Jonny101

That's not true. Sikhs take religious conversion very seriously. During the closing decades of the 19th century, Christian missionaries were trying to convert Sikhs into Christianity. This alarmed Sikhs at the time so much that it caused the Singh Sabha movement which was a movement of religious revival amongst the Sikhs. The reason why Sikhs take conversion to Islam seriously is because of the violent legacy of Islam in Punjab. Two of our Gurus were executed by Muslims for not converting to Islam(One of the Guru Jee was beheaded and the other Guru Jee was made to sit on a red hot plate). The entire family of Guru Gobind Singh Jee was martyred by Muslims. The two younger sons of Guru Gobind Singh Jee aged 9 and 6 were given a choice to convert to Islam or death. Those two brave children chose to die as Sikhs than live as Muslims. After them the 1700s saw a life and death struggle for the Sikh nation. Sikhs faced numerous genocides at the hands of Muslims. Captured Sikhs were often given a choice to convert to Islam and save their life or die, nearly all Sikhs became Shaheed for Sikhi. The Darbar Sahib(Golden Temple) was attacked many times, once it was completely destroyed(blown apart) by the Muslims. Sikhs during those times could have lived a comfortable life by simply converting to Islam as you did but worshiping Vaheguru as Sikhs was far more important for them. The persecution of Sikhs at the hands of Muslims was so severe that at one point of our history there were only 2000 Sikh left. It is with great struggle and blessings of Guru Jee that Sikhs still managed to come out on top and rule over Punjab. So you need to understand the impact Islam has had on the Sikhs before trying to wonder why Sikhs make such a issue if a Sikh converts to Islam.

Hi Ali, are you KDeol's boyfriend? from my experience nearly all the girls convert when they are in a relationship with a Muslim because they feel an emotional obligation to make their BF happy. A friend of mine knows a girl who had a Pakistani BF. He would try his best to pressure her to convert. Even though that girl was not religious but she left him because she did not want to put khay(shame) on her parents head. I know Sikhs who have been or are in relationships with Muslim girls, but the Sikh boys never try to convert the Muslim girls to Sikhi.

Jathadar, whether a panth dokhi who kills Sikhs and does beadbi of Guru Jee is a Hindu, Muslim or a Sikh it doesn't matter in the eyes of a Panth Dardhi Singh. A Muslim is not anymore deserving of a punishment than a Hindu or Sikh for the same crime.

Gen Sinha did not say it should have happened, but only that the conflict could have been resolve with other means. Furthur more, he exposes the lies of the Indian government that OBS was a last resort. He did not want to carry out this operation because of which he was not given promotion. Indira Gandhi only used yes men for this operation. The fact that the Indian army and government did not allow media transparency is only because they have something to hide. Had the Indian public been exposed first hand to what really happened, no one would have supported OBS. That's what happened in the Anti Sikh riots. The government could not have a media black out as they did for OBS, and to this day 99% of Hindus who saw first hand everything because of media transparency are against the congress role in killing Sikhs.

Nothing wrong with having a difference of opinion. I don't think anyone here said there is. But speaking from historical point of view, nothing wrong with doing Sodha of a killer of Sikhs or one who does beadbi of Guru Maharaj. Sikhs only use Shastars when all other means have failed. After 1978 when the Indian justice system failed to provide justice to the Sikhs, Singhs were left with no option but to take matters into their own hands.

The impression I am getting from your posts the last few days is that, if it's a Muslim who is a Panth Dokhi, then he should be done Sodha of but if the Dusht is a Hindu or Sikh then it's perfectly fine and dandy.

kdeol Jee, I am not here to judge you. can you explain to me why you converted to Islam? what inspired you for making such a move? What in your opinion does Islam offer than Sikhi does not?

That's exactly why the Indian government enforced media black out from Punjab. Unlike other conflicts worldwide, atleast the media is allowed to observe the event and report it. But operation blue star was such an event that the government had prevented both national and international media from observing the event as it took place. Brahma Chellany was one of the few reporters who hid himself and reported the death and destruction caused by the Indian army and for that he was charged with waging war against India. When the governments does a media black out, one must question their government 'WHY?' unfortunately no one in India did that, to this day they are just parroting the Indian government's version of the conflict. Brave Hindus like Swami Subramanian, Gen Sinha, Darshi were brave enough to tell the truth. For that they have my respect

Let's not turn this into Amritdhari vs Mona issue. Amritdharis are not the only one's who do Sodha of Dushts. Half the great Sodha's done of Panth Dokhis were done by Mona Sikhs. Udham Singh(of Jillianwala bagh), Sukha-Jinda, Dilawar Singh Babbar(who killed Beanta), the two mona Sikhs who killed Poohla in jail. When someone inflicts death of Sikhs or does beadbi of Guru Maharaj, all Sikhs whether they are Amritdhari or Mona will feel the same amount of anger.

I think it's pretty easy for us to judge someone sitting on our armchairs. Sikhs are not "mafia" but Sikhs are also not cowardly. If someone is going to kill Sikhs in cold blood and do beadbi of Guru Jee, and that country's justice system also fails to implement the law because they are too busy protecting killers of Sikhs, then I can't blame my Sikh brothers who follow Guru Gobind Singh Jee's soch of Chu Kar Hama Heelte Dar Guzasht, Halal Ast Burdan Ba Shamshir Dast Sikhs have a long history of doing Sodha of Dushts and Panth Dokhis. You seem to like the Nihangs alot, it's interesting because when Dayananad Saraswati first came to Punjab and started doing his koor parchar Nihangs wanted to do Sodha of him. There was even an incident of when Dayanand doing one of his lectures and said something against Guru Nanak Dev Jee. A Nihang who was present there was about to decapitate him right there and then, but other Sikhs saved Dayanand. During the misl period nearly all the Sikhs were Nihangs and countless Panth Dokhis like Massa Rangar were hacked to death by some brave Singh. To this day Sikhs whether they are Udham Singh, Bhai Ranjit Singh, Satwant SIngh Beant Singh, Sukha Jinda or the two Mona Sikhs veers who did sodha of Poola in Jail are just following the examples set by those puraatan Nihangs.

1. the politicians of congress party, Arya Samaj leadership and Narakdharis are the one who wanted him eliminated because his parchar exposed their lies and was awakening the Sikh nation. 2. Read the article I posted

Sant Bhindranwale Did Nothing Wrong By Defending The Golden Temple General S. K. Sinha (Retd.), GOC-in-C of the Western Command, Spokesman Weekly, July 16,1984 While fighting against army hordes from June 5 to 7 last, Sikhs inside the Golden Temple Complex at Amritsar were exercising their legitimate right of self defence. This conclusion is based on the facts revealed and assessment made by Lieutenant General S. K. Sinha (Retd.), when he was GOC-in-C of the Western Command. "The Army action was not the 'last resort' as Prime Minister Indira Gandhi would have us believe, decided upon toward May-end (1984). It had been in her mind for more than 18 months". Said the General that when he was GOC-in-C of Western Command, he got a call around 10pm, from 'someone in Delhi' that a decision had been taken at the highest level that the army should undertake the arrest of Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale. Nothing was heard after the General told the caller that in matters like this he would like to hear from either the Chief of Army Staff or the Defence Minister. This was toward 1981 end when Darbara Singh was Chief Minister i.e. nearly 30 months before the Army actually struck at Arnritsar. "Again, when Sant Bhindranwale went into Mehta Chowk" adds General Sinha, "there was a request to the Army to supply Armoured Personnel Carriers (APC) to the police to facilitate his arrest." This was long before the Akalis launched their morcha in August 1982. Shortly after the morcha, the Army began rehearsals of a commando raid near Chakrata Cantonment in the Doon Valley, where a complete replica of the Golden Temple complex had been built. "Another training involving Aviation Research Centre Commandos, was given in the Sarsawa area and Yamuna bed in helicopters converted into gunships. This plan, earmarked for implementation first in August last year (1983) and then in April this (1984) year, was given up as it had leaked out to the Sikh militants." "In view of these military preparations, if Sant Bhindranwale and his men decided to defend the Golden Temple with all their might and means, no one can, and should, blame them." "You are duty-bound to do your all when you know someone is going to raid your house. In this case, the house was the holiest Sikh Shrine in the world." "All you have to do is to match the adversary's weapons with your own weapons of equal, if not more, fire power. This is an acknowledged rule of combat." "Mrs. Gandhi contends that arms were being collected by Sant Bhindranwale for the last one year. But this was much after she herself had drawn up plans for Army action against the Golden Temple and other gurdwaras." "In December, last year (1983) two trenches were dug by Sant's men in front of Teja Singh Samundari Hall within the holy complex but he was persuaded to fill them up." "This proves that till then no responsible Akali leader was prepared for an armed showdown with the Government." Fortification of the complex, according to SGPC Secretary Bhan Singh, started from February 17 this year (1984). And that also after CRPF and BSF units had resorted to unprovoked firing and had begun converting the buildings on the periphery of the temple into bunkers and fortresses. This action of the Sikhs was a just response to the provocation provided by Government's para military forces. Again, toward May end this year, CRPF and BSF units deliberately fired 10,000 bullets per day on the temple area for more than a week in order to find out from the return firing, as has been officially admitted now, where the terrorist fortifications were located and what kind of equipment they had. This was given a deliberate design to escalate the conflict. No Sikh worth his salt could allow easy entry into the Golden Temple area to any armed force. It is his sacred duty to smash the enemy's teeth and sacrifice his life while fighting. This is what Sant Bhindranwale and his men did. In the best tradition of Sikh warriors, they fought to the last bullet and their last breath. For the same reason, hundreds of men, women and children, who had come to the Golden Temple as pilgrims, decided to lay down their lives when they saw the army invading the holy area. Before this open clash of arms, there were hardly five per cent Sikhs who supported Sant Bhindranwale's actions or utterances. But now the Government has made him a hero in the Sikhs' eyes. Now everyone, including his previous detractors, hail him as a martyr of the same genre as Baba Deep Singh who had fought against Ahmed Shah Abdali's marauders. Sant Bhindranwale's previous acts of commission and omission stand washed white by his making the supreme sacrifice of life for a noble cause. The present Government shall live to rue the day of June 5, 1984.

to prepare for the attack by the Indian Army.

Very true. This is one of many things that were praiseworthy of Sant Jee. He never forced his view on the Panth. He always wanted Ekta of the panth more than anything else because he knew that if all five fingers are curled together only then it will make a strong fist. If we are united, then we can achieve so much more. The whole panth was united during the Dharm Yudh Morcha. This in turn gave sleepless nights and diarrhea to the Arya Samajis, Narakdharis and the congress who spent no time in creating the 3rd agency and employing the Mahasha hindu press of Punjab to create an atmosphere of hate and fear among the Hindus and Sikhs. And nothing wrong with doing Sodha of Panth Dokhis who kill Sikhs. Sikhs have had a very long history of doing Sodha of such Dushts

If you cannot even behave like a mature person on a forum and are here with purpose of only spreading your anti Sikh propaganda under the garb of "expressing your opinion" then you are ruining the atmosphere of his forum. Admins should take note of this rogue. He is just using this forum to spread his poisonous anti Sikh propaganda. This is a site for people to learn about Sikhi and this rogue is clearly not here to learn. All he is doing is lying about historical Sikh figures, distorting Sikh history and spreading much hate.

What a history chor. This chor has been proven false on the Baba Banda Singh Bahadur issue yet he is still repeating his propaganda here. Admins should give him a warning to not distort Sikh history on purpose. Marathas with the HELP of their allies Adina Begh the Mughal and brave Sikhs of Punjab came to the indus, but 2 years later when Afghans came under Abdali he ran away without even putting up a fight. Again I have previously given him a history lesson on this hoping that maybe he did not know, but it is clear he is here just to spread his anti Sikh propaganda.

July and told him that the Vedic Brahmin Religion and mantras have no power and Ganga Bhatt was a idiot who looted him like a fox and thief. He told him that all his loss was due to following of wrong religion, mantras, system of coronation. Shivaji Maharaj totally agreed with him and throw away Janeu and second coronation was carried out on 24 th Sepember, 1674 at the hands of Hindu Dharma System ( tantra) Guru Nischchal Puri Goswami from Bengal a site of hidden Buddhist Religion and his assistant Malla i.e. Naga Chela. http://nativeraut.blogspot.ca/2011/11/shivaji-maharaj-left-brahmin-religion.html

Doesn't sound harsh to me. The entire Sikh nation is in total agreement about the status of Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale. He didn't kill the Narak-Dhari fake Guru. It was Bhai Ranjit Singh Jee in collaboration with Babbar Khalsa. But Hindu media which has nothing solid against Sant Jee tried to pin every single murder, robbery, slip on the banana on their favourite boogeymen Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale. That NARAK-DHARI Baba is the one who lit the fire which burnt Punjab for the next 15 years.

Why do Nindya of any prophet. Guru Gobind Singh Jee mentions in Sri Dasam Granth that Vaheguru sent Avtars like Krishna and Prophets like Mohammad to spread the faith of God. But they faltered and started their own cults. But we need to focus on our own Jeevans than do Nindya of Avtars and Prophets. They are still much better than us, we are mere insects compared to them. Gure Jee writes the greatness of Naam Simran in the Sunye Pauris of Japji Sahib. The Avastha one gets when doing Naam Simran can elevate you to great heights even surpassing the Avtars and Prophets. The greatest Aatmic Kazanaas are available in the house of Guru Nanak Dev Jee.

Admins, please take action against this person. He is not even a Sikh, yet why is he allowed to use terms like "neo Sikh" or "Khaliban". This should not be tolerated. I could also use such demeaning terms for the Hindus but I will refrain from doing so as I know not all Hindus are like this.

Oye History Chora, Just because a person is born a Hindu does not mean he remains a Hindu for the rest of his life. Baba Jee was born a Hindu but after meeting Guru Gobind SIngh Jee, he became a Sikh and Amritdhari. I have already given you names from Hindu, Muslim, Sikh and Christian historians besides also puraatan sources which clearly say Baba Banda Singh Bahadur took Amrit from Guru Gobind SIngh Jee. You on the other hand have shown me absolutely NO reference to back up your claim. The first and only person to claim Baba Jee never took Amrit was a Fanatic Arya Samaji Parma Nand who wrote this lie in his book Banda Bairagi in 1925. And he made this claim without any reference. The fact that you are still trying to carry on this claim even after it has been proven false from a historian point of view just proves you are not here as a truth seeker but just here to spread your propaganda. I request the admins to take action against this person. Sukhmani Sahib has a whole Ashtpadi about how big it is a paap of doing Nindya of a Sant. This man is openly doing Nindya of Sant Jarnail Singh bhindranwale by calling him a "terrorist". Or atleast he could be put under quality control if he still persists in doing Sant Kee Ninda. He needs to learn how to behave on a Sikh forum. He should not take advantage of our Sharaafat and be allowed to spread his propaganda here.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue with you. I personally don't have anything against any community. I only posted here because of two Hindutva fanatics Ekomkar and his friend Sher(di khal vich Gidhar) who started posting in favour of operation bluestar and started to do blatant chori of our history. I've had dialogues with Hindus in the past, but most of them were fair minded who were mature enough to recognize state propaganda from truth once they were shown the facts. But these two are not here for a serious dialogue but just here to spread their anti Sikh propaganda. So I gave it back to them and look how fast "ekomkar" guy revealed his Anti Sikh views here.

The first point I made was that all over India, where ever the Hindus were the majority they were ruled by Muslims. But in defense of the Hindus I also mentioned that where ever they were the majority atleast they also had some resistance movements and armies. But no where did the Hindus fight back where they became the minority. Case in point: the Hindus of Punjab who were the minority by a slim margin but were ruled by the Muslims so thoroughly that they never once rose up in rebellion. But you in trying to make a defensive point in favour of the Hindus unwittingly said they were the 70% majority which actually reflects even worse on the Hindu Punjabis than if they were the minority because that suggests that they were even bigger cowards for not rising up once in rebellion despite being a such a huge majority. Thankfully, I know for a fact that your 70% estimate is historically inaccurate. The Sikhs come from both Hindus and Muslim population of Punjab who saw the light of Sikhi and embraced it. And no they were not foolish for obeying Khalsa Raaj because Khalsa Raaj was just and fair. But they were cowardly for obeying Islamic Raaj because Islamic Raaj was oppressive to the non Muslims. Sikhi teaches us that doing Zulm on others is wrong but tolerating Zulm is even worse which is why such a small minority Sikh population did not tolerate the oppression of Islamic Raaj.

70% hindu population? historically that's inaccurate. Population west of Sutlej was majority Muslim, followed by Hindus and lastly the Sikhs. But if 70% is the number, then that reflects even worse on the Hindu Punjabi. That means before the Sikhs took over, the 70% Hindu majority population was being ruled over by the Muslims, and yet not a single Hindu resistance movement? Dayum! that's sad

Common, Sikhs living in Pak and Afghanistan are only in the few thousands. What tony jee meant is at least a community being 10% of the over all population. Sikhs during the misl period were about 5% of the population of Punjab, Muslims were the majority followed closely by the Hindus. Yet Sikhs ruled the state. This is unprecedented. Hindus living under Islamic rule where Hindus were the vast majority of the population. While Hindus all over India(with the exception of the Punjabi Hindus) did put up some resistance and have their own armies, but only in the case where they were the majority. Sikhs on the other hand were not a majority in any district of Punjab. Facing numerous genocides at the hands of the Muslim majority still coming on top and achieving victory. This was all Guru Jee's blessing for his Khalsa.