BabbarSher

Hey people.....its only 10 USD. Dont go to one of those clubs !!!!!, just contribute a USD 10.

Well things may change now as we have woken up. And evrytime somone potrays us as a Joker....we ought to make a united stand....and let the person know our feelings.. The squeaky wheel gets the grease !!!!

Hey Guys and gals I need replies to my post ...giving a confirmation that you are gong to help or ask ur parents to help !!!!!!!!!!!!! OK

I have had this for too long... Hey, any lovely sikh gals wanna know about sikh boys who dont smoke, drink, dont fall for premarital, are very decent..............I will give a u list of 50 at least ;-) Nobody is having a massive pop at our gals. I love em despite what they do or say. It just saddens me when I hear what they do. Even if they wanna marry a clean shaven, its ok...but hey, please dont ridicule the proper Gursikhs. I will always prefer to be with a sikh gal, or a gal on the path of sikhi (respect for the Guru Jis and respect for the proper Gursikhs ......not ridicule for them...and an admission that they are wrong,,and they will make an effort to improve and also improve over time) over a muslim, hindu, christian or jew gal....anytime...anyplace I know how to win over em ....If I have to !!. Charm them lads. If any of our young sikh lads needs any lessons in charms...yours truly can provide em....if the Moderators dont object to it) :-) True boys have to mend their ways ....but just as all of our gals dont go for chikna variety, so also we dont have all our sikh guys drinking and brawling all over the place. The ratios are what are the difference. One seldom hears about a boy asking a gal to wear a mini skirt or to get her hair bobbed to marry her, but it is OHH so explicit in case of many of our gals...who dont even shirk from making advertisement to this effect and thats what saddens me. The least they can do is not to be explicit bout such things Not all of em are like this, and these are the loveliest of the lot. I had especially made a post for these lovely young ladies .....(love u sikh gals). Hey, just take a case of our Board..how many gals are members who actually make a post ??? !!!! Lalleshvari: What you have said is equally true for the clean shaven lot as well.

Lets all HELP 50 million sikhs find their roots - Help the Sikligar Vanjara sikhs. This is the time for all people to support their words with actions:-) "The Background In States of Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh, Madhya Pardesh and Rajasthan etc. many individuals called Sikligars, Vanjaras and Lobanas have been residing in huts-their living conditions have been dismal. They became Sikhs at the times of Gurus but have been deprived of education for hundreds of years. These individuals severely lack opportunities; they, however, are hardworking and industrious. They are a proud people who live with dignity. They have been struggling to discover their religious roots, from which they have been distanced with the passage of time " Please visit: http://www.nishkam.org/sikligar.html for more info on how to help Expecting a great response from our young lions and princesses. Akal Sahai Babbar Sher

great post ..keep it up .........but remember the christians are equally dangerous... The muslims have a written agenda while the christians have an unwritten one .. The sikhs I have always maintained need to be independent...not rely on crutches like using other religions, their texts to proove their own religion :-) or showing undue tolerance to ridiclous levels like like not even allowing others to shout ,..even whne are girls are the target of the muslim goons.

N30 please open ur eyes....muslims of today are not the likes of Sufis - at least not 90%. The cobra ought not to stop hissing...!!!! Noor:: They are NOT sikh boys....If a sikh girl wants to have a boy who is faithful to her and gher only, doesnt do clubbing, doesnt drink, doesnt do drugs....there is NO dearth.......but dont many sikh gals want to have 'chikna' bollywood style guys rather than a sikh true in external and internal rehat ?? Same holds true for boys. "Expect what you can deliver" Arent we hypocrites ?? And please people, try to be defenders of your own faith, rather than defending other people, all the time !!!!!!

Jamuka you have made a very good post, however I cannot agree on " . FYI, Mardana and Kabir were both Sufi Muslims. The Sufi sect for obvious reasons, is officially not recognised by the majority Sunnis although they might have been laxed with them in the past. " Both of them were sikhs - Mardana Ji was sikh of Guru Nanak Dev Ji (Bhai Mani Singh Ji's Janam Saakhi) and Kabir Ji was a saint - a sikh of Waheguru Kabir Ji was in no way a muslim -sufi or otherwise.

Its changing in the Music Videos at least. Watch Romy Gill's latest Video ...not sikhi like....., but the lead is a turbaned bearded sikh and is is shown to be the better os sir ghasiyas. ;-)

Akal Sahai PN. Excellent Post Harpreet. Can anyone please give me Punjabi Nationalist's email, as I would like to address each and very issue that he has mentioned herein in his post ? I am not saying he should not join other religions, but I am highly critical of the manner in which and the reasons for which he is moving to other religions. I am not highly appreciative of Islam, and funnily the more I interact with muslims, the more my faith in sikhi gets strengthened. We must all remember that our source always has to be Guru Granth Sahib. Just because our leaders atre corrupt, or their sons and daughters are aibi and aishi, or for that matter we cannot get the goris, or that the goris look at us with a contempt in their eyes.......these really are not reasons for giving up sikhi. I can only term them as excuses. PN: If you want to learn about sikhi, I gaurantee you a 100% that I will support you and help you learn, whatever you may want to. I will help you clear any doubts that you may have. You are free to convert to whatever religion you may want to, however, making decision before learning about anything doesnt not seem to reflect rightly. Not only will I help you support anything on sikhi and your doubts, but anythying which you my face in your personal life...having even a remote resemblance to sikhi. I have made this post so that it stands as a public committment. Lastly I belong to the Punjab ;-) so u r not the only punjabi onboard, however we are sikhs first and punjabis later.

""When are we going hunting Babbar? Unless you find that morally apprehensible? If you'd like to cast doubt on that too, perhaps you'd better read Bhai Gurdas' Varan a little closer"" Whenever you want Buddy. We could hunt down a few Wahhabis ;-) Another assumption.......Can you please clarify a bit more on the hunting aspect. I think we have common ground there. Anyway, the point is that Guru is the model for the sikh, not vice a versa. A Guru would never do something which will result in controversy later on. Please answer: Who was Guru Angad Dev Ji before he became a Guru. I think he was a sikh, as it was for the other Gurus before they became Guru. We cant simply expect that they changed the rules suddenly. In fact rules become tougher for them !!!

Bhai Vir Singh's interpretation is his own in line with british influenced Singh Sabha ideology. It coud be argued that he would state this, as it was in line with the moral values impressed upon him during his christian education. Perhaps Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha was influenced by Muslims as well as the other scholars were influenced by muslim ideology !!!! ???? . What suppositions are you making just to proove that Piara Singh Padam's work and your belief are correct !!!!! great As for Bhai Gurdas, firstly I've got it as 'ekaa' not 'eko'. You have defended your own point through implication only - where does this refer to Guru Hargobind? You have made a fundamental flaw in assuming that this section of Var 6 is talking about the required qualities of the Guru. Bhai Gurdas is stating the desired qualities of a Gursikh. I had taken the quote from a writing by Sirdar Kapur Singh Ji. I acknowledge my mistake. You talk about other people putting words in ur mouth. Now you are putting words into my mouth!! Where have I mentioned that it refers to Guru Hargobind Sahib. In fact in another post below, you youself infer it to be reffering to Guru Hargobind Sahib. I have made no fundamental flaw and dont need such judgemental statements from your end on this. Yes Var 6 talks about the qualities of a Gursikh. So what applies to the Guru doesnt apply to the sikh !!!!!! This statment perhaps seems ok if coming from your end, but definately the Gurus never thought that way. (need I remind you that Guru Gobind Singh Ji tested his sikhs when he saluted Dadu Pir's Samadh) as well as the time when Shani Daan was given......... (Sikh Gurus are not like other prophets who have a different set of rules for themselves and different for their followers) over and out ............................. Bhai Gurdas was famously suprised by the changes that took place between Guru Arjun Dev ji and Guru Hargobind ji. He was suprised by the behaviour of the new Guru which as we all know was different to the previous Gurus respectively in more ways than one. He discussed this, which eventually led to the episode of Guru Hargobind Sahib testing his humility. OK agreed. The point ?? So to clarify, i) the Var referred to is relating to qualities of a Gursikh as Bhai Gurdas himself saw it ii) Bhai Gurdas was suprised by the behaviour of Guru Hargobind Sahib. Taken together these two points further help us to discount Var 6 as a possible source for proving the Guru only had one wife. What? Just above, in your famous 'over and out' post you question and state in your own words that this Var refers to the qualities of a Gursikh. Now you say it is a possible source for proving that Guru (Hargobind Sahib) had only one wife. Bhai Gurdas Ji has clearly given the qualities of a gursikh. Bhai Gurdas Ji's Baani is Gurbani and has been given the status of understanding Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I think the verdict is very clear that a Gursikh should essentially have one wife and only one wife. What applies to a gursikh definately applies to the Guru, beacuse the Guru is the model for the sikh. In fact the standards for the Guru are much higher. The Gurus started off as sikhs and became Gurus (Guru Angad dev JI and the following Gurus). So that standard only become higher....the bar is only raised higher nor lowered. Can a teacher ask his student not to eat jagger, if he himself is eating jaggery? ;-) No over and out..I am open to discussion ;-)

I fail to understand that how, if one cannot marry a non-sikh gives rise to the question of 'equality' ? Equality can certainly mean justice and being just and not being partial to anyone, but marrying another because we believe in equality? I can belive all are equal and yet not subscribe to their beliefs. Does one have to marry another person to proove that he/she are equal in their mind? The point of discussion is the spirtual aspect of the married life...and the spirtual incompataibilty on religious practices. Going by your hypothesis, since all are equal, I could worship idols, get myself circumcised, praise prophets instead of God's , do Jehad, say that a particular prophet is the son of God, contradict myself...time and again.. but since evrything is equal and thereby--- we can assume ----- all practices are equal and equally good, one can easily make a religion of convenience after combining many. Sikhism belives in equality due to its attitude of 'Manas Ki Jaat sabe Eke...'.but Guru Maharaj also crtitices the people who are false and have false beliefs. Sikhism believes that God has made all beings equal, but by their own actions, they themselves differentiate themselves from others. If all were equal and always equal and will always remain equal in the spirtual sense, (despite our good actions or bad actions) what benefit does one drive from following sikhi and what was the purpose of Gurus preaching sikhi? Do you think Manmukh is equal to Gurmukh ?

Lalleshvari: Do not insult ANYONE without posting reliable sources. Petty insults will not be tolerated and will result in automatic deletion of your posts from now on................Who is this addressed to ?? Lalleshvari: "Polyandry is mentioned in gurbani through the example of Draupadi the virtuous wife of the Pandava brothers. She is saved by Krishna due to her devotion. Polyandry is still practiced by some Jatts today and has been for sure in the past. It is probably a surviving element of matriarchal culture in Panjab. THough seen as exceptional it was not regarded as sinful at all. Most often it was due to economical reasons: many brothers with little land marry one woman so that the family property stay within the family." Its the mention of a myth NOT Polyandry...and what does it denote......and whats the lesson ..... ??? Lets talk about Gursikhs practices not Jatts !!! In Gurbaani even myth of Ganika is mentioned as well as Ajamal.as well as various other myths....This indictaes nothing abouth the practices of the characters.....but only preaches love for God JtSingh: You answer my most 'pertinent' question by 'imagining'. This goes a long way in prooving ur point..doesnt it. You really need to answer Why Kala Afghaana is a bad person? How many of his books have you read and what are the points against him? (I am not saying he is 100% correct..but then that holds true for anyone). Who has made him a Tankhaiya....and what was the basis of making him a atankhayiya. People who worship idols go scot free and someone won understands Gurbaani is Tankhahiya ? Great ? What do you say about people who admire GurBilaas patshahi Chevin and are its editors......Well these are the very people who announced Kala Afghaana tankhayiya.. You quoted various modern scholars: I would just like to quote two: Bhai Vir singh Ji's explanation of the two marriages. Bhai Gurdas Ji's baani : eko nari jati hoe par-nari dhi bhain vakhanai --Bhai Gurdas Can you please compare these two eminent Gursikh's with the scholarly works of Piara Singh Padam and the like. Now would the Gurus violate their own principles ? The ten Gurus are models for us to follow. They would never violate their own principles. What is your stand on the marriages of Guru Hargobind Sahib and Guru Har Rai Ji ? What are the sources for these marriages? Weird that the other 7 Gurus did not marry twice, but the three did....... Someone above said...Polygamy is allowed, if male population is more....then i think we ought to legalise polyandry in punjab as the sex ratio is skewed..there are less gals than boys... Pheena: I dont know the point your are trying to highlight...about leela... Akal Sahai Babbar Sher

This topic so far seems to be classic evidence of the problem the panth is suffering from at the moment (hence the rise of people like Kala Afghana); modern Sikhs' bottom-up thinking; 'I don't agree with this, therefore Guruji definately never did it'! Firstly jt Singh...if you dont know the facts, dont slander anyone. Like you say below, dont be emotional. Provide evidence that Kaal Afghaana is a bad person. Slandering anyone without prooof is not like the sikh way. Is it because he has sytematically proved the two wife theory of Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrong ?? please, posters, try not to simply discuss issues at an emotional level...at least try to find some evidence first. refs used for the below: Kahn Singh Nabha's 'Mahan Kosh' Giani Ishar Singh Nara's 'Safarnama te Zafarnama' Dr. Ganda Singh 'Hukamnamae' Parvinder Kaur 'Kar Sewa: Historical Gurdwaras' 1) Kahn Singh Nabha (a Singh Sabhia) has three entries, for each of Guru Gobind Singh ji's wives. 2) There is historical evidence for each wife's existence such as a smadhi for Mata Jeeto, now called Gurdwara Agampur at Sri Anandpur Sahib (she is recorded to have died while Guruji was there). She was cremated by Guru ji himself. Who made these Samadhis. Please give proof that Guru Ji cremated her himself 3) Mata Sundri was the mother of Baba Ajit Singh ji. The haveli where she lived and died in Delhi is recorded in Mahan Kosh is now Gurdwara Mata Sundri ji in Delhi. 4) According to the 'Kar Sewa' and 'Hukamname' texts, both Mata Sahib Kaur and Mata Sundri issued hukamname to the Khalsa after Guruji from the haveli in Delhi. many of the Hukamname's themselves are suspect of being forged and hence they cannot be relied upon 5) Nabha's kosh records Mata Sundri as being the mother of three of the Sahibzaday, Baba Jujhar Singh ji, Baba Fateh Singh ji and Baba Joravar Singh ji. 6) Mata Sahib Kaur's samadhi is near Sri Guru Harkirshan's. Proof please. Who made the Samadhi 7) I think the author of the much copied and pasted article that started this dicussion has shown great ignorance himself by declaring that Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha and Giani Ishar Singh Nara are ignorant of Punjabi cultural practices! Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha's writings, provide us a very good insight into sikhi, however they are not above Gurmat. He even mentions the GurBilaas Patshahi Chevin and gives various definations of sikhs - Kharagdhari etc. etc. Shall we start beliveing in GurBilaas He wrote the Granth a long time after the Gurus and hence it is susceptible to mistakes. I can refer to Kala Afghaan's writings wherein he has proven the marriage aspect of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Weird how things pop up. 1st it was Guru Gobind Singh Ji's 2 wives, then Guru Hargobind Sahib's 3 wives !!! and then someone had the audacity to say Guru HarRai Ji's 8 wives .....!!!!! ?? Are you guys crazy or what ? Wah Bahi Wah Sikho .....Tusin taan din B Din sayane hunde jaa rahe ho. ....

I will clarify in detail later about the sikhi concept, however here would just like to write about Tawheed's comment on his over used and famous (lol) Law: "Quoting the law of non-Contradiction: A cannot be both A and NOT A at the same time. The above concept of Nirgun-Sargun, firstly, posses a unique dilemma in that it seems to be a clear contradiction. It is asserting that God is both Nirgun (without attributes, formless), and Sargun (with attributes, diffused in creation, with form) at the same time. " Ever heard of the dual nature of matter, dual nature of light, as well as the principle that a particle can exist at two different points at the same instant of time. You can use Google man....its easy ..even you would be able to use it, and they dont restrict Wahhabis. Guess Twaheed is K.G. Pass, Dooosri fail ;-) ..err....oops

Giani G you are cool man....:-) dont take this clean shaven stuff to your heart. I have been asked by no less than 5 girls ('sikh') to get my hair cut ....as it would make me look smarter..and more kissable ....lol (even though I was selected to be one of the first turbaned model last year) But I dont pay any attention to such gals. They are a complete turn off. Just to add in the same length, there are have been gals sikh and non-sikh who have equally admired my turbaned personality and felt that I would look incomplete without the turban. Interestingly 4 of the 5 were married to clean shaven guys ...and from my interaction, I know they are NOT happy (guess it was cause they had a very shallow and only criteria for selecting a guy). One of them was even lamenting on how girls need to look for other aspects. Anyway there are r a lot of gals .. who dont go in for such stupid criteria. And this post is meant for gals who are into sikhi, NOT some shallow, clean shaven liking girl...with no substance. We always seem to bundle these nice sikh gals with the other pseudo ones.......who seem only to like 'Dino Moeros' etc. So I made this post to give OUR gals some hallasheri. Also I think Turbaned, bearded, Amritdhaari guys need to carry themselves with more grace, more substance. They should remember that they are easily recognisable and hence their actions will have directly, bearing on the way people look at em. I hope this clarifies to Singh_47 The more desperate one becomes or something, the more that thing eludes the person. ;-)

When I meant CHANGE..it did not imply War :-)

Khalsa was Meant to Change the WORLD , NOT wait for the WORLD to CHANGE....and then enjoy the fruits. Such prophecies are nothing more than a good feeling creators. This will be, that will be. I think we need to reject such things. The muslims, christians, jews, Hindus etc. all have their own prophecies. Such prophecies are for the weak hearted and those who have a weak will power. Khalsa is a nirmal and niara panth, wherein Sant and Saipahi have been combined....let it remains so..... It is meant to make a difference, to change the world...not sit idling, waiting for things to change... Anyway the way our leaders are carrying things....2038 may be too early for this prophecy anyway ;-) hee hee Lets reject all such things and start believing in ourselves rather than taking the support of such 'crutches'. For Khalsa is the khaas roop of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. If we do so.....we will cross 960 million anyway :-0

^When I read this quote.. I thought, could it maybe mean that both the husband and wife should believe in God but not necessarily in the same way? Could the light mean belief in one God creating all mankind and seeing all ppl equally? You would spiritually connect with someone if their belief was the same as that and so was yours, regardless of religious customs. Because this is what I believe. This is how I would interpret this quote if I read it myself without anyone else's input. ============= Noor. If we were to agree with you, there would have been NO NEED for the Sikh Gurus to start a new religion…a nirmal panth. It is another thing that they did not choose the path of ridiculing other religions unnecessarily. It’s another things that did not choose the path of fighting other religions to enforce their own viewpoints. But yes they did criticize the practices of the other religion. So why did they do what they did. They did it because the religions of the yore were corrupted beyond repair. That is why they compose Guru Granth Sahib Ji during their own lifecycle. I DON’T think the explanation you have given is correct. There are now TWO ways to believe in God, cause God is one. One’s own spiritual beliefs (belief in the prophets, Gurus …whatever you may call it) may be different. Well I am not saying you cannot connect with other people having a different belief. Didn’t the Gurs connect with the Sufis. BUT then we should also wonder….the Gurus never did acknowledge Mohammed as the seal of prophets, nor did they read the kalima…… Don’t we all have muslim, hindu, Christian friends. But I believe marriage is different. It is meeting of two bodies, two minds and two souls. The action of sexual intercourse itself is one of the most fascinating action and a very unique one (I am a virgin..still..but I have read a lot ..so I think this would be true). ==================================== ^Of course religions differ. Bhaji.. I never said they didnt, if I did it was my mistake ============================ See Religions differ. Say I am married to a Hindu girl. Now as a sikh I should not make her convert to my religion, cause I should respect here religion. So every morning she does Pooja, as given in her religion. I on the other hand would do path and do vichaar of Guru Granth sahib Ji. Don you think this is where the conflict would arise. My Guru says that there is nothing like idolatry and it is completely useless and should NOT be practiced. Yet my own life and soul mate practices it. So what should I do…shall I follow what my Guru says…OR shall I follow what my heart says and not criticize her practices. Now if she stops her religious practices, she wont be a Hindu anymore. If we both stop our religious practices, we are following no religion. So there is a conflict as far as spiritual aspects are concerned. I can give you many more examples/scenarios/combinations if I have not been able to make my point. ========================== ^See thats what I love about Sikhism, that it is a unifying religion. And that is why even with the quotes provided, I dont understand why marriages between different faiths arent allowed. Sure such marriages are much more difficult than ones of the same faith, but each person should be able to have this choice, no? ========================== Yes, but can I wake up every morning to hear my muslim wife’s Kalima. For evry time she reads the kalima, I am reminded that I am a Kafir nonetheless according to her faith. What would go inside her mind, when she knows that I am a Kafir, that there is no solace for me unless I accept Islam and read the kalima. That the doors of hell will engulf me …according to her Prophet. How would she feel when I tell her that Judgment Day, a concept central to Islam, is nothing bur gibberish. That our founder criticized it ? That there are no angels……so that raise a question on the very origin of Quran, the base of Islam ?? These are very practical, introspecting question. Again If I and she ignore all this, then we are neither Muslims, nor Sikhs … as per our religion. ================================= ^Thinking all people are equal no matter what their religion, and respecting your partner's religion and being open about differences, respecting each other's views .. this would allow for both to connect spiritually, wouldnt it? ================= I think I explained above, with some examples. Yes I understand both wouldnt be able to connect spiritually with Sikhism, or the other religion, only one of them would (with the religion they are following).. but to respect another religion and have tolerance for it, isnt that a good thing? ===================== It defiantly is a good thing. Again, I think I covered the point above. ^Such things would have to be discussed before the marriage. The husband and wife would have to make their opinions known and still be able to respect the other religion. Because yes, otherwise there would be problems in the marriage regarding such things. But what about when a Sikh girl is married to a 'Sikh' guy and he turns out to be completely different after marriage, cheats on her, starts drinking etc and vice versa. Can those two connect on a spiritual level? ================================= NO. An absolute NO. But then he is NOT a sikh. Sikhism was meant to be a religion where everyone would be true to the Guru and God. Girls and guys both compromise on such things. For e.g. the ideal guy for many gals would be – choclate, cleane shaven, bollywood style guys…… And for boys would be glamorous, heroine style gals. How can you expect such people to be true to sikhi then. Noor, it is all about hypocrisy. If we give up hypocrisy while selecting a partner, I think we will get the right partner. A true amritdhari/sikh marrying a true amritdhaari/sikh wouldn’t face such problems. the problem above can also happen in intercaste, inter religion, love, arranged marriage... ^My view on this is that many 'love' marriages are not supported by parents and thus many problems result from just this. These marriages would have the same 50/50 chance if parents and society were more supportive. All we need is a little understanding amongst people. ===================================== Noor. I am not sure how old you are. But I am about 28 years old, and although It my seem like blowing my own horn and possibly you could be more experienced, I believe that the conditions in my life have cause me to learn a lot from a lot of different type of people. I have seen people madly in love (no offence …but it is more or less sexual attraction with …some other factors..like money etc,. thrown in). supported by their parents, yet tearing apart. When people come together, they only notice the positives of a person. Hence everything seems so cool. But after you have spent sometime, the negatives take over. The expectations created by the positives are not fulfilled and the marriage begins drifting apart. ^Big generalization. Not always true. Speaking for myself, its not true at all. Sometimes it is the personality which makes the appearance look good. And as they say 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder'. Its good Noor, that you have such high views. Keep em up and don’t let hypocrisy near you. However the generalization is very pertinent. Please take a look around you and you will notice. Yes. Laila was Kaali…..but Majnu told people…Teri Akh Na Dekhan waali…..your eye doesn’t know how to see her. ============================== ^Well there has to be something to like about the person for it to then develp into something more. You confuse me here. Ok looks I agree with you on, they arent of such importance. But how can personality not count? How else can you develop feelings toward someone? ======================= So the starting point is sexual attractionn and in most cases it more less culminates here. That’s all I am highlighting. You can see a beggar and feel compassion, but you wont feel love. And yet still the compassion is based on appearance in this case. ======================= Compassion to what effect? And had it been Love, then to what effect? So explain BabbarSher wrote: I think love ..and true love transcends all this ..cause if I were to analyse...one can loose mental or physical traits in a second....well even less than a second. ^Yes but there is something there that you love about that person, and then wether its there or gone, it shouldnt matter because that is still the same person. Love shouldnt change because the person loses a physical or mental trait. =============== True… BabbarSher wrote: Will LOve remain ? Yes if it is true.....cause then u love at a spirtual level and that is the level at which saints love God.... (remember u never loose the spirit). ^Completely agree with you. ^This is why I kept stating that this is not about me and some guy. That reply seemed to be personally made towards me and its ok if it is, but this question was not about me. But how is one leaving the house of God just because they are marrying a person of a different faith? If that person still believes in Sikhi, then how can you say that they are no longer a part of Sikhism? (that is what your reply implies to me, pls correct me if I am wrong) ================================== I have given above examples about myself and other girls. :-) SO I hope its all clear. The conflict is in the faith. ================================= ^Since the Khalsa was formed by Guru Gobind Singh ji... who did the other Guru jis marry? Women of what faith? No disrespect meant. ================================= It is a very wrong notion that the Khalsa was founded by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. The Khalsa was founded by Guru Nanak Dev Ji. It was formalized by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. The Gurus married people who professed the sikh faith NOT hindus or muslims. We should look at all the Gurus as a continuum and not as individuals. Sikhi is looked from this point of view becomes easier to understand. Please also refer to my other post ..by a similar name.... ^I agree. Except I believe that as long as one believes in God, the spirit can also become one with the other. Can you please tell me what the following means..because IF it means what I think it means and what I have been told that it means.... then this is exactly how I feel... "Aval Allah Noor Upaya Kudrat Ke Sab Bande, Ek Noor Te Sab Jag Upjeya, Kaun Bhalle Ko Mande" =========================== Yes, it means that all have originated from God and you cannot say that this race is bad, or this person is inferior. The pointer is towards Muslims and their concept of Momin and Kaafir I think. But I can’t relate how you give it as explanations for inter religion marriages. P.S. The Prophet Mohammed married 9 times and had two jewish slave wives. Why these two Jewish slaves were not accorded the status of wifehood, was because they did not profess Islam. So I think that clears the muslim point of view of marriage. Same goes for Jews.

""Ideal singh wrote: If Rehat Maryada says that Sikhs cannot marry a non-Sikh then whow did the sikhs marry during the times when there not many gursikhs around to marry, initially ? I am talking about the times of evolution of Sikh Panth... "" The ratio of males to females is constant unless unnatural and cruel means are used ...like female infanticide and sikhisim has been against infanticide and female infanticide. Further a person may be a non-sikh, but before marraige may profess sikhi and follow th faith thereafter. This would definately have been the case during the time of the evolution of sikhism. ..otherwise the faith could not have been propogated. On one hand Guru's have written against the concept of avtarvad and devtas' etc. , and yet the sikhs would compormise on the selection of their life partner !!! ???What kind of sikh kids can be expected if the mother is hereself not conversant in the sikhi faithor does not belive in the sikhi faith and worships stone idols ?? I find it quite weird that the sikhs today, want to question such aspects and also things like ....keeping hair was not mandatory during the times of Guru nanak Dev Ji..why should I keep it....Guru Nanak Dev Ji wore a seli topi...whats wrong withe the baseball cap....etc. Yet no one seems to note that 'Langar' was not formalised by Guru Nanak Dev Ji............so dear all.....shall we just do away with it. Guru Granth Sahib does not give any indications towards Langar .. Guru Hargobind Sahib started the concept of Dhadhi Waaran......Shall we do away with it........cause Guru Nanak Dev Ji ...did not advocate. it.... ? There is no reference to it in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Guru Gobind Singh Ji praised Bhai Kanhayia Ji...and started the concept of sikh 'red cross'...so shall we do away with it cause Guru Nanak Dev Ji didnt do it. I can find no direct refernce in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So whats the answer. I think the answer lies in the following: 1. To expect that Guru Granth Sahib Ji provide us direct answers to each and everything concering our physical lives....is not correct. Guru Mahraj will provide clear rules on the spirtual aspect and provide indicatives to us on how to lead the physical life. When the Gurus started the various practices such as Langar and Dhadhi etc., they translated the spirtaul directions into the physical aspects. Similar is the case with the Khalsa. 2. We should recognise all the Gurus as the same. If we do this we understand that it was Guru nanak Dev Ji ..who started the concept of Khalsa when he came as the first Guru and it was Guru Nanak dev Ji who formalised the Khalsa...in his 10th form. Please note that there have hardly been any controversies, when Guru Nanak Dev Ji gave up the saili topi for the turban. ...for people believe that it is the same person...yet we all have the nerve to question when Guru Nanak Dev Ji in the form of Guru Gobind Singh Ji made the Khalsa as formal. "Infernal Monk - I think Guru Nanak ji did know about Christianity and Jewism ( I could be wrong tho)" Christian Missionaries arrived in the court of jahangir...during the times of Guru Arajan Dev Ji...so most probably the Gurus knew about chritianity and jewism. There are references to 'Kateb' - which i think refers to Old or the New testament. Also Bhai Nand Lal Ji mentions Christianity in one of his writings...but adds that it doe not impress him much. Infernal Monk: You are correct, God does not have any wife, and sikhim does not belive in God having a wife.

Nice, well thought replies. I have been away fro the weekend, so should be remarking/explaining my position in a couple of days. :-)

<<Alrite BabbarSher your right, I'm wrong. Happy? >> I am really very sad , that you have taken the approach about wining and loosing. I can see that right throughout, the discussion you have had this preconcieved notion in your mind about interreligion marriages being alrite. I think you also need to define the word alrite here. If it is physical/mental context..of course it is going to be ok. The objection occurs only in case of matters of spirit, I belive. You had in your discussion mentioned, the following: "Good points? Back them up with exact quotes from Guru Granth Sahib and then others can decide if they are 'good' points or a bunch of bs." Funny thing, that we dont query the Guru Granth Sahib for other physical matters. The prime objective of Guru Granth Sahib Ji is matters of the spirit and that has been the focus throughout. Pointers have been given on other matters of importance (physical) and it has been left to the sikhs to use their intelligence to decipher these and the spirtual (with help of Bhai Gurdas Ji's writings). Funny again that despite some people including myself quoting from Guru Granth Sahib Ji, you did not agree with the views given by KS. Again as a response to my post, you said, self assumingly : "do you want a Nirgura to answer your questions" When I requested, you say you dont have the answers. I am not sure how to take this. Whether in the right spirit, or whether I have offended the beliefs of someone and they are so upset, that they find it better no to respond. Dear Young Lady......the aim of a discussion is not to declare any winners and losers or for that matter showcase the upperhand. We are not having a declamation contest here at sikhawareness.com. The moderators are not going to declare any winners or losers and neither are the people who come to makethe posts here. <<I'm not gonna sit here and keep arguing about why I believe in inter-religion marriages being alrite.>> We gave you our reasons. and we only ask you for your reasons. Belief is onething, reaons is another. Why I even have a young cousin, of mine who thinks premarital sex is perfectly ok. I m,ean this is his belief, yet he is not able to give me any valid reason whatsoever. Please let me clarify that i am not comapring you with my cousin. (perhaps I am not a good communicator, and sometimes our words, phrases, sentences can convey the wrong meaning to others) <<All I know is that I have seen them work and I believe they can/do work>> Yes at a physical level/mental level alone. If both partners are devout religious people, there are going to be conflicts. You can only follow one path, though both may lead to same destination..God. So you would say, let them.....follow different paths. OK, so that means they are not partners in the spirtual journey. I think definately contradicts this defination of husband and wife as given in Gurbani. Also, it seems a bit weird though that I am fully with the person, in matters physical and of mind, yet when I want to start y religious journey, may partner is not with me. It is ok if you dont have the answers to the questions I posed. These questions are meant for introspection (though I would have liked to hear from you on this). It is also sad that you start jumping to conclusions- you yourself say, I am a lesser sikh, I am a Nirgura, I am less religious. Really I am lost for words onw what to say on this. You seemed to be ..as they say in Punjabi ..a bit 'Chidi' hoyi. ..so cool down.. The aim of any logical discussion is to discuss and to change one's views if they fail, the test of discussion.

Umpteenth time you say it is not about you and some guy from other religion and umpteenth time we say, that we are NOT addresseing you from the point of view of ' you and some other religion guy'. Now it would be good to address the whole post which I have made, and answer the questions I have raised. I quote from Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I am not talking about your physical life. Yes, on a physical level marriages may work, for that matter marrriages may work altogether, BUT the issue addressed was the spirtual one. If your spirtual beliefs are different from your husband, then can you continue with your spirtual beliefs knowing that your husband doesnt beliEve in them. I will not raise the amrit issue, but just ask you whether you belive in Baani. If you do, you must have read Asa Di Vaar. If you have read it than what would you say, about certain muslim concepts that have been criticised. What about Bhagat Kabir Ji's Baani which criticises Circumcision and other muslim practices. What about the Baani which condemns idolatory ? What sort of relationship would be looking at in such a case, where a girl loves her husband, but doesnt share her beliefs? In effect she shares and is one with her husband mentally and physically BUT Not spirtually, because this does not gel with the defination of Husband and wife as given in the baani of Guru Amar Dass Ji. So the crux is that such marriages work mentally and physically not at a spirtual level. And to a sikh spirtuality is more important and he strives to meet his Husband..Waheguru. And if the husband and wife are one at a spirtual level, the spirtual journey can be a bliss and easy to tread upon, otherwise, there will be conflicts always. yes, I want you to answer the questions which I have raised.

Well to be frank, now that I think about it, the whole point of this discussion is funny. Noor asked us a question, Is it wrong to marry a non-sikh? Question is why did she ask it..was it because of a doubt in her mind, on the correctness of the action or as it because she wanted to know the views if the people here. In either case, we have made know our views and I believe that should suffice. I dont also understand why Noor is now admant on saying again and again that marrying a non-sikh for a sikh is all right. Well Noor, simply put, if you think it is OK, it is Ok , BUT only in your eyes or in the eyes of likeminded people. But really it is funny that if something like inter religion was so right, why any of our sikh ancestors never married aoutside the religion. Anyway just a point to ponder.... I am not trying to convince you, but since you started the discussion, it would be worthwhile to provide the other viewpoints as well. Can I ask you some question...ok What is the purpose of the life of a sikh ? Secondly who do you think is a sikh? Thirdly if ony Love is required to reach God, what is the need of a Guru...........what is the need to eb a sikh,................and why did Guru Ji start sikhism ...................? Now as far as the respone to y post goes, my answers are as follows: You say that you stand by what you say. Good. But can you please answer the issues and the possible solutions to what I said in my post? ^If the other person thinks just as you do, then where would the problem arise? <<either a person's beliefs are religious or they are aethistical? Please clarify this statement. A muslim (whatever anyone may say). cannot say on the one hand La Ilaaha....and on the other hand bow before Guru Granth Sahib Ji......The person would be contradicitnghim/herself (on the point of Mohammed being the last prophet) So can you please clarify? what the similarity in thoughts is all about ?? >> And any that do, can be taken care of. Life is filled with problems and difficulties, do we back down from them? In one way or another we have to face them. <,I understand that all problems can be taken care of. Now if you can just give me some possible fix to the problem samples given, that would be great. It would help the cause of all people with interreligion marriages> (Done give me the obvious answer ..that Love can transcend all barriers) ^ Love can. Love between a Boy and Gal on the true level is hard to find, as I have stressed. How many Heer Ranjha's can u make me count in the billions that live today ?? Afterall isnt it love for God that makes a Sikh able to stand up against any thing? That kind of love is hard to find these days. As far as that kind of love between two individuals is concerned, society's rules and demands has or eventually does kill it, but then again that just implies that it was weak to begin with. <Thats what I am syaing. First True Love isnt weak. If it is weak, it never was true. So if it wasnt true, it is not worth the effort, NOR can it help you overcome the problems, cause it never was true. NOTE: You are NOT a Nirgura if you belive in Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the other Gurus. You are on the path of sikhi. My defination of a sikh is person who is evolving and it stands. Basically a sikh would be a person, who is a keshadhari, has belief in all the eleven Gurus, does not follow Bipran Ki reet (Brahmnical karam kaands, idoltaory etc.) and who is willing to become an amritdhaari (that is a person who is who is progressing towards amrit), reads, understands and practices baani in his life, meditates on Lord. (all of these have to hold true...you cant take one out and keep the other). If one does as above, he/she is a sikh. If one does not qualify as above, they are a sikh - in a socialogical sense. But doesnt mean they are outcast, as long as they are willing to admit their mistakes and revert back to sikhi. For e.g. there are many young ones, who may become monas, because of peer pressure, grlfriends, boy friends whatever...etc. but I wouldnt kick them out of our religion. These people need to know about what they really are and why they should revert back. They need love, NOT rebuke. If they dont want to even learn or evolve, anytime in the future they are more like bats - neither here nor there , and I dont think they would qualify as sikhs. BabbarSher - Quote: Can I ask you some question...ok What is the purpose of the life of a sikh ? Secondly who do you think is a sikh? Thirdly if ony Love is required to reach God, what is the need of a Guru...........what is the need to eb a sikh,................and why did Guru Ji start sikhism ...................? Yes I want your answer on this issue, as I want your answrs on what has been addressed in my post. Lets not play 'golmol'...I also asked you for some solutions as well. It would be good to hear from you on the same as well.