CdnSikhGirl

Absence of Proof is NOT proof of absence....

I know in Gurbani she doesn't refer to female gender human but of soul bride and that God is only true male. I was echoing what some members on here had posted before to justify their positions. Not that I believed it... But the above questions did frustrate me (u can even see how chatanga jumped in). As for the shabad mentioning men acting according to women's will being impure and filthy yes one member did try to apply that to all women and all men. But in context it's not speaking about men and women in general. Actually it's not even speaking about the acts themselves (which seems to be reference to prostitution... A minority) ... And then it says even then ALL happens according to Gods will anyway so it's all Gods play and only those who's grace is given to will escape it. It's not saying men can't ever consult women. However the frustration is that some Singhs think it does and try to push that agenda.

It's ok those were the questions I had. If u want to lock the thread now it's ok. And thanks again.

And that first tuk I posted here is the full shabad and its speaking of serving the Guru... This can be seen as close to specific seva as we might find in Gurbani no? Early on it says day and night serve at the Gurus feet and it tells us there is no other than the Lord so by servin all and seeing all equally we are actually seeing the Lord because really there is no other. I think this can be applied to seva as Panj pyaras... ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ सोरठि महला १ ॥ Soraṯẖ mėhlā 1. Sorat'h, First Mehl: ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ਸਿਰਿ ਲੇਖੁ ਧੁਰਾਹੂ ਬਿਨੁ ਲੇਖੈ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥ सरब जीआ सिरि लेखु धुराहू बिनु लेखै नही कोई जीउ ॥ Sarab jī▫ā sir lekẖ ḏẖurāhū bin lekẖai nahī ko▫ī jī▫o. Destiny, pre-ordained by the Lord, looms over the heads of all beings; no one is without this pre-ordained destiny. ਆਪਿ ਅਲੇਖੁ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਚਲਾਏ ਸੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥ आपि अलेखु कुदरति करि देखै हुकमि चलाए सोई जीउ ॥१॥ Āp alekẖ kuḏraṯ kar ḏekẖai hukam cẖalā▫e so▫ī jī▫o. ||1|| Only He Himself is beyond destiny; creating the creation by His creative power, He beholds it, and causes His Command to be followed. ||1|| ਮਨ ਰੇ ਰਾਮ ਜਪਹੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਈ ॥ मन रे राम जपहु सुखु होई ॥ Man re rām japahu sukẖ ho▫ī. O mind, chant the Name of the Lord, and be at peace. ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਸਰੇਵਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਦਾਤਾ ਭੁਗਤਾ ਸੋਈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ अहिनिसि गुर के चरन सरेवहु हरि दाता भुगता सोई ॥ रहाउ ॥ Ahinis gur ke cẖaran sarevhu har ḏāṯā bẖugṯā so▫ī. Rahā▫o. Day and night, serve at the Guru's feet; the Lord is the Giver, and the Enjoyer. ||Pause|| ਜੋ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਕੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥ जो अंतरि सो बाहरि देखहु अवरु न दूजा कोई जीउ ॥ Jo anṯar so bāhar ḏekẖhu avar na ḏūjā ko▫ī jī▫o. He is within - see Him outside as well; there is no one, other than Him. ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥ गुरमुखि एक द्रिसटि करि देखहु घटि घटि जोति समोई जीउ ॥२॥ Gurmukẖ ek ḏarisat kar ḏekẖhu gẖat gẖat joṯ samo▫ī jī▫o. ||2|| As Gurmukh, look upon all with the single eye of equality; in each and every heart, the Divine Light is contained. ||2|| ਚਲਤੌ ਠਾਕਿ ਰਖਹੁ ਘਰਿ ਅਪਨੈ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਇਹ ਮਤਿ ਹੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥ चलतौ ठाकि रखहु घरि अपनै गुर मिलिऐ इह मति होई जीउ ॥ Cẖalṯou ṯẖāk rakẖahu gẖar apnai gur mili▫ai ih maṯ ho▫ī jī▫o. Restrain your fickle mind, and keep it steady within its own home; meeting the Guru, this understanding is obtained. ਦੇਖਿ ਅਦ੍ਰਿਸਟੁ ਰਹਉ ਬਿਸਮਾਦੀ ਦੁਖੁ ਬਿਸਰੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥ देखि अद्रिसटु रहउ बिसमादी दुखु बिसरै सुखु होई जीउ ॥३॥ Ḏekẖ aḏrist raha▫o bismāḏī ḏukẖ bisrai sukẖ ho▫ī jī▫o. ||3|| Seeing the unseen Lord, you shall be amazed and delighted; forgetting your pain, you shall be at peace. ||3|| ਪੀਵਹੁ ਅਪਿਉ ਪਰਮ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਹੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥ पीवहु अपिउ परम सुखु पाईऐ निज घरि वासा होई जीउ ॥ Pīvhu api▫o param sukẖ pā▫ī▫ai nij gẖar vāsā ho▫ī jī▫o. Drinking in the ambrosial nectar, you shall attain the highest bliss, and dwell within the home of your own self. ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਭਵ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਗਾਈਐ ਪੁਨਰਪਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥ जनम मरण भव भंजनु गाईऐ पुनरपि जनमु न होई जीउ ॥४॥ Janam maraṇ bẖav bẖanjan gā▫ī▫ai punrap janam na ho▫ī jī▫o. ||4|| So sing the Praises of the Lord, the Destroyer of the fear of birth and death, and you shall not be reincarnated again. ||4|| ਤਤੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਬਾਈ ਸੋਹੰ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥ ततु निरंजनु जोति सबाई सोहं भेदु न कोई जीउ ॥ Ŧaṯ niranjan joṯ sabā▫ī sohaʼn bẖeḏ na ko▫ī jī▫o. The essence, the immaculate Lord, the Light of all - I am He and He is me - there is no difference between us. ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਸੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥੧੧॥ अपर्मपर पारब्रहमु परमेसरु नानक गुरु मिलिआ सोई जीउ ॥५॥११॥ Aprampar pārbarahm parmesar Nānak gur mili▫ā so▫ī jī▫o. ||5||11|| The Infinite Transcendent Lord, the Supreme Lord God - Nanak has met with Him, the Guru. ||5||11||

You say there is no scriptural evidence to allow women maybe not about Panj pyaras directly but we can see how the Gurus thought about equality in general. "As Gurmukh look upon all with a single eye of equality for in each and every heart the divine light is contained" Now that IS in scripture as are many other similar passages... if you read the above and yet pass over a high avastha female for seva in panj pyaras, simply because she is not male are you really upholding the above??? To see the divine light in all? To see all (not just males) with single eye of equality? So even though scripture doesn't speak about specific seva (such as Panj pyaras) it does answer question of how we should treat everyone in any situation.m in general. And that is with single eye of equality. I think it very much does pertain! And that's only one example from Gurbani as that same message appears many many times in different shabads. Page 93, Line 18 ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਸਮ ਦਲ ਸਮਝਾਵੈ ਕੋਊ ||੩|| Raviḏās sam ḏal samjẖāvai ko▫ū. ||3|| O Ravi Daas, one who understands that the Lord is equally in all, is very rare. ||3|| Page 648, Line 5 ਗੁਰ ਸਿਖਾ ਇਕੋ ਪਿਆਰੁ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਤਾ ਪੁਤਾ ਭਾਈਆ ॥ Gur sikẖā iko pi▫ār gur miṯā puṯā bẖā▫ī▫ā. The Guru loves all of His GurSikhs equally well, like friends, children and siblings. Page 1302, Line 2 ਊਚ ਨੀਚ ਸਭ ਪੇਖਿ ਸਮਾਨੋ ਮੁਖਿ ਬਕਨੋ ਮਨਿ ਮਾਨ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Ūcẖ nīcẖ sabẖ pekẖ samāno mukẖ bakno man mān. ||1|| rahā▫o. They look upon all equally, the high and the low; they speak of Him with their mouths, and honor Him in their minds. ||1||Pause|| Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Eerie.... This is quote from the Oracle at Temple Delphi: Man Know Thyself, and thou shalt know the all the mysteries of the universe and God.

That applies to men too you know.. Maybe the men should also start doing the seva they don't want like making langar, instead of wanting to be granthi, Panj pyaras or other leadership roles. and I wasn't speaking about me personally but of a whole gender being told no by the other gender such that those women who might be really deserving (not that they are asking for it) but if they are deserving are being passed over simply because of their gender to give someone else who might not be as deserving but has the right 'parts'. For myself I help where I can. I can't cook, so I sometimes help with making the dough balls for the rotis. And I also did the website for the gurdwara and maintain it for them. I have also helped with fundraising and was treasurer last year and member at large this year on executive. But I know a women who was serious high avastha and was passed over for Panj pyaras to give to showboating young Singhs who are not even that serious in their Rehet, sinply because they were male and she wasn't. And it hurt to see that. Did she complain? No.. But someone should speak for her. She was too humble but she doesn't deserve to be overlooked because of her gender. Why should women who are in her case I'd say a sant even, be kept quiet and in shadows of men who are nowhere hear her spiritually?? I really dont think this is what Guru Ji wanted. Any way I know these are small numbers as outside of Internet most Sikhs I know support equal opportunity in seva. It just seems like on here the extremists are.

They are clarifying many things. I am realizing it's not Sikhi I am struggling with but only some peoples interpretation of Sikhi. And that I don't have to follow Punjabi culture to be Sikh. and those people are not even majority. Yes certain members view of women hurts... But I know I can't change them. I just hope they doesn't influence anyone else to think like that. Like maybe new members that come here and end up thinking this is how Sikhi sees women. From what you have seen so far, in your opinion am I on right track how I have been analyzing meaning from shabads? By looking at full context and getting the deeper (and sometimes metaphorical) meanings? Like the ones so far in this thread you said I have been interpreting them correctly... If so I will just continue what I have been doing... Gurbani should be final authority on things right? And Rehet should agree with Gurbani. I am just going to follow Sikhi how I have been following: I will follow Sikh Rehet Maryada because I believe in panthic decision and furthermore that's the Rehet given to me by Panj Pyaras and accepted by Akal Takht......I'm not going to isolate myself during certain times just because some Sikhs think I am impure (though of course I will always use appropriate hygiene products).........I will show my husband love respect devotion how I feel comfortable doing (and that's not patti Parmeshwar thing as to me it's more important to see God in everyone - including within myself)..... and if anyone thinks that makes me less Sikh in their eyes well they aren't in majority anyway. certainly though u must be understanding where and how I got to be so frustrated?? You don't need to look very far in the threads recently. And even another female member is now becoming disheartened at what she is reading.

I have actually and yes I have seen the word hell in Gurbani but when you take full shabad in context it seems to not be talking about a literal place like you know fire pit or something but more the punishment you judge yourself. That yes there are realms above this one (and I have experienced some of them first hand through OBEs) but that hell is more spoken of as state of mind and that state of mind is what determines what level or where you are in these realms or planes. As I said higher planes equal higher vibration and higher states like love also equal higher vibration and so you tune into higher levels automatically. Whereas lower vibration attracts lower etc. I don't think he'll spoken of in Gurbani means fire pit for eternal torture like in other religions so while a similar or same word was used in translation I don't think it has same implication as in for example Abrahamic doctrine. And yes I have read full SGGSJ (in English translation). But that's the feeling I get from the context of the shabads that mention hell.

So why is it ok for him to present one side but not ok for someone to present other side? Is only one side of things allowed to be presented? The side you like? I wasn't yelling or segueing. I was posting counter points to what he posted. This IS a discussion forum right? He may not be able to see it but what if people new here see his arguments only without the opposite? They will automatically think women are impure in Sikhi and that women can't be Panj pyaras because of some story about light not entering the women? Counter points should always be presented so someone new here will get both sides. and that Gurbani says opposite to what he is trying to say about women and the RM he is referring to and following is not the only one and is not followed by majority of Sikhs...and is not the one accepted by Akal Takht. So these things should be presented. And I am not yelling or getting frustrated.. Just want both sides to be visible to people reading this. It IS a discussion right???

Would it be better to associate them with the planes then? Or lower planes are lower energy ( not hell in same concept as other religions) and higher planes higher vibration are more positive? The model I learned a long time ago being physical/etheric --- astral --- mental --- etc

I can't listen if it's in Punjabi but I thought Sikhi has no concept of a literal Hell? Just cycle of rebirth and death until liberation? I thought hell and heaven are Abrahamic concepts? I know Paapiman can't see this but can someone who watched it answer? Thanks...

Hey I didnt do anything wrong! I just showed him how seeing menstruation like that he also has to consider what males go through too! I already know Gurbani speaks against menstruation being seen as impure. And that I realize its been him and not Sikhi that has been making me disheartened. (well him and others who have same thinking as him). It's not Sikhi I am doubting, just that group of Sikhs. I will be fine now... I am following SRM and I will still advocate for equal treatment in Darbar Sahib etc. Hopefully someday justice will happen. Don't get your kacheras in a knot.

Yes women can bleed after a bath... but if they use diva cup there is 0% chance of a leak!!!! And since it sits INSIDE the woman, there is NOTHING leaving her body till she removes it! Think of it like a cap on a bottle. When it's on, nothing can come out of the bottle! Similarly, the diva cup is like a cap... when worn nothing can physically leave the girls body! And yes its more safer than any other hygiene product! Its medical grade silicone! So all males over 30 should be stopped from seva of SGGSJ then LOL. And not just for few days a month! :)

Paapiman just has a personal issue with women. I think one must have hurt him somehow... because his whole thinking is looking down on us. If there is a way he can try to justify limiting us or making us feel like lesser than men, he monopolizes on it and tries to push that agenda as if it's SIKHI. But it's not, its only certain Sikhs who think like this, and it doesn't make them right.

hahah Diva Cup is 110% safe! haha. And this is what Rehet Maryada Says: We can't change Maryadas right?? LOL. Read it above! If you bar women, you are essentially going against Akal Takht rules...

There is a difference,... women now have internal devices that keep the fluid completely internal, no chance of a leak ever, and can be worn for over 12 hours! Google Diva Cup. Wearing this, there is virtually 0 chance that she would EVER soil anything! Contrast this with many males who leak urine for a time after they urinate! I am pretty sure that majority of males do not wear protection and nearly all will have drops of urine on their kacheras. And this is HUGELY COMMON in 30's and more in males as prostrate gets larger! How many males in 30s or later enter sachkhand with dribbled urine on their kacheras??

Ya know I just realized something... I was worried that it was Sikhi I was become averse to... nope... it's Paapiman's clouded version of Sikhi which I was averse to. Luckily I am seeing that his version of Sikhi is way wrong! And thanks to Amardeep Ji for answering the questions which are making this apparent.

This is what he just posted in the other thread... so this is NOT a rule in Sikhi??

Think of it this way, there is only ONE soul in all existence! Our separate identities are illusion. How can you tell one part of yourself to stay away from yourself??

QUESTION #6 Is there a ban on women entering Takhts or where Guru Ji is kept while she is menstruating? I assume this will be same answer as for sitting on Tabiya. Modern Hygiene products means the issue is a non issue now. But since Paapiman has just stated that it's a direct rule.... is he correct??

Ummm maybe in DDT they have this rule. But it's not a rule at Akal Takht as far as I know. There were no signs there saying stop you bleeding women, no entry allowed. LOL. I think this is silly because of modern hygiene products. Last time I checked men don't wear hygiene products to protect against leaks haha But as far as I know any Amritdhari can enter Takhts and also where Guru Ji is kept without any mention of menstruation.

QUESTION # 5 - Why are some Singhs so against Bibis tying turbans? AKJ both women and men tie dastars Guru Ji's 52 Hukams tells all Sikhs to tie turbans Gurbani says to let your total awareness be the turban on your head Turban was part of uniform of Khalsa Sometimes I feel like the Singhs against it are against it because having us be less in Guru's roop will be more justification on all the above. Or it feels like they want it to be anyway. Talk of wanting feminine etc. But then condemning the women for the same... On here I was attacked by member Crystal last year in PM asking me how I felt being a "tranny" and specifically mentioned the turban and my face (from my pic), and saying he had just realized I was first Sikh tranny... Do Singhs really think we look like trannies tying turbans? Were turbans really meant for only males? Didn't Mai Bhagi tie one? Didn't Harmandir Sahib require turbans of ANYONE looking to take Amrit prior to 20th century? (Or did I read that wrong)?

THIS is what I am talking about!!!! ^^^^ And btw ALL Maryadas are man made. If they were God Made, then we wouldn't have all kind of different Rehetnamas etc. all with different ideas. They were written by humans, trying to put what they believe is the correct conduct according to their own lenses. Also, you can sense the disgust in his tone above... trying to equate women with things he considers to be abominations... like homosexuality, and menstruation. Not commenting on homosexuality, but as far as menstruation goes, Gurbani is pretty clear on that!!! Please refer to the thread where I am asking Amarjeet these questions. Gurbani CONDEMNS idea of ritual impurity because of blood. GURBANI = GURU and GURU = GOD RIGHT????? WE HAVE THE ANSWERS ALREADY IN SGGSJ!!!