CdnSikhGirl

That instance in 1970's with 3HO was the only that I know of... and the women were not the ones actually doing kirtan. One tried, on the upper level of Darbar Sahib, and a group stood around her to block the jathedars who came to stop her so she was able to finish. Not sure the background on when that was but I think she was also 3HO. But these things should be rectified. If nobody can answer why something is happening... then really should it continue? In fact Akal Takht did say that women would be allowed, but then the nay sayers kicked up a huge stink. Those nay sayers were DDT and Sant Samaj. (according to news stories about it). ANd since they kicked up such a stink protesting it, still no women have done kirtan there. And this was a few years ago at least.

But do we know that's what happens? Or are we just saying that to make ourselves feel better about killing an innocent animal? In nature eventually ALL animals will evolve spiritually and reach human form. Is it up to us to kill them to make it faster? What purpose to cover weapons in blood of an innocent?? Btw spiritual evolution --- that is the nature of the Universe. Unfolding consciousness... through four stages --- mineral --- plant ---- animal ---- human.

Exactly... however certain members on here knowing this have directly put AKJ down, and call them lowest like nindaks etc. for it. (well this and ragmaala issue) Seems some just are not happy if there is the choice. They want to remove the choice of everyone and make everyone conform to their way of thinking only.

How is the above any different than Islam sacrificing animals?? I thought Sikhi was against animal sacrifice? (not killing per say, but the idea of ritually sacrificing an animal - is this not teapot calling kettle black??)

Not just west. Akhand Kirtani Jatha allow both - actually allow isnt even the word to use. Rather, they choose their Panj Pyaras based on their spiritual level and dedication, and not on what's between their legs. This includes AKJ in India. I have actually seen it.

QUESTION #4 WHY are women not allowed to do most seva at Harmandir Sahib, when that is considered our most holy place, shouldn't there more than anywhere be leading by example? - Palki Sahib Seva - reason has been given that women can't physically carry it. But many could, and I doubt that weak women would try. I'm sure that if a woman went to do this seva she is preety sure she could physically do it. Another reason is that the men might molest her???? Souldn't SInghs doing SEVA be able to refrain themselves from molesting someone?? - KIRTAN - this is the big one! No matter how talented a jatha of Singhnis is, they will never be approved to perform there, simply because of their gender. Is there anything in Sikhi to say that a male voice is prefered for Singing hymns and praises to Waheguru? Some of the female jathas I have heard are amazing and have amazing harmonies etc that the men just can't get having lower voices! I have heard really great male ragis too but the girls I have heard should not be left out! If they can do kirtan anywhere else, what is the reason they can not perform there? - Washing Sanctum Sanctorum with milk - while it did happen once decades ago that was seen as a "consolation" and reasons are given that men remove their bottom and only have kachera on. Is there anything that says one MUST remove their bottoms? Or is this done only to keep from being soaked with milk? In any case if a Singhni doesn't mind getting milk on her salwar, then what is the issue??? I remember seeing a panting of a Singhni actually doing this seva with milk. There are much more... the jathedars that walk around are all male, the ones that attend alongside Granthi are males (putting the garlands etc), women are not even allowed to sit on same side as Ragis. Can a woman be nominated as Head Granthi at Darbar Sahib?? btw biggest opposers of women and seva there particularly kirtan were: Damdami Taksal and Sant Samaj

I'm fine with choice... I'm fine with all males, as long as females are not excluded. If it happens to be all males one time and the next time a mixture and the next time all females I really don't mind! I'm not saying a woman has to be every time :) I'm saying they shouldn't be excluded completely. That way if a guy is really THAT worried he can take it during a time when they are males. If a woman wants all females she can take it when they have all females... etc. Ultimately I think the Panj Pyaras should be chosen based on their avastha, their spiritual level, and should be the five most spiritually active members in Sangat. Their physical attributes should not come into it.

@paapiman I know you don't usually read my posts but here is a paradox: You stated that Guru Ji Light actually enters the Panj Pyaras and that it is HIM who gives amrit right?? How do you explain then when I took Amrit, from five males, they actually told us females present that day that women CAN do this seva as Panj Pyaras, not only that they directly told us that they WANT TO SEE AT LEAST SOME OF US in their place someday also doing seva as Panj Pyaras!!! Remember you just said it was Guru Ji who actually gives Amrit. This was said DURING the Amrit Sanchar BY THE PANJ PYARAS! Meaning, it was actually GURU JI SAYING IT!!!!

Right and also not unfiarly pushed into taking it from all males!!

No because this position is the highest honour position a Sikh can be asked to do. And it directly deals with our spiritual advancement. If ALL SIkhs are to strive to take Amrit, and only males can give amrit, then that says women are somehow lacking spiritually and need to be pulled along by the men. Its saying women require men to advance spiritually but then men do not require women. But this goes against Gurbani saying that these bodies are false and that soul is genderless. Gurbani should be the final say. And it's pretty clear on everyone being treated equally. Anyway I HAVE taken Amrit. And the Panj Pyaras SPECIFICALLY TOLD US THAT WOMEN CAN DO THIS SEVA. And not only that they told us they WANT TO SEE SOME OF US in their position someday!!!! They were not afraid of women! They were HUGELY EMPOWERING!!! Remember they said this DURING THE AMRIT SANCHAR!!!!! So if Guru Ji actually enters the Panj Pyaras, then it was GURU JI SAYING THIS!!!!!!

Also, someone brand new to Sikhi would likely not be jumping right into Amrit anyway... So yes, they have choice to take AMrit from group who has women and they should be given all the facts: - Nothing in Gurbani to say otherwise - Nothing in Guru Ji 52Hukams to say otherwise - Gurbani actually INSTRUCTS us to see everyone equally (see above) - SRM specifically states both women and men can be Panj Pyaras - DDTs RM states that creation of the Khalsa ELIMINATED all such differences, INCLUDING GENDER. - No RM specifically says women are not allowed - Amrit Sanchar is spiritual rebirth and souls are all formless (having no gender) so why would a penis be required? - Guru Ji called for five HEADS that day. It was not a test to single out women. If a woman had risen do you think he would have said sorry sister this is only for the guys. It happened that the five were male but it doesnt mean he forever put a ban on women Since there is no definitive anything saying women can not. Then the only thing which is keeping women from doing it are the Singhs! Keeping a tradition that happened for no other reason than "that's how we have been doing it" but does Sikhi uphold a tradition that exists for no other reason than to discriminate??? I don't think so!

For me it's a no brainer... Gurbani says these bodies are FALSE. That includes the gender. TRUE reality is formless ONEness nirankar. And ultimate reality is only ONE light. We are ALL WITHIN and a PART of that ONE light! Ask yourself if you are in the dark, even tiniest candle will dispell the darkness right? Gurbani says that SAME divine light is in ALL. That's not all males... it means ALL. This idea of women not being able to be Panj Pyaras is only caused by doubt in MENS minds caused by Ego identity which only seeks to divide and live through duality. If you truly want to seek ONEness... then you can't do so unless you include women in that. Stop trying to suggest we have taken risk by taking amrit from group who allows women. our very seat of authority Akal Takht has made it clear already. By saying this, you will only cast doubt in new Sikh's minds... and thus create MORE duality and division. We DO very much a direct authority we can ask regarding this or anything!!!! GURBANI! Gurbani is also clear on this: The "light" is already within ALL of us! And a GURMUKH would see all with a single eye of equality. Now the meaning of "single eye" means justice. Its saying that justice is that all are treated equally. Meaning nobody should be given any privilege over others based on false statuses. Gurbani condemns duality as being false, and ONEness as being Truth. How can we have ONEness if we operate through Ego and try to find reasons, doubts, etc to only divide us more?? Page 20, Line 8ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰੀ ਬੂਝੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥Gẖat gẖat joṯ niranṯrī būjẖai gurmaṯ sār. ||4||One who sees that Light within each and every heart understands the Essence of the Guru's Teachings. ||4|| Page 599, Line 2 ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥ गुरमुखि एक द्रिसटि करि देखहु घटि घटि जोति समोई जीउ ॥२॥ Gurmukẖ ek ḏarisat kar ḏekẖhu gẖat gẖat joṯ samo▫ī jī▫o. ||2|| As Gurmukh, look upon all with the single eye of equality; in each and every heart, the Divine Light is contained. ||2||

Let me rephrase that... I don't want to support a philosophy that perpetuates women being given less privilege compared to men. Precisely because I see that same light in both so it's unfair. If u have two kids one with brown hair and one with blond. Can you justify telling one kid he has more rights because he has blond hair while other has to live with lesser role because he has brown hair??? Especially when the things he is restricted from have nothing to do with hair or its colour??? what it comes down to is there is nothing in Sikhi that says to restrict women from anything. The people who do so are attached to some tradition that just happened because they fear change. Just because that's how you have been doing something doesn't mean it was ever mean to become tradition... It's just how it happened. And traditions can change for positive. Be all inclusive... As long as the person is Amritdhari follows Rehet and is high avastha they can do seva as Panj pyaras. Nothing exists explicitly saying no they can't. And nothing proves what guru Ji wanted either way. And Panth has authority to make decisions. Guest Ji your personal feelings regarding women as Panj pyaras tells more about your own personality and fear of women and change than Sikhi. Case in point since same light is in all then why can't u accept women doing this seva?? Why can u just follow Gurbani and treat everyone with a single eye of equality and see the same divine light in everyone?? Says more about u then me...

@amardeep this is what I am talking about.... ^^^ insyead of the possibility that maybe the light didn't enter them because of their gian, their level of spirituality... It MUST be because a woman was part LOL blame it on the woman!!! Haha or possibly someone talking out their... Making up reasons to discriminate. By the way GURBANI says the divine light is already in ALL. So nothing is coming or going... In essence ALL is that ONE light anyway! Page 20, Line 8 ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰੀ ਬੂਝੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥ Gẖat gẖat joṯ niranṯrī būjẖai gurmaṯ sār. ||4|| One who sees that Light within each and every heart understands the Essence of the Guru's Teachings. ||4||

FULLY AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS!!!!! Waheguru Ji did not mess up. Natural is beautiful.

Maybe we should encourage it more?? Instead of encouraging lavish lehengas, and jewelry etc. Bana looks awesome and she looks fearless! THAT'S the image of Kaur!!!

This answer your question??? Why yes.... yes she CAN!!! ;)

Haha you just reminded me when I first met my husband.... we had gone for pony ride in Kashmir, and I have ridden horses before, not so sure about him. Anyway he fell off his pony :P No we didn't have a horse at our wedding. haha

I don't know... I wasn't speaking about the physical stamina etc. Just specifically on what Paapiman was saying that seeing the kill in a hunt will prepare you for seeing dying / dead people. It won't. But i can't imagine PTSD just being a new thing... seeing suffering affects people, I don't think time period matters. There are natural antidepressants etc. so possibly... St Johns Wort has been used a long time for anxiety. Do you know what type of natural substances were mentioned?

Hunting does not prepare anyone for that. There is a very high suicide rate among first responders know why? Hunting does not prepare you for seeing a fellow human suffering. Even if they are your enemy, it changes when you see them dying and crying because they will miss their family etc. and then you realize they were human just like you. Regardless of how they were brought up. Its only in those last moments of life in battle that soldiers realize that they and their opponents are no different. The divine light resides in ALL. It's ALL God's play. In case of first responders, like paramedics, police etc. many end up killing themselves as result of PTSD not because of the gore itself but because they know that is / was a person who had a family who loves them, who had dreams and wishes and goals in life that wont be fulfilled now. I worked on recovery of an airplane crash in the Navy. Swiss Air Flight 111. Largest piece of the plane recovered from the water was about size of a car door so you can imagine the state of the passengers.... It changed me... and no hunting would have ever prepared me for it.

While this technology won't give you immediate miraculous results, what it does seem to do easily is allow you to feel the vibrations. I don't mean physical vibrations, but the vibrations that everyone talk about that accompany out of body experiences etc. They are non physical vibrations but you do feel them in a very real sense in your body. Its difficult to explain. But the embedded brainwave technology somehow makes it easier to get to that point. Its still only a beginning point to altered states of consciousness and perceptions. But many people find it difficult to get even to that stage to feel the vibrations at all. So maybe it will help them. Instead of the recordings with new agey music like the above, I recommend the app for iphone as you can put your own tracks over it... meaning you can listen to simran with it which I think would be really good!! Actually I may try that tonight!! :)

Why pay for these things when you can try for free?? There are YouTube vids with hours of this stuff available!

They likely dont work for everyone... and you still have to do your part... meaning you cant just listen and expect results. You still need to focus, do simran during etc. They are just a tool.

Actually the Chaupa Singh Rehetnama says women can't read from SGGSJ AT ALL as in like at no time period or not. (in sangat anyway) Though it says they can read alone for themselves. Can you start to see though WHERE and HOW I came to the frustration I have been feeling on all these issues??? Anyway will continue more tomorrow as I have to go out for a bit. Cheers and thanks...

Huggies are causing so much pollution in the world... all that plastic... diaper mountains! If you have a child, please consider fabric diapers, They have an insert that is washable, the diaper itself (more like a cover) is washable, and you can get thin liners that go on top. So the thin liner catches the solid material and is flushable and then you just wash the insert and the diaper itself. And you can get many many colourful and cute patterns. Yes you use water and energy to wash them. But plastic lasts forever before it breaks down and think about how many millions go into landfills each year! Okay... off my environmental high horse now.... LOL.