasting Lamp". Bidhyanidh can refer to a learned man (Pandit), but the below translation seems to be fine too. ਬਿਦ੍ਯਾਨਿਧਿ ਇਕ ਬਾਲ ਸੌ ਅਧਿਕ ਬਢਾਯੋ ਨੇਹ ॥੩॥ I think the translation you have posted above is ok but it still seems to me to say this line means "She fell greatly in love with a learned (Pandit) man (3)." What do you think about Nara's translation? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 7, 2018 Report Share Posted May 7, 2018 4 hours ago, chatanga1 said: What do you think about Nara's translation? Maybe this Charitar has multiple interpretations. Case 1 - A Pandit invited by the rich lady to her house Case 2 - Abduction of a simpleton by the rich lady Both cases can be related back to the base tale. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 7, 2018 Report Share Posted May 7, 2018 On 4/25/2018 at 12:29 PM, chatanga1 said: I can't see that the holy man did here. there is nothing in the text to infer that he did. Warning: Sexually explicit material below. Daas will kindly request sangat, below the age of 25 or people who are greatly affected by Lust, to stay away from this discussion. The below verse (a different Paath) would indicate that he did indeed have sex with the lady. ਤਿਨ ਵਾ ਤ੍ਰਿਯ ਸੌ ਭੋਗਨ ਕਰਿਯੋ ॥ Later, he realized his mistake and decided to leave. There are times when humans realize their blunder, after they have committed a sin. Can the next line be possibly translated as below? ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਲੈ ਉਠਿ ਚਲਾ ਜਾਤ ਨਿਹਾਰਾ ਨਾਰਿ ॥ He took the name of Ram Naam and decided to leave after enjoying with the lady. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 7, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2018 19 hours ago, paapiman said: The below verse (a different Paath) would indicate that he did indeed have sex with the lady. ਤਿਨ ਵਾ ਤ੍ਰਿਯ ਸੌ ਭੋਗਨ ਕਰਿਯੋ ॥ It doesn't make sense to me to read it as "ਭੋਗਨ" but the text I posted reads as "ਭੋਗ ਨ ਕਰਿਯੋ" meaning he did not accept her overtures. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.