sevak

I was reading SGGS, to me it seems that the SGGS is continuopusly asking us to find a sant, saint , a friend who can show us the way to God.

How come a woman never agreed to offer her head when Guru Gobind Singh ji asked for a head during baisakhi? So I kind of dont like this question "Why women cant be sants?" No seva and simran and all the time emotional attacment makes jack a dull boy ! It is like a person who never did any seva and simran and is asking "why didnt i get to be sant?" as we can see only those who did seva and simran became sants or Gurus, but there very few women who did this and many did ofcourse.

hell nogroup singh, I went to that thread. It is nice, but I still dont get the answer to my question. so lets discuss... afterall what is sadh-sangat?

Fateh bolao: Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Today I went to the Gurudwara and the granthi which had come from amritsar gave a very very long speech on Sadh sangat. I had myself read and heard a lot on how important Sadh sangat is. I mean it is the most important feature because by it people's mind can change and they can come on the path on sikhi. Kabeer himself describes that just as a water from an odinary river becoems good if it mixes with a good river and in the sameway if water from an odinary river mixes with dirty water , then it becomes dirty. So the people around whom we associate, our friends and where we go and what we listen to .. has a deadly affect on the mind. The granthi also told that how a nastik attained brahmgyan just by living for 10 days in the sadhsangat of Guru nanak and how bhai lehna got transformed when he started coming to the sangat of Guru Nanak. also a person who stays in good sadh sangat is not touched by vikaras, kaam, karodh...etc where as a person who has no sadh sangat can be easily hunted down by any of these 5 evils. Now , my question is that I dont have sadh sangat. Currently I am on vocation in kuwait and i goto gurudwara weekly, I am leaving to India day after tommorrow. I have no sadh sangat and no good spiritual friends I am a regular student at a school in usa. As everyone of you are aware of how sangat is in schools (very bad) and you ahve to live with them in the hostel and all those things ! I know the great effect it can hve on my mind.. if I stay all my life in gurudwara or even more in the company of sants and mahapurshs. for the time being my sangat is only on this internet. so far I have found sikhawareness to be a pretty good internet group for discussion, becoz this is the only group that i see discuss about gurbani, gurmat discussions and places the question of meeting God. Also, i am planning to spend sometime reading the posts on bab maan singh ji and other posters who post articles. for the time being this might be sangat. but plz any advice.. . how can a person get good sadh sangat, stay in good company and not get his mind affected even if he has to stay in a bad environment(worldly environment). ps: i was thinking if we could add ll ourselves on msn or some chatting network where we can all chat and this might create soem sangat effect.

The points mentioned by no gourp sikhs are very interesting. I will make a note of them later on. In anycase..I try my best to wake up at amrit vela and sometimes with great determination I am successful.. usually waking up at 3:30 and then starting off at 4 am... however I sometimes fall asleep and in some days it is good. Currently I am on vocation .. so I really dont do anything in the morning.. So I am thinking about utilising the full night for smiran/nitnem. You know it is just that thought if you ask yourself, if this was your lasrt night on earth.. would you spend it sleeping or doing simran? I agree to the point that during sirman body must be fresh and not feel any tierdness and this is something important. I am trying to get at that also. Once I was reading the biography of Baba Harnaam Singh ji from BOSS website. In it baba harnaam singh ji use to come home very tierd from working in the fields and one can imagine that this kind of labour work will tire your body very much and then he use to do simran/nitnem from midnight (I am not sure correct me if I am wrong) and if he use to fall asleep then he would stand in a bucket of cold water. It so happened that by Maharaji's kirpa the need for the body to sleep went off. Please correct me if I am wrong since it has been a long time that I have read that story. In anycase, please share your experience. Here in kuwait the sky is already bright at 4 am .. but before 4 am it is dark. I will be leaving to india after one day. There is another topic which I want to ask. I am starting a thread in this forum.

jtsingh, I really dont know about nanaksaar parmapara or much about them. All i have done is read a little bit of biography of Baba Harnaam Singh and Baba Nand Singh ji, these are the only two sikhs saints in recent history that I know a little aobut there story. Now there is sant baba ishar singh ji and sant baba attar singh ji .. which I am inspired to read it.

yes N3O SINGH, I am international student iin USA. I am not resident of USA. I am studying there at a university, currently I am at middle east visitn my parent and will be visiing india after 2 days and with God's will I might be granted amrit. There are lots of problem to this.. especially with keeping kirpan in the USA. my grandfather says amrit vela is the 4th quarter of night when it is between night and day and that is from 4-7 and there are others who says it is from midnight to six. I know there is a gurbani verse which says from what amrit vela is, if i am right it is by Guru Arjun Dev, but I cant find it. I will search it now. Khalsa, it is wonder ful to wake up at 1 or 2. One of my fanatasy is just to live in the company of sadhus and mahapurshs in some forest in india and practice simran full time, ofcourse doing kirt , seva also... life as usual is hard and difficult to wake up at such early times , especially when you live in weatern country and come home tierd. But I guess that is what the life of a sikh should be. hard I guess ! :?

Hey N3O Singh, These things I have myself learnt and by listenning to storeis for Grat mahapurshs like Baba Harnaam Singh and Baba Nand Singh Sahib and stories from Guru's time. Dasm Dwaar is located at the top of the crown of the head? is that right, correct me if I am wrong and that is where from Amrit drops down? jtsingh, I suggest you visit this site. They hve good things http://www.srigurugranthsahib.org and http://ww.babanandsingh.org

what aobut just no sleeping at niht and using it to do simran or nitnem? i know that sounds crazy, but many sant mahapurshs did that. let me know? also plz tell me wht is the time of amrit vela from? some say it is from midnight and others say it is from 4 am. plz show by gurbani quoting. i know there is a verse available but i dontknow where to find it now.

My experience has been mostly with westerners. http://www.hsuyun.org .. just see this site. but I have also read from eastern books... man bottom line is that they are athiest and they tend to God-realization experiences of others in their own short, incorrect experiences.. which is not true. ofcourse there are other good buddhist traditions , but most have dried up. Without Loving Devotion to God.. nothing is possible, nothing is possible, nothing is possible. You can sit in Zazen all your life .. but you wont even be a pint closer to God without Loving devotion to God. These zen, yoga methods are all different types of technological methods, techniques that people use to find God, but God is not found by any of this. He is only and only and only found by Love. Zen, Yoga philosophy will make you intellect/chatur/chalaak and very clever , smart and wise... but these things are barriers to finding God, because only innoncence, bhola-pan can lead to God and only such a person has less ego.

It is not that zen didnt click for me ! It is simply that I did learn a lot from zen, infact I had all the zenexperiences (no-mind) and was able to understand their point, but you see there approach to the Truth is incorrect and I dont find that it will lead you to God. See look without loving devotion to God nothing is obtained. A person who maybe most dumb about zen things and no-mind stuff and if he loves God in his heart even a little.. he is much much closer to God than zen people who may not achknowledge God and may keep doing zazen all the time. but somehow God bieng kind to these people also gives them some good enlightenment in someway. In anycase Zen people have their own itnerpretation of God. God is 'this' and God is 'that' .. kind of hard to explain. They are very egoistical and pride. I left them a long time ago. I have more peace.. MUCH MUCH more peace of mind with sikhism.

Hello, I would like to see how many wake up at amrit vela and what times and if you could share your experience of morning practice. Curently I am not doing any gurbani reciting only simran. I usually stay awake on ineternet and do simran at 2 am or 3am for an hour and fall asleep after that and sometimes i wake up at 4 am and i find myself sleeping. However, I am deciding not to sleep at all and trying to do some hard work. I mean what place is there for comfort? and right now i got my own room.. so i can do wat i want .. but laters i cant. I would also like to knwo from what times is amrit vela? is it from 4am or from 12 midnight as some people say it. Can anyone quote this from gurbani. I know I read it somewhere but cant find it.

okay I am misunderstanding slightly here. What is the meaning of murshad? from my understanding murshad means Guru, Satguru according to suleman's tape. okay so you are saying we DO need a Sant Mahapursh to merge us with the Guru/God. Well then that answers my question, so it means you do need someone. some guide, some teacher who has already merged with the Guru/God to unite you with, right? I agree SGGS is the Satguru. Baba Nand Singh and Baba Harnaam Singh both taught this, they even saw the 10 Gurus in the SGGS. However SGGS is in its purest state (Amrit Bani or Gurbani), we can not precieve it directly and we can not know it directly. So we do need a human interface ! okay then but Guru Gobind Singh ji did place the coconut and paise and declared SGGS as the 11th Satguru and said "Guru maaniyeoo granth". Then why cant we get God directly from SGGS just as people got God directly from the 10 Gurus without any help from mahapursh or sant? In anycase Guru Nanak said that true seekers of God are provided with a Guru and on another ineterent site that I was reading it said that one should increase love for the Guru and Guru will love you back and then one should start loving so much and start knocking on the door behind which the Guru is and such that the Guru is forced to open the door and meet you. for the time being. Let us all have FULL faith in SGGS as our Satguru. If incase we do meet a mahapursh or sant then we should serve him and learn from him, because this is the real company of sadh-sangat (Sadhu-sangat).. which Guru ji recommends.

n30 singh, that is not a concrete answer and doesnt satisfy my question. In your previous post with the example of baba nand singh sahib and baba harnaam singh sahib, you are already implying the need of a human guru who has united with God. Also in this post you are slightly supporting that idea. well it does mean we need a human Guru or sant or mahapursh to help us right or not? and without such a person we can not meet the SGGS Guru or God, right? I was reading Baba Harnaam Singh ji's biography, have not read it full.. but where did he have a guru?

Yes his name is Gurdeep Singh, well does he mention that he is taking the SGGS as his murshad or wasnt he going after Baba Sant Ishar Singh ji as murshad? my question is that based on suleman's tape he is talking about the need of a human murshad who has united with God and only this can unite you with God. So do sikhs need such a murshad? He also said that he is not interested in islam,becoz islamic tradition doesnt allow a murshad and it is called kafirana

Yes I agree with you. Ego-inflation occuring through gian is a major major major problem in zen and in the sameway blind faith out of blind love(Which cant be called love) is also a major problem in bhakti. i have met individuals in both cases, but if bhakti executed correctly will results in fine tuned gian attainment and both go hand in hand. However without bhakti one can not attain God. This is a fact. Bhakti when executed correctly and without indulging in fanciful stories(lik hare krishnas) will give you gian, which is important. The story of bhagat namdev as a child is a proof to this. Bhakti leads to gian and a giani will become a bhakta. In anycase, when you talked about zen it brought some of my old memories out, I really dont recognise that as an authentic path even though one may get enlightenment in it, but still it is not very effective. What may take you 10 years in zen to understand... will take you only one second in sikhism if you follow the instructions of the Guru. So are you a zen studenet? I will be honest with you. I dont want to be biased or lower any path, but I truely feel that what Guru Nanak did and the path he has found.. nothing in this world can ever be equal to it.

I know this board.I use to post there. It is a VERY VERY VERY VERY BIASED FORUM. Its main Goal is to only promote Hinduism thats all and cruntch all religions !

In the cassette Suleman. Suleman is asked if he knew any pir, murshad or sant in islam tradition. and suleman said that he cant answer that question and that in islam a person is to be concerned only with mohammed and that suleman doesnt want to beleive in islam and suleman says that without murshad there is no mukti ! In addition this suleman also says that a murshad that has come and already passed can not give you mukti. In otherwords mohammed came and passed and he cant do anything now and that he needs a living murshad ! right now at this time. so that he gets mukti. so i dont get it ! why isnt he going for the sggs?

Hello, This topic is in response to the topic "Need Guru". I just thought about creating a seperate topic. Below are quotes that I am providing from http://www.srigurugranthsahib.org One who has taken shelter, protection of any hymn of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, should consider himself accommodated in this Greatest Saviour ship, Kalyug Ke Bohit, Nam Ke Jahaj Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj Sri Guru Granth Sahib (1408) In this Dark Age Kaliyuga, Guru Arjan is the Ship (Saviour) attached to Him the world is ferried across Part of Ardas Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj In this Terrible Kali-Age, Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the Saviour Ship. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the Celestial Ship of the Divine Name. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the Protector, the Saviour in this world and the worlds hereafter. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the Eternal Guru, Jaagdi Jot. Is the Illuminator and the Divine Sustainer of the whole universe. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is an Ocean of Nectar and a drop of this Nector is enough for emancipation. Pointing towards Sri Guru Granth Sahib: “Eh Jeonda, Jaagda, Bolda Guru Nanak Hai” Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj God revealed Himself to Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj in all His Glory and that is what Sri Guru Granth Sahib stood for and meant to Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj. Whereas for others Sri Guru Granth Sahib represents a mere holy scripture, for Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj, Sri Guru Granth Sahib stands for the all powerful, luminous, omni-present God. For a man with ‘I’ ego, Sri Guru Granth Sahib is only a Book. For a truth seeker, it is the Satguru in another of his form. For an Enlightened Soul, Sri Guru Granth Sahib is ‘Jeonda, Jaagda, Bolda Guru Nanak’ – The Living Sri Guru Nanak Sahib Himself. Baba Narinder Singh Ji The form of Sri Guru Granth Sahib changes with the stage of disciple. It varies with the level of love. Baba Narinder Singh Ji As one bows reverentially to an old or elderly person to touch his feet or knees, the hand of the elderly person automatically comes on the head or shoulder of the youngster to bless him. So is the nature of Sri Guru Nanak Sahib. As one bows reverentially to pay homage at the holy feet of Eternal Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the compassionate holy hands of Sri Guru Nanak Sahib similarly move forward on the head of a true aspirant, believer, devout, faithful and bless him. Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj Remember that with true Sharnagati at the Lotus Feet of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, precious commodity called Mukti (Salvation) will roll about your feet. Baba Narinder Singh Ji

okay fine it is clear now. The bottom lines it that we do need a Satguru who can teach us and the SGGS even though it is proven is Guru Nanak himselfy by Baba Nanad Singh Sahib, we are not yet developed and tuned to it? perhaps when a sikh is ready SGGS comes in the roop of some mahapursh. In anycase then is not the SGGS the True Guru of the Sikhs. Is there any sant who attained God only and only through the SGGS and not relying on anyone else?? anyways Guru Nanak said taht the true guru is given by the lord to all sincere seekers.

Interesting questions jtsingh, I would like to answer all of them. Just gotot his site.. this is the zen school from where I use to study from http://www.hsuyun.org. I have left zen path a long long time ago feeling that it is inconsistent and is not good enough to lead one to God. Again, the real focus on God is that which arises through LOVE towards God. This in itself should be the source of concentration in your simran ! When you do simran, your simran should be as if a darshan thirsty child is calling onto God and praying to Him to be with her. Naam simran means remembering God through His name, again true repeating of Naam is like that of a sufering child calling out towards God. Just like a crying child in need of milk keeps on calling the name of his mother ! Uptill now I have not met any good enough enlightend zen people who are that enlightened as our Gurus ! secondly, even the so-called enlightened ones are only partially enlightened. I agree there must be zen people who were really enlightened ages ago, such as bodhidharma. In now a days zen practice if someone gets a satori ,t hey think they reached enlightenment and they think it is all about living in the present moment.. and thats it all.. they get all puffed up with pride ! I have studied the vivekachoodmani with commentaries given by swami chinmayananda. It is a good book, but again I do not find the path to God in the vivekachoodamani and things as shankaracharya describes. It is simply matchless as compared to the SGGS. again, I doubt this guy osho. Do you know they have center in pune in which they use sex that also multiple sex to get enlightenment. his philosophy is that the more you indulge in sex you get tiered of it and you become free. Gurus rejected this philosophy saying that fire can not be destroyed by fire. Plus I dont think he was an authentic guy. Okay now you are asking me some real questions. The Love comes by God's kirpa, it comes by the grace of God and by the good actions and tapsya did in the past karma ! It arises naturally. The Love towards God can arised through by reading Guru's bani. Read shabad haazray, read Jaap sahib, these are medicines to awaken the inner dormant love. Millions of people read it but still they do not get sochi of bani or understanding. However, these are only things that I say, but in reality the Love towards God or the desire to have it comes only by His Grace through good past karma and through good tapsya done in past lifes. This is said in vivekachoodamani also. No not at all. Spiritual wisdom is necessary and is an anti-dote to blind faith and blind practices ! What I said is that a sikh is not concerned with the intellect, the yoga technology and all tthe intellect janana stuff which yogis, zen masters engage in . A true sikh will declare that he knows nothing and will fall at the feet of the Guru. when it comes spiritual wisdom . True spiritual wisdom comes automatically through the practice of bhakti and even though knowing and understanding everything , a sikh will not be concerned with it. With Intellect ‘I’ ego gets inflated. With intellect you cannot tread the path of Bhagti. It is rather the greatest obstacle. In respect of innocent and humble, Guru keeps on passing through, in his place. Baba Narinder Singh Ji ---> THIS IS THE MAIN PROBLEM IN ZEN. Currently i can not find the quote from baba nand singh sahib's website, but in that quote baba ji addresses that a true sikh is not cocnerned with yoga philosophy, with janana or with the intellect. His only concern is in bowing down at the feet of sri Guru Nanak and admitting that he has zero wisdom. In this way he looses all ego ! and obtains the blessings of the Guru. Intellect is a biggest obstactle to God. Wisdom comes through true love and surrenderance and such wisdom can not be described and a sikh doesnt even care about it or talks about it. Even though knowing everything.. he still remains dumb. Gyan will come through Love and it will not come by hankering after it. The Guru's bani is a weapon to develop that love. Highest truth is the surrendering of mind to the Guru. He need not know anything. Yes that is right .. but Gurbani is there to develop love and deattachment and to put the person in the right frame of mind to merge with God. as for your quote from jap ji sahib.. there are several different interpretations. My experience with so many zen .. is that these people add a lot of there masala to other people's philosophy and they will interpret it in such a way that it fits their philosophy. for example each one of them have a different itnerpretation of gita, but they dont see the message of gita was to be a devotee. which they will not do it. similarly they have made there own interpetations about God and it is such and such way and on the otherhand they are completely athiests and that devotion to God is not even needed. infact they give a second preference to devotion and they even say that devotion is low-level. All of this is because of too much over-excess indlugence in janana.

Hello my friends, this is the same question that has been pondering me several times. Ofcourse beyond a doubt.. there is no doubt in this that we do need a Murshad to take us to God. A Murshad is a True-Guru, Sat-Guru who has already united himself with God. This Suleman is always talking about murshaad and his goal is only to get a Murshaad ! thats all. the highest instruction is that you have to do whatever the murshaad is saying. Just take it because the GOD-UNITED Saint can never be wrong, so just do what the God-United Guru is telling you to do. Now lets get back to the SGGS. Yes, the SGGS was made the satguru by Guru Gobind Singh ji, and the SGGS is in its original pure form, the shabad roop, the shabad form ! I myself dont know the anwer to these questions as to why is suleman not making the SGGS is his murshaad. It is clear that he was after Sant Ishar Singh and is referring to murshaad as Sant Ishar Singh. Also can anyone tell me someone who attaiend God through SGGS directly? Baba Harnaam Singh ji and Baba Nand Singh ji are the two sants that come to mind, if I am wrong please correct me. Ramana Maharishi one of the brahmgyanis of south india .. always talked about the importance of satguru to find God and he said it is IMPOSSIBLE without satguru just as suleman has said. Well but he said we need a living satguru in human form??? please answer me.

Okay I am back. I can not be more than interested to reptly to Jt's post on Zen Buddhism. I have to say that in my quest of the truth, I have examined almost all the paths that eastern philosophy. I started of with Zen Buddhism and at the sametime I studied Advaita Vedanta philosophy, Hatha Yoga as well. In my experience none of these philosophies can even equal to a pint the path that our Gurus taught (Seva and Simran). One of the MOST important thing is the need of the Guru to attain God, without this No thing is possible. None of these philosophies including zen talks about this. Even if you ask great advaita enlightened people like Ramana Maharishi have talked about the high importance of a neet of SATGURU to fidn God and without which it is impossible. Guru Gobind Singh ji said that sitting like a crane all day in meditation wont get you anywhere and this is what I would like to say to the zen people who only think that by sitting all day in meditation they will become enlightened. The first question that a person must ask himself is what is Meditation? Meditation is not something like sitting cross-legged with eyes closed all day and trying to stop your thoughts like they do in zen buddhism , it is not even repeating 'har' 'har' with yoru tongue. From what I have learnt is that true meditation is that state of love in which if a child is stolen from the mother and the child is alwayus thinking and craving to meet the mother and is always wanting to be with the mother aind this craving his mind is saturated with the thought of his mother. This type of state of mind is called simran(rememberance) on God. Just as a prisoner is always looking forward for the day he will be realised and will meet his family. In the sameway a person who meditates on God is always thinking of God and is always praying to God : 'Please come and meet me. I can not live without you.' and God hears this prayer and this agony and God understands the pain and God comes to satisfy His devotee. Some people think that by 'methods' God is found and they do all sorts of methods, techniques hoping to find God, such as yoga, trying to live in the "present moment" as in zen ! ... lol all these high experiences that zen people talk about of 'no-mind' will hapen automatically if a person is in love with God, but if a person tries to set these experiencs ..then they will not. Zen philosophy have a big error. Zennists will tell you that there is 'no-mind' and this is how it works and that is how and this is what God is. but in Sikhism, a sikh will say "I am dumb, I dont know anything. everything is known by my Guru. My goal is to only keep my head at the feet of the Guru. I have no knowledge, I have no wisdom. I am the lowest of all." and in this way a Sikh develops humility, egolessness and reaches emptiness. that which zen people take years to understand is understood by a sikh in one day when he cuts off his head and offers it to the Guru. This is true emptiness and no-mind, which is only a partial state and not the end. When it comes to living in the present moment. I have myself experienced that when I was styding zen and i use to try to live in the present moment as my goal.. I could not live. Simply trying to be aware of your surroundings and staying in the present moment has nothing to do with the truth. but when I use to meditate on God all the time , they was taught in Sikhi.. I realized that my mind was naturally at the present moment and there was something different ! .... there was gian (wisdom) .. and understanding which was not there when I was studying zen and trying to live in the present moment. In anycase... A Sikh need not be concerned with how the mind works, wether there is a mind or not and all these intellect things. His concern will only be putting his head at the feet of the Guru adn cultivating more and more love for God, the rest will automatically follow ! Guru Gobind Singh ji said that siksh are not concerned with mukti or other pebbles of heaven, there only one concern is to love God more and more.

Dear jtsingh, I have studied Zen philosphy and Yoga for 3 years and more. I was very much experimenting with zen philosophy, dodgen style meditation and use to sit hours doing it ! but ultimately I came to realize that it is nothing and my experience matched more with the Sikhi philosophy and I felt that zen philosophy and today's zen teachings have a great ERROR in them ! Zen philosophy and all this 'no-mind' thing is a totally different thing from sikhi and it is a BIG ERROR !!! Infact this can even make a person athiest ! As I said that there are two types of meditation. One meditation is that natural inward meditation which comes from ones own will. This is called "Love" or "Prema". It is that craving which Guru Arjun had for Guru Ram Das. It is that cravnig which a mother has for her child and it is that craving which a Sikh has for God. Such a state of mind which comes from within and natural and comes from will-power is much much more stronger than outwardly exericises such as yoga or zazen. anyways. I have to rush and my mom is yelling at me. i will come back later